“Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.” - George W. Bush

All The Best


I want to thank everyone who participated in the Elephant Bar over the past twelve years. We had millions of visitors from all around the World and you were part of it. Over the past dozen years, two or three times a night, I would open my laptop and some of you were always there. I will miss that.

My plans are to continue my work with technology and architecture. You know my interests and thoughts.

At times, things would get a little rough in the EB. To those of you that I may have offended over the years, I apologize. From all of you, I learned and grew.

An elephant never forgets.
Be well.

Deuce, 21 June 2018

Monday, June 11, 2007

"We hate al-Qaeda, but at the same time we don't like the Americans"

Tribal Coalition in Anbar Said to Be Crumbling
U.S.-Backed Group Has Fought Al-Qaeda in Iraq
By Joshua Partlow and John Ward Anderson

Washington Post Foreign Service

Monday, June 11, 2007

BAGHDAD, June 10 -- A tribal coalition formed to oppose the extremist group al-Qaeda in Iraq, a development that U.S. officials say has reduced violence in Iraq's troubled Anbar province, is beginning to splinter, according to an Anbar tribal leader and a U.S. military official familiar with tribal politics.

In an interview in his Baghdad office, Ali Hatem Ali Suleiman, 35, a leader of the Dulaim confederation, the largest tribal organization in Anbar, said that the Anbar Salvation Council would be dissolved because of growing internal dissatisfaction over its cooperation with U.S. soldiers and the behavior of the council's most prominent member, Abdul Sattar Abu Risha. Suleiman called Abu Risha a "traitor" who "sells his beliefs, his religion and his people for money."

Marines conduct a security patrol in Anbar province, where U.S. forces have has cooperated closely with the tribal Anbar Salvation Council. (By Joe Raedle -- Getty Images)

Abu Risha, who enjoys the support of U.S. military commanders, denied the allegations and said the council is not at risk of breaking apart. "There is no such thing going on," he said in a telephone interview from Jordan.

Lt. Col. Richard D. Welch, a U.S. military official who works closely with the tribal leaders in Iraq, said that relations inside the group were strained and that he expected a complete overhaul of the coalition in coming days.

U.S. military leaders hailed the creation of the nearly nine-month-old Anbar Salvation Council, first known as the Awakening, as one of the most important developments in the four-year war, signaling that insurgents and the local population in Anbar, which is overwhelmingly Sunni, have begun to see al-Qaeda in Iraq as their worst enemy, rather than the United States and its allies.

Since the tribes began working with U.S. forces to resist al-Qaeda in Iraq -- and since they began receiving significant amounts of weapons and vehicles -- violence in the province and deaths of U.S. soldiers there have fallen dramatically.

But the divisions within the coalition underscore what many see as a central dilemma: Should the United States be sponsoring profit-oriented tribal groups that involve themselves in sometimes fragile alliances and that could turn against U.S. troops?

"The question with a group like this always is, does it stay bought?" said Anthony H. Cordesman, a military analyst at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, referring to suggestions that the United States is paying for loyalty from the tribes.

Although backing the tribal coalition looks like "the least bad option" under the current circumstances, he said, "The key is, what can the Iraqi government offer them over time, and is it enough for them to stay with the bargain?"

Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. military commander in Iraq, has disputed the notion that U.S. forces were buying the loyalty of the tribes, saying that they opposed al-Qaeda in Iraq on ideological grounds and noting that many tribal leaders had been killed by the extremist group.

"I think they've done this for their lives," Petraeus said during a recent briefing on Anbar. "This is not just a business deal they've struck. When you oppose al-Qaeda, you are putting it all on the line. This is not an economic issue." more here


  1. ---
    U.S. Arming Sunnis in Iraq to Battle Old Qaeda Allies
    Commanders are arming groups that have promised to fight militants who have been their allies in the past.
    Iraq’s Parliament Leaders Agree to Remove Speaker
    Go to Complete Coverage »

  2. 'Rat,
    How do you think the developing socialist nightmare can be avoided in this Nirvana of the Americas you've been talking about?

    Looks like part and parcel to me.

  3. Hard to say, doug.

    To even attempt a serious discussion of it puts one outside the "mainstream".

    As allen said, he first read of the Illuninati at age 12. Dismissed as fantasy, the product of a conspiracy of story tellers, which the Iluminati could well be.

    The Skull & Boners, the One Worlders & the TriLaterals, they do exist, they are no fantasy.

    IBEC did exist, pops worked for them, been to the Rockefeller Estate, swam in the pools, walked the gardens, as a little kid and young adult, last time, freshman year of high school.

    The One Worlders have been with US since the beginning, they helped to build the US, one brick at a time. Intertwined in a symbiotic embrace, the two are one and the same.

    To manipulate, at least make the attempt, entire cultures and economies in an effort to meet their own ends, not even given a second thought.

    Do you oppose the inalienable rights of man? Do not believe them to be universal? All men were endowed by their Creator ...

    What kind of an American are you, to reject the Declaration of Independence and it's core values?

    What kind of American are you, do you reject even God?
    You secularist, you! As well as a xenophobe.

    You're out of step, you Tory
    Mr Bush worries for your soul, with cause?
    Are you an Enemy of both the State and God?

    Hard to have a discussion, with such as those who believe you are.

  4. I'll tell you what, doug, yesterday we went to the Wrigley Mansion for Sunday brunch. Little girl is turning 16, thought that a vailid occasion for celebration.

    Grampa and Gradma rat came down for the free meal. At 75 he's been doing family tree research, at the Mormon Genological library, in Mesa, AZ.

    Seems that one of our forebears was a delegate at the first Electoral College. The only man there to vote against Mr Washington, for President.

    Struck me as funny, laughed 'til the tears rolled down my cheeks.

    Geneticly linked out of steppers, I guess.

  5. Battles that span the generations.

    Whether one knows it before hand, or not.

    George was a brick layer, proud of it.

  6. Regardless of Mexico, the Boners or Mohammed himself.

    I'll tell you one thing.

    In the coming primaries and election, if the memory of 9-11-01 is etched in your mind, if there is a need for vengeance in your soul, there is only one canidate to support.

    A Roman with a Vendeta.
    A personal score to settle.

    G is for Vengeance, better believe it.

    War or Retreat

  7. Previous comment about George:
    So was the guy that built the Watts Towers.
    Only recently learned that, and now I've forgotten the details, but will look up.

  8. Comment about Rudy:
    You still gotta convince me (and Trish) about that Nationbuilding thing.

  9. Rudy knows how to do things right.
    Can Nationbuilding in the ME be done right?

  10. Even some folks at Flares talk about the elites...

    At 9:22 PM, June 10, 2007, Skookumchuk said...
    Probably. The more extreme the Western PC multi-culti relativism, the more I think that this will be seen in the future as a type of cultish and highly damaging behavior by elites, like in the years immediately following the French Revolution.

    At 10:02 PM, June 10, 2007, chuck said...
    ...like in the years immediately following the French Revolution.

    You mean folks like Danton, Marat, Saint-Just, Robespierre, Talleyrand... I think that is to be expected, though, the elites fight for power and influence and the peasants and workers serve as foot soldiers. I think something of the sort also takes place in the US: the Kennedys, the Rockefellers, the Bushes, Gore, Dean, Kerry, Oliver Stone, Sulzberger... all ambitious sons of privilege.

    Did you know Tallyrand spent time in the US from 1794-1796?

    He was the house guest of Senator Aaron Burr of New York. Talleyrand years later refused the same generosity to Burr because Talleyrand had been friends with Alexander Hamilton.

  11. The Mormons, the Latter Day Sainters, they have your history, if you're a mind to disconer it.
    Aall the way back, a data base that boggles the mind, all to save the anscesters souls.

    Or so I'm told was the motivation, to documentation.

  12. This comment has been removed by the author.

  13. Perhaps he is a bit off the reservation on that item, as well, doug.

    It matters little, given the choices and the consequences.

    What has Mr Thompson ever run?
    His simularities to Mr Reagan not advantagous, for Mr Thompson, in that regard.

    Mr Reagan had been an Actor & Governor of California.
    Mr Thompson, an Actor.

    Who better than a Roman to achieve some pre-Medi-evil justice?

  14. Who else carries a vendetta, doug?

    Who else, amongst the candidate has the images of thw Twin Towers seared in his soul?

    Which went to the funerals of the fallen firemen, police officers and citizens?

    Who else do you trust to

  15. Have you and I spent the past four years discussing abortion, gun control or gay marriage?

    Has that been the reason for the commeradery here at the Bar. No, I think not.

    Secondary interests for me.
    The "Agenda"

    Let's kill some mussulmen in Warizfuckinstan.

    Only a Roman will send the Legions, Air, Sea or Land, as required.

    Who else has a blood debt to be collected, amongst the select effete presented as options?

  16. Bush Doctrine dictates that democracies and republics vote for peace.

    We'll see if he is right, here at home.

  17. Miller likes to recall that Rudy went to 800 funerals before O'Reilly or someone called Hillary on her ZERO score, and she started making token appearance.

  18. Blood debt, amigo.
    Do want to collect, or write it off?

    Easier to write it off then collect. May cost more to collect than they owe.

    But the debtor still lives in the hills, back in the woods. Clanish folk back there, won't be easy, regardless.

  19. ".I'll see you at the bill signing.""
    With our 50 Caliber Desert Eagle Cap Gun Replicas.

  20. Rudy, the only realistic prospect upon whom to project my hopes.

    Best of the rest, from my perspectives of priorities.

  21. ""The fact that he's coming to the Hill is kind of dramatic and shows his dedication to this issue," Sen. Mel Martinez, R-Fla., told USA TODAY on Sunday. Martinez, who also serves as general chairman of the Republican National Committee, acknowledged that the immigration stalemate threatens to drive a wedge between his party and Hispanic voters."
    Yeah, just like California:
    Shoot up the joint, blame the victims.

  22. Guys gonna be insufferable for the next year and a half, Trish!

  23. Also on Friday, Bush held phone consultations with the Senate's top GOP leaders, all supporters of the bill. Bush called McConnell, Sens. Trent Lott, R-Miss., and Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., from Air Force One as he headed from Poland to Rome. Later, Bush told reporters he had discussed immigration Saturday with Pope Benedict XVI.
    Trent Lott, Man for the New Millenium.

  24. So the Pope is gonna call us UnPatriotic Americans now?

  25. How many times at the BC, doug, were we told this immigration thing was a non-issue.

    Of little import to the future of the War on Terror or the Bush Presidency.

    Now Immigration is in the process of derailing both, the Bush Administration and along with it, the War on Terror.

    Worry not, Sir George will soldier on. Even if only Barney, either his dog or his TV friend, is left standing shoulder to shoulder with him the day he leaves the White House.

  26. What we can do, doug, with that old account.

    We don't write it off, damn the shareholders would be pissed to hear that. So no, we keep it on the books, let it age.

    Tell the shareholders we're trying to collect it. In Kabul or Baghdad, far from where the debtor is. Goin' after his assets, his agents we'll tell 'em.

    Doesn't even cover the interest, what we collect from them, though.

    We just let that debt age, they'll write it off, later, after we're retired. We're short now, anyway.

  27. Where does the Pope stand on the issue of "Inalienable Rights, granted by the Creator"?

    Anyone know?

  28. "Guys gonna be insufferable for the next year and a half, Trish!"

    And this is new?

  29. DR: Bush Doctrine dictates that democracies and republics vote for peace.

    That's precisely the problem: "dictates"

  30. I vote we have an inalienable right to Edible Plastic.

  31. Continetti at the Weekly Standard:

    "Giuliani is just beginning to assemble policy advisory groups in the areas of health care, energy, Iraq, and the Middle East. Former Indianapolis mayor Stephen Goldsmith and Stanford economist Michael Boskin are key domestic policy advisers, while Harvard's Stephen P. Rosen and Yale's Charles Hill handle foreign policy."

    Now's a good time to google Rosen and Hill for past works. I've started on the former.

    Who're Clinton's foreign policy advisers? Now's a good time to check them out, too.

    "In the coming primaries and election, if the memory of 9-11-01 is etched in your mind, if there is a need for vengeance in your soul, there is only one canidate to support.

    A Roman with a Vendeta.
    A personal score to settle.

    G is for Vengeance, better believe it."

    As one commenter put it, Rudy sees himself as the Mayor of 9/11, who would like to be President of 9/11. And there's a difference between that and "a personal score to settle," which he's not thus far given any indication of, nor likely will he.

    Better nation building for the 21st century, for instance, is a big step in the same old direction, pleasing to the Kagans and Donnellys of the world, but leaving trish ready write a check to Ron Paul.

  32. There you go, trish, perspectives of priorities.

    As I said, my personal projections upon Rudy, for he has not breathed a word of vendetta. Nor do I think he will.

    Mr Paul, another fellow that is fun to watch. If he's still on the list, during the AZ primary, I'll vote for Rudy.

    With hope in the power of Ancestral Genetics.

  33. Ah finally I can untie the string from my finger. Miss T, Professor Ward from the UofW, an environmental man, said on a radio program one night, that sometimes one can see pollution from China in the Seattle area. I have my doots about that, knowing how cloudy and hazy it is there most of the time. Maybe if one was up in a plane. Have you ever seen anything you might identigy as pollution from China in the area? I mean in the air of course, not at Wal-Mart. Nice you're back.

    jeez I was thinking you were a Mormon there for a second rat, but a secular one...

  34. Mormon White Horse ProphecyRat, Mitt might be your man. Man on a White Horse in the White House, something like that. Best check it out. Never heard of it before.

  35. The Mormon otherworld is a rather worldly place. Things go on much as before in a way. Only purer. There is a place for farmers in the Mormon other world, thankfully. Ah, those weedless fields of forever....a little like the Shinto other world, I think.

    If pressed, I can back this opinion up with quotes, thogh it would take me a long time to find them:)

  36. No Jack Mormon, I, bob.

    Read some of the Book, to placate a girl I was seeing, in Show Low, AZ. Years and years ago, now.

    Mr Flake's country, up there in the White Mountains.

    But no, no holy or blessed underwear, for me.

  37. As i recall, bob, the Latter Dayers were baptizing the long departed, to improve their lot in the otherworld. All with the best of intentions and purest of heart.

    As they were busily baptiszing Holocaust victims, some Jewish groups became aware of this good deed the Saints were performing and complained.
    Demanded the Saints stop saving those departed Jewish souls.

    Affronted, the Jewish were. Perplexed were the Saints, who did cease the practice of baptizing previously Jewish souls. I think, at least publicly.

  38. posthumous redemtion

    quite a concept, really.

    does not even require a "Death Bed" conversion.

  39. Yes, T, welcome back.

    A scientific survey of my Republican neighbors (there are no Democrats to survey) indicates that Romney will be the GOP nominee, whether they like him or not.

    My mother, no Republican she, maintains that a Mormon can neither be nominated or elected.

  40. Mark Twain did quite a number on the Mormons in "Roughing It." Hilarious and eye-opening.

    The Foreign Service and intelligence organizations are, unsurprisingly, full of them.

  41. Plenty of Mormons among interrogators, too. A full third of my own class were, making for an awfully interesting mix with another third, who were exceptionally crusty Marine NCOs.

  42. The only thing I ever noticed about them were that they preferred beer to coffee. Seemed reasonable to me.

  43. I guess if my Daddy had been a Mormon, I'd a been a Mormon. Turns out he was part cherokee, and part Irish. Maybe he SHOULD have been a Mormon.

  44. "The only thing I ever noticed about them were that they preferred beer to coffee."

    I've never seen a Mormon drink. And certainly not the ones straight out of BYU.

    They are, though, very *mild* creatures.

  45. I did know a couple of reprobates that would drink a beer, but still had never gotten the coffee "habit." I think they were maybe, kind of, of the "lapsed" kind, or something.

    I guess I was always just a bit nonplussed about the coffee thing.

  46. Giuliani, and Thompson are the favorites If they can Hold Up through the long primary campaign and convention. However, they're both getting a bit long in the tooth, they've both had cancer, and Thompson could have loved work a bit more, and Giuliani "women" a bit less.

    Romney seems to do pretty well when the voters get to know him. And, he has the time, and money, to acquaint himself with quite a few voters. I think I'll bet on Romney.

  47. Of course, there is one thing I'd like some info on; What is this "Sacrred Underwear," thing?

  48. In some denominations of the Latter Day Saint movement, the temple garment (or the Garment of the Holy Priesthood, or informally, the garment or garments) is a set of sacred underclothing worn by adult adherents who have taken part in a ritual ceremony known as washing and anointing ordinance, usually in a temple as part of the Endowment ceremony. In modern times, the temple garment is worn primarily by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) along with several small religious groups who broke from the LDS Church. Adherents consider them to be sacred and therefore may be offended by public discussion of the garments. Anti-Mormon activists have publicly displayed or defaced temple garments to show their opposition to the LDS Church.

    The garment is thought to symbolize the "coats of skins" which Jehovah (Yahweh) made for Adam and Eve before casting them out of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:21). It is worn, in part, to remind adherents that they have made special oaths and covenants to God. Members of the LDS Church today are commonly clothed in the garments, together with outer temple clothing, for burial. The garment is believed to be a spiritual "shield and protection" against the powers of evil (and against physical harm, according to some adherents).

    Wiki at it's best.

    Some of the truer believers wear them 24/7, or so it is rumored, never having checked the veracity of those claims, myself.

    Can be taken to extremes, and has.

  49. hmmm, Sounds "Quaint." My mother would approve. She told me to always wear clean undies. Most especially to Church, I'd suppose.

  50. "...the Garment of the Holy Priesthood, or informally, the garment or garments..."

    Ah. What the rest of us would call lucky underwear.

  51. More than clean, for often they are not. Blessed, is the word.

    Ceremony involved for each pair that are approved.

    Just another thing.

    Add to that the Warren Jeffs prosecutions coming up in AZ, where the Dem Gov and AG will not holdback the MSM investigation into that Mormon sect.

    It could get nasty, what with Warren's 20 or so wives all claiming the right not to testify, against their husband and Prophet.

  52. So, if I meet a Mormon I can reasonably expect him/her to be washed, wearing clean underwear, and sober. That don't sound too bad to me.

  53. Just another hijacking of an upstanding religion.

    Then the other 9-11 Massacre movie, that'll be on broadcast, by the time of the '08 election.

    Mormon Massacre
    By Robert D. Novak
    CNSNews.com Commentary
    May 03, 2007

    Opening in theaters Friday, a motion picture called "September Dawn" depicts a brutal American massacre that has been forgotten. On Sept. 11, 1857, in Utah Territory, Mormons slaughtered more than 120 California-bound settlers from Arkansas. Retelling at this time the 9/11 carnage of 150 years ago does not help Mormon Mitt Romney's presidential campaign.

    The basic facts about the Mountain Meadows Massacre are not in dispute. Mormons mobilized Paiute Indians, accompanied by Mormons disguised as Indians, to attack a peaceful wagon train. The settlers beat off the attack but were left short of food and ammunition. They disarmed themselves at the request of Mormons who said they would lead them to safety but instead turned on the settlers, murdering every man, woman and child above the age of 8. All that is in doubt historically is whether this was ordered by Brigham Young, president of the Mormon Church and territorial governor of Utah.

  54. When focus groupers hear Mitt Romney proclaim in that quite effective voice, "I Believe in a Benevolent GOD, and that Jesus Christ is my "Personal Saviour," the lines go Straight UP, and, literally, "Off the Chart."

    Did I mention that Bob's wife thinks he's the cat's pajamas?

  55. Some folk don't change that underwear often, rufus.

    They're special.
    Blessed, not to be washed, casually.
    Week at a time, for commoners.

    May well be fees involved for getting them aprroved, above and beyond the tithe.

    We can be sure Mr Romney has pleny of fresh pairs, close a hand.

    Nothing evil, seems to me, just a bit off-center.

  56. This comment has been removed by the author.

  57. I do not disagree, rufus.

    Mr Romney is quite presentable and articulate.

    Mormons are easily portrayed as cultists, very easily. The ravages of a hostile campaign against the Saints can be easily imagined.

    See the beginnings of it, now. The attacks will begin to cascade soon enough. HBO's Big Love will be renewed and the focus shifted, to the bigimists religion. Watch and see it happen.

    They'll smear the Mormons, from the Christian Right to the atheist Left.

    Some of the tenents of Mormonism are pretty strange.

    Will Mr Romney be asked to describe how Christ's visits to North America, after the crucifiction, have enhanced his faith ine Creator.

    That the lightness of a person's skin denoted his closeness to Christ? That teaching may have been modified, by the Prophet, though.

  58. The Swift boating of the Latter Day Saints.

    Not to hard to imagine or foresee.

  59. Something like 25% of Americans say they'd never vote for a Mormon. I wonder, though, how many of those are like me and wouldn't know a Mormon if he/she kicked him in the ass, and, really, isn't all that interested.

    I guess we'll see what we'll see.

  60. I attended an April 11 screening of the movie at the Motion Picture Association of America headquarters in Washington, hosted by its lead actor: Academy Award-winner Jon Voight (who plays a fictional Mormon bishop). A conservative, he said this was no hit against Romney. "I didn't even know he was running when we began this," Voight told viewers after the screening. But he said this terrible story is important considering America's war against terrorists.

    Indeed, Brigham Young-played by the British actor Terence Stamp-is portrayed in the film as a -century Osama bin Laden. Calling himself a "second Muhammad," he insists on the "shedding of blood" by "gentiles." He is seen fighting the United States, which was sending federal troops to Utah.

    The church always has accepted Young's plea that he had nothing to do with the Mountain Meadows Massacre. But Voight is certain that he did, based on research for the movie. "If any miserable scoundrels come here, cut their throats," Young said in his "Blood Atonement Sermon" (which concluded that he would not fight "unless they come upon us and compel us"). The movie's researchers found in the church archives a generic threat against interlopers: "I will loose the Indians on them, and I will slit their throats from ear to ear."

    From the Novak piece

    Sounds a bit like Mohammed and Osama, both, old Brigham did.

    Won't be hard.

  61. People that don't like you will always find SOME REASON not to buy from you. People that DO like you will always find some reason go along.

  62. 45% say they'll never vote for Ms Clinton, hasn't kept her out of the running.

  63. In a lifetime of dealing with people I've never known Christians to let their faith get in the way of making a buck, or of buying what they wanted. If it was an "inordinately" expensive sweetie-pie they might sing a little louder come Sunday.

  64. Mitt Romney
    Mormon Moderate
    American Conservative

    Could play in Dixi and the Bible Belt, maybe.

  65. Good looking man, positive reputation, good talker, smart enough to tell the people what they want to hear, enough money to arrange for them to hear it.

    Good looking family, no scandals - it looks like, Believes in Jesus Christ, no record of having personally raided any wagon trains.

    I think he's got a shot.

  66. All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the "elect" have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy, such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle -- keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously engraved plates of copper, which he declared he found under a stone in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason.

    The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel -- half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern -- which was about every sentence or two -- he ladled in a few such scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left it out, his Bible would have been a pamphlet.

    [Then follow many experts, and more comment, confirming the above.]

    The Mormon Bible is rather stupid and tiresome to read, but there is nothing vicious in its teachings. Its code of morals is unobjectionable -- it is 'smouched' from the New Testament and no credit given.

    Mark Twain,
    Roughing It

  67. Brigham Young declared the Sovereign Nation of Utah and himself, Sovereign of that.

    For a time, armed gangs of moral enforcers roamed the territory, dispatching sinners (or suspect "foreigners," but they were largely one and the same) with some vigor.

    Those Mormons were something, back in the day.

  68. Tom Green sat in a Provo, Utah, courtroom defending himself against a charge of polygamy because he has five wives and 25 children. At the core of Green's defense was that part of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees the "free exercise" of religion. Our Founding Fathers wrote it in response to religious persecution that had plagued Europe for centuries and from which their ancestors had escaped. The case's importance transcends the question of polygamy's place in 21st-century America.

    Green's prosecution -- some say persecution -- has its roots in the infamous 19th-century case of Reynolds v. United States. Utah was not yet a state, but merely a territory. Congress had enacted the Anti-polygamy Act in 1862 (Ch. 126, 12 Stat. 501).

    George Reynolds, a devout Mormon, had discharged his religious duty -- under Mormon law it was not an option, but his duty -- by entering into a bigamous marriage. Having thus rendered unto God, Reynolds was indicted, tried and convicted by Caesar.

    Reynolds appealed from the Supreme Court of the Territory of Utah to the Supreme Court of the United States, whose opinion reeks of blatant racism. For example: "Polygamy has always been odious among the Northern and Western Nations of Europe and, until the establishment of the Mormon Church, was almost exclusively a feature of the life of Asiatic and African people."

    In this assertion the Supreme Court ignored the sad facts that Europeans hardly had been paragons of religious toleration and that their political systems never possessed anything even approaching our First Amendment. Moreover, the Supreme Court dismissed out-of-hand a practice accepted by every major religion save Christianity.

    The federal prosecutors argued that the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment protected only "belief" not "conduct" -- a specious distinction for at least two reasons. First, textually the constitutional guarantee is of religious "exercise," not belief. Second, a "belief-conduct" dichotomy is indefensible, not only because belief and conduct often are inseparable, but because conduct, expression and exercise are integral to all major religions. Indeed, carried to its logical extreme, a "belief-conduct" dichotomy would permit government to outlaw virtually all religious conduct, including baptisms, sacraments, bar mitzvahs, circumcisions and perhaps even ceremonial weddings.

    They'll tear him to pieces, no matter how closely he holds his religous beliefs to his chest.

    Like a Christian to the lions.

  69. I've given up trying to figure out logic and Wretch in the same sentence:
    Check out his Kosovo thread and please tell me if he is really saying
    (and if he's being serious)

    BDS Means whatever the Dems say about Poor George is ALWAYS Wrong.

  70. Killing for God
    Ervil LeBaron Story

    Court TV, Smoking Gun/August 15, 2006
    By Julia Scheeres

    Ervil LeBaron grimaced as he looked down at the body of his pregnant daughter in the trunk of his car. Rebecca's neck was chafed raw from the rope her killers had used to strangle her, and a stream of blood had dripped from her nose onto the mat under her head. He slammed the trunk shut.

    The green-and-white Ford LTD was new, and it was the spiffiest car Ervil had ever owned. Not only had his daughter's blood soiled his precious car, it was also an indication of sloppy work by the murderers -- whom he'd contracted.

    "That's inexcusable!" he roared at his goons. "It's just stupidity. We can't have any more of it."

    Ervil LeBaron had his daughter killed because God told him to do it. God had told the fundamentalist Mormon to do a lot of peculiar things over the years, and Ervil always obeyed without question.

    When the Almighty commanded him to "be fruitful and multiply," Ervil took 13 wives and sired over 50 children.

    When God told Ervil to kill, he did that too. His followers slashed a bloody trail across Mexico and the American Southwest that left 25 to 30 people dead. Among the victims were Ervil's wives, his brother, former members of his church, leaders of rival polygamous clans, and his 17-year-old pregnant daughter Becky.

    Even after Ervil LeBaron died in a jail cell in 1981, the violence didn't stop. He left behind a long hit list, and his children picked up his bloody mantle, hunting down their father's enemies far and wide and eliminating them.

  71. Rufus,
    I think "Sacred Underwear" has something to do with the special rigs the Astronauts wear when they don't have the luxuries of the Space Station at hand.

  72. ...after they've been used a few times.

  73. Maybe Evrvil was really a Muslim using "Mormon" as a cover?

  74. No, doug, he is saying that Mr Bush has to travel to a 70% mussulman country to find applause.
    He is saying that East-West power struggles are paramount to Mr Bush and Company, not the clash with mussulman culture.

    I'm just not sure if he understands that, yet, though.

  75. I dunno, Rat. Kennedy weathered much the same thing. First time for everything.

    Sunday, January 29, 2006
    Poll: Mormons, non-Mormons split on issues
    The Associated Press

    SALT LAKE CITY -- Utah's Mormons and non-Mormons are at nearly opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the war in Iraq, teaching evolution and banning support clubs for homosexuals in public schools.

    A poll commissioned by The Salt Lake Tribune shows stark contrasts between how members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and nonmembers view several high-profile issues.

    The sharpest difference is on the war in Iraq, with 73 percent of Utah Mormons saying they support President Bush's handling of the conflict, while just 30 percent of non-Mormons do.

    Unlike most other major U.S. religions, the LDS Church has taken no official stance on the war. Nonetheless, support among Mormons remains high.


    I can't find the article that I was looking for, summarizing a poll of a few weeks ago wherein Mormons support the war in Iraq at a far higher rate than Christians (2nd place) and Jews (3rd place).

    But I haven't yet come across a substantive foreign policy speech from Romney.

  76. Hey, Ms T,
    I missed you:
    We were sposed to arrange lunch out here:
    I was gonna have my Son Provide Entertainment w/his Flip Minstral Show!
    Tell us about your trip!

  77. One good thing for me Trish:
    The Romans never conquered MY Ancestors!

  78. Only because it wasn't worth it, doug.

    A long way from no where.

    Not like Warizistan.

    The edge of Alexander's trek.

  79. If Romney accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour doesn't that make him a "Christian?"

  80. "You're out of step, you Tory
    Mr Bush worries for your soul, with cause?
    Are you an Enemy of both the State and God?

    Hard to have a discussion, with such as those who believe you are.
    Yeah, like Buddy Larsen -
    The Sinless Texans vs the Evil Ervil Tories.

  81. Like you and me, right, Ruf?

  82. The wall, 'Rat,
    That and the Stiffness of our Sinews!

  83. I'm really hoping, just in case he does get elected, that he's a bit more "righteous" than me.

  84. Of the Latter Day Saints, rufus.

    A different Christ, an expanded model, from the one you know.

    New trials and tribulations, here in the Americas, with a lost tribe of Jews.

    But yes, he is a type of Christian.

    Different and current Prophets of God, as ell. An actual Prophet still lives amongst US, in Salt Lake, I think they say.

    The concept of modern revelation is at the heart of what makes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints so different from other established Christian churches. For many, it is a troubling, even appalling concept. How could there be any prophets after Christ, the final revelation? How could there be any revelation beyond what is in the Bible? Why do we need modern prophets and apostles? Aren't we adding to the word of God if we admit the possibility of modern revelation? Aren't we being deceived by a false prophet? The doctrine of continued guidance and revelation from living prophets is not only Biblical, but it is vitally important for our time - a time when we need direct counsel from God just as much as the people did in the time of Moses, Noah, Peter, or Paul.
    On the other hand, even divinely called prophets are still mortal human being subject to all manner of errors. God does not take over a prophets brain. Revelation from God may be a rare event, not a steady stream of direction on every trivial matter. As we learn from the Bible, prophets and apostles of Jesus Christ can make mistakes, commit sins, have silly arguments, be deceived by others, and so forth. To expect that every act and every utterance of a prophet will be infallibly correct and ideal is to demand far too much.

    More than I want to know about it.

  85. Holy Underwear

    Holy Underwear


  86. RICHMOND, Va. (Associated Press) -- The Bush administration cannot use new anti-terrorism laws to keep U.S. residents locked up indefinitely without charging them, a divided federal appeals court said Monday.

    The ruling was a harsh rebuke of one of the central tools the administration believes it has to combat terror.

    "To sanction such presidential authority to order the military to seize and indefinitely detain civilians, even if the President calls them 'enemy combatants,' would have disastrous consequences for the constitution _ and the country," the court panel said.

    In the 2-1 decision, the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals panel found that the federal Military Commissions Act doesn't strip Ali al-Marri, a legal U.S. resident, of his constitutional rights to challenge his accusers in court. It ruled the government must allow al-Marri to be released from military detention.

    The government intends to ask the full 4th Circuit to hear the case, Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said.

  87. This reads good to me, but I've become so overwhelmed with BDS that I'm sceptical:

    Immigration Judges Often Picked Based On GOP Ties

    - The Bush administration increasingly emphasized partisan political ties over expertise in recent years in selecting the judges who decide the fate of hundreds of thousands of immigrants, despite laws that preclude such considerations, according to an analysis by The Washington Post.

  88. Okay, that's enough for me. If he wants to believe the "Magicman" sits on that cloud over there instead of the one over here he's got my permission. And, if he's going to wear "Magic-Lucky" Underwear I'll trust him to keep them clean.

    Let's talk about Fred's Wife; that's more fun. Especially if anyone has pictures.

  89. Jeff Sessions up next:


  90. WASHINGTON (Associated Press) -- Home care workers are not entitled to overtime pay under federal law, the Supreme Court ruled Monday, a setback for a growing labor force of more than 1 million people.

    The unanimous decision came in the case of Evelyn Coke, a 73-year-old retiree who spent more than two decades helping the ill and the elderly and is now in failing health herself.

    The Labor Department did not exceed its authority when it excluded home care workers from overtime protection and "courts should defer to the department's rule," Justice Stephen Breyer wrote, relieving employers and angering workers' rights groups.

    The Bush administration opposed Coke's challenge to the Labor Department's 1975 regulation. A new administration should rewrite it to give workers the protection they deserve, said the Service Employees International Union, which represents hundreds of thousands of workers in that industry.

    The Clinton administration had drafted a regulation to cover the workers, but the rule was shelved after President Bush took office in 2001.

    Home care aides are the key to the independent life senior citizens want, but lack of adequate pay is fueling turnover rates of 40 to 60 percent annually, the employees' union says.

    Government lawyers told the Supreme Court in April that the goal is ensuring that the elderly who most need home care service receive it "at a reasonable cost."

    GWBush, creating more jobs that "documented Americans" won't do

  91. Jeff:
    "Not sure most Senators want to go back to that killing field."

  92. "Even Bill Cristol knows it's a BAD BILL."


  94. It is Comprehensive!

    Comprehensive Failure.

  95. They'll bring that POS back in two weeks; and, it'll probably pass.

    We need to get busy on the RECALLS, Right Now! Comeon Dudes, Get Busy!

  96. Modestly on topic

    ___ “Col. Hunt: Dave, making general in today’s military is more about briefings, degrees, looking good and having the right jobs and knowing almost zero about fighting. Abizaid was always considered smart … too bad he was not considered a fighter, since that is what we need in Iraq.”

    ___ “Col. Hunt: Man, are you on target — the last Vietnam guy with any combat has just left. Eldon Bargswell a former SSG with SOG, who won the DCS and they never gave him a Division. This new "star" being talked about Patreaus that allegedly wrote the new counter insurgency manual, is light on combat experience — care to guess why a new counter insurgency manual had to be written? Because the Army discontinued the original version and would not consult with the Special Forces experts at Fort Bragg for help.”



  97. This comment has been removed by the author.

  98. LAREDO, Texas (Associated Press) --Three National Guardsmen assigned to the Texas-Mexico border were accused of running an immigrant smuggling ring after 24 immigrants were found inside a van one of them was driving, the U.S. Attorney said Monday.

    The three, arrested late Thursday and Friday, were arraigned Monday on the federal charge of conspiring to transport illegal immigrants.

    Pfc. Jose Rodrigo Torres, 26, and Sgt. Julio Cesar Pacheco, 25, both of Laredo, and Sgt. Clarence Hodge Jr., 36, of Fort Worth were arrested near Laredo.

    A Border Patrol agent found 24 illegal immigrants inside a van Torres was driving along Interstate 35 near Cotulla, Texas, about 68 miles north of the border, the U.S. attorney's office said. Torres was in uniform at the time of his arrest Thursday.

    Prosecutors accused Hodge of helping Torres pass through a Border Patrol checkpoint on the highway by making it look like the two were conducting Guard business.

    Both are assigned to Operation Jump Start, President Bush's initiative to place Guard at the border to help local and federal authorities with immigration enforcement. All the soldiers volunteer for the border initiative.

    Pacheco was accused of recruiting soldiers to transport the migrants for $1,000 to $3,500 a trip. He and Hodge were arrested Friday.

  99. Thanks, allen. But I've never been a fan of the slingshot, nor the hairless male torso, both of which scream gay.

  100. duece, do you know the back story on this house in Tambor?

  101. What's wrong with this Area?


    25 k!
    Says "On the Atlantic side, away from Crime, Traffic, etc."

  102. rab said...
    Albania is 75% agnostic. The other 25% is spread among several religions.

    6/11/2007 04:00:00 PM

    ricpic said...
    The Western death wish continues.
    Always liked old ricpic

  103. I don't know how I missed it this morning:

    "Let's kill some mussulmen in Warizfuckinstan."

    Never heard that one. Asscrackistan, yes. Wazirfuckinstan, no.

    I'll tell you what, Rat: You get Rudy to say this, I'll vote for Rudy.

  104. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  105. Trish: Thanks, allen. But I've never been a fan of the slingshot, nor the hairless male torso, both of which scream gay.

    They derived the title for the movie "300" by calculating how gay it was on a scale from one to ten.

  106. This comment has been removed by the author.

  107. Nothing wrong with it, doug, far from the coast, up near the volcanos.

    Then that's the house construction costs, gotta buy the lot, to build the house on.
    700 sq ft, $36 per foot, damned inexpensive, for around here.

    Easy living, pura vida.

  108. Greek, Ms T, you know the Greeks, or not.

  109. That's my desert projection system working, trish.

    I just KNOW it.

    Because I want to believe it.

  110. Rufus: Okay, that's enough for me. If he wants to believe the "Magicman" sits on that cloud over there instead of the one over here he's got my permission.

    "I feel God's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God, I'm gonna do it." (GW Bush, June 2003)

  111. They derived the title for the movie "300" by calculating how gay it was on a scale from one to ten.

    - T

    I do think you're right.

  112. Hey, T:
    Where did you go out here?

  113. Wretch:
    Rusty Shackleford says the Taliban continues to operate its websites out of a service headquartered in Atlanta. Shackleford has emailed to alert them and hopes they take notice soon. "Most companies suspend the accounts of terrorists when brought to their attention. Good business practices dictate that no company ought to help facilitate terrorism, and most firms are more than willing to take down websites which help the jihadi cause."

  114. Hedgecock had a sub teacher talking about an all day every day segregated, all girls, all Muslim PUBLIC SCHOOL in San Diego.
    Lock the doors pull the shades point to Mecca to pray as prescribed.
    A Stink is begining to be raised.

  115. trish said...

    They derived the title for the movie "300" by calculating how gay it was on a scale from one to ten.

    - T

    I do think you're right.

    Mon Jun 11, 09:07:00 PM EDT
    Doug said...

    Hey, T:
    Where did you go out here?

    Mon Jun 11, 09:19:00 PM EDT
    Gay means joyous. As in "make a joyful noise unto the Lord."

    Then you can hear the pin drop or the other shoe fall.

  116. I remember when Internet Haganah hit some turbulence in its one-man take-down campaign of jihadist websites. An unnamed government agency - FBI, I guess - wasn't pleased. They came to some kind of an agreement.

    (Rusty Shackleford, BTW, is the favored pseudonym of a black- helicopter-type, conspiracy mongering paranoid bug exterminator in the animated series King of the Hill.)

  117. Here you go. Give the heretics a FAIR hearing.

  118. Doug: Where did you go out here?

    Philippines. Like a good tomboy I swam there.

  119. trish,

    You don't have to be a mare to appreciate the look of a good stud.

    For those in the know, which side is favored by the mane?

  120. Rat, tango mar is a sweet beach. that looks like a fine smart buy to me.

  121. More than I care to know, about that, bob.

  122. It's been available for a while now, 60-90 days, anyway.

    Gonna have to spend a long tour down through there, later than first hoped but soon enough.

  123. Brother Rat, thou cans't not know too much concerning righteousness and truth.

  124. bob is going to read and digest that and provide us the executive summary in the morning.

  125. Dear Bretheren gathered here together, and sistas too...

    You'd ex e cute me, if I tried that, Trish

  126. "You don't have to be a mare to appreciate the look of a good stud."


    Gotta picture of Lee Marvin?

  127. Just boil it all down to five paragraphs or fewer, bob. We'll all be the wiser for it.

  128. It's Inalienable Rights of Man that the desert rat is concerned with, God's revolution, not his history of evolution.

    Inalienable Rights
    Those are all that matters to him

    Across the Americas.
    We need to document all the Americans, North, South & Central.

    In the pursuit of property.
    Pole to Pole.

  129. Ok, Trish, Here it is. Bruce McConkie, five down, you too can become a God, just as Yahweh was once a man.

  130. It's a round trip ticket on a merry go round.

  131. Bretheren, and sistas too--

    "The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same."

    Bretheren, and sistas, I do not mock, I have always liked that idea, optimistic squared as it is. Certainly gives one something to shoot for. Behold! The time is now. Awake!

  132. Doug said...

    I've given up trying to figure out logic and Wretch in the same sentence:
    The Phillipines is to Saudi Arabia as Mexico is to the USA. That cuts a dozen or so different ways. There is little chance for instance that the Filipinos in Saudi Arabia will ever be granted citizenship. Not in a country where much of the diseases are genetically linked. On the other hand their relative success ie the money they send home -- has highlighted the failures of the elites in the Phillipines. There's a powerful push me pull ya in the lands gulliver traveled..

  133. It is not time to mock, nor belittle.

    No indeed.

    Time to embrace Man's Inalienable Rights, across the Americas, then the World.

    Fulfilling our dominion, as the US so richly deserves, in the Lords name, of course.
    Be joyous, be gay!

    Vote Republican Values
    Vote Foley!

  134. Another case arose when George Stephanopoulos of ABC News asked Mr. Romney about a Mormon teaching that Jesus will come to the United States when he returns to reign on earth. Mr. Romney responded that the Messiah will return to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, “the same as the other Christian tradition.”

    Mr. Grover said some of his radio listeners were astounded.

    “They were just in disbelief, saying that’s not true, Jesus is coming back to Missouri,” Mr. Grover said. “It’s the L.D.S. Church’s 10th article of faith that Zion will be built upon the American continent.”

    While Mormons tend to be conservative on social issues, Mr. Romney has taken some positions that are more conservative than those of his own church.

  135. by the way, a very belated welcome to Panama Ed. Thanks for your service in Iraq and participation here at the EB.

  136. Bruce McConkie states that God became a God by being saved by obedience to laws
    “The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same.” (McConkie, Bruce R. A New Witness for the Articles of Faith. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1985. p. 64)
    “Man and God are of the same race, and it is within the power of righteous man to become like his Father, that is to become a holy Man, a Man of Holiness.” (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 465-466)
    “This Holy Man, the Father of us all, who reigns supreme and is a saved being , ordained and established a plan of salvation so that his Firstborn and all his spirit children might advance and progress, become like him, have all power, know all things, live in the family unit, having eternal increase of their own – or in other words, that they might gain for themselves immortality and eternal life.” (A New Witness, p. 704)

    Well. There it is.

  137. “They were just in disbelief, saying that’s not true, Jesus is coming back to Missouri,” Mr. Grover said.

    And he's going to start a musical revue in Branson.

  138. "By the power of God I translated the Book of Mormon from hieroglyphics,-(the golden plates)-the knowledge of which was lost to the world, in which wonderful event I stood alone, an unlearned youth, to combat the worldly wisdom and multiplied ignorance of eighteen centuries, with a new revelation." Jopseph Smith

    He doesn't ascribe to himself or take any credit for it for himself, this uprush from his unconscious and conscious creative centers. They trekked west to Utah, leaving Joe behind like Moses, meeting little resistance, not many Cannanites in the way, thank goodness.

  139. Vote Foley!

    Holy Moly Foley
    umm are these kin of Mo Larry and Curly.
    How many chucks could a wood chuck chuck
    you say potato
    oh never mind.
    I disagree. I don't think hillary is electable. not after what happened in france. Except if the pubbies have nothing to show but mud in your eye. I think Hillary does have more mud.

  140. You're right, bob. It is supremely optimistic. That's just the word that came to mind.

  141. That's the secret of its success Trish--every one too can make it.

    It's really kind of fascinating, something new in America, not totally deriving form the old world.

  142. Ms Clinton, only 45% oppose.

    Her husband won on less than 50%, both times.

    Still like Big Al as a Dem dark horse. We're still watching an early episode of the mini series.

    Even when the show is over, the ends will hang loose.

  143. Contrast this good, hearty Mormon doctrine with that of my Luther, with his irrational predestination, and salvation by faith, not works. The Mormons give you something to work for, the Lutheran doctriine(at least Luther's doctrine, we have some good theologians now who have chucked much of it) is incomprehensible in its contradictions.

  144. One thing more about Luther before my wife drags me kicking to Wal-Mart, a basic doctrine is, you can protest. We can protest the protester(Luther), therefore in theory at least we aren't glued to our seats.

    I can post my own 95 theses right here on the Internet if I want to. Post em right up there, do Martin proud.

  145. desert rat said...

    Ms Clinton, only 45% oppose.

    Her husband won on less than 50%, both times.

    Still like Big Al as a Dem dark horse. We're still watching an early episode of the mini series.

    Even when the show is over, the ends will hang loose.

    Mon Jun 11, 11:35:00 PM EDT
    clinton won with less than 50% twice because pickaninny ross stuck his poetry nose in what he didn't understand. I pray there is no ignorant ross this time. So 45% of the electorate won't vote for hillary under any circumstances. That doesn't give her much play.

    yeah I agree. big al is the bigger threat. but still he's a lightweight. even the clintons thought he was a clown.

  146. trish said...

    You're right, bob. It is supremely optimistic. That's just the word that came to mind.

    Mon Jun 11, 11:30:00 PM EDT
    That's because they havn't had their temple destroyed several times. Its hard to look on the bright side when the dwelling place of the living God is tumbled down in ruin.
    Romans 7
    21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

  147. "That's because they havn't had their temple destroyed several times. Its hard to look on the bright side when the dwelling place of the living God is tumbled down in ruin."

    It's hard to look on the bright side when you begin with a concept of Man as a fallen creature.

  148. "What a wretched man I am!"

    Paul found acceptance and grace in Jesus. Jesus found acceptance and grace within himself.

    Jesus seems to have thought there was all too much emphasis on temples. "The day will come when they will not worship at Jerusalem, nor on this mountain, but in freedom and truth." That might not be the exact quote but it's close.

  149. Trish, that's why my wife doesn't like going to church. I don't feel like a sinner, she says. And I believe she is right, too, and isn't.

  150. trish said...

    "That's because they havn't had their temple destroyed several times. Its hard to look on the bright side when the dwelling place of the living God is tumbled down in ruin."

    It's hard to look on the bright side when you begin with a concept of Man as a fallen creature.
    Its not hard to see how they'd think that way what with human sacrifice & male & female temple prostitution. conservatives these days generally track the sudden ascention of homosexuals to power to roe v wade. homosexuality & abortion are pretty much like the abominations that God told moses would give the caananites over into his hands. Its wasn't that moses was so good. But rather that the Caananites were so bad. The hebrews stay in the land was completely conditional. If they did the same thing as the caananites--they'd get the boot too. During the first temple--they did do the same thing as the caananites and they got the boot.

    Conservatives generally think too that God's blessing on the USA is conditional.

  151. I search my mind, and I can't think of a thing the Jews did in Europe to deserve the holocaust.

  152. Kilmer:The Phillipines is to Saudi Arabia as Mexico is to the USA.

    Only in the sense that OFW's (Overseas Filipino Workers) are willing to fill positions that rich, spoiled Saudi kids refuse to take. The difference is that the USA is ten times more populous than Saudi Arabia, so there are ten times more potential unfilled jobs, and also that there is no long-term future in Saudi Arabia; once the oil starts to run out, the first thing to go will be the OFW's.

    On the other hand their relative success ie the money they send home -- has highlighted the failures of the elites in the Phillipines.

    Elites? You're kidding, right? We're talking about a country that has elected one action-movie star to the Presidency (Erap), and ran another action-movie star in 2004 (FPJ), and a boxer for the Senate. The P.I. is a showbiztocracy.