COLLECTIVE MADNESS


“Soft despotism is a term coined by Alexis de Tocqueville describing the state into which a country overrun by "a network of small complicated rules" might degrade. Soft despotism is different from despotism (also called 'hard despotism') in the sense that it is not obvious to the people."

Thursday, August 12, 2010

Getting Nervous in Iraq




Iraqi army not ready to take over until 2020, says country's top general

Lieutenant General Babakir Zebari calls for US army to stay beyond Obama's 2011 deadline for complete withdrawal

Matthew Weaver and agencies
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 12 August 2010 08.20 BST


The Iraqi army is not ready to take over responsibility from the Americans, its most senior general has warned, as the White House insists the US army is on course to end its combat role in the country by the end of this month.

Lieutenant General Babakir Zebari told a defence conference in Baghdad that the Iraqi army would be unable to cope without backing from US forces.

He suggested the Iraqi army would be incapable of assuming control for another decade.

"If I were asked about the withdrawal, I would say to politicians: the US army must stay until the Iraqi army is fully ready in 2020," he said.

This is not the first time Zebari has said Iraq needs the Americans to stay longer, but the timing of his comments makes them significant.

Barack Obama has pledged to hand over military responsibility to the Iraqi government by the end of the August as part of plan to reduce troop levels to 50,000.

Zebari said the reduction in US troop numbers was "going well" but only because "they are still here". He predicted trouble next year when all the remaining US troops are due to leave.

"The problem will start after 2011 – the politicians must find other ways to fill the void after 2011," he said.

Last night the White House said Obama was satisfied that the US could finish its combat role in Iraq safely this month and meet the deadline for removing troops from the country by the end of 2011.

The president was briefed on withdrawal by his national security team and the top US commander in Iraq, Ray Odierno. The White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said: "The president heard directly from General Odierno, who said that we were on target to complete our drawdown by the end of August. Already we have removed over 80,000 troops from Iraq since President Obama took office."

Violence in Iraq has fallen since the peak of sectarian warfare in 2006-2007, but in July the number of violent civilian deaths from daily bombings, shootings and other attacks rose sharply.

US officials expect violence to worsen as insurgents exploit the failure of political factions to agree on a new government after an inconclusive parliamentary election in March. This week US-backed militia leaders have said al-Qaida is attempting to make a comeback in Iraq.

"There continues to be terrorists in Iraq. There continues to be acts of violence," deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes said. But they had not affected "the positive trends" in Iraq and the overall level of violence had gone down, Rhodes said.

The president received an update from the vice-president, Joe Biden, and Christopher Hill, the US ambassador to Iraq, on Iraq's troubled efforts to form a new government.

Biden's national security adviser, Tony Blinken, said frustration was building among Iraqis over failure to form a governing coalition. "There is a sense of urgency to move forward and get a government formed," he said. "We really believe there is forward movement. But it's not up to us."





164 comments:

  1. Iraq for the Iraqis.

    Should have been from the get go.

    ReplyDelete
  2. The question is:

    "Is Iraq better off than it was seven years ago?"

    That is discussed at the 10 minute mark on the video.

    Saddam provided internal stability and through repression maintained a secular police state.

    Saddam also got over a million killed between adventures in Kuwait and Iran.

    My question: "Is The United States better off than it was seven years ago?"

    ReplyDelete
  3. My question: "Is The United States better off than it was seven years ago?"

    Oh, hell, yes.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I honestly believe they were scared to death that Saddam was going to stumble around, and get some kind of a bomb. They only got authorization for Desert Storm/Shield by Two (2) Votes when he didn't have a bomb.

    They knew that if he did get one the Persian Gulf Oil was his. Approx 40% of the World's Supply. Couldn't be allowed to happen.

    Or, at least, that's what we thought at the time.

    ReplyDelete
  5. That's exactly right, Ruf. That's what we thought at the time and for years prior going all the way back to the '80's.

    The man was a menace to whirled society and he got what was coming to him.

    ReplyDelete
  6. I certainly would not want to go back to seven years ago.

    Sooner stick my head in the oven.

    ReplyDelete
  7. He needed killin'.

    ReplyDelete
  8. They knew that if he did get one the Persian Gulf Oil was his. Approx 40% of the World's Supply. Couldn't be allowed to happen.

    The world's supply. That's rich. Chavez has 1.5 million barrels of America's daily supply. Suppose he got the bomb, would he tack a surcharge on his oil? Nigeria would undercut his prices. Russia had the bomb since 1949, could they use it to extort money? They would if they could, but you can't. The only place where that is working in Pakistan, where they say unless the US gives them billions of dollars to look for bin Laden, the Taliban will overrun their bases and take their nukes. And we believe it.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Not at that price, he didn't.

    You know how many people in this world need killin'?

    Don't even get me started.

    ReplyDelete
  10. But, fellas, Saddam, he was deposed, captured and then dead as a door nail, years ago.

    Seven Years ago.


    Seven Years ago.


    Is the US better off now, with Mr Obama as President as a result of the "Long War" and the public rejection of Mr Bush and GOP policies?

    We could have been right where we are, today, on the 23JUN2003.

    Just had to have those local elections go forward, instead of being stopped by US Marines at gun point.

    That was the turning point.

    Are we really better off with an empowered Persia?

    ReplyDelete
  11. It was not the invasion, nor the toppling of Saddam that was ever at issue.

    It was the conduct of the occupation that empowered Mr Obama and his royal court.

    It was the decisions made in June of 2003 that spoiled the pudding, domestically.

    ReplyDelete
  12. following up on Rat's observation:

    "Is Iran better off than they were seven years ago?"

    ReplyDelete
  13. Yeah, that was a bad call. No doubt. Screwed ol' bowwow, we did.

    ReplyDelete
  14. "Is Iran better off than they were seven years ago?"

    It's an interesting question especially given Jeffrey Goldberg's piece in The Atlantic and the whole Will We Or Won't We/Will They Or Won't They question.

    I hardly even think about it anymore.

    ReplyDelete
  15. It matters, none at all, if Iran is better off or not.

    It certainly was not the question I asked, with regards those Persians.

    I'd say the United States, on balance, is not better today than it was seven years ago.

    The trillion USD in debt that we've accumulated to finance US operations while we've been on the Iraq Adventure was misspent, wasted.

    To say the least.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Quirk,

    Re: Liberty and "I do as I please"


    Yes, yes you most certainly do, as do your authorities on the accident. That has been my point all along.

    Whether I work for the government has nothing to do with the facts of the case. On 13 occasions, no culpability was found.


    Quirk, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. There is no shortage of real bones to pick with Israel; you and those like you choose to ignore the evidence and outcomes because you keep hoping that somehow a magic bullet or smoking gun will materialize. You even make up tall tales of dead guys giving secrets to a single person and sell this as definitive. It is such a lack of credibility that has prevented either civil or criminal action to succeed.

    Sorry about the links - I will see what I can do about them.

    In essence, Dr. Nowicki, who was in a naval spy plane over the area of the attack and translated the conversations of the Israelis, says your author is wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  17. The alliances we've cemented with the Semites of Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf, since 13SEP2001, are not really in what I'd consider the best long term interests of the United States.

    But we are there, shoulder to shoulder with them, none the less.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Our military protecting the heroin trade flowing out of Afghanistan, not what I'd be having those soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines tasked with.

    Especially with aQ still operating just across the mountain frontier.

    Nope, we've become a toothless tiger, in Southwest Asia. A worse spot than we were in seven years ago, when hope of victory still sprung eternal.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Quirk,

    One other thing - you guys have stomped your little hairy feet and held your breathes to gain attention and force both governments to give you 13 investigations since 1967.

    Thousands of pages of once top secret documentation has been released over the past few years, with my NSA link containing it in the entirety.

    Even with all this, you guys keep drilling dry holes - 13 at last count.

    Thought of as baseball, my team has won 13 World Series, your team has won 0. You guys are just sore losers, but losers nonetheless.

    ReplyDelete
  20. To replace One barrel/day of imported oil requires about $45,000.00 Capital Investment. To replace 12 Million barrels/day would be $540 Billion. That's to replace Every Single Drop.

    If we had replaced all ex. oil from the Americas (Ven, Mex, Canada) it would be $360 Billion.

    But, no; We blew an extra Trillion, or so, and we're still in the same sorry dependent shape. Crap.

    ReplyDelete
  21. And, we collected Zero Income Taxes from Exxon last year.

    ReplyDelete
  22. The Wahhabi won the first seven years of your "War with Islam".

    They're set to win the next decade, too.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Those Semites just kickin' our ass, both here and over there.

    ReplyDelete
  24. desert rat said...
    Those Semites just kickin' our ass, both here and over there.



    **********************TROLL ALERT********************

    ReplyDelete
  25. Trish said to Quirk, "he's into real estate" (more or less)


    Yes, he is. However, it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time.

    ...checked this morning...
    It's still Israel 13 and QuirkCo 0

    ReplyDelete
  26. Never really interested in the USS Liberty incident, I went looking around the internet last night for stuff related.

    Ended up at the site of the guy who stood up DHS. And an old acquaintance of my father's.

    It was fascinating.

    ReplyDelete
  27. It's still Israel 13 and QuirkCo 0

    34 crewmen killed,
    171 crewmen wounded

    ReplyDelete
  28. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  29. WiO,

    Quirk has placed great faith in the work of Mr. James Bamford concerning the attack on the USS Liberty. He “assumes” that any statement made by Bamford must be a “fact” rather than an “opinion”. You and I both understand Quirk’s motive. However, Bamford is a liar, as his correspondence with Dr. Marvin Nowicki will show. (Nowicki was on site at the time and worked on the translations of the Israeli traffic for NSA.)

    email from Dr. Marvin Nowicki to James Bamford (Quirk’s authoritative information font)

    Note: para 2, last sentence: “…our intercepts, never before made public, show the attack to be an accident on the part of the Israelis…”

    Excerpts of Nowicki’s correspondence with James Bamford follow.

    “In a period of a week or two we exchanged e-mails at a furious pace, trying to gauge what each other knew about the attack. First assuring him I am not an Israeli hawk, only a former CTI who was trained in Hebrew and who worked the Israeli military problem for several years, I told him the attack was a mistake. Did he know a VQ-2 EC121M aircraft was there that day? No, he didn't know that, and didn't think anyone else knew of it either. He ostensibly contacted Jim Ennes, who likewise said he did not know of our presence. I asked [deleted] how did the Liberty crew know the Israelis attacked them intentionally. His reply: "the Israelis saw our flag." How did you know that, [deleted]? Well, someone in the CT crew heard the Israelis talking on their radios about the American flag. But [deleted], I reminded him, the Liberty had no Hebrew linguists aboard (she embarked only NSG and NSA Arabic linguists in Rota), so how did you know the Israeli aircraft and boats were discussing the American flag? He didn't know, so again he asked Ennes. Ennes responded that it was his understanding the Israelis used English during their attacks. My rejoinder to [deleted] was: this could not be the case; in all my years of working the Israeli air problem, their military personnel spoke only Hebrew. The only time the Israelis ever (repeat ever) used English was after they started receiving American F4 and A4 aircraft in 1969/70 (well after the Six Day War), and those conversations were limited to maintenance check-flights probably when American advisors were nearby. English was never used in combat situations involving those aircraft or any others to my knowledge. Besides, our VQ tapes and voice transcripts showed only Hebrew spoken that day during the attack.”


    “In conclusion, even without taking into account the VQ intercepts, I think Jim Ennes's book makes a strong case the Israelis mistakenly attacked the USS Liberty. The main reason is because they mistook her for an enemy ship. Consequently, I agree with Ennes's citation on page 154. He says the Naval Attachè in Tel Aviv evaluated the attack as "...erroneous attack from trigger happy eagerness to glean some portion of the great victory being shared by IDF Army and Air Force and which the Navy was not sharing." The sabras carried out their duty. Other evidence of a mistaken attack follows in the next enclosure”



    “But who was most responsible? At the risk of being despised by the Liberty crew, I can overlook the Israelis for their part. The young sabras were determined to save a fragile nation in a time of war. Complicating matters for them, they possessed imperfect intelligence information on this mystery ship in their waters…
    On a last note, like Mr. Ennes, who writes his book because the story "cries out to be told" and because he feels he is uniquely qualified to tell all, I too feel qualified with a story to be told. Unfortunately our stories contradict. While Mr. Ennes and the Liberty crew had the misfortune of enduring the consequences of the attack, they did not know their attackers. I did…
    Nowicki Documents

    ReplyDelete
  30. T,

    Your point?

    The Battle of New Orleans was fought by mistake, the war had ended unbeknownst to the combatants.

    You used to be better.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Trish,

    Re: disinterest Liberty

    Why, I am shocked!

    ReplyDelete
  32. I can understand David Dinkins being at Rangel's big bash. After getting caught not paying his taxes, he defended himself by saying he didn't violate the law - he only failed to comply with it!
    from the comments

    Rangel lapped it up, telling the crowd, "This damn sure ain't no funeral, is it?"

    At the end of the festivities in the Grand Ballroom, an emotional Rangel told the audience, "Please remember me in your prayers. It helps."

    Rangel -- who has been slapped with 13 ethics charges by the House ethics committee -- called the occasion "an experience I'll never, ever forget.

    "I can't tell you how moving this has been," he said.

    He left the stage dancing


    Rangel's Birthday Bash

    Sorry to break in on things serious, but, really, godd ol' Charlie.

    ReplyDelete
  33. "Why, I am shocked!"

    : )

    Well, anyway, you and I having nothing better to do, we can make this a USS Liberty thread.

    ReplyDelete
  34. The real question is: "are YOU better off than YOU were 7 years ago"?

    ReplyDelete
  35. I think it was an accident cause I can't figure out why or what they'd get out of attacking an American ship that could possibly make it worth it.


    Answer to Gag: for me, it's the same old holding pattern, more time than money, as they say.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Yes.

    But it would be interesting to have all Barflies chime in on that.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Trish,

    Repeatedly over the years, have I provided a score of links leading to "evidence" on the friendly fire incident concerning the Liberty. In response, people like DR and Quirk provided selected excerpts from books detailing the feelings of those aboard the Liberty, David Dukoids and hucksters. These "feelings" and/or "prejudices" they equate with "evidence".

    This matter has been investigated not less than 13 times, on each occasion because of "new" information availability. Well, at the end of the day, the outcomes have all been the same: Israel did NOT knowingly attack an American vessel. The score, for those counting, is 13-0, or about a perfect football season.

    There really isn't much else to be said, unless you have also found "new" information.

    As to Monty Python, yes, there is a comparison: Those who have had 13 limbs severed by honorable men, without themselves having stricken a blow, insist on continuing the futile fight. Quirk is one such. He, as they, projects his own "feelings" into a matter of settled law. To get us, he will have to find another pony.

    Now, I am off to work.

    ReplyDelete
  38. "There really isn't much else to be said, unless you have also found 'new' information."

    Well, allen, I am new to this whole Liberty thing and I just thought we might exchange material and commentary on the matter. I'll show you mine, you show me yours. Etc.

    It's not like an alliance is at stake, for crying out loud. It was how many fucking years ago, after all?

    ReplyDelete
  39. Still carping Allen?

    One would think you would be out selling some houses.

    "You even make up tall tales of dead guys giving secrets to a single person and sell this as definitive..."

    Obviously, untrue. Yet you constantly call me a liar.

    I do, however, believe the (purported) story of Commander Lewis. But then so do a lot of other prominant people inide and outside of government and in the military.

    So does J.Q. "Tony" Hart, then a chief petty officer assigned to a U.S. Navy relay station in Morocco that handled communications between Washington and the 6th Fleet. Just as I quoted him in yesterday's post. Just as he was quoted in the Chicago Tribune article you gave me in your link from yesterday.

    However, I fear you merely bring up this issue as a red herring. As I've pointed out before, whether or not the White House ordered the planes back or not is irrelavant to the issue at hand: Did Israel knowingly attack a US ship, the Liberty?

    "In essence, Dr. Nowicki, who was in a naval spy plane over the area of the attack and translated the conversations of the Israelis, says your author is wrong."

    You seem to make a big deal of the fact that Nowicki was a spy. Not unusual since he workd for NSA. The Liberty was an NSA spy ship.

    But to the main point, it is true that Mr. Nowicki disagrees with "my" author. However, my author also disagrees with Mr. Nowicki as indicated in the post from Mr. Bramford that I provided.

    More importantly others disagree with Mr. Nowicki including Oliver Kirby, the NSA's deputy director for operations at the time of the Liberty attack who indicates he saw the transcriptions of the radio transmissions indicating that Israel was well aware they were attacking a US vessel. This is the same quote I posted yesterday. The quote pulled from the reference document you provided.

    "Thousands of pages of once top secret documentation has been released over the past few years, with my NSA link containing it in the entirety.

    Yet as far as I know FOIA requests submitted by proponents of both sides of this argument have never been completely responded to. Mr. Nowicki has complained about the same thing.

    (continued below)

    .

    ReplyDelete
  40. (USS Liberty con’d)


    As I've been writing this I notice you have put up another post listing Mr. Nowicki's position. Yesterday, I posted Mr.
    Bramfords letter disputing that position. Above I have referenced people quoted as being 180 degrees from Mr. Nowicki's position.

    I guess your next comment will be tha Mr. Nowicki's opinion is superior to my quoted sources and that i merely cherry picked those sources. Hell, you gave me the sources.

    In all of this discussion, you ignore the position and opinions of the Liberty's crew. After all this unfolded over hours. It was not some random drive by. It was not some game either.

    "Thought of as baseball, my team has won 13 World Series, your team has won 0.

    Interesting way to phrase it considering the 34 lives lost and over 100 injured.

    I have in the past provided you with evidence that the initial hearing on this matter was rushed, incomplete, and that the conclusion was set before the hearing ever began. The balance of the hearings, three of which were run by Israel if I recall, were mere reiterations of what was reported in the first. In other words like CBO reports, garbage in garbage out.

    You continue to make the point that the government wouldn't lie to us. Yet I have pointed out numerous occasions when in fact the government has lied to us especially in matters involving perceived national security and foreign policy decisions.

    The latest example being the Nixon/Lavelle affair where Nixon, Kissinger, the Joint Chiefs of Staff and various Staff officers lied to us (if only by omission) in hearings at the Pentagon and in Congress.

    Yet you still bounce about like a little girl shouting "But...But...But..."

    As I've said a number of times before it is pointless to continue this argument. Neither of is is like to change our minds.

    You can side with Israel and claim "I won" all you want.

    I'm comfortable siding with the crew of the Liberty.

    .

    ReplyDelete
  41. One more point about about "my" author.

    It was you that brought up "my" author.

    I assume because you had Nowicki's rebuttal of "my" author's book.

    If you are really interested I would be willing to provide you with a reading/viewing list that does not include "my" author.


    .

    ReplyDelete
  42. "I think it was an accident cause I can't figure out why or what they'd get out of attacking an American ship that could possibly make it worth it...

    There are a number reasons offered for the attack Bob. You need to remember this was during the six day war and you had an American spy ship in the Mediterranean monitoring transmissions from the countries involved including Israel.

    The reason proposed by Bramford in his book is explained somewhat in the post I put up yesterday. There are others.


    .

    ReplyDelete
  43. And I buy the local paper, turn to the local news and read a very large article about moose numbers dropping dramatically---I won't bore you with the details, you got the picture. Wolves. Moose, by the way, are kinda scarce around here anyway.

    I agree with Rufus, we're the dumbest people on the planet.

    ReplyDelete
  44. I would be interested, Quirk, in the reasons advanced by the intentional attack advocates as to what Israel, or rather somebody(s) in the chain of command, thought they were up to, the why of it.

    If you have time sometime today.

    I realize it wasn't just a simple one pass deal.

    Headin' to Moscow.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Quirk,

    evidence:

    Law The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.

    Quirk, note "admissible". The opinions of you and others have been found wanting in 13 previous venues, requiring "evidence". This, not that the venues or I, for that matter, are unsympathetic, is the cause of your frustration. Yep, evidence is the problem.

    The "big deal", Quirk, is competence (Dr. Nowicki) and evidence (NSA and CSS). Both have been linked for your convenience. Your side screamed for years, with justification, that evidence was being withheld. Well, now it's out there, including the testimony of the only two men to actually hear in real time the Israeli transmissions, and you still don't like it. You may wallow in it to your heart's content, wailing Jeremiads for another 40 years, but you will not find the facts you need as evidence. It was an accident and a tragedy, nothing more.

    Ignore the Nowicki and NSA & CSS links if you like and continue putting up unlinked "quotes" of hearsay and the alleged confessions of dead guys, if you like. I have no interest in reading authors who have been entirely unsuccessful in doing anything more than creating conspiracy theories, i.e. when their grandiose theories and speculations and traumatic testimony (some of the least reliable, by the way) are put to the test of comprehensive objective review, and they LOSE, they claim victimization. Yes, the old victimization card is revolting. The score, again, is 13-0, but these guys are victims of "higher powers" who have somehow kept the truth from emerging. Hmmm...I'm thinking meds.

    "It was how many fucking years ago, after all?', Trish has asked in her own special way. Forty. And your team has not scored. Of course, there is the UN, where it is almost a certainty that you could get the result you seek.

    If my company tried to take an enemy position and failed abysmally 13 times, I'd say something was seriously flawed in our approach. Wouldn't you? You might give the Liberty accident some thought with that in mind.

    On the other hand, if it makes the Liberty Club and you happy in convention annually to accuse Israel of a crime, who am I to stop all those warm fuzzy feelings of betrayal and the beer.

    Have a nice day.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Look at it this way, Quirk, you got the Nice Day.

    ReplyDelete
  47. If you have time sometime today.

    Bob I have avoided getting into the rationale for Israel's attack mainly to avoid the Allen's standard assertion that anyone saying anything negative about Israel must be a "David Dukoid and huckster", a stupid and obvious ad hominem logical fallacy but still a distraction.

    I've mentioned Bramford's thesis. For another I suggest you go to the WIKI sight "The U.S.S. Liberty Incident". It provides a general listing of all the arguments on both sides of this incident. Obviously, each of the areas in dispute that are listed have proponents from both sides of the argument. That's why the argument continues. (Of course, as Allen has pointed out those listed who think that Isreal did intentionally attck a US ship are obviously David Ducoids and hucksters).

    At any rate, you will see in the article another proposed reason for the attack involving Israel's need to keep its plans on invading the Golan Heights secret.


    I spent a good deal of time in a whole series of posts I put out here some months ago listing references and videos. I'm not going invest that time again. Especially when Allen provides me all the info I need in the posts he puts up.


    If you want more info than the WIKI overview I'd suggest you go from there to the web.

    (Gotta buy a new microwave)

    ..

    ReplyDelete
  48. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  49. Good lord, and still he carps offering the Jesse Jackson argument, "You guys are all David Dukoids and hucksters."

    Once again he claims that his witness is unimpeachable, a fact belied by references and URL's listed in his own post and published in a Jewish paper, Haartz.

    One suspects Allen doesn't even read his own posts.

    Instead of accepting that this is a legitimate argument on both sides, he argues that it is merely a "conspiracy theory" again ignoring the evidence I laid out that sometime there are conspiracy theories simple because there are in fact conspiracies and cover-ups.

    However, having me and Allen trade insults really contributes little more to the conversation at this point.

    If inquiring minds wish to know all they have to do is visit the internet. It's not like information is lacking.

    .

    ReplyDelete
  50. Blogger trish said...

    My question: "Is The United States better off than it was seven years ago?"

    Oh, hell, yes


    A mighty definitive statement there trish but I would be interested as to your reasons. How is the current situation better for the US then it was before Saddam was deposed? It seems we have greater ownership of the problems of the middle east coupled with the expenses involved in that ownership but I fail to see how it has improved the US position in general. I hope you choose to shed some light on the matter.

    ReplyDelete
  51. The former president is gone.

    ReplyDelete
  52. That is a good thing, I grant, but on balance do you think he really was that much of a problem which couldn't be dealt with in other ways? We have incurred some mighty troublesome expenses to rid the world of one man and his regime. I think, on balance, it has not worked out to US advantage. I mean look at that tar baby we still hold responsibility for - they haven't even formed a government these how many months since the election? But, hey, they voted at least.

    ReplyDelete
  53. "That is a good thing, I grant, but on balance do you think he really was that much of a problem..."

    Trish's head explodes.

    ReplyDelete
  54. In the end his bark was worse than his bite especially as far as the US was concerned. He was a nasty man but look at the crap we've taken for deposing him - years occupying the country, thousands of US kids dead,and empowered Iran, and no upside free oil. All because of one guy - c'mon what is it that makes your head explode?

    ReplyDelete
  55. Allen: You used to be better.

    Is there something wrong with my casualty figures?

    ReplyDelete
  56. Quirk: You need to remember this was during the six day war and you had an American spy ship in the Mediterranean monitoring transmissions from the countries involved including Israel.

    You need to remember it was also the Cold War and the Arabs used Soviet radar, the ship was doing wartime ESM, look it up. And oh yeah, the electronic counter-measures on the planes we gave to Israel came to you courtesy of elint-gathering ships like the USS Liberty. You're welcome.

    If I was twenty years older it would have been my ass in that sling, I was a CTT.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Quirk,

    Others do not agree with me on the Liberty. Only you and DR have been of accused by me of neo-Nazi leanings and Dukoid tendencies. So anxious are you that you will grab at any straw, bob of "nigger" fame. Wow, this ought to be a real treat.


    You remind me of one of those poor delusional souls who knows he was abducted by aliens and the government is trying to silence him. If you Google, as I just did, "alien abduction", 797,000 links are available. Nonetheless, Quirk, where are all those aliens - sorry, that's right, The Men in Black I & II covered the cover up.

    I am pleased that you brought up General Lavelle case, initially linked here by me. Yes, the government did lie, as governments do. However, with the right paperwork two military types got the information that redeemed the good General. It took them one (1) try. That is what evidence does. They are 1/1. You remain 13/0. The "evidence" made their success possible. The failure of your team should tell you something - Oh, that's right, AIPAC controls the USA and every administration since Johnson's has been complicit in conspiracy.

    Give me a break and give you a pill!

    ReplyDelete
  58. One other thing - you guys have stomped your little hairy feet and held your breathes to gain attention and force both governments to give you 13 investigations since 1967.

    I think the attack on a US ship and the killing of American seaman is worthy of as many investigations as is necessary. It is not trivial. The incident was at a minimum a tragic friendly fire incident or as others have claimed something worse, far worse.

    There is nothing unusual about the military or governments of any nation trying to cover-up. There is nothing unique about conspiracy theories. There are those that are convinced 911 was caused by the CIA, the US Government and of course Israel.

    I do not believe we have the complete story on the Liberty.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Most adults still alive and in good health are better off than they were seven years ago. Any more questions?

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  60. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  61. But is the US? I find it interesting, astonishing really, that you two think we are better off for having invaded and occupying Iraq given the outcomes. By implication you would do it all over again given the chance.

    ReplyDelete
  62. You remind me of one of those poor delusional souls who knows we rolled up every fucking Israeli asset in Iran.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Quirk quoted: "Thought of as baseball, my team has won 13 World Series, your team has won 0.

    Interesting way to phrase it considering the 34 lives lost and over 100 injured.


    That's exactly what I thought, but all I got was "T you used to be better than this".

    ReplyDelete
  64. Deuce,

    or aliens?

    No, the killing of American service members is not trivial, that's why I know we are going to hear a lot more about Fort Hood than heretofore.

    If cost is no object to finding answers to complaints, why the criticism of Obama and company.

    By the way, I do not need you or another person on this blog telling me about the importance of American service members. Go back in your archive. You will find that while you and others were talking seriously about "dick licking", "fucking" and "pussy", I was carrying water for the troops.

    ReplyDelete
  65. "However, with the right paperwork two military types got the information that redeemed the good General. It took them one (1) try. That is what evidence does..

    Your mental process is amazing Allen. Truly a thing to behold.

    It took them one try?

    You are incredible.

    It took almost forty years. After hearings by Congress and the Pentagon failed to come up with the truth. The guys found it by accident while researching the Nixon tapes. They weren't even looking for it.

    Your posts typically solicit a wide range of emotions albeit in a circular fashion.

    On initial blush they are

    Laughable

    They continue until they become

    Pathetic

    They often border on the

    Absurd

    And to anyone with a minimal sense of irony they return to

    Laughable.

    :)


    Hang in there. You continue to amuse.


    .

    ReplyDelete
  66. Hey, Moron,

    38 years is what it took, but it was done. Your team has yet to make a dent in anything other than your skulls against the wall. Your futile efforts to besmirch your betters has cost millions for the dry hole investigations. You "victims" can take another 40 years to whine, but you will NOT prove the impossible.

    Israel 13 QuirkCo 0

    And as the matter of anatomy, Sport, a stick cannot be stuck up an anus. That's because an anus is only about 3/4" in length. (I will concede that you might be thinking about your anatomical configurations, but that's not the point) You had anus confused with colon, Moron. You are precisely why Pell Grants should have been terminated - lots of loot, little learning.





    .

    ReplyDelete
  67. There is nothing unusual about the military or governments of any nation trying to cover-up. There is nothing unique about conspiracy theories. There are those that are convinced 911 was caused by the CIA, the US Government and of course Israel.

    I do not believe we have the complete story on the Liberty.










    This is so inredibly sad, Blue.

    ReplyDelete
  68. I bow to you and your knowledge of all things rectal, Allen.



    .

    ReplyDelete
  69. Trish,

    Re: delusion

    Now, on this and alcohol I concede the field to you, Honey Bun.

    ReplyDelete
  70. This reminded me of one of our regulars Hopeless romantic beaten up by coworkers husband

    It was the sixth time this year that his "sonnets were shoved up his ass."

    ReplyDelete
  71. "...his moonstruck sonnets..."

    ReplyDelete
  72. Quirk,

    I can imagine you bowing to my rectum, Moron. Thanks for the laugh...not quite as good as Rufus's "certifiable" faux pas...but entertaining...

    Israel 13 QuirkCo 0

    As to football and baseball, I wanted to try an approach that was not too difficult. I failed...gee...

    ReplyDelete
  73. What's the most amazing thing about the Bar?

    The absent landlord.

    ReplyDelete
  74. I believe that is "incredibly" Trish.

    With a "c.


    [Sorry, Trish. I know your post was serious. But this may be the only chance I get.]



    .

    ReplyDelete
  75. And it pays big bucks. BIG BUCKS!

    ReplyDelete
  76. Your misreading of my last post suggests dyslexia Allen but it also explains many of your illogical rants.

    Keep up the good work.


    .

    ReplyDelete
  77. Well, look, I wasn't thinking about you.

    But you know that.

    ReplyDelete
  78. I know. I was talking about the Boss's take.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Actually, I thought you were talking about BHO.

    ReplyDelete
  80. A first:
    I agree with Ash on a serious topic.

    Could have predicted it based on Trish's contrary stand, however.

    What can we expect from those who waste their time reading "highly" educated juvenile useful idiots like Matt Yeglassyass?

    ReplyDelete
  81. ...not to mention Jersey Joe Wolcott.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Trish:
    What is it that is better about a President and Congress that are bankrupting us at a pace that puts GWB et al to shame?

    ReplyDelete
  83. Well doug, I really wouldn't expect trish to FEEL any other way given her history with the military. Hard to imagine someone so ingrained in that culture to look at their actions and think it could have been all for naught. I say FEEL because that is the whole of the rationale we get from her other than the president is gone. At first I thought she was referring to GWB but it was term limits that took care of him.

    I still like to know how leaving Saddam in his weakened power position and working against him in other ways would have yielded worse results than we've obtained.

    ReplyDelete
  84. I really laugh everytime Ash slips and says "we" when referring to the good ole U S of A. Canada, the model. Canada, the 51st state.

    ReplyDelete
  85. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mTUMmJBXDw

    Everybody wants some.

    ReplyDelete
  86. We have some fabulous arm chair quarterbacks, here at the EB.

    With perfect 20-20 hindsight.

    Woulda shoulda coulda.

    ReplyDelete
  87. I have long recognized that most of the entertainment in on the public side of the bar.

    I can be anywhere in the western world, at anytime of any day, open my laptop, check in and check out.

    It relaxes me.

    Let me know if you want to be fitted for an apron.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Confusing youtube. That's Creed, not Van Halen. Also a very young John Cusack. Good song.

    ReplyDelete
  89. I was thinking more of a bottle of wine, a bathing suit and a hot tub. An apron never crossed my mind.

    ReplyDelete
  90. My girl friend walked behind me the other day as I was on line, cruising the Bar. "Who is Gag?" she asked. "That's a very good question," I answered.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Trish,

    Do you like my new avatar? Now this weekend when I can't find the lights all I have to do make a comment. Hehehehehehe

    ReplyDelete
  92. "It relaxes me."

    You're shitting me. I do not want to hear that. This is the least relaxing thing in my life.

    Kind of.

    ReplyDelete
  93. No, Quirk, no dyslexia; you're just a funny dude with no sense of law or logic. You are much like my 20 year-old son: "I feel, therefore, it is."

    The difference between you is that he has come to notice this flaw. If he is selected for officer training by the Corps next spring, he will become a disciplined man. You will remain a bigotted punk.

    Enjoy an evening of "fucking" frivolity, loser. You might get lucky and get a vomitus wet one from Red.

    O, and Quirk, tomorrow you will awaken to a day where the score will still be Israel 13, QuirkCo nada.

    Now, I find that as amusing as thinking about your kowtowing to an anatomical feature you cannot define.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Take a few minutes and do something constructive today:






    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Susan R. Wilson
    To: bob
    Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 2:48 PM
    Subject: FW: Wolf hunting poll







    From: jhagedorn@idahoforwildlife.com [mailto:jhagedorn@idahoforwildlife.com]
    Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 6:42 AM
    To: Jim and Barbara Hagedorn
    Subject: Fw: Wolf hunting poll



    MAKE THIS A TOP PRIORITY FOR THE WEEKEND




    Please if you have not written Judge Donald Molloy yet please do so now as he is about to rule in favor of putting the wolf back on the endangered list as I heard on the news tonight. Take the time to write again. It does not have to be a long letter - Just a sentence or two stating you would disagree with any decision to do so.

    Judge Donald W. Molloy
    U.S. District Court
    PO Box 8537
    Missoula, Montana 59807

    It only takes a few minutes to drop a line or two and our future hunts will depend on the outcome.




    The question this poll asks is "Do you agree with the decision by
    Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks to at least double the number of wolves
    that hunters can kill next year?
    "

    The environmentalists are weighing in heavily. At the time I voted, the
    numbers were 40% "yes" and 60% "no".

    We need to switch those numbers by going to this link -
    http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/opinions/poll_eebadb72-6139-11df-a987-001cc4c03286.html
    - and voting.

    Montana, like Idaho, is overrun by wolves. And the problem is getting
    worse with each new crop of pups.


    Susan agrees with me, if they get in the Selkirks, the mountain caribou are gonners. I've got them on my farm, for God's sake.

    ReplyDelete
  95. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  96. I think it's interesting that in California, a new law enacting Civil Unions wasn't good enough. No, nothing short of "Marriage" is acceptable.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Let the gays marry, we'll go to civil unions. :)

    Buddhist joke in one of my dotter's books---"If it wasn't for my wife, I'd have a perfect marriage."

    ReplyDelete
  98. Whit: I think it's interesting that in California, a new law enacting Civil Unions wasn't good enough. No, nothing short of "Marriage" is acceptable.

    The back of the bus wasn't good enough for Rosa Parks. No, nothing short of the front of the bus was acceptable.

    ReplyDelete
  99. You'll be happy to know, Miss T, you can now become an ordained Lutheran minister.

    Though what's left of the church is cracking up over it. With a split in it's probable future.

    As for me, I just like the singing.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Alternate Energy Holdings, Inc.'s Green World Water™ Signs Negotiation Agreement With Tubestar Oil and Gas on Desalination System
    Indian Company Looks to Green World Water to Diversify Its Business While Addressing Power and Water Needs
    BOISE, Idaho, Aug 12, 2010 -- Alternate Energy Holdings, Inc. (OTCQB:AEHI) (www.aehipower.com), a developer and marketer of innovative clean energy sources based in Eagle, ID, today announced the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding ("MOU") between AEHI subsidiary Green World Water(TM) (www.greenworld-h2o.com), the developer of the world's first commercial nuclear desalination system, and Tubestar Oil and Gas, one of the oilfield inspection services in India. The MOU will help determine the feasibility of building a nuclear desalination plant to supply clean water and power in India.


    "This MOU is the first step in the negotiation process. It indicates that Tubestar is serious about working with AEHI and Green World Water. We offer something different from any other company in the world -- a system that we anticipate will produce large amounts of clean water and power at the same time, which is the reason we are hearing from companies like Tubestar," said Don Gillispie, AEHI CEO.


    The agreement outlines a path for ongoing negotiations between the two companies though will not involve government officials until definitive terms are agreed upon. Any definitive agreement will be subject to approval from the Indian government.

    We anticipate that the desalinization reactor being developed by Green World Water will have the ability to create large amounts of clean water and power simultaneously. Based on overall volume, the GWW reactor should be able to process enough salt water from the ocean to provide clean water for up to 1,000,000 people per day, and at an estimated cost of between 35 cents and 65 cents per cubic meter. Other sources such as coal, natural gas and wind cost between $2 and $12 per cubic meter and with much less reliability or greenhouse gas emissions.

    "The MOU will give us the opportunity to fully demonstrate to Tubestar all of the potential benefits expected of the Green World Water desalinization reactor," said Gillispie.

    The Green World Water reactors being developed will be available in 650MWe and 1100MWe systems and are based on advanced western reactors that have thousands of collective years of successful operation in more than 75 percent of the world's nuclear power plants.

    ReplyDelete
  101. The back of the bus wasn't good enough for Rosa Parks. No, nothing short of the front of the bus was acceptable.

    eye roll.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Gag Reflex said...

    I really laugh everytime Ash slips and says "we" when referring to the good ole U S of A. Canada, the model. Canada, the 51st state.

    Well, Gag, officially being a US citizen and all I get to say we. Once a US citizen always a US citizen regardless of where you reside. Unfortunately the IRS also adheres to that notion.

    ReplyDelete
  103. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  104. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  105. C'mon trish - how about the strategic benefits of occupying Iraq? - that's gotta be worth a few thousand US lives, no? A few billion bucks as well? Our prestige? That Saudi base was nasty, inflaming the likes of bin laden and all. Is that the benefit of our sacrificial slaying of Saddam?

    ReplyDelete
  106. Gay Pastor Debate Divides Lutherans

    Here in America there seems to be endless splitings of the churches.

    ReplyDelete
  107. Elias Abuelazam was about to board a plane for Israel when police arrested him in connection with a three-month stabbing spree that left five men dead, 13 others wounded and a Michigan city in terror. In the moments before the pudgy man in flip-flops and shorts was handcuffed, passengers saw him nervously talking on his cell phone, insisting he wasn't violent.

    The Israeli citizen and legal U.S. resident was charged Thursday in just one case out of Flint, Mich., the battered industrial city where most of the stabbings occurred, but authorities said more charges are expected there and in Ohio and Virginia. At least 15 of the 18 victims were black but it was unclear whether the attacks were racially motivated.

    Flint residents hope the arrest ends their summer of fear. Roughly every four days since late May on average, the killer approached men on lonely roads at night, asking for directions or help with a broken-down car. Then he'd pull out a knife, plunge it into his victim and speed away; in one case he used a hammer. The youngest victim was 15; the oldest 67.

    Abuelazam, 33, was arrested late Wednesday at a boarding gate at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport shortly before his plane to Tel Aviv was to take off.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Abuelazam is an Israeli citizen who is living in the U.S. with a green card, Leyton said.

    Damned immigrants coming and killing US citizens!

    No more Semites should be allowed to even visit the US. No Jews or Muslims should be allowed into the US it just is not safe!

    ReplyDelete
  109. That Rat is right!

    ReplyDelete
  110. Idaho Fish and Game Commissioner: Wolves Hurt Elk Numbers, The Awakening

    If you were thinking of coming to Idaho to hunt, give it up, go to Pennslyvania and shoot some Virginia white tails.


    Idaho For Wildlife

    ReplyDelete
  111. I'm just glad he wasn't a redneck, Cherokee from Mississippi.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Anonymous said...
    Abuelazam is an Israeli citizen who is living in the U.S. with a green card, Leyton said.

    Damned immigrants coming and killing US citizens!

    No more Semites should be allowed to even visit the US. No Jews or Muslims should be allowed into the US it just is not safe!


    He's a Catholic...

    Most likely a Palestinian

    ReplyDelete
  113. "US defense officials on Thursday responded angrily to WikiLeaks' plan to post additional Afghan war logs, with Defense Secretary Robert Gates suggesting that the move could further endanger the lives of Afghans who ..."

    What exactly do these these guys do?

    ReplyDelete
  114. 400,000 white tails are taken in a typical PA hunting season, 3000 black bear, 50 elk.

    Trapping for Pennsylvania coyotes, foxes, raccoons, opossums, beaver, muskrats, skunks and weasels amounts to about 350,000 pelts per year.

    ReplyDelete
  115. 50 elk.


    That surprises me, didn't know you had any elk back there.

    The way things are going here, you soon may have more than we.

    It's a sad situation here, I'm telling you. I found today my new lady lawyer is a big hunter, her house has trophies, and she knows the subject. Those posts mostly came through her.

    People are pissed, and are going to start, eh, forgetting what the game rules say. The Idaho Fish and Game guy said that very thing.

    I almost posted some pics of a protest in Missoula, put since it was out of date, didn't.

    The Idaho Legislature has done what it can do, that is demand things be put back in their hands.

    Obama took the wolf off the Endangered Species List, now some Fed judge is looking like he's going to put them back on. What the legalities of any of this really are I don't know, I would have thought the gov't would have the last say, but judges are always infringing.

    These Canadian wolves have driven out the smaller native ones that were here, in greater numbers than Fish and Game ever admitted.

    There seems to be a biological rule, the further north, the bigger the critter.

    ReplyDelete
  116. If you've ever heard a wolf howl, in a small valley, it's something you'll always remember. Has a chilling effect.

    ReplyDelete
  117. The Killing Sport

    I was reading another article about wolves in Russia, they had them under control, but made our mistake, and are having a hell of a time. Some kids have paid with their lives there, so said the article.

    ReplyDelete
  118. WiO and Anon,

    Look at the JP tomorrow; it's already clear he was not one of us.

    This will come as such a major disappointment to our Dukoids and Dukettes...c'est la vie (ha ha ha ha ha ha ha raspberry).

    Who has been taking down his comments this evening?

    O, Israel 13, QuirkCo 0

    O, and Trish's Maj. Hasan has still not been tried, convicted and executed. I guess the carpet baggers are just to overwhelmed with porn viewing to get around to something as trivial as dealing vengence to the murderer of 13 alleged brothers/sisters in arms. Hey, when you claim to have yours, who really needs anyone else.


    c'est si bon! :)

    ReplyDelete
  119. "Gore blamed the skeptics for “attacking science and scientists.” “They [the skeptics] did damage and cast doubt,” Gore said.

    He also quite rightly recognised how hideously biased the MSM is on the global warming issue.

    Asked why the alarmists were ineffective in addressing Climategate, Gore bitterly blamed a “biased right-wing media… bolstered by professional deniers.” Gore claimed the Wall Street Journal published 30 editorial and news articles about Climategate and “not a single one presented [his] side of the science.”



    Damn Right Wing Media


    .

    ReplyDelete
  120. Return of the body snatchers---

    Israel First In Organ Donations

    My driver's license says I'm a donor, have been all my life, though I'm past the optimal age for it.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Listen up, O Noble Bar Flies--


    The Not-self Characteristic (Anatta-lakkhana-sutta)
    Thus I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Benares, in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Seers). There he addressed the bhikkhus of the group of five: "Bhikkhus." — "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this.

    "Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

    "Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self...

    "Bhikkhus, perception is not-self...

    "Bhikkhus, determinations are not-self...

    "Bhikkhus, consciousness is not self. Were consciousness self, then this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.' And since consciousness is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of consciousness: 'Let my consciousness be thus, let my consciousness be not thus.'

    "Bhikkhus, how do you conceive it: is form permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent painful or pleasant?" — "Painful, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

    "Is feeling permanent or impermanent?...

    "Is perception permanent or impermanent?...

    "Are determinations permanent or impermanent?...

    "Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent pleasant or painful?" — "Painful, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

    "So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.'

    "Any kind of feeling whatever...

    "Any kind of perception whatever...

    "Any kind of determination whatever...

    "Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

    "Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.

    "When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

    That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were glad, and they approved his words.

    Now during this utterance, the hearts of the bhikkhus of the group of five were liberated from taints through clinging no more.

    ReplyDelete
  122. O Noble Bar Flies, listen up---


    The Fire Sermon (Aditta-pariyaya-sutta)
    Thus I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Gaya, at Gayasisa, together with a thousand bhikkhus. There he addressed the bhikkhus.

    "Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

    "The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

    "The ear is burning, sounds are burning...

    "The nose is burning, odors are burning...

    "The tongue is burning, flavors are burning...

    "The body is burning, tangibles are burning...

    "The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

    "Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in the eye, finds estrangement in forms, finds estrangement in eye-consciousness, finds estrangement in eye-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful- nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

    "He finds estrangement in the ear... in sounds...

    "He finds estrangement in the nose... in odors...

    "He finds estrangement in the tongue... in flavors...

    "He finds estrangement in the body... in tangibles...

    "He finds estrangement in the mind, finds estrangement in ideas, finds estrangement in mind-consciousness, finds estrangement in mind-contact, and whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, in that too he finds estrangement.

    "When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

    That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were glad, and they approved his words.

    Now during his utterance, the hearts of those thousand bhikkhus were liberated from taints through clinging no more.

    ReplyDelete
  123. O Nobly Born Bar Flies, listen up--

    Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth (Dhamma-cakka-ppavattana-sutta)
    Thus I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Benares in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Seers). There he addressed the bhikkhus of the group of five.

    "Bhikkhus, these two extremes ought not to be cultivated by one gone forth from the house-life. What are the two? There is devotion to indulgence of pleasure in the objects of sensual desire, which is inferior, low, vulgar, ignoble, and leads to no good; and there is devotion to self-torment, which is painful, ignoble and leads to no good.

    "The middle way discovered by a Perfect One avoids both these extremes; it gives vision, it gives knowledge, and it leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana. And what is that middle way? It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the middle way discovered by a Perfect One, which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and which leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana.

    "Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects.

    "The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being.

    "Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.

    "The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

    "'Suffering, as a noble truth, is this.' Such was the vision, the knowledge, the understanding, the finding, the light, that arose in regard to ideas not heard by me before. 'This suffering, as a noble truth, can be diagnosed.' Such was the vision, the knowledge, the understanding, the finding, the light, that arose in regard to ideas not heard by me before. 'This suffering, as a noble truth, has been diagnosed.' Such was the vision, the knowledge, the understanding, the finding, the light, that arose in regard to ideas not heard by me before.

    "'The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this.' Such was the vision... 'This origin of suffering, as a noble truth, can be abandoned.' Such was the vision... 'This origin of suffering, as a noble truth, has been abandoned.' Such was the vision... in regard to ideas not heard by me before.

    "'Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this.' Such was the vision... 'This cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, can be verified.' Such was the vision... 'This cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, has been verified.' Such was the vision... in regard to ideas not heard by me before.

    "'The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this.' Such was the vision... 'This way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, can be developed.' Such was the vision... 'This way leading to the cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, has been developed.' Such was the vision... in regard to ideas not heard by me before.

    ReplyDelete
  124. "As long as my knowing and seeing how things are, was not quite purified in these twelve aspects, in these three phases of each of the four noble truths, I did not claim in the world with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with its monks and brahmans, with its princes and men to have discovered the full awakening that is supreme. But as soon as my knowing and seeing how things are, was quite purified in these twelve aspects, in these three phases of each of the four noble truths, then I claimed in the world with its gods, its Maras and high divinities, in this generation with its monks and brahmans, its princes and men to have discovered the full awakening that is supreme. Knowing and seeing arose in me thus: 'My heart's deliverance is unassailable. This is the last birth. Now there is no renewal of being.'"

    That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus of the group of five were glad, and they approved his words.

    Now during this utterance, there arose in the venerable Kondañña the spotless, immaculate vision of the True Idea: "Whatever is subject to arising is all subject to cessation."

    When the Wheel of Truth had thus been set rolling by the Blessed One the earthgods raised the cry: "At Benares, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the matchless Wheel of truth has been set rolling by the Blessed One, not to be stopped by monk or divine or god or death-angel or high divinity or anyone in the world."

    On hearing the earth-gods' cry, all the gods in turn in the six paradises of the sensual sphere took up the cry till it reached beyond the Retinue of High Divinity in the sphere of pure form. And so indeed in that hour, at that moment, the cry soared up to the World of High Divinity, and this ten-thousandfold world-element shook and rocked and quaked, and a great measureless radiance surpassing the very nature of the gods was displayed in the world.

    Then the Blessed One uttered the exclamation: "Kondañña knows! Kondañña knows!" and that is how that venerable one acquired the name, Añña-Kondañña — Kondañña who knows.



    from dotter's Buddha books, and off to the dormatorio

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  125. This is really funny. The Race Card is Maxed Out

    Jon Stewart, and the Comedy Show "Black Correspondent."

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  126. Thanks, rufus. That was hilarious.

    Jon Stewart's growing a beard? Nice. More men should have beards. To this day I miss the husband's beards. So does the husband.

    Young guy leaving for AfPak started on his beard this past spring. Found it frustratingly slow-going.





    Also hilarious, from Quirk's UK Telegraph link:

    James Delingpole is a writer, journalist and broadcaster who is right about everything. He is the author of numerous fantastically entertaining books including Welcome To Obamaland: I've Seen Your Future And It Doesn't Work, How To Be Right, and the Coward series of WWII adventure novels.



    Yes, Melody, that is indeed a useful avatar. No need to worry ever again about having to leave the porch light on all night.

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  127. Is The United States better off than it was seven years ago?

    Trish: Oh, hell, yes.

    Ash: A mighty definitive statement there trish but I would be interested as to your reasons.

    Trish: The former president is gone.
    That's my reasons.

    Ash: That is a good thing, I grant, but on balance do you think he really was that much of a problem?

    Trish's head explodes.






    Ash, I was referring to our former president. : )

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  128. Bush wasn't that bad. He was good for trade. He got us started, against a lot of opposition from both sides of the aisle, on a road to Renewable Energy, especially biofuels.

    He cut taxes, and yanked us out of an inherited recession, and came within a gnat's hair of getting us to a balanced budget ($167 Billion.)

    He did a good thing for Seniors with Medicare Prescription Drugs, a program that's not costing nearly as much as the detractors said it would.

    He just lost his way in post-war Iraq. Bought into the "Iraq as a future Switzerland" meme.

    Pushed for, and achieved, Missile Defense, fighting the Dems all the way, and kept work going on the airborne laser.

    He got caught up in the "ownership" society, and forgot, along with all the brainiacs, to ask what was going to happen when all of those "no-doc," ARMS reset from 7% to 13%.

    All tolled, a pretty decent job, with the exception of two very large screw-ups.

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  129. Jeez, Germany is Rocking.

    Germany’s economy grew in the second quarter at the fastest pace since the country’s reunification two decades ago as the global recovery boosted exports and companies stepped up investment.

    Gross domestic product, adjusted for seasonal effects, rose 2.2 percent from the first quarter, when it gained an upwardly revised 0.5 percent, the Federal Statistics Office in Wiesbaden said today. That’s the fastest growth since records for a reunified Germany began in 1991. Economists predicted the economy would expand 1.3 percent, the median of 33 estimates in a Bloomberg News survey shows.


    In case you don't know: When the Euros report 2.2% in a quarter it, actually, means 2.2% for the Quarter, or 8.8% "annualized."

    Superman Germany

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  130. Well, there's $60 Billion of those petro-dollars coming home.

    The package includes 84 F-15s at a cost of $30 billion and helicopter sales totaling about $30 billion that include spare parts, training simulators, long-term logistics support and some munitions.

    The Saudis would buy about 72 UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters and as many as 60 AH-64D Longbow Apaches, the official said. The Longbow is the U.S. Army’s premier anti-tank helicopter, capable of firing laser-guided or all-weather air-to-ground missiles. The Longbows are in addition to 12 that Congress in 2008 cleared Boeing to sell to the Saudis.



    Welcome home Benjamins

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  131. A Semite is a Semite is a Semite.

    All the religions or races that talk that Semitic shit. It makes no difference the religion or the country of origin.

    We must protect the US and not allow any more Semitic foreigners into our country. Any and all Semites must be kept from coming here.

    They are all the same.

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  132. allen said...

    Anon,

    Keep up the good fight. You've got the little fox by the tail :)


    Thanks man, I knew I could count on you!

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  133. All the religions or races that talk that Semitic shit. It makes no difference the religion or the country of origin.

    It's less about syntax and more a a question of semitics.

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  134. Anon,

    Hmmm...

    We used to have a cute guy named habu here.

    Some people needin' killin', get killed.

    Just sayin', Quark

    Israel 13, QuirkCo 0

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  135. So, T, what's your religious flavor for the day?

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  136. This fella, allen, is now saying that the US sailors on the US Liberty needed killin'?

    What a low life he is proving himself to be.

    Seems I really have a pussy by the tail, not a fox.

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  137. trish wrote:

    "Ash, I was referring to our former president. : )"

    dagnabit, that is what I thought you meant when I first read that but then I stumbled over the fact that it was patently false 'cause of the reality of term limits. Now, it is true, that many of the bad ideas he symbolized took a hit, and that is a good thing.

    Rufus ole boy, one can lambaste the trouble ushered in by Bush more easily than the problems with the Iraq adventure simply because the Iraq adventure is just ONE of his many legacy's that we are suffering. Now Bush isn't responsible for all our ills but he was a mighty contributor and enabler. While the current nasty US economic position isn't all down to Bush we can certainly pin much of it on him and his simplistic foolosophy.

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  138. bob,

    Thanks for the organ donation link.

    When added to the organs we harvest from kidnapped goy children and stupid Haitians, the cash is sweet.

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  139. bob,

    I am sorry:

    Israel 13, QuirkCo 0

    Thanks

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  140. allen: So, T, what's your religious flavor for the day?

    If it matters to you, none. Daojia is not a religion, but a philosophy, sort of like Ayn Rand's objectivism but with fuzzier edges.

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  141. Daily Life Troops Afghanistan

    But...But...Butt...We were assured by a regular that "Stan" was the man. Maybe we took that the wrong way.

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  142. T,

    Thanks...There's no business like show business

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  143. Allen: Some people needin' killin', get killed.

    Just sayin', Quark

    Israel 13, QuirkCo 0


    Since you treat the death of 34 American bluejackets like a football game, don't expect me to cry the next time Israel finds themselves tangling with the Hezbos like they did in '06.

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  144. T,

    Sorry, again :(

    Israel 13, QuirkCo 0

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  145. Anon,

    Yep

    Now, that's my DR: lie and fly...U da man...

    Israel 13, QuirkCo 0

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  146. O, and DR, you are the scum of the earth for your misrepresentation of the tragedy of the Liberty. But you already know that, and it's just entertainment, after all.

    I take the position that Israel has been cleared by competent authority on 13 occasions over the last 40 years. Just as JFK will not be resurrected by another commission investigation, neither will Israel be found guilty of an intentional act of war against the US.

    Those who claim otherwise, the deluded, ignorant, or bigotted, have not carried their case on a single occasion. They refuse to look into the recently released NSA & CSS files and they blow off the only eyewitnesses to the critical transmissions of the events of that day. In short, they will not be persuaded to abandon their ill-founded beliefs because they prefer the anger and hatred to closure.

    To those who served aboard the USS Liberty on that terrible day, I offer my sincere apology for the misinformed actions of my kinsmen. Additionally, I thank them for serving as Israel's allies against our genuine enemies. To those who would knowingly choose to exploit your loss for the sake of bigotry, may they get what they richly deserve (and you will as you will discover during that last second of thought as you hurtle into the darkness).

    DR,

    Israel 13, QuirkCo 0


    PS: Yesterday, I linked to the most recent NSA & CSS files (2007) for the benefit of Quirk. There are hundred of pages of poorly preserved text in those files. Within minutes, Quirk was back at me, continuing to deny the evidence. Quirk is one quick reader or he is just what he appears, a self-gratified bigot. It would take a super-computer to survey those documents. That would not be Quirk, who doesn't know an anus from a hole in the ground.

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  147. T: Since you treat the death of 34 American bluejackets like a football game, don't expect me to cry the next time Israel finds themselves tangling with the Hezbos like they did in '06.


    The death of those 34 Americans was the direct FAULT OF THE ROUGE NSA STAFFER THAT ORDERED THE BOAT, INTO THE WAR AREA.

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  148. The death of those 34 Americans was the direct FAULT OF THE ROUGE NSA STAFFER THAT ORDERED THE BOAT, INTO THE WAR AREA.


    “At the time of the attack, the USS Liberty was flying the American flag and its identification was clearly indicated in large white letters and numerals on its hull. … Experience demonstrates that both the flag and the identification number of the vessel were readily visible from the air…. Accordingly, there is every reason to believe that that the USS Liberty was identified, or at least her nationality determined, by Israeli aircraft approximately one hour before the attack. … The subsequent attack by the torpedo boats, substantially after the vessel was or should have been identified by Israeli military forces, manifests the same reckless disregard for human life.” -- Secretary of State Dean Rusk to the Israeli Ambassador, two days after the attack.

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