The network
The five men jailed for life in London last week for a fertiliser bomb plot were all members of a violent Islamist group. With a worldwide influence and a radicalised following, is al-Muhajiroun waiting to strike again? Jamie Doward and Andrew Wander report
Sunday May 6, 2007
The ObserverRewind to London, Sunday, 8 September, 1996. Al-Muhajiroun, an obscure Islamist organisation, has booked the London Arena in Docklands for a conference dedicated to 'the struggle for Khilafah', the creation of an Islamic state. Speakers are to include Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, al-Muhajiroun's leader, who 10 years later will flee Britain to Lebanon after praising the 7 July London bombers.Video addresses will be beamed in and letters of support are to be read. There will be one from Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the Hamas leader held in an Israeli prison for authorising the execution of two Israeli soldiers. There is another from Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman, jailed in the US for plotting to set off bombs in New Jersey and New York.
There will also be an address on behalf of a man called Sheikh al-Jihad, better known as Osama Bin Laden, who a month earlier had publicly declared war on America.Bin Laden's address, according to the conference organisers, will refer to the heroes of the Taliban. It will talk about Muslim suffering, about injustice, about the need to take action. For al-Muhajiroun this is a coming of age moment, the day the group emerged from its hinterland and on to the world stage.
At the time the conference, which the organisers cancelled at the last moment, raised hardly a blip on the radar of British intelligence. Now The Observer can reveal how al-Muhajiroun became the incubator of a global terror network that played a decisive role in radicalising the five 'fertiliser bomb' plotters jailed for life last week for planning a multiple bombing campaign at targets that included the Bluewater shopping centre in Essex, the Ministry of Sound nightclub in London and Britain's domestic gas network.
Isn't it interesting? Eventually all roads lead back to Pakistan. It might be time to shut down the roads leading in and out of Pakistan. By that, I mean monitor the "high roads" like airline flights . It shouldn't be too difficult to identify frequent flyer jihadis. A little profiling is definitely in order. Who would object? I'm sure that the international community will cooperate in such an endeavor and I doubt that anyone is still misled by the misguided notions of political correctness and multiculturalism. In a year or two we can have the bad ones all rounded up and then it will be a simple matter to implement the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies five step plan to reform the madrassas. (ht: Doug) It should be a simple police matter. No need to involve a military. These are religious men, after all. We can reason with them. We need dialogue, not guns....
Muslim immigration to the UK, a brief backround:
ReplyDeletewww.bbc.co.uk/religion/
religions/islam/
history/uk_2.shtml
(bobalharb is going to have to pass on to me, the computer immpaired, his hard-won knowledge of creating direct links)
Britain has such a large Pakistani population- first, second, and third generation - that even given its more permissive (compared to the US) surveillance laws, counter-terrorism is hair-raisingly difficult. And as the man from Scotland Yard asks: when do you end your monitoring and bring in your guy(s)?
The longer-term question is WHY such relatively large numbers are susceptible to the message of violent jihad. What makes for the mindset amenable, first, to the indoctrination, and second, to the activity itself? It's not an idle question.
Trish, all you have to do is go to the bottom of the opening page and follow the instructions.
ReplyDeleteJust type what you just wrote:
www.bbc.co.uk/religion/
religions/islam/
history/uk_2.shtml
and put it between the parenthesis where
http://belmontclub.blogspot.com it typed
Then between those two opposing arrows where you have BC , place your subject. Try it.
In a famous 1940 Presidential address to the Muslim League's annual convention in Lahore it was said:
ReplyDelete“It is extremely difficult to appreciate why our Hindu friends fail to understand the real nature of Islam and Hinduism. They are not religions in the strict sense of the word, but are, in fact, different and distinct social orders. It is a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality, and this misconception of one Indian nation has gone far beyond the limits, and is the cause of most of our troubles, and will lead India to destruction, if we fail to revise our notions in time. The Hindus and the Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, and literature. They neither intermarry, nor inter-dine together, and indeed they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspects on life and of life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Mussalmans derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, their heroes are different, and they have different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other, and likewise, their victories and defeats overlap. To yoke together two such nations under a single State, one as a numerical minority and the other as a majority, must lead to growing discontent and the final destruction of any fabric that may be so built up for the government of such a State.”
This should be read and recited to every Muslim immigrant, including the not so recent immigrants to "Pakistan".
Thank you kindly, Mr. 2164th. I will.
ReplyDeleteAnd in case anyone missed it: On Friday, Major General Caldwell said that for the past month or so, Syria has been helpfully restricting the transit of foreign fighters into Iraq.
That only took 4 years.
Wonder why.
And what're they getting in return?
Why? Because Ms Pelosi laid down the Law!
ReplyDeleteThat has been the only visable change in our attitude towards Syria, Ms Pelosi went calling, then the Syrians modified their behaviour.
Maybe she should travel more, her diplomatic efforts must have been the cause of the effect, no?
Mat,
ReplyDeleteYoni expects Bibbi, (who he hates) to take over when corruption charges take out Olmert.
Expects war w/Syria, Hamas, Lebanon next summer!
Hamas employs Mickey Mouse
'Islam will dominate the world,' Palestinian Mickey Mouse says on TV show Yaakov Lappin
A Mickey Mouse-like character is making regular appearances on Hamas's al-Aqsa TV to teach Palestinian children that Islam will "dominate the world," the Palestinian Media Watch (PMW) organization said in a press release. Sections of the video are available for viewing on PMW's website.
"The squeaky-voiced Mickey Mouse look-alike, named Farfur, is the star of a weekly children's program called Tomorrow's Pioneers on the official Hamas TV station," PMW said, adding that the character takes "every opportunity to indoctrinate young viewers with teachings of Islamic supremacy, hatred of Israel and the US and support of 'resistance' – the Palestinian euphemism for terror."
"We are setting with you the cornerstone for world leadership under Islamic leadership. Isn't it so, Saraa'?" Farfur asked, turning to a young girl who co-presents the children's program.
"Yes, our beloved children," she replied.
"You must be careful regarding your prayer and to go to the mosque for all five (daily) prayers. I say, in the mosque and in the first rows, until we can lead the world," Farfur continued.
Washington Post Again Critical of Speaker Pelosi: ‘No Results in Damascus’
ReplyDeletePosted by Noel Sheppard on April 29, 2007 - 20:14.
For at least the second time this month, the Washington Post went after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-California) for meeting with Syria’s President Bashar al-Assad.
For those that have forgotten, the Post was harshly critical of the Speaker’s trip at the time, calling it “foolish” and “ludicrous.”
On Friday, the Post editorial staff, in a piece entitled “No Results in Damascus,” chronicled what’s happened in Syria, and the rest of the region, since Pelosi returned.
As you might imagine, the news wasn’t good (h/t Glenn Reynolds and Gateway Pundit, emphasis added throughout):
THE CONGRESSIONAL leaders who visited Damascus this month to meet Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad gave a practical test to the oft-stated theory that "engaging" his regime is more likely to produce results than the Bush administration's policy of isolating it. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) was particularly unstinting in her goodwill, declaring that she had come to see Mr. Assad "in friendship, hope, and determined that the road to Damascus is a road to peace." In a statement, her delegation reported that it had talked to Mr. Assad about stopping the flow of foreign terrorists to Iraq and about obtaining the release of kidnapped Israeli soldiers. It also said it had "conveyed our strong interest in the cases of [Syrian] democracy activists," such as imprisoned human rights lawyer Anwar al-Bunni.
Nice laundry list, wouldn’t you agree? Well, what were the results?
Mr. al-Bunni might offer the best answer -- if he could. On Tuesday, one of Mr. Assad's judges sentenced him to five years in prison. His "crimes" were to speak out about the torture and persecution of regime opponents, to found the Syrian Human Rights Association and to sign the "Damascus Declaration," a pro-democracy manifesto.
Strike one. How about stopping the flow of foreign terrorists into Iraq?
Well, there has been a major surge in suicide bombings in Baghdad and elsewhere in Iraq this month, in what U.S. commanders describe as an attempt by al-Qaeda to defeat the new security operation in the capital. According to U.S. and Iraqi officials, almost all suicide bombers in Iraq are foreigners, and some 80 percent of them pass through Syria. The border remains as porous as ever.
Strike two. And how about obtaining the release of Israeli soldiers?
Meanwhile the military wing of Hamas, whose headquarters is in Damascus, launched a barrage of rockets and mortar rounds at Israel from Gaza on Tuesday. Israeli officials said the attack appeared aimed at creating a diversion that would allow Hamas to capture more Israeli soldiers. If so, the operation failed -- but none of the hostages Ms. Pelosi said she spoke to Mr. Assad about have been released.
Strike three. What was the Post’s conclusion?
The danger of offering "friendship" and "hope" to a ruler such as Mr. Assad is that it will be interpreted as acquiescence by the United States to the policies of dictatorship. Ms. Pelosi's courting of Mr. Assad didn't cause Mr. al-Bunni's prison sentence this week -- but it certainly did not discourage it.
Ouch.
Yoo Hoo!
ReplyDelete"According to U.S. and Iraqi officials, almost all suicide bombers in Iraq are foreigners, and some 80 percent of them pass through Syria.
The border remains as porous as ever."
No doubt that Right Wing Rag, the WaPo is making this Shit up.
ReplyDelete"Why? Because Ms Pelosi laid down the Law!"
ReplyDeleteI'm sure it was more along the lines of a long-awaited offer. And I'm sure that, regardless of the messenger, it was State's offer to make.
Someone's going to have to tell MG Caldwell that he's lying. Or he was handed the wrong sheet music.
ReplyDeleteSOP
ReplyDeleteCrazy Bitch's latest move was to condemn a South American guy for preventing the Narcoterrorists from taking over the country.
ReplyDeleteWell, not for that, but becauses he is Pro USA "Right Winger."
Baker-Hamilton, baby.
ReplyDeleteAnd if I were you, I'd ask Yoni if hell is supposed to freeze over next summer, too. (But I won't qibble over the Netanyahu part of the prediction.)
becauses
ReplyDelete...late at nite, Haoli's talk like brothers.
What do you think about Bibbi, Trish?
ReplyDeleteI've always liked him. Not as a politician, but as an intellectual.
ReplyDeleteDoug,
ReplyDeleteBibbi already had his turn. What I'd like to see is Limor Livnat take a stab at the Jihadis.
This Bitch is DANGEROUS!
ReplyDeleteNancy Pelosi Snubs Pro-U.S. Foreign Leader
May 2 2007 12:00AM
Get this: Nancy Pelosi won’t meet with Presdient Uribe of Columbia, perhaps the most pro-US leader in South America, despite his going out of his way to make the meeting happen.
According to sources within the House Democratic leadership, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi has denied the request for a meeting with Uribe when he comes to Washington next week. Uribe’s staff has attempted to set up a meeting with Pelosi, offering to come to her offices with Uribe if necessary. Pelosi has refused the meeting.
“She has third parties who have encouraged her not to take the meeting,” says a leadership aide, who said a coalition of labor organizations and MoveOn.org had been pressuring her to not meet with Uribe. “We’ve never seen anything like it. It’s not like we’re talking about some family from San Francisco who stopped by her office unannounced. This is the president of a country.”
In Colombia, Uribe has been struggling against communist terrorist groups financed by Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez, as well as leftist political pressure internally. All while attempting to work with the U.S. against narco-trafficking. “He’s a friend and an ally,” says a State Department source, who was unaware of Pelosi’s snub. “I’d be surprised that one of our national leaders would not meet with a strategic partner of the United States of America.”
But guess who Nancy will meet with? Uribe’s socialist, anti-America, anti-free trade, anti-human-rights enemy Hugo Chavez.
According to leadership staff, [Pelosi] has members of her personal staff working on initial plans for a trip to Venezuela, perhaps in the fall, to meet with Chavez.
So let’s review:
Pelosi won’t meet with General Petraeus...
Mat,
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about Yoni's predictions of War?
...or are you still pondering what Trish REALLY thinks about his opinion?
I read her bio, mat. What makes her appealing?
ReplyDelete(I take it you don't care for Her Highness the Speaker, Doug.)
Doug,
ReplyDeleteActually, Trish is very close to my position on Bibbi. :D
Re: War w Syria
You know if the Presidential decree already been signed? Cause I'd really like to show off me new Kanukistani ice Hockey skills at Metula's Canada Centre.
Well, either the flow across the Syrian / Iraqi border has diminished, or it has not.
ReplyDeleteIf it has, then the WaPo is wrong in the core of it's analysis of her trip and it's results.
Or not.
So either the General is right, the fow is diminished, or the WaPo is right, and it's not.
Either or both, Ms Pelosi takes the charge, regardless.
Trish REALLY thinks that many Israelis REALLY want a Mulligan.
ReplyDeleteTrish,
ReplyDeleteYou mean, other than she's not Bibbi?
""She has third parties who have encouraged her not to take the meeting," says a leadership aide, who said a coalition of labor organizations and MoveOn.org had been pressuring her to not meet with Uribe. "We've never seen anything like it. It's not like we're talking about some family from San Francisco who stopped by her office unannounced. This is the president of a country."
ReplyDeleteSpectator
Little schooled as I am in these things...Caldwell said what Caldwell was supposed to say. And it was the first time it's been said. So it won't be the last.
ReplyDeleteMs P does not do allies, doug.
ReplyDeleteShe speaks to Assad and Maliki, thinks of traveling to Iran and Venezuela, but not Columbia. Perhaps she thinks the US does not need new bridges to Cokumbia.
That path is well traveled.
Ms P is a trailblazer.
I did notice Ms T, gone from the masthead.
Trish,
ReplyDeletere: Her Highness, the madam.
Since Maui dweller Pryor is no longer with us, I do my part, however humbly, to fill in:
That Bitch is CRAZY!
"You mean, other than she's not Bibbi?"
ReplyDeleteYes. Other than she's not Bibbi.
"I did notice Ms T, gone from the masthead. "
ReplyDeleteWHAAAAAT?
I'll get down on my knees for you, Ms T.
ReplyDeleteWhat did the Evil el Deuce DO to you?
"Ms P is a trailblazer."
ReplyDeleteMs P gets briefed. Ms P knew what's up. Ma P takes political advantage of that.
Don't she Ever.
ReplyDeleteDo she ever not?
ReplyDeleteOK, she's not crazy.
ReplyDeleteJust EVIL.
But then, if my constituency was SF, you can just IMAGINE the crapola *I* would come up with!!!
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, my constituency numbers 1.
ReplyDeleteIs Desert Rat just funnin me about Ms T?
ReplyDeleteSay it ain't so!
It's a beautiful city, Doug. I did my DLI there. But I read it's gone to hell due to the influx of the homeless and other, assorted disturbed street people.
ReplyDeleteTrish,
ReplyDeleteMike Savage is no longer carried on 870, KRLA.
You remind me I should find where I can listen to him on FRIDAYS which are his light days.
He likes the Mayor personally, but says the streets are now paved with the excrement of street people.
Less than idea.
"less than ideal"
ReplyDeleteWhat is DLI?
Mike Savage is unhinged, Doug. I listened to him for the first time in years while up north awhile ago. Makes Hannity look like God's Own Liberal.
ReplyDeleteDefense Language Institute. Since closed in SF - along with the Presidio. We were in an old Marine hospital, high up with gorgeous views.
ReplyDeleteTrish,
ReplyDeleteYou mean, that's not enough?
Was he THAT bad, mat?
ReplyDeleteTrish,
ReplyDeleteWhat do you suppose my answer to that would be?
Hey!
ReplyDeleteMy comment got sent to hell.
(as should Windows Vista)
Trish,
I said on Fridays, Savage would reminisce, and wax Romantic.
It is really quite hilarious, and informative about what life was like growing up in the Jewish Ghettos of NYC.
...actually there was no such thing, as the ghetto consisted of ALL the ethnic minorities.
Far different from today, where the spirit of LA RAZA, and the Federales, led by el presidente, incubate the downfall of America as we know it.
The Brave New World awaits US, doug.
ReplyDeleteThe skull & boners united
mat, I don't know much about Netanyahu as PM. (A little more as Defense Minister.) I remember the stories about a supposed Clinton hand in his undoing. Truly, that's about all that I know.
ReplyDeleteI've always enjoyed his writing (he defined terrorism for me a long time ago - loooong time ago) and listening to him speak. And his brother. I never knew about that until one late night in Belgium, Dutch television ran the Entebbe story.
"She speaks to Assad and Maliki, thinks of traveling to Iran and Venezuela" Throw in Russia as well.
ReplyDeleteBrave New World indeed...what does that slipping dollar mean?
Financial warfare...
Can the "Axis of Oil" Topple the US Dollar?
Is the dollar doomed?
comments are interesting
Why isn't anyone bitching about the price of gas?
ReplyDeleteIt's eighty bucks to fill up a pick-up truck. I saw a guy the other day with the most woe-full look on his face filling up a pick-up camper rig, rig with two gas tanks. Wished he'd never heard of it, he said. Also, a lot less boat trafffic on the rivers around here. Ecology!
ReplyDeleteI thought we weren't supposed to bitch.
ReplyDeleteThe good news and bad--We're Cooked but not by the muzzies, according to this former MP.
ReplyDeleteTrish, I finally had to get my daughter to write the procedure down on a piece of paper. I just tried to copy it out for you, but when I went to post the instructions it came up as a link, minus the instructions.
ReplyDeleteYou bring up the article you want to post, highlight the place with a left click on the address bar, then right click copy, then go to the EB, then type < then a, then hit the space bar once, then href=" then right click in post and select paste then finish with " then as deuce says between the opposing arrows put you title you want to use and close it out with /a>
The arrows should be pointing inwards towards your title you want to use
Trish,
ReplyDeleteBibbi is/was fine as Finance Minister, but not more than that.
"Bibbi is/was fine as Finance Minister, but not more than that."
ReplyDeleteI can understand that.
And thanks, bob. I'll give it a try this evening.
What will the choices be,
ReplyDeleteMs Livni or Bibbi?
Any other options coming to the fore?
Can Mr Olmert battle on, staying he course?
ReplyDeleteWill his MPs stand by him, shoulder to shoulder, or desert. or shove him aside?
dRat,
ReplyDeleteThe personality for Premiership will be Likud.
O/t
ReplyDeleteBut it needs to be said.
I have read in the past week how "we" should prepare ourselves for THE QUEEN.
Well, I can't tell you how I would want our people to be their normal gracious selves when in HER presence but to "prepare ourselves?"
Pish Tosh..
We beat them 1776,1812, bankrolled them in WWI and WWII and have since acted as their protector ever since.
I submit it was she who upon arrival should have kissed the ground beneath her feet.
dRat,
ReplyDeleteLivni is part of Olmert's team. That ship has sunk. If Livni had any political acumen and foresight, she would have resigned long ago. She has not. Politically, she's pretty much finished.
trish,
ReplyDeleteThe easiest way to get the link thing to work is to type what you see at the bottom of the page into notepad (if you are on a pc) or some such text editor. Save that somewhere on your computer and then anytime you want to make a link just copy from that notepad file into the Leave your comment box and then paste the url from the article over top of the belmont url and Paste/type what you want the link to appear as where the BC is.
The US dollar. I've been following the US dollar fall for quite awhile now and found most investments outside of the US have fared much better if for no other reason then the US dollar decline. That is quite the headwind for an investment. It also cushions the price rise in Oil if you are buying the gas in a foreign currency. The reserve currency status certainly seems to be a key factor in at least keeping the slide in value orderly. A precipitous drop would wreak havoc. It certainly is possible. I have no desire to hold US dollars for any length of time and buying property in the US looks to be a risky endeavor.
There is definitely an upside to a low dollar value. Exporting becomes easier with the lower price but that is only good if inflation remains low, as it has.
Habu,
ReplyDeleteBeat 'em in 1812 eh? Maybe a page should be taken out of that book and pasted into the Iraq one - Victory is ours, the war is over. Bring the troops home!
In 1814 we took a little trip
ReplyDeleteAlong with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.
We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.
We looked down the river and we see'd the British come.
And there must have been a hundred of'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.
We stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.
Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye
We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well.
Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave 'em ... well
Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.
We fired our cannon 'til the barrel melted down.
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.
Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.
bobalharb
ReplyDeleteRe: your 12:16 post. I am in your debt. I've been fiddling with this for a while with no success. Your instructions were on the mark. Thank you.
Prima facia Ash. prima facia.
ReplyDeleteTHE primary questions in battles and wars is who holds what at the end of the day.
I do not recall being under a monarchy in some time here in the colonies old boy.
And certainly not to say that the Brits didn't have their moments in 1812-15, but then they had most of the best during the Revolutionary War...right up to their surrender at Yorktown, in which being too embarassed Cornwallis sent his second to surrender.
Prima facia, old chap, prima facia,
or if you prefer res ipsa loquitur.
Oh yes Ash,
ReplyDeleteOur days haven't ended in the Iraq question yet but as to who holds what.
Does Saddam hold power ..naw he be dead..
Baathists..regrouping in Syria, not Iraq
And I would easily point out that it is only by our grace and humanity that many of the mud hut cities in Iraq are still standing and their populations not scattered to the shamal.
"More such humanity and grace and we shall be undone."
ReplyDeleteBang, The Mother Of All Supernovas
ReplyDeletecutler,
ReplyDeleteAmen, bro
Habu
Mark Steyns's offering today questions whether we got a Ronald Reaganesque Sarkozy as a follow up to Germany's election of Merkel as Thatcher.
ReplyDeleteHe concludes not.
I would only say that to have within such a short time the concurrrance of two such towering political figures would be highly unlikely, but that we can hope that the sum is greater than the parts.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAsh said...
ReplyDeleteyep Habu,
Victory is ours, time to bring the boys home.
Seems all is not happy go lucky for the folks actually doing the fighting:
"Sometimes I wonder...
...if I'm going to survive the 18 months of stop loss I'm going to endure... yes, I said 18 MONTHS...
...how fucked the Army will be in ten years because of the huge shortage of reenlistments and the continuing decrease in quality soldiers coming in...
...why the military is wasting resources by sending me to Army schools when they know I wouldn't reenlist for anything...
...how many of these generals who get on television and say that soldiers support the war have ever talked with one us man to man...
...how fucked up it is that my coworkers and I wish we'd get physically hurt so we could get medically processed out of the Army...
...whether all the weight I've lost since redeployment has been because of stress...
...how many names of killed comrades I'll have to tattoo on myself after another tour in Iraq...
...whether I'd follow through concerning my shit talking about leaving the country if I was called back into active duty once I finally get
out..."
http://funwithhandgrenades.blogspot.com/
If I was really mean, I'd sic Allen on Asses Ash.
ReplyDelete...but I'm not that kind of guy.
Trish is right, Bobal:
ReplyDeleteConsume, don't Bitch.
Folks'll just be consumin a little LESS.
Bobal,
ReplyDeleteMon May 07, 12:16:00
Huh?
Trish,
ReplyDeleteAsh is right at Mon May 07, 01:24:00 PM EDT
Can't believe I just typed that.
But it's my opinion I'm relying on, not his.
Ed,
ReplyDeletere:
"We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well"
"saw"
So, what's the deal with Mother Teresita???
ReplyDeleteI've had my fun poking allen...
ReplyDeletemy,my he puffs up a like a little kitty cat when under attack, or is would a puffer fish be a better analogy?
Gee Ash,
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the fucked up Democrats and anti war leftests in this country contribute to the confusion of 18-23 year old men?
I wonder if having Democrats who prior to the war were absolutely sure that Saddam had WMD's and were feverishly working on acquiring nuclear capability confuse and frustrate young men whose lives on one the line, only to change their minds a few years later. French Kerry, Hillary, Reid Daschell,Murtha,Kennedy , hell their entire leadership was on record as saying we need to stop Saddam and clean up the mess
You and the left get so tiresome.
Chirping
Time to bring the troops home,
Time to bring the troops home
We can't win. We can't win.
Ash, you and your kind know how to do one thing. Throw sand in the machine so it's ceases functioning without greater effort by those who run it.
The entire rhetoric, assaults, and operations contra the US effort in Iraq by the Left are an exact duplication of the Vietnam era tactics made easier, and thus ostensibly magnified by the expedited (m)information of the internet.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAsh,
ReplyDeleteYou know the old "sticks and stones may break my bones etc"
This is telling of your character.
I've had my fun poking allen...
my,my he puffs up a like a little kitty cat when under attack, or is would a puffer fish be a better analogy?
There is one thing for certain, I would stake a large bet on it. That you would piss in your pants before you could ever summond the courage to say some of the things you say here, in print, face to face with real men.
But it's the real men that allow you to have the freedom to play the game of poking the caged lion.
One day you'll be overheard by an uncaged lion and the results will be nasty for you.
Teresita:
ReplyDeleteWhere did you go? I thought you were going to do some posting here at the bar?
Come back to work, we could use a good hand.
habu,
ReplyDeleteNaw, I'd say most everything I've said on the forums to people in person with the exception of the last one about Allen, I don't generally make fun of folk but Allen gets so sanctimonious and smarmy that it is hard to resist especially when propped up at a bar bantering with folks in a drunken stupor.
Come on Viktor Silo, out with it.
ReplyDeleteto people who you already know agree with you...
ReplyDeleteyou'd never say it to a Leatherneck.
you mean someone like you? sure I would.
ReplyDeleteWhit
ReplyDeleteI found that my proposed comment had not been fully thought through but please be assured that if I have anything important to add to these discussions I will not hesitate to do so.
However, one topic I find missing from the various threads is: what have we learned from this war both in terms of philosophical justification and practical application?
Perhaps the topic(s) have been discussed here but, if they have, I have missed it.
Let me add, though, that this war, having been engaged, must be won for reasons far more important than the hoped-for democratisation of Iraq. If we cut and run and/or do not learn the true lessons of this war then we will have, well and truly, wasted the blood and treasure of America and her allies.
Hey, yeah!
ReplyDeleteI think some Puffers have spines, I'll check sometime.
Problem is tho, they're cute, and w/Al, that's gonna be a BIG Problem.
"practical application?"
ReplyDelete---
Viktor:
Let our troops fight to win.
Throw out PC ROE's.
Destroy enemy sanctuaries.
Use tactical Nukes if Tora Bora ever comes up again.
Welcome aboard victor silo, feel free to chime in anytime. I think lessons learned and practical application would make a great post and thread but trying to keep the thread on point is nigh near impossible with this drinking crowd. In the past, I've tried to get these guys to figure out where we're going with this GWOT or whatever one calls it. As for me, the biggest lesson learned is that "don't step on superman's cape, don't spit into the wind and don't nation build with the mohammedan. Next time it's got to be "reduce to rubble and let the devil take the hindmost."
ReplyDeleteyou mean someone like you? sure I would
ReplyDelete...yes , there is also that old saying ..
"You can do anything .....once"
Whit and Doug
ReplyDeletePhilosophically: the only justification for war is self-defence. Are we still fighting the war because Iraq is still a threat to us? I was an enthusiastic proponent of the war early on. I thought we achieved victory, that is to say, eliminated the Iraqi threat to the U.S., after a couple of weeks.
Practically, this war was not well planned nor was it well executed. The implementation of the war was unduly delayed. The Generals, esp. Tommy Franks, underestimated Saddam. Saddam was a fox.
The administration was very naive in their consultations with the U.N. They let various Euopean governments, most notably France, various corporations, most notably TotalFina, and various U.N. officials, most notably Koffi Annan, all of whom had been corrupted by Saddam with the Oil for Food and other bribery schemes, connive, conspire, and contribute to this undue delay.
Now we are in a helluva fix and the enemy knows it. We are never going to win the war of public opinion and we cannot afford to lose the actual war so we may as well wage total war.
When we finally do a post mortem on this war we are going to have to ask certain questions: How did we lose the propaganda war? What is a winning propaganda campaign? How do you define victory and how do you construct the scenario where you can declare victory?
Propaganda and ROE's are important but not as important as deciding when the justification of self-defence is moot. Neutralising the threat to reasonable levels is not the same as absolutely eliminating the threat. If one chooses the later no war would ever be won.
I can have no effect on this war. It's the next war that I'm concerned with. And let none of us think that there won't be another war.
Geo Bush is a good man but that is not enough. It wasn't just that he was unschooled and geopolitically naive. It was that he wasn't even street smart, for Pete's sake. And he was so bloody gullible: "I looked into Putin's eyes and saw his soul..." or some such bullshit.
Oh, oh. My wife says that I'm turning red. That's her job. I've got to stop now or I'll blow a gasket.
Later.
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ReplyDeleteAsh,
ReplyDeleteI'm going to put a little sunshine into your Tuesday morning.
Here's what's going to happen: Come September, Petraeus will do what he's paid to do - that is, he will speak his mind. He will tell the administration, before he tells Congress, that the Surge (which wasn't his plan to begin with) is not working as hoped and that it's time to change mission and drawdown troops. The President CAN say no, in which case Petraeus prepares to resign. The President will not say no (I assume he's still got all his marbles) and a new mission, with new troop levels, will be brought out. Petraeus will be in charge of the transition. (Rat was partly right.)
One of the interesting things about this is how it will change the debates for both Democrats and Republicans, a little more than a year out from the elections.
And think about this: It will be the FIRST real change of mission we've had in Iraq since 2003. Overdue, but I won't complain.
ReplyDeletetrish,
ReplyDeleteI'll log that post of yours back in the dusty caverns of my mind and watch to see how events unfold. I hope the CIC has control/possession of his marbles because, in my view, something along those lines is the only plausible way forward.