“Soft despotism is a term coined by Alexis de Tocqueville describing the state into which a country overrun by "a network of small complicated rules" might degrade. Soft despotism is different from despotism (also called 'hard despotism') in the sense that it is not obvious to the people."

Monday, January 03, 2011

Where is a Stinger Missile When You Need One?


  1. What's the beef, Deuce?

    You were against the privatization of Federal lands. Part of Federal management of the "National Heritage" is the wild horse population, on those Federal Lands.

    You have supported that Federal management, whole heartedly.

    No privatization of those Federal assets is to be contemplated, by the "conservatives" of the Elephant Bar.

    I can get you one of those range horses, the adoption fee is $125. Keep and maintain the horse for a year, you gain title to it.

    The monthly board bill is $300, the training fee, $400.

    $700 per month, for 12 months and you'll get a trained saddle horse at the end of the process.
    $8,525 is all it takes. You'll get a horse with a market value of about %500.

    You see Federal regulations of meat processing plants have taken the bottom out of the horse market. The lame and sick are now transported to Mexico, for slaughter. This has raised the costs and driven down the bottom of the horse market.

    There is a surplus of horses, in the US. Fact of the matter is that there is not enough "open" Federal range to support ALL of the horses that are born, out there on the Federal range.

    Not enough wolves, either, to balance the population, naturally.

  2. You'll get a horse with a market value of about $500.

    Sloppy fingers. Mea culpa.

  3. The adopted horse will be 3 years old, when you first get it.

    4 years old when you get title to it.

    Just bought a 5 year old palomino ranch gelding, two years under saddle, at the auction, $625. The blue roan mare from the same ranch, also 5 years old, two years under saddle, $325.

    Geldings have a higher marketable value than mares, as using saddle horses. No one breeds the mares, as the off spring are next to worthless. Mares cycle monthly and the "cowboys" don't like the mood swings.

  4. 650, approx, acres per horse.

    How many acres to support a cow, and a calf out there? That's obviously what it's all about.

  5. What does a mustang bring from the "glue factory?" Enough to pay for the helicopter gas?

  6. The Federals have well manipulated the horse market, in the United States.

    Live is grand is the socialist "Western States"

    65% of the land is Federally controlled.

    The patrons of the EB want to keep it that way.

    Learn it, live it, love it.

  7. Oh, rufus, they cannot be taken to a processing plant, not until you gain title to the horse.

    That takes a year.

    A person can only gain title to four horses per year.

    There is a subsidy program available, for folks that break the horse prior to adoption.


    Horsemen receive guaranteed $700 for 90 days training
    The Mustang Heritage Foundation is doing what no other horse related organization in the nation has attempted – give a horse to a trainer for 90 days and guarantee $700 in payment, with the promise to help market the trainer and the horse to the public.

    “This is the answer for many of our nation’s talented horsemen who are losing customers or have customers who can no longer pay to have their horses trained,” said MHF Executive Director Patti Colbert. “Through the Foundation’s Trainers Incentive Program (TIP), horsemen can receive up to four mustangs, gentle them and place them for adoption in a period of 90 days and receive $700 for each horse.”
    Colbert added that the $700 creates a trickle down economic effect throughout the agriculture market through the continued purchase of grain, hay and horse care products. TIP can also help folks pursue new careers and support employment of those currently involved in farming and ranching, in addition to saving the U.S. government millions of dollars in the cost of feeding mustangs in long and short term holding facilities.

    Monett, Mo., horseman Chad Kelly has reaped the benefits of being involved with the program. Since becoming a TIP trainer in 2008, Kelly has placed more than 40 mustangs for adoption throughout Missouri and the Midwest and has earned more than $50,000 in TIP incentive funds.

    “I got involved with the program after competing in the first Extreme Mustang Makeover in 2007,” said the horseman who was also tapped to compete in the Fort Worth Stock Show’s Mustang Magic. “There is a ready market for the mustang as people are interested in their very hardy nature and uniqueness to our nation’s heritage. Most of the horses I have placed for adoption have stayed with me afterwards to continue their training or they are close by where the adopter can come and learn more about the training the horse has received. It’s been a win-win for everyone. These folks get a horse that’s been started pretty well for less than they would pay for some others and I often gain a new customer.”

    In order to qualify, certain criteria must be met to satisfy Bureau of Land Management (BLM) regulations, which is responsible for the management of more than 30,000 wild horses roaming public lands. Mustangs are periodically gathered and removed from herd management areas (HMAs) and are placed for adoption across the country.
    The most vital of criteria, among others, are that TIP trainers must be at least 18 years, must have a track record of using natural horsemanship training methods, have facilities that meet BLM requirements, as well as no history or convictions for abuse of animal.

    To obtain a full description of the program and to apply call Program Coordinator Kali Sublett at (254) 947-5530.

    Minimum time that the trainer has to have the horse, ten days.

  9. Pick the horses up from the BLM, after being approved as a trainer, maximum that can be taken at one time, four.

    It barely pencils, unless you have a market for the adoptable horses, placing four every month or so.

    Been looking into it, as I could place the horses in a "Wild Mustang" club. Raised $50,000 for lawyers, could raise the same for feed, maybe.

  10. Each Federal horse requires, by statute, 400 square feet of corral space, which is about double what a non-Federal horse requires, in real life.

  11. Lame horses and unbroken horses, they sell for $50, at auction.

    Then they're shipped to Mexico for "processing".

  12. Most of the horses I have placed for adoption have stayed with me afterwards to continue their training

    $700 per month, $8,400 per year.

    Life is grand!

  13. The round ups, helicopter included, are all done at a financial loss to the taxpayer.

    The Federals "balance" land use between the various needs of the Republic.

    The horses are protected, by statute. Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act.

    The Forest Service was going to violate the Act, planning on removing the horses around Heber, AZ. from the National Forest.

    Stopped 'em, cold.

  14. The Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act. passed the Congress, unanimously.

    Not a single dissenting vote.

    Learn it, Live it, Love it.

  15. The horses used to be shipped to a meat processing plant, in Texas.

    The Federals shut that industry down.

  16. So, Deuce, rather than a Stinger missile break out your check book.

    Save a horse, pay a cowboy.

  17. Have a meeting, tomorrow, on this very subject.

    Can I count on funding from the barkeep?

  18. Meanwhile I'm thinking of getting a bomb sniffing German Shepard.

    Did you know under Idaho rental law - my wife goes to the yearly state seminars - even if you advertise NO PETS OF ANY KIND ALLOWED - if someone says they need a Therapy Pet, you have to allow it?

    I'd imagine it would hold in condo units too.

    So a bomb sniffin' therapy Shepard may be on my list.

    A bomb sniffin' therapy defense attack Shepard, to be exact.

  19. How many horses should I plan on putting on the Elephant Bar tab?

  20. If you hate the federals so much why in the world did you hire out to them?

  21. One cannot discriminate against the handicapped, bob.

    To deny a handicapped person their therapy dog, discrimination.

    Of course I knew that, it's a Federal thing.

    Everyone that "does" real estate, professionally knows that.

    The Fair Housing Act, 42 U.S.C. 3601 et seq., prohibits discrimination by direct providers of housing, such as landlords and real estate companies as well as other entities, such as municipalities, banks or other lending institutions and homeowners insurance companies whose discriminatory practices make housing unavailable to persons because of:

    * race or color
    * religion
    * sex
    * national origin
    * familial status, or
    * disability.

  22. The Mustang Heritage Foundation is a private concern, bob, not Federal.

    Though their funding sources, not sure what they are, yet.

    Not sure it makes much difference.

    I do not "hate" the Federals, I just do not think much of their socialist management of our national assets.

    Good to have you back.

  23. The BLM lady told me that the entire management of the horse herds may be transferred to the Mustang Heritage Foundation.

    Though that seems far fetched, to me.

  24. The Federals do not cut the check, the Foundation does.

    The objective is to save the horses from the Mexican processing plant, if it is at all possible, practical and profitable.

  25. Or from an existence in the "holding pens", waiting for adoption.

    Once the horse is five, it's beyond the learning curve.

    Sentenced to a life of Federal confinement and subsidy.

    Costing US millions per year.

  26. From the Wild Horse Act

    The Secretary shall manage wild free-roaming horses and burros in a manner that is designed to achieve and maintain a thriving natural ecological balance on the public lands. He shall consider the recommendations of qualified scientists in the field of biology and ecology ...


    The Secretary shall cause additional excess wild free-roaming horses and burros for which an adoption demand by qualified individuals does not exist to be destroyed in the most humane and cost efficient manner possible.

    So come on boys, step up, open those check books.

    Save a horse, pay a cowboy.

  27. They chas'em down, just to pen them up for the rest of their life? Are you Sure?

    How many acres of that rangeland IS required for a cow and a calf?

  28. Depends upon the range, rufus.

    From 1000+ acres per head in parts of Nevada to 50 acres in well watered areas.

    The BLM holds the horses until they are around six or seven years of age, then kill 'em, in the most economical and humane manner available.

    RENO, Nev. -- Wild horse activists are criticizing U.S. Bureau of Land Management Director Bob Abbey's plans to attend a Las Vegas conference held by groups that support slaughter of the animals for human consumption.

    Advocates think it's inappropriate for Abbey on Tuesday to address groups that seek to profit from horse slaughter, said Ginger Kathrens, director of the horse advocacy group Cloud Foundation based in Colorado.

    United Horsemen, a Wyoming-based nonprofit pushing for a plant in that state where horses could be slaughtered for human consumption, is organizing the summit to be held Monday through Thursday at the South Point Hotel, Casino & Spa.
    The BLM alone manages 38,365 wild horses and burros in 10 western states. Another nearly 38,000 are in holding facilities in Kansas, Oklahoma and South Dakota.

    If the horses are not slaughtered for consumption in Japan and France, the historic markets, they are just slaughtered, eventually.

    The Federals removed the government veterinarians from the processing plants, which were required by Federal Statute to be there if the meat was to be consumed, by people.

    The plants closed.

    I have read reports of the horses being shot as it was decided, by local managers, that was the most humane and cost efficient manner to dispose of them.

    excess wild free-roaming horses and burros for which an adoption demand by qualified individuals does not exist to be destroyed in the most humane and cost efficient manner possible.

    And yes, rufus, I am sure of it.
    I've spent 40 years around this business.

    We stopped the Forest Service because they did not do the "studies" required, not because it was illegal to kill the horses.

  29. If you can get the horses as yearlings, they gain enough weight in a year to make holding them for slaughter pencil out.

    The BLM only adopts out the 3 year olds. They're full grown, then.

    When one factors in the wild horses on the Indian Reservations, over 16,000 just here in AZ, the numbers become staggering.

  30. .


    I just sent you an e-mail with those files we discussed on the

    2010 Bosco Awards

    Please take a look at them when you get a chance. See if you think its worth putting up in the format I have. Let me know if you have any trouble recieving the files.



  31. When I said those lands should be privatized, there was reason for it.

    But you fellas want to preserve the status que.

    Horse population management is certainly part of that status que.
    Even if the cattle are removed, it would not change the outcome, just delay it for a couple of years.

    The cattle are rotated off the range, going to slaughter. In lots of areas, here in AZ, the grazing permits have been revoked, for the cattle.

    The horses, as in Heber, still create management problems for the Federals, regardless.

    Here, too, the State Fish & Game wants them off the range, as the compete with the elk, antelope and deer for forage. All animals that Fish & Game hold in higher esteem, than horses.

  32. Basically, rufus, you need 30 pounds of quality feed, per animal, per day.

    I am told that in the Florida panhandle that equates to a couple of head per acre.

    In other locales you'd destroy the range, at that rate. Over grazing was often practiced, on Federal lands, in the past.

    There is just so much foraged to go around, in the dry Mountain West.

    Last year, the Coconino National Forest approved grazing by nearly
    500 head of cattle in the 42,000-acre range allotment straddling the Mogollon Rim between Camp Verde and Strawberry.

    A Forest Service study showed that degraded range conditions due to past grazing and ongoing drought could not support the approved grazing levels, and that adverse effects to the watershed were likely to result from more grazing.

  33. That's 84 acres per cow unit, and was to much for the range to handle.

    Less than that and ranching does not pencil out. It does not pencil at 84 acres, really.

    The Rim area was once lush, it's not now.

  34. I am not a rancher, but if it takes 1000 acres to support one steer, someone is doing the wrong thing in the wrong place.

  35. Only the federal government would claim to manage such a ridiculous use of a resource.

  36. If there are too many horses, too many for what?

    There are too many white tail deer in the East.

    They can eat more private landscaping in a week than any cow is worth. We don't bring the federal government in to chase the deer in helicopters.

  37. Don't manage the land at all. Let nature take its course.

  38. Down with the Bosco Awards.

    Not worth putting up.

    Just cause you want a
    Therapy Animal doesn't mean you are disabled.

    After reading rat all these years I badly need one, but I'm not disabled. I may be Fucking Farmer Bob in need of a Therapy Dog, but not disabled, no, not yet.

    I've been thinking of a nasty name for Trish, and have one too, but am going to decline using it.

    And to think, I've held the highest minded literary discussions with the woman.

    I'm devastated.

  39. The BLM has over 75,000 horses.
    Almost 40,000 out on the open range, no geldings.
    20,000 breeding mares, each drop a foal a year.

    Figure it out.

    What would you do with 'em?

  40. The Callaghan gathering is focused on gathering horses for fertility control and releasing most of them back to the range. The BLM plan is to gather 866 horses and release 645 back to the range.

    The BLM also reported 13 deaths, including four that were gather-related. One had a leg injury and another had a spinal injury.

    Another had a fractured ankle and another had a fracture caused when another horse kicked it, the BLM stated on the website.

    South of Ely

  41. Most of the northeastern forests were one marginally profitable farms. They didn't pencil out
    either, were abandoned, and are more valuable now for timber and recreation.

    Why should cattle ranchers be given priority to overgraze federal land?

  42. Drive from Twin Falls to Vegas - nothing.

    Except to an eye like mine.

    Leave it all be, it's beautiful.

    It used to be wet there, ancient men, large animals you wouldn't believe. Now it's dry lake beds, sierra after sierra, and sage.

    Nothin', to the city eye.

  43. Well, those horses looked pretty fat, and sassy to me.

    That's starting to strike me as some Feds looking for "sumthin to do."

    I'm with Deuce on this one. Leave'em alone, and if they get too populated, and sick we'll deal with it then.

  44. The deer did not get a Federal Management law written on their behalf, Deuce.

    The horses did, it passed the Congress, in 1971, unanimously.
    1971, 30 years ago, back when you think the Federals and the US were still on the "right course", as you said earlier, just today.

    As you say, in PA the deer are on private land, in the West, they are on public land, so the Federals manage it. As is part of their mandate.

    You support the Federals managing the land, rather than privatizing it. This is part and parcel of that Federal management of the "Heritage" of the country.
    Which you have fully supported, in the past.

    Read the Act, it is quite clear.
    Passed without objection or dissent, in 1971.

  45. Valley Forge National Historical Park has been called an oasis in Southeastern Pennsylvania. Roughly five square miles of thick trees, rolling hills and wide-open fields surrounded by highways, shopping malls and housing developments.

    Predictably, the white-tailed deer population is thriving here.

    Thirty years ago, a couple hundred deer roamed the grounds, roughly 30-35 per square mile, living well with other species. Today, according to Park managers, their numbers have swelled to more than 1,200, as surrounding habitats were converted to public use and natural predators eliminated. Spend a few minutes in the park and you’ll see groups of deer, roaming the grass, eating the trees and shrubs.

    Kristina Heister, Valley Forge’s Natural Resource Manager says, “they are out of control.”
    Heister believes the deer have been feasting on the park’s natural resources so aggressively, they’re killing the forest and crowding out other species like rabbits and ground-nesting birds. She blames them for devouring the “understory” of the forest, calling it a form of “habitat destruction”.

    Read more:

  46. That is not how the Federals manage their mandate.
    You all know that.

    There is no such thing as Federal benign neglect in land management.

    There is no support for "leaving them alone", not in the Law.

    Not in the Federal land management plans, which everyone here has supported, over my objections.

    Save a horse, pay a cowboy.

  47. High Mileage Rufus -did you see my post about dimpled cars the other day?

    We don't need ethanol, we just need to dimple our cars like golf balls.

    Looks good too, once you get used to it.

    All proven true on Mythbusters

  48. The Federals are killing the deer, Deuce, that's management.
    Just as with the horses.

    The plan is already underway. Federal sharpshooters with high-powered rifles and night-vision scopes are prowling the grounds after dark, killing off the white-tailed deer one by one. The meat is being used to feed the homeless. The goal is to thin the heard dramatically over the next four years, reducing the numbers by more than 1000 to the once-manageable 35 deer per square mile. Media and the public are not allowed to observe the hunts. The Park Service says it’s to protect the safety of all involved and insure the shooters aren’t distracted while carrying out their mission.

    “This plan does not call for the elimination of white tailed deer from this park,” Heister explains. “There are our largest native herbivore in this part of Pennsylvania and we want to keep them here but as a balanced part of the eco-system, not managing for one species to the exclusion of all others.”


    Since the deer management program started in November, biologists report 225 deer killed and nearly 7000 pounds of venison distributed to the needy, calling the operation "safe, humane and effective".

  49. 225 deer killed, in two months.

    Go Team America!

  50. Chasing wild horses around with a helicopter strikes me as idiocy on a federal level. If there are too many horses, send in cowboys and see how well they do chasing the horses. That ought to be fairly entertaining and good for tourism.

    Those horses look like they can run thirty miles. Not many domestic horses could run a third as long. Look at the terrain they are running on. How many of them will lame out after that? Frankly, it would be better to shoot them if there are too many, which I find it hard to believe.

    There are too many cattle, that is for sure.

    The US AID did the same ridiculous thing in Costa Rica. They supported taking down 60% of the forest to raise cattle, which the Ticos did. Now in rainy seasons a lot of the hills are collapsing because of the erosion started by cattle paths.

  51. Rat, down from Twin Falls down through to Vegas they haven't done a damn thing in decades.

    It looks today exactly like it did when I was sixteen.

    Only there's a few more casinos in the little cities. Towns, rather.

    You hardly ever see a BLM truck.

    They may push some papers around in some office somewhere, but out amongst the sage? nah

  52. No benign neglect in PA, on Federal lands.

    On private lands, the State Game & Fish has jurisdiction, correct?

    They may be practicing benign neglect, how is that working out?

  53. the erosion started by cattle paths

    I can believe that. Along the rivers here some of the hills are like washboards. But not much erosion as there is little rain in most of the places that were grazed in the old days. Feedlots put an end to it.

  54. .

    Saw a news story on tv a few minutes ago.

    Evidently a couple in one of the suburbs here got into an argument. The woman is accused of throwing finger nail polish remover on the guy, lighting him on fire, and then chasing him around with a butcher knife.

    She told the judge, "I didn't combust him your honor. I was just lighting my cigarette."


  55. They cannot get 'em caught without the copters. It is not done for the promotion of tourism, but for land and livestock management purposes.

    You have supported the Federal management techniques, when I called for privatization.

    Enjoy the fruits of that Federal management.

    What is out on that range, bob?
    As I recall, driving from Reno to Vegas, there was a whole lot of nothing, there.
    No grass to speak of.

    No cattle, no horses, not much of anything agricultural. As I remember it.

  56. How is it going? When I was a boy the Schuylkill River ran black for fifty miles past the private coal mining washing the coal in the river. Today trout run almost the entire lenth to Philadelphia.

    Six out of every ten acres in Pennsylvania are forested. Fifty-nine percent of the state is in forest, totaling nearly 17 million acres.

    Other primary land uses in Pennsylvania include cropland at 16 percent and pastureland at 4
    percent. The remaining 21 percent are
    under a variety of other non-forest uses,
    including urban and other developed

    There is a high percentage of forestland
    in most counties in Pennsylvania.
    The highest percentage is found in the
    north-central counties, the lowest percentage
    in the southeastern counties. The largest
    share of forestland, about 74 percent, is
    in the hands of private owners.

  57. All in all not going all that badly in Pennsylvania except for too many deer and too many Democrats in Philadelphia and Pittsburg.

  58. The Federal land managers are not fond of horses, they are as bad, for the land, as the cattle.

    State Game & Fish do not hanker towards them, either.

    The round up and slaughter of the horses, as exemplified by the Marilyn Monroe and Clark Gable in "The Misfits" is what got the Wild Horse Act passed, without dissent.

    Roslyn divorces Ray in Reno and then meets widower Guido. He likes her but introduces her to cowboy Gay, and those two fall in love. When she learns that Gay, Guido and Perce are going to turn wild horses ("misfits") into dog food, she protests.

    Which leads US to where we are today, Federal management of those herds, using Science as their guide. As per the Law.

    As with the deer management in PA, on the small Federal holding, there. But here, in the West, the Federals control it all.

    As you have supported, in the past.

  59. The federals own less than 4% of PA timberland.

  60. Jackrabbits, rattlesnakes, an occasional crow.

    You're right, won't support much of anything.

    Once in a while you might see some cattle by a dry (mostly) lake bed that still holds a little water.

    Up in the hills though there are deer, some elk, some bear, etc.

    The trees in the hills struggle to get 8 feet tall.

    But I think the whole area is truly beautiful, just as it is.

    The stars are magnificent.

    I suppose there are some coyotes around too, though I've never seen one.

  61. I am not impressed with land management in the West privately or publicly. I am a conservationist, not an environmentalist. I am all for letting somethings alone.

  62. A private owner here, an old farmer acquaintance, slaughtered the south side of Moscow Mountain. I have had my eye on that mountain all my life, and it's never been touched, except with a slow and thoughtful saw, and he clear cut more than a third of it, the bastard.

    I'd rather have the feds manage it, after seeing what he did.

    Great wheat farmer, but he should not have done that. He certainly didn't need the money.

    Our whole community moaned about it.

    Let him die accursed and forgotten by his compatriots!

  63. Big cattle/pastoral/sheep stations here range from 400,000 acres to Anna Creek Station at 6 million acres. The world's largest cattle station.

    They use choppers out here on 'em all the time.

  64. Bob, they did the same thing with leveraged buyouts of huge stands of timber. Wall Street debt financed raiders of the asset rich private and public timber companies. After they took them over, they took down huge tracts of timber and sold the logs to Asians in order to finance their takeover.

  65. But they control over 65% of the West.

    If you remove the cattle, you remove the man managed infrastructure that supports the cattle and the horses.

    Grazing with its destruction of native grasses and forbs causes rapid run-off following rainstorms. Rapid run-off prevents sufficient time for the water to percolate into the water table.
    In addition, groundwater pumping such as for livestock windmills and water catchments, and for irrigated fields for alfalfa and other cattle forage, are key factors in lowering water tables.

    Groundwater extraction adjacent to our desert watercourses causes reduction of in-stream flows, as well as lowering the water table and impacting riparian root zones (see illustrations). As a result, Arizona’s once lush desert watercourses like the San Pedro, Verde, Salt, Gila, Bill Williams and Big Sandy Rivers have lost much of their native fish, wildlife and esthetic values. As the graphics show, these riparian areas are needed by the majority of Arizona’s birds, mammals and other wildlife at some point in their life cycles.

    Arizona once had many beautiful grassland habitats. They have now undergone desertification and become desert-scrub at best, and often simply moonscapes. Grassland species such as Grasshopper, Baird’s, Botteri’s, and Cassin’s Sparrows, Montezuma Quail, Sprague’s Pipit, and longspurs, are just a few avifauna that have suffered from the desertification and conversion of the Southwest’s grasslands to desert wasteland.

    And on the 4% of PA that the Federals do control their policy is clear, as per your link:

    “I am a biologist. Biologists don’t get into this field because they don’t like plants and animals. What I tell them is that this is what the best available science tells us, this is what National Parks are about, preserving the bio-diversity of the system and what we have chosen to do here is the most humane and effective way of reducing the deer population.”

    The science says there are to many horses on the Western American range.
    They are destructive to it, as are cattle. You have told us that the cattle have ruined Costa Rica, just as the Federals are afraid the horses will ruin the Western range.

    The Federals will manage those herds. You want to save the life of some of those horses, open your check book.

    Save a horse, pay a cowboy.

    That's the Law.

  66. I used to have arguments with my dad about this sort of stuff.

    The basic outlook of his generation, if he was any example, was there is so much of it you couldn't possibly exhaust it.

    Big day again tomorrow.

    Take care.

  67. Well then, Deuce, you should support the removal of all those horses, as a wildlife conservationist.

    With the arrival of cattle in the 1870’s such vegetation at these springs and wetland seeps was rapidly and systematically obliterated. Ranchers erected small dams, stock tank impoundments, or windmills at these areas.

    Such areas are now deathtraps for wildlife that approach these defoliated, cattle-blasted moonscapes. Without the protective cover of vegetation, wildlife fear approaching, and if they do they become easy prey from predators, or from diseases from cattle-polluted water. Birds, mammals, amphibians, and other reptiles, dependent on these vital watering spots in the desert, have suffered greatly.

    Without those infrastructure improvements, by the cattlemen, the horses would not survive.

    They are certainly less hardy than the cattle.

  68. The horses are not "native" species.

    Which is why Game & Fish does not want them on the range.

    If it were not for the management required by Wild Horse Act, they'd all be dead.

  69. That was the "Plan" of the Forest Service, on the Coconino National Forest.

    Remove 'em all.

  70. At least with the BLM management program some of the horses remain on the range.

    Without it, they'd all be gone.
    As was the trend line, prior to 1971.

  71. If I'm not mistaken, you've had wild horses in Arizona/New Mexico since the 1500's. That, IIRC, is when the Spanish explorers met the Apache. The Apache killed, and ate, what horses they could, and the rest of the four-legged critters lit out for the hills.

    I imagine a lot of the horses caught this year, and ultimately "put down" have bloodlines that reach all the way back to those old Conquistadore equines.

    That might not be indigenous, but it certainly seems long enough to be granted "citizenship."

  72. .

    Hey, Ruf.

    I like your Rufus II screen name.

    Somehow it reminds me of Ramses II, the pharoah not the condom.

    Makes me take what you say a little more seriously.


  73. Get back to work, Q. We're waiting for our 'wards.

  74. .

    Done Ruf. Just have to see if Whit can run it or if I need to plug it in.


  75. ARCHAEOLOGISTS on the island of Crete have discovered what may be evidence of one of the world's first sea voyages by human ancestors, the Greek culture ministry says.


    "Up to now we had no proof of Early Stone Age presence on Crete," said senior ministry archaeologist Maria Vlazaki, who was not involved in the survey. She said it was unclear where the hominids had sailed from, or whether the settlements were permanent.


    The team of archaeologists has applied for permission to conduct a more thorough excavation of the area, which Greek authorities are expected to approve later this year.

    Find on Crete

  76. Good man, Q. I'm going to bed; I can't wait for tomorrow. I always look forward to your stuff. :)

  77. That's an amazing article, Sam. It just makes you wonder, doesn't it?

  78. The numbers speak for themselves:

    BLM estimated there are 30,000 wild horses and burros in the entire west. There are over one million head of cattle in Arizona alone and the cattlemen say horses are the problem?

    A horse does no eat anymore than a cow. You could reduce the freeloading cattle heard in the entire west by 30,000 and "the problem" defined by the cattlemen goes away. (By the way the monthly fee these bereaved cattlemen pay for grazing rights per month is less than one McDonald hamburger. Correct the ranchers pay about $1.50 per month per cow.)

    If you give the ranchers the benefit of the doubt, which the statistics make laughable, their wild horse problem has a whopping economic cost of $1.50 per horse per month or $45,000 across the entire US.

    The last time I checked, you could lease a helicopter for about $1,500 per day. Since there are 30 days per month that is $45,000 per month per helicopter without fuel and pilot.

    Please feel free to show me what I am missing about the cattleman's wild horse problem?

  79. You need about three acres to graze a cow in Pennsylvania. DR says they need 1000 acres in Nevada. That means the federal government is allowing grazing on land in Nevada that is .3% as efficient as one acre of grassland in Pennsylvania.

  80. A rational use of an asset that is only 10% as efficient as another asset borders on the absurd. What would you do with a truck that can operate only 10% of the time let alone .3% of the time?

  81. I've driven forever in Nevada before I see a cow. Maybe they are there but few and far between. Never have seen a wild horse out on the range.

    I open the porch door at 3am after using the rest room, for a smoke - in 10 degree weather a student staggers by in the snow, singing.

    If he falls over and passes out in this, he will freeze to death.


  82. from Mat - Mt Carmel Fire -

  83. A ranch that sold on the NM-AZ border, near Springerville, AZ:
    The H Bar V

    86,000 acres Federal permit, 5,800 acres deeded -
    520 permitted cattle units.
    165 acres per cow.

    $7,200,000 – Cash

  84. In parts of Nevada, Deuce, it's a moonscape.

    Check out the listings, they are representative of working cattle ranches.

    Udall Ranch
    Apache County, Arizona

    The ranch well has historically been used for livestock and domestic purposes only although some irrigation would be possible. The ranch has not had any active farming on the property for over fifty years. The Little Colorado River has a seasonal flow and typically only runs during the summer monsoon months.

    1,700 acres deeded
    No Federal permit


  85. The low grazing fees, Deuce, are part of the reason the management of the range is referred to as:
    Welfare Ranching

    As I said earlier, to gag,it is also is Welfare Hunting

    The entire management of the Federal lands allows the Western end user to be subsidized by the Easterners.

    It is part of a grand deception.

  86. I have not dealt with the BLM, but the Forest Service is closing out the grazing permits as quickly as they can. At least here, in AZ.

  87. The "Redder" the State, the higher the Federal subsidies, seems to be the "rule of thumb".

  88. That's $1.50 per month, Deuce.

    On one of the listing, $1.36

  89. The Stinger Missile should be fired by the American taxpayer, but we learned yesterday that outrage is out to pasture these days and it is not nice for me to be upsetting the horses.

  90. Open your checkbook, if you want to "Save" a horse.

    The Federal land managers would just kill 'em all, if given the chance.

    I have watched them try to circumvent the Law.

    As long as the Federals maintain control of the land, that's what you'll get. Time and again.

    How many horses should I put on your account? Given it's you, a discount to $7,500 per year per horse would be okay.

    We could sell the horse, after a year of training and board, get $500 - $600 for it.

    Maybe more if we can shoot off its' back. Cowboy Mounted Shooting horses get a market premium.

  91. So to use their math, we have a wild horse problem of $1.36 per month per set of hooves.

    There are 30,000 of these beasts scaring the ranchers and pillaging the West, all of them, every worthless damn pony at a total monthly combined cost of $40,800. This means, wild horses across the entire 20 western states, are depriving cattle of their deserved breakfast at the outrageous cost of $2000 per state per month, doing grave damage to the ranchers and depriving the cows of their just dues.

    Call out the federal helicopters. Maybe we could use the Ospreys as the horses cannot actually shoot at them.

  92. Speaking of horses my daughter is certainly beginning to take them seriously. She is signing up for some class Therapy for Horses, she'll get some kind of certification, Horse Therapist. And she's gotten herself into the Ohio University horse program. As far as I'm concerned this is all to the good, and she has made a fast friend in that Miss Marion, wonderful lady. I've a hunch Miss Marion, nearly 80 years old and tough as nails, is suggesting these classes and programs to her, as I certainly had never heard of them.

    If you knew my daughter you'd be amazed. The idea of her shoveling horse shit is quite unbelievable to me, shoveling shit for some riding time. I really can't believe it, but there it is.

  93. Yolo Ranch
    Yavapai County, Arizona

    This one is sweet, but Blogger ate the first post.

    To bad, about that.
    It is a really nice place, lousy business deal.

  94. No DR under my economic calculation the land is being totally misused by private ranchers abetted by federals wasting money and national assets.

    Land that is under 10%, let alone .3% efficient for grazing should be left alone, let nature do what it has to do to recover it and let it be. The animals on the ground can survive on their own or not. The wolves and bears would return, the helicopters would leave and balance as nature intended will return.

    Man being part of nature would be sold hunting licenses as is necessary, to hunt whatever nature allows to survive and thrive, horse, burro, bear, bison wolf antelope or jackass.

  95. Yolo would be sweeter if permits were withdrawn and the land allowed to be what the land has always been.

  96. More youths at Mayfair Mall. On a hunch, because it is hard to find any mention of who exactly are the pillaging youths, ruling out Mennonites and Norwegians, the usual suspects, I thought perhaps they could be something other than Obama supporters, but no, Obama supporters one and all just celebrating the eighth day of Kwanzaa.

  97. That is close to the tree hugger position, Deuce.

    They are bidding on the prime pieces of riparian tracts of lease land, then fencing out the cattle.

    It seemed to upset gag, when last we spoke of it.

  98. The last maneuver that I heard of, by the Forest Service, was to move management of the horse herds to Game & Fish, so the horses could be hunted.

    Not sure how that is going, for them. The inventories and studies would still need to be done.

    Guess the State would pay for the studies.
    Game & Fish has a huge budget, a self-financing fiefdom. Paid for from the State licensing fees collected for hunting and fishing on the Federal lands.

    Federal Welfare Hunting.
    Life is Grand!

  99. The Yolo is mostly State lease lands. Same kind of subsidized deal.

    The type the tree huggers are targeting for competitive bidding.

  100. Bob:Drive from Twin Falls to Vegas - nothing.

    Except to an eye like mine.

    After nine days I let the horse run free
    'Cause the desert had turned to sea
    There were plants and birds and rocks and things
    there was sand and hills and rings
    The ocean is a desert with it's life underground
    And a perfect disguise above
    Under the cities lies a heart made of ground
    But the humans will give no love

  101. I don't see the point in privatizing Federal land. I like looking at it and using it, and I pay taxes for the right. If they sell to the Ted Turners of the world, I will not be able to use it and neither would you.

    Can you trust our government with the money it would get? It would be like giving money to a crack whore.

    What's being done with all the money being paid back from bailouts? No one knows and we are not supposed to ask.

    If all that land was sold, where would you ride your nags? Down Frank Lloyd Wright?

    Go back to baiting the Jews, that seems to be your expertise.

  102. Bob: I suppose there are some coyotes around too, though I've never seen one.

    I saw a coyote in the heart of Puget Sound City, on the I-5 exit 147 off ramp where it dumped me on 272nd Street. Looking for kitties to eat.

  103. A leading U.S. newspaper says the U.S. military is set to deploy a new intelligence drone to Afghanistan with the capacity to transmit live video images of movement across an entire town.
    . . .
    In contrast, Air Force drones now in operation use one camera, covering an area the size of one or two buildings.

    Major General James Poss, the Air Force's assistant deputy chief of staff for intelligence, told the Post the new aircraft will take the guesswork out of where to point the camera because the system "will be looking at a whole city."

    You can run but you can't hide.

  104. In an example of dialectical thinking run amok, Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has turned the strategic logic behind the patron-client state relationship on its head. He has "threatened" Washington that unless it supports his radical Zionist agenda, Jerusalem would ally itself with another global player that would supposedly be willing to prop up a militarized anti-Arab Jewish Ghetto in the Middle East.

    Faster, please.

  105. Gag is right, if the federals sold the land they would value it based on an economic use.

    If you use grass land for grazing in rural PA as being worth $2000 per acre and land in Nevada has a grazing efficiency of .3%, they would value the land at $6 per acre. The entire west would become nothing but private parks for the rich, Nantucket on a continetal scale, and mega-corporate farms and ranches.

    That is not tree hugging, that is reality. The best thing to do with most of the land is nothing. Don't manage it, just leave it alone.

  106. We got the money and Federal land to build Westworld, gag., so sure, we'd still ride along Frank Lloyd Wright Blvd. Though they did pave the polo field.

    The taxes you pay, do not cover the costs of Federal land management.
    Users of those Federal lands are being subsidized by those that do not us the lands.

    Deuce and whit, doug too, are subsidizing your hunting, why should they?

    What is the capitalist moralization for that piece of socialized subsidy?

    You do support capitalism, still, don't you?

    In any case, the reality of the Federal system is not about to change. Me and mine got Westworld, the golfers get the TPC, while Craig Jackson certainly gets a sizable subsidy, for his car auction.

    Enjoy it on Speedvision, or come on out.

    You'll find, on your trip to Payson, that the Federals control the water and future growth, there. Growth which they have, to date, stymied by not allowing water wells on the Federal land.

    Talk about job killing Federal policies, going back over a decade.

  107. That may be "best", Deuce, it is also not going to happen.

    How many horses should I put you down for saving, one, two or ten?

    Remember, you can adopt as many as you want, but can only title four per year.

  108. I think the horses can do quite nicely without anyone's help. Just keep the ranchers from shooing and poisoning them,

    Use my plan and the horses can protect themselves as they did for 400 years after they said hasta luego to the Spaniards.

    As to my direct helping with horses, I have enough problem dealing with free ranging jackasses.

  109. You have your opinion as always.

    Those of us who pay taxes, we all subsidize each other, that's the way taxes work.

    I choose to use my contribution to enjoy the outdoors. What do you use your contribution for?

    What is your Ox?

  110. It's not the "ranchers", Deuce, it is the Federal land managers.

    Get that straight in your head.

    No rancher in Heber was concerned about those horses. They've been there hundreds of years, since before there was a National Forest, there.

    It is the Federal Government that runs that show.

    More than 450 wild horses have been killed in Nevada. Some people say it is worse than when all the buffaloes were killed. Many of the horses were shot while running.

    Some people think the Navy used the wild horses for target practice. Pilots fly over the area where the horses were found. The horses were found far from the nearest road. The killings happened over a large area. It has been happening for the last two years. The Navy said that they do not let their pilots kill horses.

  111. I also pay taxes through the Pittman-Robertson Act. How much do you pay, Rat? Enough to satisfy your Ox?

  112. It has been happening for longer than a few years. And it's not only horses they shoot. I found hundreds of 50 caliber casings on a PRIVATE ranch in Wyoming last year. All government marked.

    This ain't mustang country, it's elk, deer, and antelope.

    I know ranchers in AZ and WY who test elk loads on mustangs.

    These aren't Easterners, but local boys, like you.

  113. "...outrage is out to pasture these days..."


    And no.

    I like that Bruno Mars song - has a nice sound reminiscent of a locomotive in the middle - but every time I hop into the vehicle after checking myself in a mirror?

    Bruno Mars loves me just the way I am, even when I haven't showered in four days. I must write him a letter.

    I finally turned the music off and drove the rest of the way home in a cocoon of dark silence.

  114. Gag said,

    Go back to baiting the Jews, that seems to be your expertise.

    Tue Jan 04, 09:24:00 AM EST

    Not really...He just has the vociferous "chillun" in the Peanut Gallery giving him cover...a little help from his friends...

    tardive dyskinesia

  115. I use the Forest, extensively, gag.

    That does not make it a "right".

    That does not mean I do not enjoy the Welfare Subsidy that Deuce, whit and doug provide me.

    It does not mean that there is no subsidy. Nor does it justify it.

    The Government is broke.
    Raise taxes and fees, or sell assets.

    No one wants to "cut back".

    I'd rather see them raise user fees and sell assets, rather than raise taxes to provide continued subsidies to those that have means to pay.

    A $125 per day hunt fee, for using Federal lands would not be outlandish.

    That would limit subsidy that people in PA have to pay, for folks that hunt in Idaho or Arizona.

    The $124 came off the top of my head, but seems to be close to the gong capitalistic rate charged in Texas.

    M.Y. Ranch
    A Texas Hunting Preserve
    Phone: 936-544-2222
    ... the cost is $275 each, for both days. Each additional day is $95 per hunter..

    The Rio Brazos Hunting Preserve charges quite a bit more.
    $450 for a half-day.

  116. Bayou Lacassine Outfitters
    No Limit Goose Hunts are $200.00 per gun!

  117. Your sense of entitlement, gag, is really touching, and telling.

  118. If it isn't a right, what is it?

    You do not believe in lowering costs, you just want to sell off assets and raise taxes. You never rant about lowering costs. You and Obama.

    You don't give an alcoholic booze, you don't give a crack whore cocaine. Same with our government. Until they prove themselves fiscally responsible, they deserve to work with the money they currently have.

  119. If it's not entitlement, what is it?

  120. I do not discuss lowering costs, because it has NEVER happened on the Federal level.

    No where has it occurred.
    Why would it start now?

    Reagan could not get it done.
    Bush failed, at that.

    Hunting on Federal lands is a privilege, not a right.

    Just like driving a car.

  121. trish said...
    "You know, Mister, there are only a handful million of us. We know one another. We are related to one another. Since I don't slander your relatives, how about laying off mine for a single freaking day!!!! Yeah, that would be a miracle."

    You've done so much better, allen.

    Mon Jan 03, 07:35:00 PM EST

    Really? Pray, tell.

  122. This comment has been removed by the author.

  123. Why should capitalists in Texas have to compete with Federal government socialist give a-ways?

  124. Bruno Mars loves me just the way I am, even when I haven't showered in four days. I must write him a letter.

    We are left wondering, enquiring minds needing to know, that after the four day hiatus, do you clean up nicely?

  125. Selah said...
    In an example of dialectical thinking run amok, Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has turned the strategic logic behind the patron-client state relationship on its head. He has "threatened" Washington that unless it supports his radical Zionist agenda, Jerusalem would ally itself with another global player that would supposedly be willing to prop up a militarized anti-Arab Jewish Ghetto in the Middle East.

    Faster, please.

    Tue Jan 04, 09:47:00 AM EST

    Still trolling, Dear?

    Yep, not a day can go by without some commentary by the...

  126. That Mr Lieberman, he is special.

    Wonder if he plans on going to the Olympics, too.

  127. Besides, gag, I have often advocated cutting the defense budget. Lowering costs, there.

    Instead Mr Obama and the Democrats raised defensed spending, to levels never before seen.

    If those fellas will not cut defense spending, when the US already spends more than the rest of the whirled, combined, they will not cut anything.

  128. It may be a privilege to you, but not to me. It's a right and it's an entitlement, because I pay for it. You buy a loaf of bread, you get to eat it. Do you not understand the concept?

    You refuse to answer my question. What is your Ox? You berate everyone else here about theirs. Do you not have one?

  129. That is absurd, gag.

    There is no portion of your Federal tax that is "lock boxed" for Forest Management. No more than there is for Social Security.

    The driving license analogy is the best.

    Paying taxes does not give you the "right" to drive on the highways, not without paying additional user fees.

    Such as the Federal gasoline tax.
    Such as license fees to the State.

    Read the Constitution, hunting is no where mentioned as a "Right".

    Because it is not one.
    It is a privilege.

    Common Law is on my side, on this.
    The history of game management and hunting is one of privileges, not rights.

  130. My point exactly, Rat. Those fellas, as you call them, do not deserve the right to sell any asset, because they are not responsible enough to use the money wisely.

    Another topic, please.

  131. If the feds sold the land it'd just be "No Trespassing Signs".

    Rat wouldn't be one of the owners.

    I'd never be able to offer to take him to those high mountain lakes outside McCall, cause they'd be owned by Ted Turner.

    No chance ever for an Idaho hot springs non-electrical hot tub for Melody.

    No cross country skiing for - hmmm - maybe Ash.

    No back country hiking for any of us.

    It'd be a damned sad world.

    Thankfully I don't see it happening.

  132. You can have the last work, Rat. It seems important to you. I am done with the topic.

    In a few minute, I will be going to lunch. I will get in my car, and go down the street. I will silently thank my government for the privilege of using their street to get to a restaurant, owned by an individual who knows that if he doesn't keep his costs down, he will not make a profit.

  133. I have no "ox".

    The whirled is fluid, and no man is an island. I can go with the flow.

    As close to having my ox gored, came when I realized that GW Bush and his Team betrayed US in the War on State Sponsors of Terror.

    But even there, I can understand why they did. They perceived "greater good" as being more important than revenge for a border raid.
    Maybe they were right, maybe not.
    They were, however, the elected representatives in a system I see as second to none.

    So I came to support their alliance with Islam, even though I initially thought it a poor course to take. I made my case, and lost the political battle.
    Policy disputes end at the waters' edge.

  134. Socialists, bob, always care about the "collective".

    Me, I prefer private property.

    But have no fear, the Federals will not be divesting their interests in Idaho.

    They may close the Forest, but that will be for the "common good".

    Exemplified by their closing of ANWAR to development and the multiple "Wilderness Areas" in the continental US closed to motorized traffic.

    Same as their not allowing nuclear plants to be constructed, it is all for the collective well being of America.

  135. "...after the four day hiatus, do you clean up nicely?"

    I don't frighten small children.

    Enquiring minds?

    I don't think so.

    If there's anything at all left to know, I hope to be informed of the fact.

    I would count that as a minor success in the scheme of things.

    It occurred to me earlier today: I don't feel so bad now for showing up at the DATT's wife's welcome luncheon half in the bag.

    I don't feel so bad for A LOT of things.

  136. DR: Read the Constitution, hunting is no where mentioned as a "Right".

    Because it is not one.
    It is a privilege.

    You've got it backwards, my friend.

    The Constitution enumerates powers of the government. If it ain't in the document, the powers are reserved to the states and the people thereof. We don't look to the constitution for rights, we look to the constitution for limits on the government's power to infringe on our rights.

    That's why it keeps saying, "Congress shall make no law..."

  137. "Really? Pray, tell."

    Just didn't strike me as allen at his sneering, offended best.

  138. Capt. Owen Honors was to be relieved of duty Tuesday as commander of the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise after he broadcast sexually charged videos taken aboard the ship, a senior US defense official told Fox News.

    There are some things you don't say or do in mixed company.

  139. Not that she isn't a lovely woman, the DATT's wife.

    And perfect for the job.

  140. A perfect opportunity for the government to start it's cost cutting efforts. Do not replace Jumping Joe's chief of staff.

    He doesn't need one.

  141. "There are some things you don't say or do in mixed company."

    Yes, that would be my takeaway, too.

  142. trish said...
    "Really? Pray, tell."

    Just didn't strike me as allen at his sneering, offended best.

    Tue Jan 04, 12:19:00 PM EST

    Gosh, Trish, we have so much in common.

  143. That we once shared it and that now we don't?

    But I never actually possessed the sneering element.

  144. With Republicans like Ahnold, who needs Democrats? Under Schwarzenegger, California's state debt jumped from $34 billion to $88billion.

    So what was their solution? Elect Jerry Brown.

  145. This comment has been removed by the author.

  146. .

    Yes, that would be my takeaway, too.

    I believe we have one too many commas here.

    Sorry, couldn't help myself.


    Parallax View


  147. 'Parallax' wasn't the term I read in the Andrew Sullivan post, that took me back to that night at Edisto and the remark upon something that can't be seen directly. I think "averted" vision or something like that was used, but it's been awhile.

    Oh, the things that we remember.

    And the things that we don't.

    I'm not looking it up.

  148. .


    You mentioned astronomy and view. It was the first thing that popped to mind since it refers to the way things appear different when viewed from different perspectives.

    Of course, parallax view refers to the physical but I thought that its use in another context was apt.


  149. .

    Google is for shit.

    It has cancelled my account twice in the last four days.

    Today I have tried to post one on a NYT editorial on the "Shield Bill" and although it takes initially, it’s gone in a few seconds.

    Doesn't matter if I put it into notepad first.

    Blogger doesn't seem to like links lately, at least mine.

    Or, since the editorial was negative on the Shield Bill, perhaps the US is following China's lead on political dissention and Google has succumbed.


  150. Apologies.

    I'm talking to myself.

    As fast as I can.

  151. .

    "Averted Vision" is also a term used in astronomy.

    It recognizes the fact that the retina is more sensitive to light than the center of the eye. Therefore, viewing an object at night, looking towards the side of the object rather than head on actually provides more detail.

    More applicable for the amateur astronomers than the big boys with all their equipment.

    Reminds me that about two years ago I had done the investigation and was just about to purchase an 8" or 10" telescope before events intervened.

    I'll need to take a look at that again.


  152. But I never actually possessed the sneering element.

    Tue Jan 04, 01:35:00 PM EST

    Au contraire, if you know the definition of "sneer". We differ only in motive and the use of "fuck", which you apparently think an adjective and I know to be a noun. What that says, who knows?

  153. "I know to be a noun."

    Not a verb?

    That's funny.

    Have a nice evening, allen.

  154. "It" can even be a reflexive verb, I think.

    But "Fornication Under Consent of King" is definitely a noun.

    Clearly, folk are forever verbally "ing" and "ed". But as you can see, "er" must be a noun without fail. When "mother" is attached there presents a modified complex noun; but most assuredly a noun. Now, " is tricky; did he or will he. It does work as and adjective, nicely - SOB (which says much about MS, but little more).

    It's been real.