COLLECTIVE MADNESS


“Soft despotism is a term coined by Alexis de Tocqueville describing the state into which a country overrun by "a network of small complicated rules" might degrade. Soft despotism is different from despotism (also called 'hard despotism') in the sense that it is not obvious to the people."

Monday, December 11, 2006

2164th's Assessment - Iraq, War & Islam



2164th, aka Deuce, posted this comment on the previous thread. He should have saved it for a full post especially since he will be distracted with other business for a while. Personally, I think it deserves a rerun.




In the previous thread, at the end of the discussion, there was speculation about what went wrong in Iraq. It is worth a look because there were some very insightful comments. The question is a good one and unfortunately there is a lot to choose from. It is a question that is more than academic.

One of the shibboleths of the Iraq war was that "we need to stop them there" and the counter argument was " Iraq would be an incubator for jihadis everywhere." The latter argument seems to have been more right than the former. That is becoming more obvious in Afghanistan.

Whit, The same NYT article contains this. Consider the implications:

"...The Afghan intelligence service said last week in a statement that it had captured an Afghan suicide bomber wearing a vest filled with explosives. The man reportedly said he had been given the task by the head of a religious school in the Pakistani tribal region of Bajaur, and that 500 to 600 students there were being prepared to fight jihad and be suicide bombers.

The bomber said that the former head of Pakistani intelligence, Gen. Hamid Gul, was financing and supporting the project, according to the statement, though the claim is impossible to verify. Pakistani intelligence agencies have long nurtured militants in the tribal areas to pressure the rival government in Afghanistan, though the government claims to have ceased its support.

So numerous are the recruits that a tribal leader in southern Afghanistan, who did not want to be named because of the threat of suicide bombers, relayed an account of how one would-be suicide bomber was sent home and told to wait his turn because there were many in line ahead of him."...
And add this to the things to worry about:

..."The fundamentalists’ influence is seeping outward, with propaganda being spread on private radio stations, and through a widening network of religious schools and the distribution of CDs and DVDs. It can now be felt in neighboring tribal departments and the settled areas of the North-West Frontier Province. In recent months, Pakistani newspapers have reported incidents of music and barber shops being closed, television sets burned and girls’ schools threatened.

The militants are more powerful than the military and the local tribal police, kill with impunity and shield criminals and fugitives. Local journalists say people blame the militants for a rising tide of kidnappings, killings, robberies and even rapes."...
Let us return to the speculation about where things went wrong in Iraq. I will offer a few thoughts of my own and am interested in yours:

It is obvious is that without law and order nothing else is possible. The highest priority in any Muslim country and especially Iraq should be to maintain law and order. The moment that weakens or breaks, militias or Islamists will seek and gain control by any means. Law and order should trump everything else. That order must come from within the country.

Our concern should be that instability not be exported. We should not be breaking things to fix them the way we want them. That will not work and is not in Iraq.

Democracy imposed, is impossible. There is no yearning for democracy by the majority. They do not understand what it means or how to practice it. To them everything is negotiation to gain power with the intention of never giving it back after it is attained. Regardless of the intentions, bringing democracy to the Muslim world is a fool's errand. Democracy is no panacea. It is none of our business.

The religion of Islam is the heart of the problem. It is a cult and we make the mistake thinking it should be given equal respect and held equivalent to Christianity. The mistake is that in the Western Democracies we separate religion from secular life. Christianity allows that. We even quote something that most believe to be in the constitution, "the separation of church and state." That is impossible with Islam. Islam does not allow that. All life and society becomes part of Islam. If they pretend that it is possible, that is only a feint for the Islamists to gain control and create an Islamic state.

We should no more tolerate Islam in the West than we did Communism during the fifties. The European countries that did allow the Communist Party to participate put their societies at peril.

The implications of the Iraq War are many. Go to war to destroy your enemy. Destroy them completely and leave. If that is not your intention, then do not go to war. If Islam is as I believe it is, incompatible with the West, leave them alone.

For those Muslims already here, require them to conform to our standards and culture. Demand that they discard all practices that offend our ideas and practices including all forms of discrimination against woman. Remove their tax exempt status and if they are unhappy with that, invite them, encourage them, and then demand of them that they leave. We will all be happier and safer.

If we do not have the courage to do that, we will forfeit our civilization. It will only be a matter of time. Islam is at war with itself. That is unfortunate, but it is their problem to solve. George Bush made a mistake going into Iraq to transform their society. He had a right and obligation to remove the threat of nuclear or chemical weapons. He made a colossal blunder obligating the US to the mission impossible of changing their society.

76 comments:

  1. "For those Muslims already here, require them to conform to our standards and culture"
    ---
    Tony and Cherie Blair are starting to do just that.
    I always took issue with those that said we'd wake up before them since we aren't as deeply asleep.
    I disagree:
    ROP
    Bin Laden Clan given safe passage
    Money to Azatlan Invaders
    Kid Gloves with CAIR
    Leaving Clinton Traitors in Place
    Libby
    Karen Hughes
    Leaving Baby Doc untouched, forfeiting the best opportunity we'll ever have to save Lebanon.
    On and on.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Deuce said:
    It is obvious is that without law and order nothing else is possible. The highest priority in any Muslim country and especially Iraq should be to maintain law and order. The moment that weakens or breaks, militias or Islamists will seek and gain control by any means. Law and order should trump everything else. That order must come from within the country.

    As I said in the previous post, Nature abhors a vacuum and so do the Islamists. But the fact is that man kind cannot live in the chaos that the Sunnis, the Baathists, al-Qaeda, the Sadrists and the criminal element have created in Iraq. They will opt for whomever can bring peace and stability. Democracy and freedom mean are forgotten when survival is foremost in the mind.

    The Taliban brought a sense of security and order to Afghanistan after the Russians left and were accepted by ordinary people who learned to live within the Taliban rules.

    People anywhere will give up as much freedom as is necessary to assure day to day survival.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Doug:
    I'll believe Tony Blair is doing that when I see it. So far, I haven't seen anything out of the British except platitudes. That talked tough for a couple of days after 7/7 but that's all it was...talk.

    In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if the democracy project wasn't a Blair instigation...

    ReplyDelete
  4. Whit said, "People anywhere will give up as much freedom as is necessary to assure day to day survival."

    "The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."

    --Benjamin Franklin

    ReplyDelete
  5. Deuce said:
    If Islam is as I believe it is, incompatible with the West, leave them alone.

    The problem is, they will not leave us alone. Since 1979, the Iranians have been shaking their fists at us. Hezbollah has been actively at war with us since 1982. See the Camera timeline.

    Al-Qaeda turn up the heat with the first WTC bombing, the embassy bombings, the Cole bombing and finally 9/11.

    We tried to leave them alone but they wouldn't let us.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Whit said, "For those Muslims already here, require them to conform to our standards and culture."

    Just two questions: 1) What shall we put down as our standards and culture when we write the law requiring American Muslims to conform to our standards and culture? 2) How will this law survive a First Amendment challenge?

    ReplyDelete
  7. Whit,

    At least the Blairs talk about it!
    Karen Hughes is still paid to Hug Muzzies, and all we hear is ROP.

    Cherie and the Irish Lady even criticised The Saudis while in the Devil's Den.

    I'll give proper Credit when ANY Bush matches that.

    ReplyDelete
  8. WC:
    Go to a mosque of hate,
    get a free ticket to Medina!

    ReplyDelete
  9. Run a Mosque of Hate.
    Never see the light of day.

    ReplyDelete
  10. WC:
    Whit didn't say that, Deuce did. But societies have a way of shaming others into conformance or shunning them. As things become more uncomfortable, people conform or leave.

    Simplistic but...

    ReplyDelete
  11. Senegal to distribute 250 Million Jatropha seedlings.



    the initiative would result in a whopping prodution of 375 billion liters of biofuel per year, or 6.46 million barrels of oil equivalent per day.

    ReplyDelete
  12. This is Senegal.

    Big old place, ain't it?

    ReplyDelete
  13. BTW, that 6.46 Million Barrels/Day?

    That's 1/3 of all the oil we use, approx.

    That new Jack field down in the Gulf? 1/2 million b/d.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Now the GOP Is For Affirmative Action?
    Abandoning principle may not even be smart politics

    Ten years ago, the historic passage of California’s Proposition 209 banning racial preferences in public contracting and university admissions seemed to promise that colorblind government would soon prevail nationwide. Today, though, affirmative action remains on the books almost everywhere in America. Those who’ve kept preferences alive include the usual coalition of left-wing activists, a strongly pro-affirmative-action media, business and civic groups anxious to avoid charges of racism, and, hardly least, judges who haven’t hesitated to give their own political views the force of law. But what’s arguably hurt the anti-preferences drive most has been the desertion of its formerly best ally:
    the Republican Party.

    Nowhere has this Republican desertion been starker than in Michigan, where an almost exact replica of Prop. 209, mandating that the state “shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color or ethnicity, or national origin” is on this fall’s ballot. Led by its candidates for governor and U.S. Senator, the state GOP has emphatically distanced itself from the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative.

    Not only has GOP opposition enabled pro-affirmative-action forces to cast those fighting quotas as ideological pariahs, so far out of the mainstream (and, by implication, so tainted by racist bigotry) that not even Republicans want anything to do with them; it also has severely hampered the MCRI’s fund-raising efforts, with many would-be contributors reluctant to cross the party leadership. “I can’t tell you how many people have whispered in my ear, ‘I’m with you, but I can’t say anything publicly,’ ” confides a frustrated Jennifer Gratz, the MCRI’s executive director and the former lead plaintiff in a landmark affirmative-action lawsuit against the University of Michigan. “There’s just this fear of standing up and doing the right thing.”

    Even more disheartening, the Republican backtracking on preferences in Michigan reflects a quiet but steady shift in the national party, too, with the Bush administration undercutting affirmative-action foes—longtime GOP supporters—by embracing the “diversity” mantra that liberals so fervently preach.

    The contrast with the GOP’s principled recent past is striking. At his first press conference after assuming office in 1981, President Ronald Reagan noted that many affirmative-action programs had become rigid quotas, adding: “I’m old enough to remember when quotas existed in the U.S. for the purpose of discrimination, and I don’t want to see that happen again.” Reagan’s assistant attorney general for civil rights, the combative William Bradford Reynolds, echoed the anti-preferences view
    ----
    But whatever the result—and voters notoriously lie to pollsters on issues involving race—the party’s role in the contest is something many thoughtful Republicans will regard with sorrow. If the MCRI loses, it will demonstrate yet again the damage done by the party’s flight from principle; if it wins, it will stand as even more evidence that the GOP is on the wrong side not only of its base, but of history.

    It truly makes you yearn for a return of leaders like Ronald Reagan or Pete Wilson,” says Connerly of recent events in Michigan. “People who knew what they believed and weren’t afraid to act on their beliefs. You really have to wonder where people like that have gone.”

    ReplyDelete
  15. Yet even with this, and Ward Connerly old and having suffered ill health recently MCRI WON convincingly! In MICHIGAN!

    Bush's constant assaults on conservatism and conservatives have done more to splinter the GOP than any Dem.
    As I said, Calif saw this all played out before, 15 years ago:
    Look where the GOP is there now!

    ReplyDelete
  16. WC...your 6:25 quote of BF is always a good one..well done

    One of my other favorites is, "Honey, stop at the next inn so we can have a grog"

    Actually when Adams, Jefferson and BF were all in Paris at the same time TJ and JA noticed that BF liked to hang out with the mauvaises filles (bad girls)and was rather slovenly in his dress.
    But the French really liked the old rake.

    ReplyDelete
  17. "The French really liked the old rake." There's a letter from TJ to some kid going out in the world; says ol' BF hardly ever got in an argument with anyone, nice old duffer, take a feather out of his cap, was TJ's advice, avoid arguments, you never convince anyone of what they don't want to believe, anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  18. We didn't have any plans for the occupation or a possible resistance.

    ReplyDelete
  19. "For preference foes, the Supreme Court battle was a disappointment in another crucial respect: it signaled the Bush administration’s abandonment of the cause. True, the administration, acting ostensibly on behalf of Gratz and the others unfairly denied admission to the university, submitted two amicus curiae briefs to the court, arguing that the University of Michigan’s quota-based admissions system was “plainly unconstitutional.” But the briefs also provided key fodder for the other side by agreeing that “diversity,” that vague feel-good catchall that liberals have enshrined as a primary good, “is an important and entirely legitimate government objective.”

    As journalist Christopher Caldwell noted at the time, “The Bush memos are the most important substantive defense of affirmative action ever issued by a sitting president. If the Court accepts the president’s reasoning, it will have rescued affirmative action from what appeared to be a terminal constitutional illogic. More than that—it will have secured for this rickety program an indefinite constitutional legitimacy.” Caldwell proved prescient, the administration’s “diversity” argument being precisely the one that Justice Sandra Day O’Connor cited for her pivotal vote in the 5–4 decision. “Effective participation by members of all racial and ethnic groups in the civil life of our nation is essential if the dream of one nation, indivisible, is to be realized,” O’Connor declared, writing for the majority.

    Opinion divides on the anti-preferences side about who bears the greatest responsibility for the administration’s revised affirmative-action stance. According to Terrence Pell, lead attorney for the Center for Individual Rights, which represented the plaintiffs in the U-M cases, “We’d been assured the Justice Department was going to take a strong position that diversity was not a compelling interest and that [then–solicitor general] Ted Olson’s shop had already written a brief taking on the diversity rationale. But this started a huge fight and [White House counsel] Alberto Gonzales put his foot down and forced the change in direction.
    "
    ---
    What's the Big Problem here?
    If your a (liberal) Mexican, Marching in a parade sponsored by Commies and the ACLU for Illegal Rights is a PATRIOTIC ACT!

    ReplyDelete
  20. Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy

    BJ

    I'll bet he got alot of BJ too.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Bobalharb, I do believe that is saged advice..but we have a deeper story to tell. One of predation of a natural ecosystem NOT shown on the map:

    Invader species in Argentina: a review about the beaver (Castor canadensis) population situation on Tierra del Fuego ecosystem.
    Intorduced in 1946 they have no natural enemies and are devistating the ecosystem. I saw thars gold in them pelts...bring back the beaver hat! AND AIDS in beavers is unknown...remarkable

    ReplyDelete
  22. Sam..lets hope he didn't get BF'd...

    Yes few know that his Parisian nickname was Barf'n Ben.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Yes, Habu. No BF's for BF.

    BJ...what a blooper. I've got Jenna on my mind.

    ReplyDelete
  24. I've always liked beaver, but I don't know about 'super-sized' ones, which might be a bit too much of a good thing. Rascals are causing the fisheries to decline. Haven't they ever heard of a gun, or are they still using those little spears down there in Fuego?

    ReplyDelete
  25. Yes. Beavers are a good thing. Can never have too much.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Woolsey's keynote speech at the event was quite interesting. His hobby horse du jour appears to be energy independence and he is quite convincing on the subject. Without it, he indicates, we will continue to be the primary subsidizers of the Islamofascist terrorism which is bent on destroying us. The former DCI is not, however, a great advocate of hydrogen because of the immense costs in building a new infrastructure. He favors the use of grasses, a cheaper and more immediate method. Once we make a public commitment to energy independence, he thinks the Saudis, Mullahs, etc., will panic and begin to mend their ways. I think that's more than worth a shot. Where are our politicians?

    ReplyDelete
  27. By the way, if you are a smoker, you no longer need feel so guilty.

    "Genetic Polymorphism of CYP2A6 Gene and Tobacco induced Lung Cancer Risk in Male Smokers"

    Seems it's genetic, like most things.

    CYP2A6--I used to smoke like a chimney, now I have a 'guilt-patch'.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Our standard is the constitution. Their standard is sharia. They are treasonous. Kick em out.

    ReplyDelete
  29. I like to smoke--cigs, cigars, and a chaw, too, if around non-smokers who fret. Glad to know it's genetic, I've been concerned that it is a character flaw.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Next, bourbon ain't my fault, either?

    ReplyDelete
  31. No, Buddy. That's JB's fault.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Fault? That's your "Saving Grace," Buddy!

    ReplyDelete
  33. i agree. and if they'd quit building those convenience stores, i wouldn't hafta rob them

    ReplyDelete
  34. Partisan divides on many issues are essential in a vibrant democracy; so too are seeking compromise and consensus on pressing matters that split a country.

    The Iraq Study Group should rarely be replicated; more often, however, it should be emulated.


    Don't Replicate

    ReplyDelete
  35. sam, there must be something wrong with my eyes, i read the link, and it made no sense, it was authentic gibberish--WTF?

    ReplyDelete
  36. genetics , hmmmm better change from Habu to Stallion......don't worry it's just a gag.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Buddy, he just used alot of words to say the ISG report was too little, too late.

    ReplyDelete
  38. thanks sam--those mozzarella & tomato on rye samwiches had blorred my vision, i guess. digestion now proceeding apace, I shall return to it and try again. Albert Hunt at least usually reads right, if thinks wrong.

    Genetics, right here on instapundit. see why immune systems quit. need more frolicing t cells or something like that.

    ReplyDelete
  39. stallion, you say, habu--Sly Stallone has made a new Rocky--with himself in the ring, fighting--and he's like 60 or right at it. Probably works out, tho.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Usually, if the football coach doesn't live up to expectations, the university fires him, not the other way round. Dennis Erickson, who got his early start at U of Idaho, then after many a moon came back here this season, posted a losing record, and showed his loyalty by slipping town with the money, to Arizona State for the coming year. The dirty dirty rat.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Famous as the "spread" offense man. Innovator.

    ReplyDelete
  42. "Every Monday, I wake up and think I have an idea of how big this is," says John Pierce, vice-president for bio-based technology at Dupont. "By the end of the day, I have to recalibrate upward." (from rufus link)

    ReplyDelete
  43. Here's another one.

    The reason I put this link up (besides the pretty picture,) is I think I'm seeing something else here that I haven't thought about before.

    Every one of these tropical countries that are moving into biofuels are utilizing a lot of "small" holder participation. Instead of employing 40 or 50 American farmers this project is expected to employ 5,000 small agricultural workers. All of these third world projects are the same.

    This is going to open up huge new markets for our exports.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Better yet, Buddy. Rambo IV, I believe, is out next year.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Buddy,

    Did I lose you already? ;-)

    Check your email when you get a minute...

    Triton

    ReplyDelete
  46. Islam needs to have its symbols of superiority put out of existence.

    These include:

    ) Its territorial expanse dissolved.
    ) Its followers forcibly re-educated.
    ) Its places of history politic and culture erased.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Now he needs to display a different kind of courage. He has to take into his own hands the fate of Iraq and make his own decisions about what needs to be done.

    Of course, he should listen to all his advisers. But he must also know that his advisers, both civilian and military, have been failing him for the past three years.


    Up to Bush

    ReplyDelete
  48. "He had a right and obligation to remove the threat of nuclear or chemical weapons. He made a colossal blunder obligating the US to the mission impossible of changing their society."

    The intrinsic problems of their society are unrelated to the threats of nuclear and chemical weapons?

    ReplyDelete
  49. "He had a right and obligation to remove the threat of nuclear or chemical weapons. He made a colossal blunder obligating the US to the mission impossible of changing their society."

    The intrinsic problems of their society are unrelated to the threats of nuclear and chemical weapons?

    ReplyDelete
  50. A club in Rotterdam is planning a dance floor which produces electricity from the movement of the dancers. Hey, Rufus, we older guys can rave our way out of these problems.:)

    ReplyDelete
  51. 'Hundreds of Thousands of Iraqis To Seek Refugee Status in the United States' Jihad Watch, Dec. 11,2006

    Grrr. Let in the Christians and the Jews, if any.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Bobalharb,

    The governments gonna give us a choice
    1. accept thousands of Iraqi's

    or

    2. be forced to listen to RAP music all day

    ReplyDelete
  53. RUFUS

    PUTIN TAKES OVER SHELL OIL IN RUSSIA

    ReplyDelete
  54. LETTERS TO THE OPTIMIST
    Dear Optimist:

    Recently, my wife left me for another man. Not only that, the other man was bigger, better-looking, and richer than me, and—at least according to my wife—better-endowed and with a nicer singing voice and less back hair. To tell the truth, I am feeling somewhat “pessimistic” about this situation. Advice?

    Depressed Because My Penis Is Smaller, Relative to That of My Wife’s New and More Handsome Lover

    Brighton, Mich.

    Dear Small-Penis:

    Why not try to look on the bright side! At least he is not more articulate than you—

    ReplyDelete
  55. Dear Optimist:

    I am an emaciated single mother living in a vast famine-affected region with my four starving children. Rebels frequently sweep down from the hills with automatic weapons and kill many of us and violate and abuse the others. All our men are dead or have been driven away, and there is no food or fresh water to be had. I would be very appreciative of any advice you might be able to offer us.

    Not Altogether Hopeful

    Africa

    Dear Hopeful:

    Thanks so much for writing! Perhaps it would be of some consolation for me to tell you what a vast minority you are in! There are, relative to the world’s population, very few people “in your boat”! Most of the rest of us are not starving or in danger, and, in fact, many of us do not even know that you are starving and in danger, and are just out here leading rich, rewarding lives, having all kinds of fun! Does that help? I hope so! And remember—trouble can’t last forever! Soon, I expect, your difficulties will be over!

    ReplyDelete
  56. "RUFUS
    PUTIN TAKES OVER SHELL OIL IN RUSSIA
    "
    ---
    USA Counters by becoming Energy Independent Farming
    OIL SHELLS.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Dear Optimist:

    I am feeling so great! I have totally internalized all the wonderful things you’ve taught over the years, via your column! I am just so excited!

    Thrilled to Be Alive, Never Felt Better

    Chicago, Ill.

    Dear Thrilled:

    Super! Did you have a question!

    Dear Optimist:

    No, not really!

    Dear Thrilled:

    Then what the heck! What is the name of this column? Is it “Make a Statement to the Optimist”? Is it “Come Up in Here and Act All Like Mr. Perfect”? Is it—

    Dear Optimist:

    No problem! I totally respect what you’re saying! Many apologies and I hope you have a great day! You know, actually, I am going to go sit quietly somewhere and think about what I’ve done, so that if I did in fact do something wrong I won’t, in the future, repeat my mistake!

    Thrilled

    Dear Thrilled:

    Jeez, what an asshole! Well, that’s about all the space we have, so—

    ReplyDelete
  58. Hey, Whit:
    Many thanks for talking me into Firefox.
    Just started this evening, and already feel more at home than I have since Netscape 2.0.
    ie7 is a real hog, this is lots faster and more helpful with passwords, etc.
    Do a post on Firefox tricks!

    ReplyDelete
  59. PS
    I lost 7-1/2 pounds in one evening also!

    ReplyDelete
  60. Dear Optimist--

    I've been dancing on this damned rolling floor for days, have sweated till I'm dry, have thrown up my shrimp and chips, can't stand the smell, my girl has left me for an Iraqi who don't dance and the lights are going dim.
    What do I do?

    Optimist--

    Think of all the weight you've lost, and how good it feels to be single again.


    Note to Rufus--Wasn't making that up about the dance floor, read it at a green site.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Only at the EB can a post about our host's assessment of I,W&I lead to comments about Ben Franklin, Jenna Jamison, biofuel, genetics, penis envy, rocky and weight loss.....

    ReplyDelete
  62. Nice map.

    Notice the ratio of dark green to light green.

    What side are we on in the ME? Why, I do believe it's the dark green side.

    Did we pick a winner?

    ReplyDelete
  63. Joe Buzz wrote, "Only at the EB can a post about our host's assessment of I,W&I lead to comments about Ben Franklin, Jenna Jamison, biofuel, genetics, penis envy, rocky and weight loss....."

    Too bad it's a workday or there'd be time for some lesbian topics mixed in there.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Those lesbians, always the wise cracks.

    ReplyDelete
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