“Soft despotism is a term coined by Alexis de Tocqueville describing the state into which a country overrun by "a network of small complicated rules" might degrade. Soft despotism is different from despotism (also called 'hard despotism') in the sense that it is not obvious to the people."

Friday, November 10, 2006

War in The Courts

Time Magazine is reporting:

"Exclusive: Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
A lawsuit in Germany will seek a criminal prosecution of the former Defense Secretary and other U.S. officials for their alleged role in abuses at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo

Just days after his resignation, former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is about to face more repercussions for his involvement in the troubled wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. New legal documents, to be filed next week with Germany's top prosecutor, will seek a criminal investigation and prosecution of Rumsfeld, along with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA director George Tenet and other senior U.S. civilian and military officers, for their alleged roles in abuses committed at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba."

The Friday afternoon headlines are sensational for Time and Karpinski's involvement distasteful but the German courts have previously refused to take the case.

I would like to know who the plantiffs' Lawyers are. I think they may be much more than lawyers or simple legal advocates.


  1. What are they going to do, send in SS commandos to grab Rummy like they tried to grab Churchill?

  2. They don't need to move any stuff in meatspace, WC.

    They only need to deluge the minds of the meat, decimate their conviction, wage a war on their confidence and invade their morals.

    American's don't get it by and large. We should be throwing this shit right back at Germany. What to throw back? I'm not sure, but if China can throw shit at us, I'm sure we can throw shit at Germany.

  3. Well there goes that healing trip to Baden-Baden.

    What is with the Krauts? Bet money the Democrats have enginered this. It is well within their tactics profile.

  4. I'll never be able to look at Possumtater in his Lederhosen again.
    Oh the humanity.

    And lets accelerate the withdraw of our troops. Like tomorrow.

  5. I'd say forget Europe, Habu...

    Goto somewhere in Asia - fares are the same, the civilization is better.

    Singapore won't be having a problem with the Muslims, I'd wager. Asians still know which side of the shiv is sharp, to paraphrase Wretchard.

  6. Let's not jump on the Germans too quickly. They may not allow the case. It's obvious that in order to prosecute a war against radical Islam, western laws such as the Geneva Conventions and other vulnerable legal loopholes must be changed.

    I hope the Dems are too hasty and try to emasculate the Patriot Act.

  7. meant to say "I hope the Dems are not too hasty..."

  8. Gosh, what took 'em so long?

    On a different note:

    Just Say No To Nation Building (not its actual title)

    Do yourselves, and the country, a favor. Read it. The whole thing. Or I will be forced to cut and paste at considerable length.

  9. Trish:
    Put together a post and email it to EB.. We'll put up it with proper attribution to you.

  10. Civil War in China and Venezuela, yep, great news.

    The Baker/ Hamilton Team will disagree, though, me thinks.

    Niether of those posts auger much hope for futuure "stability" in either region.

    The ChiComs will not hesitate to kill 500,000 Chinese to preserve stability. Let alone Japs, or Nationalists on Formosa, either of which could move the focus from the internal challenges on the Mainland to offshore threats that can rally the base.

    Or all those capitalistic Communists, the best and the brightest of their generation, may just go quietly into the night.

    I wouldn't take that bet, like I would not bet the GOP would retain the House, last Tuesday.

  11. Rummy and troop morale, I should have said.

  12. Thanks for the offer, whit.

    Rat's exerpt and link on the previous thread, BTW, is excellent.

    The Politician's Dream/Businessman's Nightmare

  13. All of this is just yesterdays' News, this talk of Rumsfeld.
    Good thing we did not sign on to the ICC or it'd be off to Europe for Mr Rumsfeld and Alberto, both.

    Perhaps they'd have lived through the Trial, but that Milosvic fellow didn't. Imagine though, keeping Rummy and Alberto detained until the Judges came to a verdict. They do not hold to a "speedy" trial standard over there, nor in Iraq, for that matter.

    Why it's just been three years to get a verdict for Saddam. That was pretty "cut and dried", an Abu Grahib trial would take even longer, the Chain of Command being much more obtuse for US than for Saddam.

  14. Re: Nationbuilding.

    It was a victim of "Iraqi insurgents."

    We need to bury that idea. The corpse is becoming, shall we say odiferous?

  15. Will a Dem Congress and Prez in '08 join the ICC? How could we ever prosecute a military action, again, without the express permission of China, Russia and the Euros for every single step we take, lest American officials be hauled before their enlightened kangaroo courts?

    Woman Catholic, you should be happy at the suit against Rummy, since you ardently believe the Bushies torture terrorist and suspect detainees.

  16. Catherine said:

    Woman Catholic, you should be happy at the suit against Rummy, since you ardently believe the Bushies torture terrorist and suspect detainees.

    If you can provide a quote demonstrating my alleged ardent belief that Bush tortures terrorists, we can use that as a basis for further conversation.

  17. American's don't get it by and large. We should be throwing this shit right back at Germany. What to throw back? I'm not sure, but if China can throw shit at us, I'm sure we can throw shit at Germany.

    We're gonna flip over BMWs and light em on fire so we can burn all our Nena, Kraftwerk, and Tangerine Dream records, and try to put the blaze out with up-ended bottles of Beck's.

  18. Singapore won't be having a problem with the Muslims, I'd wager.

    Me old bamboo, me old bamboo,

    You'd better never bother with me old bamboo,

    You can have me hat or me bumbershoe,

    But you'd better never bother with me old bamboo.

  19. Woman cathoic: If you can provide a quote demonstrating my alleged ardent belief that Bush tortures terrorists, we can use that as a basis for further conversation.

    Well, wc, I said "Bushies", but here are a few winners from Belmont Club:

    "John McCain says torture doesn't work, and he should know. I want my America to live by certain moral principles. There are some things civilized people will not do. Perhaps on Tuesday we can start to get that America back again." 11/05/2006 08:21:40 AM

    "There is a man who died in CIA custody after suffering what they call a 'Palestinian hanging'...a form of crucifixion that made me sick to even read about. Don't tell me that this kind of treatment is just 'coercive interrogation', that is another sick military malapropism. This is not the kind of America I want to live in. 11/05/2006 08:42:05 AM

    "…when we torture our EPWs, we forfeit the right to take glory in our values. We end up rooting for our army against the darkies just because they're the white guys…" 11/05/2006 11:01:18 AM

    "...when we abandon our values and torture people in Iraq, the information we get is useless, because even if it could be used to quickly terminate the conflict, then other contractors besides Halliburton will demand to bid for the government's largesse and that isn't in the script." 11/05/2006 11:29:42 AM

    "Oh yeah, torture works real good. And this administration wants to use it to get the poor farmer schmucks sold to them by their personal enemies in Afghanistan to confess to elaborate dirty bomb plots by signing confessions in English they can't even read." 11/05/2006 03:22:22 PM

    "But anyone who mistreats helpless prisoners has a yellow streak a mile long. I admire cultures which have the strength to treat even their captured enemies with compassion. Unfortunately, America is not one of them, at least not right now. Maybe after Nov. 7."
    11/06/2006 06:40:14 AM

    "Every time I state my point of view that we should not torture prisoners or deliberatly target non-combatants, I get a reply that says, 'What about the Bataan Death March or the Hanoi Hilton' and it really exasperates me. We cannot control what other people do, but we can set policy for American forces. The irony is that the very same Commander-in-Chief who appeals to Jesus as his source of morality is ignoring the teaching of Christ to Do good to those who do good to you, and do good to those who do bad to you, that good may abound." 11/06/2006 11:54:00 AM

    "We're the white hats, we're not supposed to hit below the belt or shoot people in the back or show cruelty to our EPWs. Maybe after this Tuesday we will get our America back, the 'shining city on a hill' that shuns torture and is therefore actually morally better than brutal third-world regimes scattered around the globe." 3:07:36

    And there’s more, but I’ve wasted ten minutes and think you’re a little scary for your denials, logic and avatars.

  20. Trish:
    I read the Nationbuilding article. I was thinking the article almost irrelevant especially at this point in time.

    I have a hard time, anyone would consider the idea given our Iraqi experience.

    Isn't it understood that next time, we'll just leave the place in rubble? If anyone suggests nationbuilding he'll be throttled.

  21. darn fingers and mind:

    I have a hard time believing...

  22. I think you're right, Whit. We've taken our last bite at this apple I'm pretty sure.

  23. catherine, please remind me never to get athwart your good graces--?

  24. Buddy,

    Wilful misrepresentations and misinformation in the media or by self-indulgents on the net brings the conversation down, doncha think?

  25. Catherine said:

    And there’s more, but I’ve wasted ten minutes and think you’re a little scary for your denials, logic and avatars.

    This comment by Catherine, and all the false attributions that preceded it, means that she has nothing to say to me, just like Habu1, Desert Rat and Allen. I shall not forget.

  26. no, tess, all it means is that you overshot, and got trimmed a little. happens to everybody. relax.

  27. "Isn't it understood that next time, we'll just leave the place in rubble? If anyone suggests nationbuilding he'll be throttled."

    You're really dealing with inertia here.

    In answer to your first question: no. We do not do that - or we do that in conjunction with the Grand Project to Rehabilitate and Reconstruct.

    Stop and count the years between the nation-building endeavors of Clinton and Bush. Bush was elected, in some measure, by those who had tired of nation-building, which was almost as soon embraced again.

    Suddenly we're done with it?

    The notion of Imperial Grunts, while tired of, still appeals, and has not been fundamentally rejected.

    Simple rubble-izing will not replace it, and what foreign policy alternative is at hand?

    This is what drift is, whit.

  28. "This comment by Catherine, and all the false attributions that preceded it, means that she has nothing to say to me, just like Habu1, Desert Rat and Allen. I shall not forget."

    She more than overshot, Buddy. She lies. Those remarks were all made by Teresita at BC and she's admitted to being T.

    Enjoy your pet, guys, but her saying a couple of times now "I shall not forget" (on another thread at EB a few days ago, as well) is menacing in a scary movie kind of way.

  29. you are a fascinating commenter, much appreciated by all.

    but the rondo on waterboarding was a little elitist and ingracious.

    it gave you a too-easy moral-superiority over those in the field sacrificing themselves for you.

    You know that, too.

  30. Whoa, catherine--it'd be different if she was making policy--but she's a provocateuress (word?), and it *is* sorta fascinating. but, I can definitely understand your objection to trivializing the issue.

  31. "you (Teresita aka woman catholic) are a fascinating commenter, much appreciated by all.

    but the rondo on waterboarding was a little elitist and ingracious."

    Here’s the deal, Buddy, since you implied I'm a little zealous in pursuing what someone may say. I know people who have served and who are serving in the DoD, both active duty and civilian. If someone (to include discontents in the DoD) wants to colorfully smear their efforts and consciences without verifiable evidence and consistent, sincere logic, then I stick up for our side. Sorry about that.

    Perfect we’re not, but trivializing the constant hammering at our heart and motivation is losing the bigger war for us.

    "Fascinating commenter", "elitist" whatever.

  32. She blatantly lied above and, when in the mood, smears our cause and men, but she is a "Provocateuress." Nice honorific.

  33. buddy larsen said:

    you are a fascinating commenter, much appreciated by all. but the rondo on waterboarding was a little elitist and ingracious.

    In four days of participating on the Belmont Club and the Elephant Bar, I have said nothing about waterboarding. I regret that Buddy Larsen has chosen to join the likes of Catherine, Habu1, Desert Rat and Allen, but spare the rod and spoil the gadfly, I always say.

  34. no, I didn't think you were overzealous--it was a compliment on how well you back up your comments. i'm beginning to feel a little like collateral damage.

  35. Teresita the woman catholic and fascinating lesbian blatantly lied just above about my citations that she made, smears our cause and men when in the mood, acts pretty weird all around, and she is a "provocateuress."

    Why bother complaining about loss of will in this fight?

  36. woman catholic, you're a cheap debater. Who mentioned waterboarding, other than the fact you made all those statements on a thread about waterboarding?

    And, wow, you make the weirdest threats. Are you going to apply the "rod" now to your growing list of wrong-doers?

  37. rufus--good link.

    George McGovern also today recommended to an appreciative audience of New Bosses that even 'redeployment' was too much. out, now, all-the-way.

  38. okay, catherine, i'm a wimp. pile it on, Nov 7 wasn't near enough, i've already got more crow feathers in my mouth than a cheyenne war bonnet, what's a few more?

  39. Well, at least Teresita can change religions easily. She was a Taoist and nows she's a Catholic, or a Catholic again.

    Got to give her credit for that. I for one think we'd likely have a better world if folks didn't take the religions so damned seriously and get tied so tightly into it.

    And what's wrong with a convent or monastery? I feel all the time now like I need to get away myself.

  40. Got news for you Buddy; It's only going to get worse.

    And Worse.

    And Worse.

    Ah, SHIT!

  41. teresita, a.k.a. woman catholic

    re: "I shall not forget."

    Given Catherine's quotes, remembering seems to be your trouble.

    You take on a religious persona, going so far as to don the habit of a bride of Christ. You call yourself "woman catholic". (Does that mean you are the universal woman or a woman celebrant of the universal faith? You admonish that all are created in the "image of God", as if G-d makes no distinction between good and evil, right and wrong. You do so, while ignoring the very teachings of the Church to which you attach yourself. Do recall, the animating force of the missionary spirit is the deliverance of mankind from damning ignorance.

    Now, if you believe the stuff you pedal, take your one woman, lesbian, Little Sister of Mercy show on the road. By all means, “Go ye, therefore, unto all the world”, as did the stout hearted of yore, filled with faith and carrying nothing more than a staff and cloak. May I suggest beginning your work in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia? Should you survive long enough to escape to a US Mission, you will, doubtless come away with a different perspective on the universality of the human soul.

    An old professor, decades ago, gave me some great advice. Said he, "The most difficult part of writing is deciding what you believe and want to say about that; afterward, everything else takes care of itself."

  42. bobalharb said:

    Well, at least Teresita can change religions easily. She was a Taoist and nows she's a Catholic, or a Catholic again.

    It is with deep regret that I find bobalharb, too, thinks I am someone else. He seemed like a very nice, literate person until now.

  43. It ain't news for me, rufus--I already knew what a protest vote does. I'm from Ross Perot's state.

  44. Buddy,

    You're no wimp, but frankly I care less about your feelings and mine than I do about the Americans stuck prosecuting a war that people like Teresita think is immoral. At least "dissenters" like Ash don't knowingly lie to back up their positions or contradictory statements.

    Men are in the field and our government officials are on the line. The media is on the other side and the center-right blogosphere, while crowing about how different it is, too often indulges gossip behind the scenes and also distraction from the truth, if colorful enough or the writing works.

    It's nice that guys here put up girlie pictures for a break in the action (I don't look) on a blog with terrific posts and commentary. It's not so nice to see kindly tolerance for wilful lies. Don't words count, or is it more about how they sound and what you think a commenter's IQ is?

  45. well, hearing words from the other side is about the only blog-thing that shows how wrong they are.

    otherwise, the other side is just darkness, until days like Tuesday suddenly fall on your head.

  46. (I don't look)

    Then, how Does you know?

  47. watch it rufus--I got no more band-aides

  48. Robert Rubin, just now on Fox, asked about deficits, said the answer was all on the revenue side, which "wouldn't have any effect on the economy".

    Here they go, DC bringing in the harvest.

  49. By the way, I have a couple a problems with them "Girlie" Pictures.

    I don't know where to find them, and

    They don't post enough of them.

  50. Maybe, he's one of those 49% of Americans who believe we're already in "Recession."

    I wonder where they got an idea like that?

  51. teresita,

    It was not “fashion” that caused Jews to “forget” the name of the Ancient of Days, millennia ago.

    We did so purposefully, to prevent a “name”, in and of itself, from becoming the object of veneration.

    Unlike many of your spur of the moment clever comments, religious souls have a higher calling.

    If possible, and I hope it is, you should give some thought as to why so many here find fault.

  52. From Rasmussen Report:

    Nationally, a quarter (25%) of Adults say that the U.S. is not currently in recession these days. About half (49%), however, believe the U.S. in recession, while the remaining 27% of Americans are unsure.

    You can't make this shit up.

  53. hell, rufus, that's what the papers and the evening news tells 'em. "You ain't keeping up, you should have more, someone is screwing you".

    The actual numbers don't make a shit, so long as you tell 'em what they want to hear.

    I just do not get it, why, all over the blogs today there's this buyers remorse theme, when we saw only two years ago nearly half the country vote for a disgraceful shit like Kerry.

    So, where was the margin for error, with this protest vote--how could it NOT put this bunch back in office? why the shock?

  54. Yes, the econ discussion here is fantastic (Buddy and Rufus are brilliant, as are the rest of you), but let's ignore the elephant in the room, shall we:

    In four days of participating on the Belmont Club and the Elephant Bar...

    Come on, not creepy? She's denying she's Teresita. At least smart Trish stands by what she says.

  55. What's happening is what everyone born after 1945 feared and that is that the nuclear genie is not only out of the bottle, but slipping the lease it was on. It's a disaster. Puts everyone on edge. Mankind's technology is way out in front of the psychology. Worst weapons in the worst hands. Habu is not crazy, just blunt. Best way to make a point maybe. Any President had to go into Afghanistan. Or get impeached. Iraq? When we went, I thought we'd get there easily enough, and I hoped it would work out. I thought we should be bombing Iran. Maybe they have a nuke or five already. Maybe it's too late. Now we have the dems and what good is to be expected from that? None. Makes a bad scene worse. Things are radically out of whack and the way forward if there is one is bleak. Makes everyone testy, on edge.

  56. Exactly, buddy.

    It was foreseen.
    Perhaps not the scale, but the direction was definately evident for the past two years.

    Hell, remember Mr Bush got less total popular votes then Mr Gore, way back in 2000. To have operated in the secure knowledge that gerrymandered Districts would save the GOP majority was lunacy.

    But for Mr Bush and Mr Rove and the rest of the GOP Team, as well as rufus, to blame the librarians, that's priceless.

  57. Rat, 18-20 seats were lost by 5,000 votes or less, and two senate seats, MO and MT, are acknowledged to gone Dem on the librarian vote.

    Those two senate seats would've firewalled an awful lotta grief a-comin.

    But I'm note standing up for Rove--he should've seen it coming, you're right.

    Still took those votes to do it tho.

  58. projection, proschmection. We all f'd up. we shoulda been hammering Principle instead of answering DU charges.

  59. catherine, call me a fool, but I had thought all that identity-splitting was a joke, a deliberate farce.

  60. her version of the multiple possum taters

  61. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  62. Not when you deny saying things, Buddy. Then it's lying, plain and simple. And weird when someone who lies about their multiple personalities puts you on their list.

  63. I like to do silly names once in a while, but won't deny it's me doing it. And I would never take another person's tag. You don't see a difference?

  64. You assume those folk would have voted for the GOP list, buddy. Maybe they would have, if the GOP had stood for the librarian values.

    The greater challenge in Montana was can be seen Here, the 2004 results
    Mr Bush 59%, Mr Kerry 39%, Mr Nader 1.4%, All others 1%.

    If Mr Bush and Rove had maintained the base, the 3% that voted :obrarian would not have made a difference, but the truth is not those 3% that shifted to librarians, but the 10% that voted Dem this round, as opposed to last. The GOP has deeper problems then 3% that would not vote Dem.

    Now I object to Federal funds going to the "Approved" Points of Light. To not defending the border, to expanded Federal health & drug benefits.
    To the RoE, Catch & Release and the "Long War" in Iraq.

    For the GOP to have hung it's hat on temporary tax cuts, expecting that to be enough, insane

  65. Chances are greater that if Mr Bush had dumped on Mr Rumsfeld a month prior to the Election, rather than the day after, a lot of those races could have gone the other way.

  66. Catherine

    I think it is quite apparent to most of us that Teresita has some "issues". I think the issues are deeply psychological and profound.
    She has been exposed more times a stripper at a cheap gin joint.
    She's like a feral psycho if there can be such a thing. Is she mentally ill?
    You did a marvelous job of giving her what in basketball is called a facial. That's when someone dunks the ball and another player catches it on the downstroke right in the kisser...very smooth. It'll make the highlight reel.

  67. newt has come out strong on that 'timing' issue. Really strong--sez 15 plus seats, easy. Says it was a 'candor' fault.

  68. Now I object to Federal funds going to the "Approved" Points of Light. To not defending the border, to expanded Federal health & drug benefits.
    To the RoE, Catch & Release and the "Long War" in Iraq

    But, now, rat, are you closer, or farther away, from what you wanted?

  69. maybe we're headed here, to a "two-and-a-half party system" ?

  70. Habu,

    I only personally know field hockey terms, but you explained BB pretty well. Wish I didn't have low tolerance for glib slander and rhetorical contradiction, even it it does have "style" of a sort. You pretty much call it like you see it, come what may, and never deny it.

  71. My District and State sent the GOP back, Mr Shadegg and Mr Kyl.

  72. rufus said:

    >>(I don't look)

    >Then, how Does you know?

    Because some of the appreciative commentary hints that there might be more than just articles here.

  73. I'm guilty of voting for third party candidates on occasions, but only when I'm sure it would make no difference in the outcome in my district. I think maybe even that is wrong, as it encourages the third party to keep on going, organizing, a third party that I don't think could possibly run a complex society like ours.

  74. Libertarians like small government and low taxes; so, when given the chance to swing the election by deciding between a party that has an average voting record of seventy (out of a perfect 100) or a party that has an average score of 12 they of course vote for


  75. Now let me explain for the benefit of those that are arithmetically challenged; there are basically 3 ways to vote for the party with the FUCKING SCORE OF FUCKING 12. They are:

    (1) Stay Home

    (2) Vote for said Party, or

    (3) Vote for a party that's never gotten more than 3% of the vote in any election, and therefore deny your vote to the party with the score of 70.

    Any Questions?

  76. No, rufus, in Montana 10% of voters, those that voted Bush in '04 voted Dem in '06.
    Were those all little "L" librarians or disaffected Republicans. If they were all librarians the GOP abandoned them, but I doubt that they were.

    It is the fault of the Republicans that they chased away their previous voters, not the voters fault for looking elsewhere for better results.

    In the US system the votes are for individuals, the Iraqi shitheads vote for lists.
    Choose the process you prefer.

    The Iraqi need immigrants for those that prefer lists.

  77. The librarians are being made a strawman for Republican failures.
    It does not wash, the numbers prove it.

  78. I've never known anyone who knew much about politics that said, "I vote for the man."

    The surest indication (admittedly, not perfect) of what a man believes, and of how he will vote on the issues that are important to me, is what party he belongs to.

    Yes, I vote the list, and not the individual liar. I know that even a "reasonable" democrat is going to caucus with the Dems, and is going to be one more vote for Pelosi, Hastings, Waxman, Dingell, etc. running the show.

  79. Bet you felt the same way about Nader voters in Florida, also, aye?

    Or does the idea of President Gore make voting priciples acceptable?

  80. I was thankful to the high heavens that there were some ultra-liberal idiots that kept Gore out of the White House.

    Now, I'm sad that there are some utopian, idiot conservatives who put the Dems in charge of my children, and grand-children's safety, and future prosperity.

  81. In CT, then, rufus, you'd have voted with the 10% of GOPers and not Mr Lieberman. He'll vote for Mr Reid, as would have Mr Lamont.

    But the Republican, in CY, was a wasted vote, no?

  82. What makes you think those folk in Montana or Missouri were or are conservatives, rufus?

    Because they voted for Bush in '04?

  83. Let's face it. Bush could not have picked too better candidates to run against, especially Kerry.

    It is going to be very interesting to see what the Democrats have in store for Iraq. They will have to start defending that next summer.

  84. I guess I would have voted for Lieberman in Ct. I would never waste my vote on a man who had No Chance of winning in a 3 way race. The money phrae is No Chance. I must admit it would have been a tough call, though.

  85. Who would you have voted for in Virginia?

  86. It'll be all but done by August, less than 45,000 troops incountry by November '07.
    The schedule will be laid out in the reatuhorization of the UN occupation. It will have been a year since the Election, there in Iraq. Their Government has emerged, our reasons for being there, per US Law, have been fulfilled. That will be the Baker/ Hamilton & Democrat line.
    Mr Bush will not stand against it, he can't. Mr Gates is on board, as is 41.

  87. The three biggest losers in the election were:


  88. rufus said:

    The surest indication (admittedly, not perfect) of what a man believes, and of how he will vote on the issues that are important to me, is what party he belongs to.

    Some say the Ross Perot voters are still out there, and last Tuesday they swung over to the Dems because the Pubs weren't addressing their issues on federal red ink and the "giant sucking sound to the south" taking away good jobs.

  89. In Va, Deuce? Why I would have voted for Allen. Rat picked the only race in history in which I would have voted any way but Republican.

    I thoroughly believe that all politicians are sleaze. It's just that some will vote the way I want more often than others. Most of the time the Republican Sleaze will vote my perceived interests more often than the Democratic Sleaze.

  90. 2164th wrote:

    The three biggest losers in the election were:


    It follows, then, that the three biggest winners were:

    Hillary (by not sticking her foot in her mouth and shooting it)
    Grandma Pelosi
    Mucktada al-Sadr

  91. Based solely on the Iraq War, for Webb.
    The debate and Mr Allen's advocating Force Protection as the primary mission.

    I think we should fight a real war, in Iraq.
    But that was not one of the options that either candidate presented.

    No half step wars for me, go for broke or don't go at all.
    There is no chance to escalate the situation, so the war is over.

    Now we'll negotiate a stay behind force or not, depending on our allies needs and ours.

  92. Giant sucking sound? That's caused by 4.4% sucking those who don't really want to work all that badly being sucked into the work force.

    The Red Ink was red; but, it is down to 1.9% of GDP which is historically low, and is being made much, much worse by the fact that we're fighting two foreign wars, and giving another 50 Million a year, or so, to a bunch of people that were dumb enough to live below sea level and to insist that the crooks they elected properly maintain the levees.

  93. Several years ago, a local (self) important Libertarian who was running for state office told me in conversation that even trash pick-up should not be local-government managed. Said a city block should be capable of organizing itself and contracting with a collector, were it so inclined to arrange for it on a joint basis. Otherwise, he contended, individuals can take care of all services or needs by themselves without burdensome government. I asked whether his ideal wasn’t just a form of mini-government or even micro, and much, much less efficient.

    I’m a Repub, full disclosure, and not as a loyalist but as someone who doesn’t trust a party that thought in the 60s through 80s that Communism was just “another way” and that Europe was a Socialist utopia we should emulate when possible. And I couldn’t agree more with Rufus and Bobalharb about the impact of voting “choices,” as if each line on a ballot were actually a choice, given the certainty of Congressional voting blocs. Third party is dangerous conceit. It can’t get elected much less run the country. All it can do is squirrel or deliver elections one way of another. And now we’ve been delivered unto the Democrat beast, G-d and divinity save us all!

  94. But, how can anyone smart enough to find the polling place not be smart enough to know that on every spending bill it's Always the Dems who want to spend more?

  95. Excellent Catherine. Exactly what I woulda said, and how I woulda said it, if I was smart enough.

  96. Well I'll be sure to tell the boys, at the next Whig nominating convention.

    Both major Parties are but difeerent sides of the same coin.
    Track the growth chart for the US from 1776 'til today.
    Onward and upward, through thick and thin. A minor setback or two along the way, but an impressive upward path, regardless of who was in Washington.

    The country is much more than the Federal Government. It's a Government that poorly represents its' people, by design.

    Most places where the people are more directly represented do poorly.

  97. No, Rat, the politicians are the same; the parties are as different as night and day.

  98. dawn and sundown, rufus, the light's the same, but the hour is not.

    Couple of years ago, the discussion was the lack of the Administration's articulation of policy.

    Then we had the "Who is the Enemy"
    and lack of clarity in the War.

    The Economy is in recession, according to about half those polled. Another quarter were not sure, one way or another.

    It'll be interesting to watch the K Street shuffle. Those GOP backpacked lobbiests may be out of the loop for a cycle or two.

    And it's maalcontented conservative that are blamed? That is really a rich pudding to peddle.

    The Republic will survive, or habu gets his way. But that's grows less likely with each passing day.

    24 million veterans in the USA, same as the illegal population, according to that latest Congressional Report.
    The number of Vets is decreasing, the illegal immigrant population is exploding.

    The migrant populations' growth is just a symptom of the current state of functional Governmental collapse.

  99. Nice phrase, Rat; you made me giggle.

    You're right; I'm a little grouchy, tonight; my babydoll's got the stomach flu, and I can't do much but sympathise. And, the Republic Will Survive.

    Sometimes we get used to having our way too long, and we get all upset when reality whacks us upside the head and says, "Did you think it would last forever, idjit?"

  100. I left out the money quote:

    That is really a rich pudding to peddle.

  101. This just in....."Former DCI agrees to
    agrees to travel to
    Europe to stand trial"...admitting that "I forgot to tell my guys to change tail numbers between torture flights and besides that I hired guys that were too dumb to realize that they should'nt use their cell phones whilst in indian country " Later heard muttering "hell Hillary told me that all I had to do was furnish clean interns......"

  102. Our NATO and bi-lateral status of forces agreements are likely to be very significant barriers to any prosecution by a NATO member of a US citizen for actions taken with the support of the US government. Rumsfeld likely is covered by these agreements; this is why we have them, so that our forces are not hounded by kangaroo courts oversees in the areas where we serve. You may also be aware that when the Int' Court of Justice was empowered in Belgium, we signed bi-lateral waivers of their authority with almost every country in the world with whom we have normal diplomatic relations, if we did not have a status of forces agreement conferring the same rights. So this action by Germany seems pre-ordained to be a political farce.

  103. Nice discussion--my wi-fi crapped out on me or I'd been chiming in Huzzah's for the political theories of catherine & rufus.

    I get rat's points, always have, but there is a line between the perfect and the practical, and the perfectionists gave us Perot, who in turn gave us, via 43% of the '92 popular vote, the 1992-2016 Clinton Dynasty, which will have dismantled, thru direct Dem policy and a strong MSM-led negative pull on Pub policy, everything those Perot voters in '92 stood for.

    Why dontcha cut off your nose to spite your face, my grandmammy used to ask me.

  104. And rat, it ain't the librarians per se that are getting the hot light, it's the whole notion of protest voting in a 50/50 polity.

    And of course, I too loved Nader in 2000. But now the shoe is on the other foot, and I'm pissed.

    There is no reason to like Protest-06 just because one liked Nader-00.

    That's religion, not politics.

    Were I a Dem, I'd be p'o'd at Nader.

  105. The point is, buddy, that in Montana the folk were so p'o'd at Mr Bush and Company they did not even need a "figurehead". It was a grassroots revolt