COLLECTIVE MADNESS


“Soft despotism is a term coined by Alexis de Tocqueville describing the state into which a country overrun by "a network of small complicated rules" might degrade. Soft despotism is different from despotism (also called 'hard despotism') in the sense that it is not obvious to the people."

Sunday, March 25, 2007

Captured, Interrogated and now to be tried for espionage.





From The Sunday Times
March 25, 2007
Iran ‘to try Britons for espionage’

Uzi Mahnaimi, Michael Smith and David Cracknell
FIFTEEN British sailors and marines arrested by Iran’s Revolutionary Guards off the coast of Iraq may be charged with spying.

A website run by associates of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, reported last night that the Britons would be put before a court and indicted.

Referring to them as “insurgents”, the site concluded: “If it is proven that they deliberately entered Iranian territory, they will be charged with espionage. If that is proven, they can expect a very serious penalty since according to Iranian law, espionage is one of the most serious offences.”

The warning followed claims by Iranian officials that the British navy personnel had been taken to Tehran, the capital, to explain their “aggressive action” in entering Iranian waters. British officials insist the servicemen were in Iraqi waters when they were held.

The penalty for espionage in Iran is death. However, similar accusations of spying were made when eight British servicemen were detained in the same area in 2004. They were paraded blindfolded on television but did not appear in court and were freed after three nights in detention.

Iranian student groups called yesterday for the 15 detainees to be held until US forces released five Revolutionary Guards captured in Iraq earlier this year.



Al-Sharq al-Awsat, a Saudi-owned newspaper based in London, quoted an Iranian military source as saying that the aim was to trade the Royal Marines and sailors for these Guards.

The claim was backed by other sources in Tehran. “As soon as the corps’s five members are released, the Britons can go home,” said one source close to the Guards.

He said the tactic had been approved by Ayatollah Khamenei, Iran’s supreme leader, who warned last week that Tehran would take “illegal actions” if necessary to maintain its right to develop a nuclear programme.

Iran denounced a tightening of sanctions which the United Nations security council was expected to agree last night in protest at Tehran’s insistence on enriching uranium that could be used for nuclear weapons.

Lord Triesman, the Foreign Office minister, met the Iranian ambassador in London yesterday to demand that consular staff be allowed access to the Britons, one of whom is a woman. His intervention came as a senior Iranian general alleged that the Britons had confessed under interrogation to “aggression into Iran’s waters”.

Intelligence sources said any advance order for the arrests was likely to have come from Major-General Yahya Rahim Safavi, the commander of the Revolutionary Guards.

Subhi Sadek, the Guards’ weekly newspaper, warned last weekend that the force had “the ability to capture a bunch of blue-eyed blond-haired officers and feed them to our fighting cocks”.

Safavi is known to be furious about the recent defections to the West of three senior Guards officers, including a general, and the effect of UN sanctions on his own finances.

A senior Iraqi officer appeared to back Tehran’s claim that the British had entered Iranian waters. “We were informed by Iraqi fishermen after they had returned from sea that there were British gunboats in an area that is out of Iraqi control,” said Brigadier-General Hakim Jassim, who is in charge of Iraq’s territorial waters. “We don’t know why they were there.”

Admiral Sir Alan West, the former head of the Royal Navy, dismissed suggestions that the British boats might have been in Iranian waters. West, who was first sea lord when the previous arrests took place in June 2004, said satellite tracking systems had shown then that the Iranians were lying and the same was certain to be true now.


100 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  2. Admiral Sir Alan West, the former head of the Royal Navy, dismissed suggestions that the British boats might have been in Iranian waters. West, who was first sea lord when the previous arrests took place in June 2004, said satellite tracking systems had shown then that the Iranians were lying and the same was certain to be true now.


    Of course they're lying. The question is what will Britain do about it.

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  3. time for iran to get unlucky...

    Now is the time for all good men and women of the NSA, CIA, MOSSAD, FBI to start quietly arresting all Iranian diplomats.

    And of course not disclosing that they in fact have been arrested.

    The iranians have "embassy interests" in many a embassy around the world...

    Iran is not the only "country" that has abilities.

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  4. A senior Iraqi officer appeared to back Tehran’s claim that the British had entered Iranian waters. “We were informed by Iraqi fishermen after they had returned from sea that there were British gunboats in an area that is out of Iraqi control,” said Brigadier-General Hakim Jassim, who is in charge of Iraq’s territorial waters. “We don’t know why they were there.”

    The Iraqis standing by their Allies, in Iran. Or speaking the truth as percieved by the local fishermen, who know the waters.

    While the British warship Commander, well he realizes that perceptions rule reality:

    The Cornwall's commander, Commodore Nick Lambert, said: "There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they were in Iraqi territorial waters.

    "Equally, the Iranians may well claim that they were in Iranian waters. The extent and definition of territorial waters in this part of the world is very complicated.


    Complicated, an uniformed officer of the Royal Navy, not quite sure where his assualt boats were, vis a vie the line, which is not well defined.

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  5. The Russian publication Kommersant has published a newly located photograph of a U.S. hostage-taker in Iran circa 1979 bearing a striking resemblance to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

    The Iranian leader has steadfastly denied he was involved in the takeover of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and the holding of 52 Americans for 444 days despite assertions to the contrary of some of those hostages and former Iranian President Abholhassan Bani-Sadr, who says he was a ringleader and the liaison with Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

    Charges by the ex-hostages were made shortly after Ahmadinejad came to power June 24, 2005. But from the beginning, the White House and State Department made it clear they would rather not know the truth about Ahmadinejad because it would place the U.S. in a position of refusing to permit a head of government into the country to attend U.N. meetings.

    One official said such a finding would "enormously complicate" matters.

    U.S. "investigators" never bothered to interview any of the former hostages who made the charges against the Iranian leader.

    Perhaps the most damning evidence against Ahmadinejad with regard to the hostage-taking came from Bani-Sadr, Iran's president during the early days of the Khomeini revolution.

    He has adamantly affirmed Ahmadinejad was one of the kidnappers who held 52 Americans for 444 days. He said the former student leader was in the embassy throughout the hostage crisis.

    "Ayatollah Khomeini's deputy, Ayatollah Khamenei, demanded of him a constant report on what is happening in the embassy," he said.

    When told Ahmadinejad denied the accusation, Bani-Sadr laughed.

    "What do you want?" he said. "That he should not deny it? I was president, and I know the details, and I am telling you for sure that he was there, though his role was not organizational. He was the chief reporter to Khamenei."
    ...
    At least six former American hostages agree the president of Iran played a key role in interrogating and abusing them.

    Chuck Scott characterized his tormentor as "cold, hard-nosed" and said his memory is solid, "as sure as I'm sitting here."

    "If you went through a traumatic experience like that and you were around people who made it possible, you're never going to forget them," said Scott, a 73-year-old retired U.S. Army colonel.


    But the US Government denies that Abracadbra is a known terrorist, one who took and held US citizens hostage for years.

    It would complicate things, to admit it.
    Oh what tangled webs we weave, when we practice to decieve.

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  6. Who, though, is the US Government trying to decieve?
    Iranians? Iraqis?

    Or the people of the United States.

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  7. "It would complicate things, to admit" who was responsible for The 1983 Beirut barracks bombing also i guess or is it the same people? Shame on us now.

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  8. Methuselah: Of course they're lying. The question is what will Britain do about it.

    Multiple guess:

    a) Hold a burial ceremony for all fifteen sailors as though they were already dead. Declare war on Iran for killing their sailors. Dispatch a carrier battlegroup to the Persian Gulf or vicinity, including submarines with Trident II missiles.

    b) Take the issue to various world bodies dominated by countries (including the UK itself) which are aligned with the Palestinian cause and favor easy immigration from north Africa into Europe.

    c) As an "ally" of the US, pressure Bush to release his five Iranian spies as a goodwill gesture to President Ineedanewjob.

    d) B & C above.

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  9. We deceive ourselves and make nice with these jihadists for the sake of the Eurabians' benefit. These Eurabians, after receiving baksheesh money from the Jihadists, then spit in our face and call the US an imperialist aggressor. Time to break this idiotic and absurd behavioral pattern.

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  10. I know it must occur to the bloggers on this site since it occurs to me and I'm almost as normal as most of you are.

    But we are not dealing with RATIONAL people, nor a culture that even remotely incorporates any western thought.
    Yet we attempt to employ a "negotiator", like the trained cop trying to talk the looney from jumping off the high rise roof.

    We cannot negotitate with Islam and have it mean ANYTHING. Read their own sharia and Quran. It authorizes any deception in order to beat the infidels, at anything, but especially in attempting to spread Islam. Any method is "fair"

    Islams are in our language and understanding sociopaths. Do sociopaths operate within our understanding of acceptable behavior. No. But Islams believe they can stone women to death for being victims of rape...victims, not wilful partners but victims.
    Women are chattel and Islams still trade in slavery. T us they are perfect examples of sociopaths.

    Islam and Christianity can NEVER be reconciled. The cultural differences and religious differences are too great.

    That leaves the world with a choice. One must be dominant and one must be submissive. Current demographic trends point to Islam becoming dominant within our newborns lifetimes. Do we allow this to happen? Do we allow them NBC weapons to accelerate the pace of takeover?
    Or while in a position of dominance do we act to decimate their numbers and slow the trend line, and then go about reversing it?

    One answer leads to submission, the other to Churchill's broad sunlit uplands. We have a choice NOW, but the window is closing.

    For those who wish to argue that this is a false choice please begin by reconciling the religious and cultural differences that have existed for a thousand years. Otherwise you have no argument, for one thing we do know. Certain things are irreconcilable.

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  11. If the US was really on a track to War with Iran, if it was part of the "Hidden Program", the "Master Plan", those deceptions make no sense at all.

    But if the US is on a path of reconciliation and accomadation with Iran, the pieces all fall into place.

    Tony says they are moving "softly, softly"

    "I want to get it resolved in as easy and diplomatic a way as possible," he said, but added he hoped the Iranians "understood how fundamental an issue this is for the British government."

    While the Brits diplomats are not as adament that the Brits were not in Iran's waters. It is complicated, you know.

    Lord Triesman, a Foreign Office undersecretary who had held talks with Iran's ambassador on Saturday, told Sky News the issue of whether the sailors had strayed into Iranian waters was a technical one.

    "I've been very clear throughout that the British forces do not ever intentionally enter into Iranian waters," he said. "There's no reason for them to do so, we don't intend to do so and I think people should accept there's good faith in those assertions."

    "We believe there's good strong evidence that they were in Iraqi water at the time," Triesman said. "That's a technical issue and I think it could be resolved as a technical issue."


    Does not sound like the Drums of War, to me. Not likely the dogs will be soon unleashed.

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  12. Hubu1,

    True Islamers already consider themselves dead. They made their pact with Allah. There's nothing to appeal to other then to kill the ideologues, keep killing them and whatever they hold of value, until they can no longer hold any kind of credibility.

    There are several areas where this credibility can be demolished:

    ) loss of ideologues
    ) loss of prestige of holy places
    ) loss of any kind of ideological stability
    ) loss of any kind of economic stability
    ) loss of any kind of political stability
    ) loss of territory
    ) loss of demographic strength

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  13. The number may be more than 5.

    ...American forces in Iraq now hold some 300 prisoners tied to Iran’s intelligence agencies, Pajamas Media learned from both diplomatic and military sources.

    This week’s seizure of 15 British sailors by Iran in the contested waters of the Shattab al-Arab, the ship channel that divides Iraq and Iran, may have been payback for the capture of record number of Iranian operatives inside Iraq.

    ...The Pentagon received
    “considerable pressure” from officials in the State department and CIA to release some or all of the Iran-linked prisoners to facilitate discussions between Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Iranian officials. Apparently, Gen. Petraeus sharply disagreed, saying that he intends to hold the prisoners “until they run out of information or we run out of food,” according to our sources who heard these remarks through channels.

    Perhaps the Iranians will suffer some mishaps of their own if they make another similar mistake to the one below

    ...Earlier this March the Saudi Arabian navy engaged an Iranian submarine. No shots were fired, but the Saudis found the sub near the Saudi city of Jubail, a coastal industrial center that is the site of major Saudi petrochemical and oil installations, as well as the location of the King Abdul Aziz naval base. The Saudis minimized the incident, accepting the Iranian explanation that the sub's closeness to Jubail was a mistake. The Saudis also did not want to further stress relations between Riyadh and Tehran.

    Seems everyone is very cautious not to upset the Persians

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  14. U.S. News and World Report, citing a U.S. Army report out of Iraq, said the capture of the British soldiers was not the first time Iranians have taken Western forces by surprise in the border area.

    According to the news magazine, American troops working with Iraqi border guards within Iraq were attacked by a much larger Iranian military unit in September. U.S. News said no Americans were hurt in the incident, but four Iraqi soldiers, an interpreter, and an Iraqi border policeman remain missing.

    U.S. military officials told the news magazine the Iranians may have mistakenly thought they were in Iranian territory.


    All depends on the Iranians motivation, what they believed, how they felt.

    What would be worse, that the Iranian Government knows and approves of what is going on, or that they are in the dark about their Armed Forces actions.

    That was the question Mr Bush asked, not long ago, as if it made a real difference.

    Post-modern War.

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  15. As I said, time to break from this idiotic and absurd behavioral pattern.

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  16. saying that he intends to hold the prisoners “until they run out of information or we run out of food,”

    Heh, I'm starting to like this guy. He MIGHT be that one in two thousand I've blogged about, before.

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  17. karridine speaks of the Bahai's faith that the Mahdi did arrive, a hundred years ago or so, and that the Mohammedans killed him.

    The Bahai are one of the faiths most persecuted in Iran, the Mullahs being afraid of the message.

    Whether the US should promote the Bahai beliefs, or not, we will not.

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  18. d'Rat,

    I thought he was imprisoned and killed in Acco.

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  19. I'm no expert on the subject.
    There were, reportedly, two attempts to kill him by firing squad. First by a Christian contingent, the bullets cutting the bonds that held him. A second squad, Mohammedans all, completed the execution.

    Beyond that I know they have a Temple Garden somewhere in Israel and have a nice piece of hill top ground and edifice in Panama.

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  20. k. I think that at that time it might still have been in Ottoman hands.

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  21. They have two gardens. One in Haifa, one in Acco. The one in Acco, I think, is the one with his tomb.

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  22. The Bahai on the Bahai

    For anyone that wants to know.

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  23. I know it must occur to the bloggers on this site since it occurs to me and I'm almost as normal as most of you are. ...

    Only if you are carrying brass knuckles.

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  24. However, similar accusations of spying were made when eight British servicemen were detained in the same area in 2004. They were paraded blindfolded on television but did not appear in court and were freed after three nights in detention.


    One must wonder what brought about the rapid release of the 8 British servicemen in 2004. Did the Brits cough up a payment of tribute to the Persians, or did they make a threat that the Iranians didn't want to countenance? I find it hard to believe the latter. Shortly we will see if its 1979 all over again, but with the Brits being humiliated instead of the Americans. It will be a sad day indeed, if the Iranians are allowed to successfully manipulate the West in this way again, almost 30 years after they declared Death to America.

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  25. "The US Government trying to decieve - the people of the United States?"

    Ironically, it may be views like your own that explain why Westerners are lied to by their governments.

    ...you are awful quick to mock Habu
    comparing him to vigilantes, stating that the FBI should hunt down and prosecute jihadists in our midst.

    ...it's the typical Western mindset,coddled into believing that all of their protection, all their needs can be met by the state. This has made the west particularly vulnerable to actors who operate within the targets population and attack the weak underbelly of society.

    The police, the FBI, the Army will never be able to respond to terrorist planning and events in time to do something other than sift through the wreckage. It’s a battle that will have to be won by civilian citizens (the wisdom of the 2nd amendment). Until that mindset becomes prevalent, we’re all going to have to take our lumps as they come.

    Or...be lied to in order to provide a false sense of security.

    "Post-modern War."
    - Iran

    ...We may even go so far as to hit regime targets, destroy their armed forces, destroy their nuclear sites. But things are not likely to stop there. Iran is likely to retaliate in Iraq, the greater middle east, and western countries.

    4GW is the means by which Iran can seriously hurt the USA. The old "Soviet Style" paradigm of top down control has been replaced with a much more modern
    decentralized format. Iran has numerous covert forces and non-state actors throughout the Middle East and more than likely here as well. They already know their instructions and do not need guidance from Tehran on how to carry out operations once unleashed. In fact, in the aftermath of successfully removing the Mullahs, these 4GW warriors can't really be successfully recalled.

    ...and this does not even consider the possibility of a scorched earth policy with the Mullahs utilizing WMDs - bringing forth the 12th Imam

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  26. elijah,

    re: Mark Steyn

    “We speak of the northwestern tribal lands as some of the most remote places on Earth. But, in fact, when they wanted to, the Saudis had no problem getting to them, spreading a ton of walking-around money, and utterly transforming those villages. From the North-West Frontier Province, the Saudi money and Wahhabist ideology seeped through the country, into the mosques of the cities, radicalizing a generation of young Muslim men.

    Pakistan was never the most placid and stable polity but it's now riddled from top to toe, its worst pathologies amplified by Arab cash and ideology and the nuclear equivalent of a desktop-publishing boom: mysterious Sino-Pakistani technological transfers have recently been noticed through Kashmir.

    In Britain, the authorities can tell you (roughly) the number of jihadist cells and the support they command in the Muslim community. But doing anything about it is far more problematic. Wouldn't be cricket, old boy.”

    Mark Steyn: Sticky wicket of creeping sharia

    ***

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  27. Elijah: ...and this does not even consider the possibility of a scorched earth policy with the Mullahs utilizing WMDs - bringing forth the 12th Imam

    Well, the US and Israel can scorch right back, and sustain the scorching a lot longer than a theocracy with a handful of wobbly Little Boy clones.

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  28. By the way Habu, that was a welcome.

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  29. Interesting development, together with the UNSCR resolution. Further back in history Iran has had far worse relations with Britain than the US (Britain occupied Iran during both world wars, but trouble with the US dates only back to 1979)....I wonder if the primary intended audience is not the Brits but the Iranian public.

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  30. Undoubtably, Peacekeeper; they're just trying to hang on. Imawhackjob and the madmullahs have had a bad month.

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  31. elijah,

    Who picks those 2nd Admend targets of opportunity?

    habu has advocated for prepping to hunt protesters, little Greenies in Seattle, Muslims in Dearborn, and others that have suited his fancy, from day to day.

    Now if I were to see a "bad guy" carrying weapons, shooting civilians at random, I have no problem poppin' him or her. As occurred in that Mall in Utah. Another instance where the Police did the job, the incident then falling into the memory hole.

    See someone wearing an explosive belt, again no problem.

    But should we shoot the Forest Service Rangers that want to illegally remove a herd of wild horses, nah. That's a System thing.

    Takin' aim at Ms Pelosi or Mr Murtha, whom rufus and others have described as a treasonous traitors to America, that sounds more like Imperial Rome. Not a course I think we should take.

    In MN, where the taxi drivers at the airport will no longer transport those carrying wine or beer. Thre are other remedies than shooting them, for their Religious convictions. But the idea that we should accommadate them:
    In September 2006, the Metropolitan Airports Commission (MAC) proposed a two color top-light pilot project to indicate which drivers would accept passengers with alcohol. The proposal, later dropped, would apparently have marked the first time that a government agency in the U.S. officially recognized Shariah law, and distinguished individuals who follow it from those who don't.
    Is a local decision that shows just how fubared we are becoming as a Society.

    So who should be shot there? The taxi driver or the members of the Metropolitan Airports Commission that proposed the idea? Or should the democratic process be utilized to modify the Metropolitan Airports Commission, their ideas and proposals?
    The airport taxi permits of the offending drivers could be easily revoked, for failing to serve the public.

    What habu has advocated, in the past, would devolve parts of the US into a mirror image of Baghdad or Beirut. I oppose that idea, vehemently.

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  32. Less than five years each for five life sentences:

    Baader-Meinhof woman released after 25 years in jail

    “The Stuttgart court decided last month that Mohnhaupt no longer posed a threat. In its decision, the court noted that she was not willing to repudiate completely her violent past…”

    She also “acknowledged inflicting suffering on the victims’ families.”

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  33. Another example of "Catch & Release" in the postmodern world.

    She did, almost, apologize.

    the court noted that she was not willing to repudiate completely her violent past. But it added that Mohnhaupt, at a closed parole hearing, said the time for “armed struggle" was over and acknowledged inflicting suffering on the victims’ families.

    If the Insurgent Iraqi that the US has captured there, were held for even five years, let alone the duration of the War, the Insurgency could have been broken. We'd have about 150,000 or more in detention camps, instead of 25,000.

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  34. The Government and the Media doing an outstanding job of burying both the Mexican and OTM asymetric invasion and the Mohammedan terror attacks within the US.

    That most of those Mohammedan attacks have been with autos and small arms, with only one suicide bomber attack, other than 9-11, that I'm aware of. Even that attack, outside a football game, with few if any casualties, has fallen down the hole, as well.

    But the police seem to be on top of it, just don't talk about it publicly. I know that the Phoenix PD have some Mohammedan threats under pretty constant observation, or so a Police Lt. has told me. Just waiting on the "word" he said.

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  35. Elijah,
    I saw that Petraeus Quote about keeping them as long as the food holds out but forget where it was.

    Maybe we could get you to past the url in from the address bar at the top of your browser?

    Don't have to make a link, or anything, but then others can copy and paste it to find the article.
    Thanks.

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  36. The 9-11 terrorists, elijah, were uncovered by the FBI, here in Phoenix, before they boarded the planes in Boston.

    Those terrorists were not unknown, just unmolested. We were not at War. Even today, from the looks of it, we are still not at War.

    We are definately not at War with the Religion of Peace. Nor will we be any time soon. Not if either the GOP or the Democrats remain in power in DC.
    The Skull & Boners inhabit both Parties at the highest levels of authority. One Worlders, working for one America, from the Artic to the Isthmus. They won't let anything interfere with that vision of the future.

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  37. Sounds like something big is about to happen, Trish!
    ;-)

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  38. "The Skull & Boners inhabit both Parties at the highest levels of authority. One Worlders, working for one America, from the Artic to the Isthmus. They won't let anything interfere with that vision of the future."
    ---
    That's the ONE thing I have complete Faith in GWB remained STEADFAST to.
    ...to the death, the one-time citizens of this country be DAMNED.

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  39. Friggin Chertoff et al, might as well be lawyers for the world court.

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  40. Fair enough.

    It is interesting that we are never informed of the venom emanating from a large number of the individuals you speak of
    ...protesters, little Greenies in Seattle, Muslims in Dearborn

    the protesters...

    A collective of protesters in Portland gathered around a strung up effigy of a GI at a "peace" protest... torched it... and chanted...

    "Bye, Bye GI... In Iraq You're Gonna Die!"
    "Build a bonfire
    Build a bonfire
    Put the soldiers on the top.
    Put the fascists in the middle,
    And, we'll burn the f**king lot."

    Another example, go to HuffPo and read either of the threads -

    ...Iran Says It Will No Longer Keep UN Informed Of Nuclear Progress

    or

    ...Blair: Iranian Capture Of 15 Sailors "Unjustified And Wrong"

    One should choose their words carefully

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  41. Cedarford said...
    Sammy Small - If you can't imagine a situation where a US Naval Ship or Marines could be attacked without firing a shot or calling in and getting help, here are three refreshers:

    USS Liberty
    USS Pueblo
    USMC Barracks, Beruit

    3/25/2007 02:19:00 PM

    2164th said...
    Some more for you C-4

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  42. If only the Brits had defended Iraq's territorial integrity, against Iranian aggression, this incident would not have happened.

    If as Mr Blair relates, the Brits were in Iraqi waters.

    We seem to be playing the Game, just as described by Mr Walid Phares. So far the fiddle is playing the tune the Iranians expect.

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  43. doug -

    I got that from Pajamas Media but am having a hard time finding it

    their page has changed, will continue to look

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  44. Elmondohummus said...
    "I wonder how long any deal made with Iran and Syria to cover a US disengagement would last?"---

    To answer that last:

    That presumes Iran and Syria would make any attempts to hold up their side of the bargin to begin with. It's too easy to just set conditions that the US act first and hammer away at them publicly until they do, then ignore the deal.

    As shown in your examples above, deals with the Jihadists and their providers aren't honored to begin with, even with their ostensible allies.

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  45. Don't bother, Elijah,
    but if you could paste in the address in the future, it would be helpful.
    Thanks again!

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  46. http://pajamasmedia.com
    /2007/03/us_holds_300
    _prisoners_linked.php

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  47. gdude said...
    habu1,

    karradine isn't a Christian, he's B'hai, I believe. Which brings us to the biggest problem the West faces: who/what are we? Are we Greco/Judeo/Christian (Aristotle, the Ten Commandments, Jesus?) Or, are we Cartesian Moderns (the indeterminancy -- think Free Speech -- of the Applied Science/Democracy paradigm?) It's a 3-legged war we're in, with shifting 2-against-1 combinations. Until we get clear on this point, its highly unlikely we will be able to have enough agreement on the matter to really defend our society. I think the analogy is to the later centuries of the Roman civilization.
    ---
    Left over Patriots "led" by Skull and Boners.

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  48. Words that, the speaking of which, every soldier, sailor, airman and Marine are sworn defend.
    Same as desecrating the Flag.

    If those protesters take up arms, that's one thing, but they are permitted to be verbally and symbolicly offensive, per the Supremes. If the Congress wanted to end that interpretation of the Constitution they could, it has been attempted, the modification that 1st Admendment interpretation.
    It fails every time. The System is working, not perhaps to our satisfaction, but we're a minority in the electorial scheme of things.

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  49. earlier thread at bc:

    BBC online doesn't have the story on the frontpage!

    Blair is finding his inner dhimmi.
    ----
    "Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides."

    - Margaret Thatcher
    ----------------
    "If you set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything at any time, and you would achieve nothing."

    - Margaret Thatcher
    ------------------------------"To me, consensus seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects. "

    - Margaret Thatcher
    ------------------------------"You may have to fight a battle more than once to win it. "

    - Margaret Thatcher
    ------------------------------
    "I seem to smell the stench of appeasement in the air."

    - Margaret Thatcher
    -----------------
    "This is no time to go wobbly. "
    - Margaret Thatcher

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  50. "The System is working, not perhaps to our satisfaction, but we're a minority in the electorial scheme of things. "
    ---
    To career DC Bureaucrats, Boners, and the Judiciary, the Entire Citizenry don't mean nothin

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  51. Doug,

    Re: Who are we? Greco/Judeo/Christian/Cartesian Moderns.

    These all fall into forward looking Western thought patterns and behavior. Now, contrast that with static and therefore backward looking Eastern thought patterns and behavior of Islamers, Confucians, Buddhists, Hindus.

    And it's really that simple. A struggle by exponents for modernism vs exponents for primitivism.

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  52. Seems that, according to steve at threatswatch.org, that trish was right about Somalia.

    The Ethiopians are pullin' out and the US has not stepped up. Instead the Mohammedans are stepping back into Mogadishu.

    After the ICU’s retreat, there were many reasons to suspect that they would make a return to Mogadishu. A confidential UN report stated that “the ICU is fully capable of turning Somalia into what is currently an Iraq-type scenario, replete with roadside and suicide bombers, assassinations and other forms of terrorist and insurgent-type activities.” Moreover, Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed, the allegedly moderate leader of the ICU, threatened to initiate an insurgency in Somalia. Thus, the ICU’s ability and willingness was clearly established.

    Amidst the glaring signs of an impending insurgency, the Ethiopian military began pulling its troops out of Somalia just one month after over-running the ICU. And with that, the Ethiopian military’s failure to establish a secure Mogadishu has partly led to a re-infestation of ICU militiamen. Through them, the ICU will most likely continue what they previously started: An attempt to establish Somalia as a Sharia-run state and a potential safe haven for al-Qaeda and al-Qaeda-aligned terrorists.

    At the same time, the United States’ failure to support the UN-recognized Transitional Federal Government also hurt Somalia’s chance to rebuild itself. A number of articles were released suggesting that the United States and the UN had a great opportunity to offer support to the TFG. (See here, here, and here.)

    However, no financial or logistical support was provided to the TFG. The United States’ failure to establish an ambassador to Somalia indicated a lack of willingness to help the TFG and deter the ICU. As a result, the TFG has been unable to curtail the general insecurity that has returned to the country; a situation that led many Somalis to originally welcome the ICU’s prior occupation. Although a report from the State Department indicated that it would provide immediate support for the deployment of Ugandan troops into Somalia, this has proven to be inadequate support considering the resurgence of the once-retreating ICU back into Somalia.


    As I said at the time, Somalia was an Ethiopian success story, we have not written the next chapter in the story, instead allowing the ICU to do so.

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  53. Bobalharb: 'Baaaa. I have my rights, I do, I'm 15% human, just like you!'

    "Daaaaa-a-a-a-a-d!!!"

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  54. Is that like being 3/5ths of a man.
    Counting toward electoral representation, but not allowed to bah-ticipate?

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  55. Wonder if those Brits were waterboarded, during those interrogations?

    Wonder if that'd be extra upsetting to Mr Blair or Mr Bush, if they were?

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  56. The Bush Administration has popped America's cherry on the torture issue. We no longer have a leg to stand on when other countries do it to our guys. Thanks Cheney, you Dick!

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  57. Just answered that one at Belmont, Rat!
    ---
    Mañana, 'Rat:
    We have yet to get around to that, so can't tell.

    Long Debate for the Long War
    C.I.A. Awaits Rules on Interrogation of Terror Suspects

    WASHINGTON, March 24 — A sharp debate within the Bush administration over the future of the Central Intelligence Agency’s detention and interrogation program has left the agency without the authority to use harsh interrogation techniques that the White House said last fall were necessary in questioning terrorism suspects, according to administration and Congressional officials.

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  58. It's thanks, Dick, you Cheney, T.

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  59. Trish was Wrong:
    She said within 2 years.
    If it was only going to be weeks, why was she talkin years???
    (It's that she's really conservative, although she fancies herself a libertarian)

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  60. At least we're consistent, 'Rat:
    Retreat around the World.
    Can we say we're French Yet?
    ---
    That Austin/Roggio audio that Rufus mentioned was positive about Iraq was followed by his thoughts about Pakistan/Afghanistan:

    He is fully as negative as Yon on that one:
    We're losing!
    Sad,
    Scary,
    Sick.
    ---
    The whole Warizistan area only has a Million People.
    We should have pounded the Taliban before they took over the whole damned place and spread out.

    Had Bush been watching ABC News, he could have been far enough ahead of the curve to easily make that a done deal.

    ...maybe his trusted (texas crony) advisers forgot to bring it up, or at least leave the TV Guide there for him.

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  61. "As a result, the TFG has been unable to curtail the general insecurity that has returned to the country; a situation that led many Somalis to originally welcome the ICU’s prior occupation."
    ---
    Exactly what happened in Iraq, starting with the Bremmer year.
    Consistency is a good thing.
    That's why we didn't put someone like Petraeus in until year 5.

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  62. How did these British sailors become Bush's problem? And why are coconuts such Bush haters? Please explain. Doug.

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  63. In a related effort, the Bush administration has warned "relevant companies and countries" about the risks of investing in Iran's oil and gas sector, R. Nicholas Burns, undersecretary of state for political affairs, said in congressional testimony last Wednesday. Washington is generally trying to drive home to Tehran that its policies will lead to serious "financial hardship," he said.

    In December, Iranian oil minister Kazem Vaziri Hamaneh acknowledged that Tehran was having trouble financing petroleum development projects. "Currently, overseas banks and financiers have decreased their cooperation," he told the oil ministry news agency Shana.

    The Bush administration has taken several other actions in recent months to contain Iran, including deploying two navy carrier strike groups near the Persian Gulf, arresting operatives of the Revolutionary Guards' al-Quds Force in Iraq, and pressing for two U.N. resolutions to punish Iran for failing to suspend a uranium enrichment program.


    Curtailing Business

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  64. Doug was talking about Somalia and Pakistan.
    Were some of the Sailors Pakistani?

    If "Bush Hater" means
    "Doug hates having a weak ass incompetent CIC."
    Guilty as charged.

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  65. Why the Hell should we be losing Afghanistan again?
    Same reason Iraq is an even bigger mess than it needed to be:
    Multiple Enemy Sanctuaries held harmless.

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  66. Here's how Steve
    (USMC Ret as you will recall, Mat) Puts it:

    "From the outset, the Iranian nuclear crisis has been little more than, as any good Marine would say, a Dog & Pony Show. It has been reduced to a traveling circus on the New York–Vienna–Natanz circuit. Meanwhile, the intelligence (or, in the newly imposed intelligence standard, ‘evidence’) on Iran’s terrorism and sponsored acts of terrorism collects dust.

    If you can’t be bothered with state-sponsored terrorism and want to consume yourself with an immediate nuclear crisis, took a good hard look at Pakistan. Please..
    "
    Threat Perception and Risk Inversion

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  67. Doug: Multiple Enemy Sanctuaries held harmless.

    You can't keep pushing them back, unless you want to pacify the whole world. At some point you have to, actually, erm (this is going to sound so anti-Bush)...patrol the border.

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  68. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  69. U.S. crude futures extended gains towards $63 on Monday on the back of heightened tensions between Iran and the West.

    Iran said on Sunday it would limit cooperation with the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog and vowed not to halt its atomic programme "even for one second" following new financial and arms sanctions.

    The U.N. Security Council unanimously approved the sanctions on Saturday for Tehran's refusal to suspend its programme, but major powers also offered new talks and renewed an economic and technological incentive package offer.


    Tensions Lift Gold

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  70. Mat said,
    "Re: Who are we? Greco/Judeo/Christian/Cartesian Moderns."
    ---
    My term was left over patriots.
    Problem is, CIC and many others in DC are no longer on that side, unless you consider a surrender of our borders to a multinational, multicultural mess at home, and widespread appeasement abroad typical patriot or "Greco/Judeo/Christian/Cartesian Moderns" behavior.

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  71. I didn't want to push them back, T, I want to eliminate them!

    ...instead, when 72 are huddled together...

    We Punted.
    AGAIN

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  72. 2164.
    I took it as a welcome. This EB has always been known for it's sometimes rough and tumble but always candid views.
    It is a place where Bogey and Hemmingway would have hung. Where Robert Mitchum and Lee Marvin in their days would have stomped some guys who thought they were thugs.
    It's the EB...I'm just waiting for the T-shirts to come out..A big full frontal ears out charging bull with tusks dealing death to the bad guys...XXL ..extra $2.00.

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  73. Doug,

    I fully understand and share in your frustration and concern. I wish the answer was easy, but it's not. You need to ask yourself, is the system able to overcome the corruption? If not, the only avenue left is to take matters into one's own hands. We berate Bush, but do WE have what it takes?

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  74. Somalia was never a US operation, so the failure is not really ours, we can lay it on the African Union.

    The Ethiopians succeeded, in achieving their Goals. Ethiopian borders are secure, the Jihadi are not on the march, but back trying to regain Mogadishu. Uganda has a few, 10,000, troops there, at least for a while. It'll slow 'em down, some.

    Ethiopia always said they had no territorial designs on Somalia, so out the door they go. No nation building for their Army. Leave that to the amateurs, they will.

    Go in, smash what you can, disrupt the Enemy, head on home with success in hand. Go back, do it again, later, if need be.

    Lessons to be learned in that.

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  75. U.S. News and World Report, citing a U.S. Army report out of Iraq, said American troops working with Iraqi border guards within Iraq were attacked by a much larger Iranian military unit in September. U.S. News said no Americans were hurt in the incident, but four Iraqi soldiers, an interpreter, and an Iraqi border policeman remain missing.

    The U.S. military said the account was accurate, adding that the incident with the American troops, who were training, advising and helping the Iraqi border police, could have been a result of confusion in the vast desert area along the border.

    "There is a lot of open terrain," military spokesman Lt. Col. Mike Donnelly said in an e-mail. "Visual sighting and happenstance encounters from a distance occur routinely."


    September Iranian Attack

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  76. Bernard Lewis on Islam
    "The other thing more directly relevant to my theme this evening is the signs of a return among Muslims to what they perceive as the cosmic struggle for world domination between the two main faiths--Christianity and Islam. There are many religions in the world, but as far as I know there are only two that have claimed that their truths are not only universal--all religions claim that--but also exclusive; that they--the Christians in the one case, the Muslims in the other--are the fortunate recipients of God's final message to humanity, which it is their duty not to keep selfishly to themselves--like the Jews or the Hindus--but to bring to the rest of humanity, removing whatever obstacles there may be on the way. This self-perception, shared between Christendom and Islam, led to the long struggle that has been going on for more than fourteen centuries and which is now entering a new phase. In the Christian world, now at the beginning of the 21st century of its era, this triumphalist attitude no longer prevails,
    and is confined to a few minority groups. In the world of Islam, now in its early 15th century, triumphalism is still a significant force, and has found expression in new militant movements."
    Bernard Lewis
    March 2007

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  77. WE did for a while, mat.
    But the US attention span is short, it's an ADD society we have.

    Which was well known. We went to War with the Society and Culture we have, not the one we wished we had.

    There is a need for tactics that fit US. That is where the Military let US down. They developed a Plan that did not fit the political realities of the US.

    The Strategic Plan, the Democracy Project, will fail because of it. If it had been said, in '02 that it would require a decade in Iraq, we'd not have gone in the way we did.
    We'd have found a different way forward, one that would have fit the realities of the Country we have.
    Perhaps with a different Stratgic Plan if the tactical problems had been dealt with, honestly.

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  78. Bernard Lewis, March 2007

    "The declaration of war begins at the very beginning of Islam. There are certain letters purported to have been written by the Prophet Muhammad to the Christian Byzantine emperor, the emperor of Persia, and various other rulers, saying, "I have now brought God's final message. Your time has passed. Your beliefs are superseded. Accept my mission and my faith or resign or submit--you are finished." The authenticity of these prophetic letters is doubted, but the message is clear and authentic in the sense that it does represent the long dominant view of the Islamic world."

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  79. No Mission Creep for the Ethiopians, gotta respect that.

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  80. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  81. Funny stuff, habu.

    History, ha ha

    History begins with Anna Nicole's death, it will end when the name of the father of her baby becomes public knowledge

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  82. d'Rat

    Sorry, but Ash is not representative of the US. And I don't care if CNN and Saudi money tells you different.

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  83. Much like the "New Math" intoduced in the mid 1960's, the "New History" began on 9/11/01..

    There wasn't much haha go'in round that day ...

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  84. "In the Christian world, now at the beginning of the 21st century of its era, this triumphalist attitude no longer prevails,
    and is confined to a few minority groups. In the world of Islam, now in its early 15th century, triumphalism is still a significant force, and has found expression in new militant movements."
    Bernard Lewis
    March 2007

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  85. PossumTater,

    http://www.jesusdynasty.com/blog

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  86. Yeah, but that was so long ago, that 9-11-01.

    The Islamoids hate being called Mohammedans, which is all the more reason to do so. Whether it is an accurate description, I'll leave that debate to Mr Churchill to argue, it was the term he used.
    He wrote the "A History of the English-Speaking Peoples", authority enough for me.

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  87. Bobal,
    Mat thinks he's Mother Superior!

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  88. The Federal Reserve's stance on interest rates helped spark a comeback on Wall Street last week, and investors are hoping that this week's data on new home sales, gross domestic product and personal spending will add momentum to the rally.

    ...

    On Tuesday, the Conference Board will provide its measure of consumer confidence in March. The market expects the index to slip to 109.0 from 112.5 in February, its highest level in 5 1/2 years.

    On Wednesday, the Commerce Department reports on orders of durable goods for February. The market is anticipating durable goods to increase 3.0 percent after a 7.8 percent decline in January - which along with falling Chinese stocks, a weakening dollar, recession worries and slipping home prices contributed to the Dow's big drop last month.


    GDP Data

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  89. Thanks Bob.

    I know I can get obnoxious, but thanks Guhd I can always count on Doug for some Pina Colada to sooth things down.

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  90. Thot you was gonna say "comes along and out obnoxiouses me."

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  91. Yes, if only Winny had spoken Arabic....

    Bernard Lewis (born May 31, 1916, London) is the Cleveland E. Dodge Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University. He specializes in the history of Islam and the interaction between Islam and the West and is especially famous for his works on the history of the Ottoman Empire.

    Lewis is one of the most widely read scholars of the Middle East, whose advice is frequently sought by policymakers. The Encyclopedia of Historians and Historical Writing has written that, over a 60-year career, he has emerged as "the most influential postwar historian of Islam and the Middle East."

    Bernard Lewis

    I suppose if Winston had written "A History of the Arabic Speaking People" his currency in trumping Mr. Lewis would be in spades. As it now stands he didn't even have enough points to open and had to pass.

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  92. Oil prices have now risen about 25 per cent since January when they traded below $US51.

    ...

    There was also tension in Nigeria, where an Indian and a Lebanese man kidnapped in Nigeria's oil rich south last week have been released, a diplomatic source said on Sunday.

    But a Dutch man kidnapped on Friday from Port Harcourt, Nigeria's oil capital, remained missing, as do two Chinese nationals abducted on March 17 in the southeastern state of Anambra.


    Iran Tensions

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  93. Doug,

    Sorry, but that would be just bad form!

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  94. (what PIGS our ex-Presidents have become: No wonder W has no real conservative roots when his dad is a sellout for MORE money.
    ...as if Truman would have had any of this!)
    I'll shoot an e-mail to Starling for his reaction.

    HOW TO SELL ANTI-SEMITES

    ...That's why former Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton have been the objects of Dubai largesse. Their Dubai friends have given millions to each of their presidential libraries. And Bill Clinton has raked in more than $1 million for speeches he's given in Dubai and the UAE.

    Dubai's PR machine went into high gear after 9/11 - in part to distract attention from the extensive use the terrorists made of the emirate. More than half of the hijackers traveled to the United States via Dubai. The 9/11 Commission noted that $234,500 of the $300,000 wired to the hijackers and plot leaders in America came via Dubai banks.

    Several months after 9/11, Dubai's newest best friend began his public association with the country. In January 2002, Bill Clinton gave his first Dubai speech (for $300,000). He' been legitimizing the country ever since.

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  95. Clinton was the rainmaker who introduced the emir to his friend and employer, Ron Berkle, the owner of Yucaipa companies and a major fund-raiser for Bill and Hillary.

    Last year, Yucaipa and the emir formed a new company, DIGL, for their joint ventures. So Bill Clinton is now an adviser and member of the board of directors of a company that is in partnership with the anti-Israeli government of Dubai.

    The Clintons won't reveal how much the former president pocketed for setting up this deal, except to report on Hillary's Senate disclosure form: "more than $1,000."

    A lot more. According to San Francisco Examiner columnist P.J. Corkery, Clinton makes $10 million a year from Yucaipa.
    (and we think MEXICO is corrupt!)

    Bill isn't alone in legitimizing Dubai. Other Clinton pals - including disgraced former National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, ex-Secretary of State Madeline Albright and Al and Tipper Gore - have attended highly publicized events there.

    Republican ex-Sen. Bob Dole and Democratic ex-Rep. Tom Downey lobby for Dubai; so does The Glover Park Group, home of Hillary Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson and former President Clinton press secretary Joe Lockhart.

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