“Soft despotism is a term coined by Alexis de Tocqueville describing the state into which a country overrun by "a network of small complicated rules" might degrade. Soft despotism is different from despotism (also called 'hard despotism') in the sense that it is not obvious to the people."

Friday, October 18, 2013

US complicity in the deaths and injuries of Iraqis. If Iraq had killed 4% of Americans, it would be 12 million people dead.

Posted on 10/17/2013 by Juan Cole
A new household survey of Iraqis has projected the civilian death toll from the Bush administration’s invasion and occupation of Iraq at roughly 450,000. Passive information-gathering techniques like logging deaths in the Western press have produced estimates closer to 150,000, but such techniques have been proven to miss a lot of people. (To my knowledge no one was counting all the deaths reported in the some 200 Arabic-language Iraqi newspapers in the 2000s, so even the passive information-gathering was limited. And, the Wikileaks US military log of civilian deaths did not overlap very much with e.g. Iraq Body Count, so both of them were missing things the other caught.)
Of those extra deaths beyond those who would have died if the US had never invaded, some 270,000 died violently, with US troops responsible for about 90,000 civilian deaths and militias for another 90,000. Of those killed violently, 60 percent were shot, and 12 percent died from car bombs. Some 180,000 died because of the destruction of the public health infrastructure (lack of access to hospital treatment, e.g.).
Despite the horrific total, this estimate for 2003-2011 is smaller than the Lancet study of some years ago, which was done under wartime conditions. The authors admit, however, that the death toll could have been even higher; this total is a projection based on 2000 interviews.
The US/ UN sanctions on Iraq of the 1990s, which interdicted chlorine for much of that decade and so made water purification impossible, are estimated to have killed another 500,000 Iraqis, mainly children. (Infants and toddlers die easily from diarrhea caused by gastroenteritis, which causes fatal dehydration).
So the US polished off about a million Iraqis from 1991 through 2011, large numbers of them children. The Iraqi population in that period was roughly 25 million, so the US killed or created the conditions for the killing of 4% of the Iraqi population.
If Iraq had killed 4% of Americans, it would be 12 million people dead.
Iraq did not attack the United States. It did attack Iran in 1980, but by 1983 the US was an ally in Iraq’s war against Iran. It also attacked Kuwait, which it occupied quite bestially, but it was out by spring 1991. There was no casus belli or legitimate legal cause of war in 2003. Iraq’s main crime appears to have been to be an oil state not compliant with US demands.
All this is horrible enough. Even more horrible is that the US occupation of Iraq sparked a Sunni Arab insurgency, which is still vigorous. Insurgencies typically take 10 to 15 years to subside. Some 5000 Iraqi civilians have been killed so far this year by that insurgency. US occupation is the gift that goes on giving.
Despite the Bush administration’s violation of the UN charter and its war crimes in Iraq, none of its high officials has faced prosecution. Some of them even have the gall to come on television from time to time to urge more killing.


  1. Well the important thing was finding all Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction.

  2. How dare America stop the single largest murderer of Arab in the history of the world.


    Damed if you do damed if you dont...

    Try saving a people that give a dam next time...

    1. Better yet, don't save anyone. When did we start doing that? World War I was about making Kaiser Bill stop sinking our ships. World War II was about hitting Japan back for hitting Pearl Harbor. Korea and Vietnam were about containing Communism. Grenada was about getting the 269 dead Marines in Lebanon off the front pages. Panama was just a law enforcement operation. Gulf 1 was about oil. That leaves Somalia and Bosnia and Kosovo. Saving Muzzies from their own warlords.

    2. As for Saddam being the greatest killer of Arabs, in history ...
      Another bull shit saga, told by the ignorant, believing we all are as unread as he is...

      The majority of casualties in the Iraq/Iran war were Persians, not Arabs.
      And, while there were almost a million dead Persians, even including them on Saddam's tally sheet would not gain him the title.

      The title of the Greatest Killer of Arabs, of all time goes to ....

      Genghis Khan
      The most disastrous effect of the Mongol invasion was depopulation.
      The capture of Baghdad and several towns was followed by horrible mas­sacres.
      The number of inhabitants who were slaughtered in Baghdad after its conquest ...
      .... according to Arabic sources ranged between 800,000 and 2 million

      Add to that the Mongol march into Syria and Turkey ...
      Saddam doesn't hold a candle, to Genghis Khan .

    3. Baghdad didn't have 800,000 to 2 million people to kill. In the 1100's it reached maybe 400,000, but this declined after Caliph removed to Samarra. A hundred years later was when Genghis Khan came calling.

  3. Mar.-Dec. 2003 - Operation Iraqi Freedom, US Takes Baghdad, UNAMI, Hussein Captured

    December 2003 Saddam was deposed and captured.
    End of that story, after December 2003 Saddam had no part of the US motive for further involvement in Iraq.

    All actions by the The US after that date were to further US and Saudi Arabian interests, not Iraqi interests.
    By the end of 2004 it was clear there were no WMD worthy of the US going to war, in the Iraqi arsenal.

    2011, the Us withdraws from Iraq. That is seven or eight years of the occupation of Iraq, to further the interests of the Us and its Saudi Arabian allies. To limit oil production in Iraq in an effort to keep that oil off the global marketplace.

    From 2004 until 2011, Saddam had nothing to do with the US presence in Iraq.

    1. Limit oil production? Iraq being a charter member of OPEC dinnit do it?

    2. Little wonder then that the "Saddam" excuse wore a little thin, and the Iraqi did not want US in their country.

      As in the Philippines, US occupation was a detriment to US interests...
      ... and did nothing to improve the lives of the average Iraqi.

      The US did not engage in genocide, even though there was a high body count.
      Genocide requires more than concentrated killing.
      There is an intent involved, while killing people is not even required to commit genocide.

      The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

      Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

      1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

      2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

      Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.
      Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
      Punishment of Genocide

      "Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

      (a) Killing members of the group;

      (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

      (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

      (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

      (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

      Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

      (a) Genocide;

      (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

      (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

      (d) Attempt to commit genocide;

      (e) Complicity in genocide. "

      An attempt to destroy a people, through a denial of their existence as a people, is enough to qualify as genocide.

      The US never had any intent to eliminate any particular portion of the Iraqi population.
      There may have been a bunch of bodies, but no intent to eliminate a tribe, sect or race of Iraqis.

    3. As in the Philippines, US occupation was a detriment to US interests...
      ... and did nothing to improve the lives of the average Iraqi.

      But to this day the Dixie Chicks can't play certain venues in the Deep South to save their life, for saying pretty much the same thing.

    4. Well, that may be one of the reasons i don't go to Dixie, the Deep South, Ms T.
      When I go south, it is to Mexico, not Alabama.

    5. When I was in Pensacola we called it Baja Alabama.

  4. Off topic, but possibly of some interest to Doug.

    PC number two is a $35 gadget called a MK802 ii from a Chinese company called Rikomagic (it's $31 now on Amazon) that runs Android 4.0. I have it set up as a desktop computer with a standard USB keyboard and mouse, plus a $20 box that converts the HDMI output to VGA, and a $10 monitor from a garage sale. I've loaded it with apps from the Google Play Store including DOSBox, which allows me to run even Windows 3.1 on this thing. Primarily I use it for browsing the web, IRC chat, Facebook, Twitter, and writing my Great American Novel on Wordstar 5.5.


    This chart provides a visual of Iraqi oil production from 1980 thru to the 2012.
    It is easy to see that every time Iraqi production approached 3 million barrels per day, the US attacked Iraq.

    Whether by Planning, Providence, or just Plain Luck, on the part of the Saudi.

    David Frum tells us that iraqi oil production, once again in the 3 million barrel per day range, is about to expand even further ...

    Little wonder then that the Wahhabi terrorists are ramping up another "Civil War", in Iraq.

    The US has been intricately involved in limiting oil supplies available in the global marketplace.
    Illustrated in Iraq, Libya and Iran

    1. Error alert, the Frum piece is here ...

    2. Rat is such a dumb fuck he can't even get his links right.

      And a self confessed asshole to boot!

      An opinion on everything, knowledge of nothing.

    3. It's like Obama tamping down production in the US by reducing permits on federal land by 40%. All he's really doing, inadvertently, is putting fields in reserve for when the private ones peak. There won't be a Donk in the White House forever.

    4. Least I can sign into Google account.
      Knowledgeable enough to do that.

      What is wrong with YOU Farmer Fudd

      What happened to your Authentication ...
      .... finally figure out you were being played for a fool?

      Guess so.

      You are back to being a nobody, from no where.
      Which is right where you belong.


  6. Other party elders, whose calls for compromise were often overshadowed by the tea party in recent weeks, blamed conservative groups such as Heritage Action, the Senate Conservatives Fund and the Club for Growth. They were influential during the debate, at times promising to help defeat Republicans lawmakers who voted for a compromise with Democrats.

    "The right is a multiplicity of various groups, some of which aren't even Republicans, but who think they can control the Republican Party," said Sen. Orrin Hatch of Utah, condemning tactics he referred to as "radicalness."

    Republican strategist Mike Murphy chided what he called "the stupid wing of the Republican Party."

    "There's tension and there ought to be a questioning of whether we ought to listen to such bad advice," Murphy said when asked about the influence of conservative groups. "We took a huge brand hit. It's self-inflicted. ... I'm glad there are no elections tomorrow."

    1. the showdown and subsequent criticism from establishment Republicans seemed to embolden defiant conservatives, who promised more hard-line tactics in the coming months. Some pledged to work harder than ever to defeat Republicans who stand in their way.

      "Congress has failed," the Tea Party Express said in a fundraising message.

      Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, a tea party favorite, hinted at primary challenges for Republican incumbents "from sea to shining sea" just hours after Congress voted to end the shutdown.

      "Friends, do not be discouraged by the shenanigans of D.C.'s permanent political class," she wrote on her Facebook page. "Be energized. We're going to shake things up in 2014."

      The Club for Growth on Thursday endorsed a GOP challenger to Republican Sen. Thad Cochran of Mississippi, who has yet to decide whether he will seek re-election next year. Tea party groups are also supporting the conservative challenger to Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell in Kentucky while backing like-minded candidates in North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee.

      Sen. Kelly Ayotte, R-N.H., said she hopes her party would move toward "common-sense problem solvers" in the future.

    2. "We took a huge brand hit. It's self-inflicted. ... I'm glad there are no elections tomorrow."

      Welp, now that they've lost the war on abortion, same-sex marriage, doctor-assisted suicide, Obamacare, a new war in Syria, and creationism in all the textbooks in public schools, maybe the RNC can rally everyone around an amendment to the Constitution banning the desecration of the American flag.

  7. The other side of the argument presented is that without US, and other nations too, intervention in Iraq, Kuwait would be incorporated into Iraq, and Saddam would most probably be in eastern Saudi Arabia by now. And perhaps as many Iraqis would have died in these squabbles and internal Iraqi repression as has occurred. There are lives lost by not intervening just as by intervening. The moral calculus of the world is not so simple as it is sometimes made out to be at the Libertarian.

    1. Kuwait was "saved" for the Wahhabi, way back in 1991.

      Saddam was not going to invade Kuwait, in 2000 or beyond.
      He had been whipped.
      If the US had not allowed him to use close air support against the Shia of Iraq, he would have been deposed, at least in the southern, oil producing portions of Iraq, by 1993.
      US acquiescence to Saddam's use of aircraft and chemical weapons in the revolt, which was encouraged by GHW Bush, ensured the survival of his regime.

      The US did intervene, in 1991, then backed a way, after instigating a rebellion against Saddam.
      It was Shia and Kurds that took the brunt of Saddam's attacks, not the Sunni, not the Wahhabi.

      The US played to the needs and desires of the Saudi Arabians.
      Keeping Iraq in turmoil, their oil of the global market.

    2. The US left the Shia to die in the streets, in their homes, after encouraging the rebellion..
      Not one of our proudest moments.

      It did limit Iranian influence in that region of Iraq, for a decade.

    3. Even with the rebellion, even with a anctions regime, Iraqi oil production was increasing.
      Check the chart posted above.
      By 2000 Iraqi oil production was again nearing 3 million barrels per day ...
      Something had to be done.

      The US invaded Iraq, occupied it for a decade.
      Reset the oil production levels, down to where the Saudi wanted them.

    4. In 2013 Iraqi oil production is again reaching, breaching 3 million barrels per day.

      The Wahhabi terrorists, the Saudi sponsored al-Qeada cells, are right back at it in Iraq.
      Pushing inexorably towards civil war, and the accompanying drop in oil production hat a civil war will entail.

  8. Off topic but interesting -

    Retired NFL Players Show 'Pronounced' Brain Abnormalities
    By Tanya Lewis, Staff Writer | October 17, 2013 10:14am ET

    Football players who suffered traumatic brain injuries show abnormal brain activity in their frontal lobe
    There's been much debate over the brain damage football can cause, and now a new study provides evidence that professional football players have brain abnormalities.

    Brain scans of retired National Football League players revealed the athletes are more likely to suffer disruptions in executive brain function, which is high-level control of other brain activity. And players who suffered the most head injuries during their careers had the most abnormalities, researchers found.

    "The NFL alumni showed some of the most pronounced abnormalities in brain activity that I have ever seen," study leader Dr. Adam Hampshire, of Imperial College London, said in a statement. [10 Things You Didn't Know About the Brain]

    However, the study's biggest limitation is the fact that it compared injured football players to healthy non-players, instead of comparing the players before and after their injuries, said physiologist Damir Janigro of the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio, who was not involved in the research.

    Previous research has linked playing football with developing neurodegenerative diseases. Retired players ages 30 to 49 are 20 times more likely than people in the general population to be diagnosed with dementia, Alzheimer's disease or other memory disorders, according to an NFL-commissioned report.

    Another study reported that 89 percent of a nonrandom sample of NFL alumni showed evidence of chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a progressive neural disease marked by behavioral changes, memory problems and Parkinson's symptoms.

    But many sports-induced neurological problems don't show up on a clinical test, as no reliable method exists for detecting and monitoring mild traumatic brain injuries while a person is alive.

    For the new study, Hampshire and his team recruited 13 retired National Football League players and 60 healthy volunteers. They put participants in a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) machine and had them perform a task that involved arranging colored balls in a set of tubes in the fewest possible steps.

    The researchers looked at brain activity in the participants' frontal lobe, where executive function takes place.

    The retired NFL players performed slightly worse on the task compared with the other volunteers. But the football players' brains revealed much higher activation and connectivity in their frontal lobe, compared with the brains of the others. The researchers saw the biggest brain abnormalities in players who reported being removed from play the most times due to head injuries.

    "It is highly likely that damage caused by blows to the head accumulate towards an executive impairment in later life," Hampshire said in the statement.

    The findings, detailed online today (Oct. 17) in the journal Scientific Reports, suggest that NFL players may be more likely to develop problems with executive brain function, which can cause difficulties in everyday life.

    "The study is a very carefully crafted piece of work," Janigro told LiveScience, but said that the lack of data on the players' brain function prior to injury is the study's fatal flaw. The NFL players' brains may have shown different frontal lobe activity even prior to injury. "It could be why they are good football players," Janigro said.

    The researchers acknowledge that more players must be tested and tracked using brain imaging over the course of several seasons to fully understand the brain deficits football injuries cause.


    Wife was telling me of something she read that claimed 45 (I think it was) of 50 football player brains autopsied showed brain damage.

    1. NFL = No Frontal-lobe Left?

      It's exciting to watch but far more destructive than bull fighting for the humans involved, and at least the poor usually get the meat of the bulls in Spain.

    2. Now are you going to regale us with your football playing past.
      Then blame football for your inability to sign inot a Google account.
      Use that as an excuse for your current lack of cognizant ability

      Wanting to tell us it is football, not Old Timers, that is causing you to slip slide away.

      Not so proud of your unauthenticated Fudd, now, are you?

      It finally "sunk in", aye, dimwit

    3. Would that people were as passionate about things which actually matter as they are about watching a ball go back and forth on some turf.

    4. Last week Farmer Fudd called it the ...
      ... Negro Football League, when the discussion was about the DC Redskins.

      Now it is .... something else ....
      . . Slip sliding a way ....

    5. Not in Lewiston anymore Miss T.

      And I did not say anything about any Negro Football League.

      Whackadoodle is lying again.

      I did say, even post I think, an article about the opinions of Native Americans on the issue and the article indicated it was no big deal to them, with something like 70 or 80% not upset at all.

      rat you really need help.

      I suppose it's possible some other anon posted something along your lines but I didn't read it. I skip a lot of it here these days.

      In which case it's another somewhat humorous example of you attacking me for something I had zero part in posting.

    6. It was certainly there, looked like a Farmer Fudd post

      Authenticated, by writing style.

      You are Anonymous, I decide what to credit to Farmer Fudd.
      No one talks to or about Anonymous, they speak of Farmer Fudd.

      i created the Farmer Fudd character,
      I;ll decide what to credit to his account.

      You are a hanger on, a remora.

      You have a facultative mutualistic symbiotic relationship with Farmer Fudd ...
      . . . as both parties benefit but are not entirely dependent on one another for survival.
      if you don't like it, sign-on.


    7. Authenticated, by writing style.

      then using the exact same technics we see that Rat is and was responsible for the hundreds of posts without his name quoting numerous people out of context and without any rhyme or reason.

  9. Farmer Fudd, this is one YOU should pay attention to.
    It may not be Old Timers, it may not be that bump you took on the head ...
    . . . playing football with a leather helmet ...

    LONDON: It's a wake-up call for an estimated 150 million people who don't get enough sleep.
    Scientists say sleep is the mechanism through which the body flushes waste from the human brain.

    The brain's method of waste removal — the glymphatic system — is highly active during sleep,
    clearing away toxins responsible for Alzheimer's disease and other neurological disorders, according to a study.

    Researchers say the brain's cells reduce in size during sleep, allowing waste to be removed more effectively.
    "This study shows that the brain has different functional states when asleep and when awake,"
    said Maiken Nedergaard of the University of Rochester Medical Centre.
    "In fact, the restorative nature of sleep appears to be the result of the active clearance of the by-products that accumulate during wakefulness."

    1. I'm sleeping like a baby these days. Getting too much sleep in fact.

      Nearly posted the other day an article about the brain and sleep, thinking of you.

      Ah! Here it is!!! --

      Your symptoms fit.

      You spend all day and most of the night ruining this once noble place. You need a rest, and counseling.

      I've had two naps today and am going to bed now.


  10. Everyone is sick to death of Desert Rat.

    He would put anyone to sleep.

    1. Night, night then, child ...
      It is well past your bed time ...

      Lights out!

  11. The Man who almost destroyed Islam – Genghis Khan.
    Genghis Khan attacked the Turko-Persian Muslim Khwarazmian empire of Samarkand to avenge the attacks being launched by the Arab and Persian Muslims in to Tartary (Central Asia).

    The Khwarazmıan empire was established by Turkmen and Kipchak Turks who had converted to Islam due to Persian and Arab depradations against them from the 7thcentury onwards. The Kipchak Turks had converted along with the Quarluqs after the Chinese defeat against the Arabs in the battle of the Talas river. By the 10th century, the nobility of the Kipchak Turks had interbred with the Persians and Arab Muslims and had established a large empire over Central Asia.

    This Turko-Persian Muslim Khwarazmian empire had carried on the Muslim tradition of attacking neighboring non-Muslim peoples.
    Their depradations against other non-converted Turks and Mongols from the 8th century onwards, gradually built a simmerring resentment among the non-Muslim Turks and Mongols against the Turko-Persian Muslim Khwarazmian empire

    Genghis Khan’s intention was not primarily to loot, but to destroy the enemy.

    Had the Mongols been motivated purely by intentions of looting the Caliphate (which ironically was itself a center where loot was collected and stored by the Muslims), the Mongols need not have traversed some four thousand miles from their homeland in Mongolia, to reach Baghdad, they could have as well attacked nearby Japan and Korea which were hardly a few hundred miles from their homeland and were more rich and endowed than Baghdad.

    1. The real reason why the Mongol horsemen made their way from Mongolia and started rolling back the Muslims from areas which are today known as Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, finally reaching Iran, Iraq, and Syria lay in the subterfuge, savage cruelty and other foul tactics which the Muslims had used to convert the Turks and Mongols to Islam This had led to a gradual accumulation of bitterness and a desire for revenge against the Muslims amongst the Turks and their related clans the Mongols.

      Foul tactics used by Muslims and their legendary cruelty against the Uzbeks, Tajiks, Kazaks, led to the Mongol invasion of Iran and Iraq

      From the seventh to the thirteenth centuries many Persian Zoroastrians, the Persian Nestorian Christians, the Turks, Chinese and the Mongols had nursed within themselves a grievance against the savagery which Muslims used to convert the non-Muslim population of Persia and Central Asia to Islam.

      The Mongol attack on Islamdom was a collective expression of resistance to Islam from the pre-Islamic Persians who had settled in China and Mongolia, and the Turks who had been waging a struggle against Islam in the 8th to the 10th centuries. It was a result of historical wrongs committed by the Arab Muslims on the Zoroastrian Persians, and by the Arab Muslims along with the Islamized Persians on the Turks, and in turn, by the Arabs along with the Islamized Persians and the Islamized Turks on non-Islamic Turks, Mongols and Chinese.


      It was this accumulation of grievances that led to the burst of the Mongol attack on Islamdom from 1200 that culminated in the sack and slaughter at Baghdad in 1258. Historians have failed to interpret the attack of the Mongols on Muslim Persia, and the Middle East as the Turko-Mongol counterattack on Islam as were the Crusades, which were the Christian counterattack against Islam in the 11th century.

  12. Mongol invasions of Syria

    Starting in the 1240s, the Mongols made repeated invasions of Syria or attempts thereof.
    Most failed, but they did have some success in 1260 and 1300, capturing Aleppo and Damascus and destroying the Ayyubid dynasty.
    The Mongols were forced to retreat within months each time by other forces in the area, primarily the Egyptian Mamluks.
    Since 1260, it had been described as the Mamluk-Ilkhanid War.

    During the governorship of Bachu in Persia, the Mongolian army under Yisaur attacked Syria in 1244.
    The reasons for it unclear, but it may be in retaliation for the Syrian participation on the Seljuk side in the battle of Kose Dag.[
    In the autumn 1244, Yisaur concentrates the Mongol forces in the upper Tigris valley where they subjugated the Kurdish province of Akhlat.
    Moving across, the Mongolian army encountered no resistance and ravaged the area en route.
    The fortified cities were untaken in his advance because Yisaur was not prepared for siege assault.
    Passing through the territory of the city of Urfa, he crossed the Euphrates.

    He marched directly to Aleppo but went as far as Hailan before the climate impaired his army's movements.
    Yisaur sent envoys to Aleppo to demand submission of tribute, which Malik agreed to pay.
    The same demand were sent to Bohemond of Antioch who chose not to fight them instead of defiance.

    Yisaur withdrew his force back up the Euphrates valley and received the submission of Malatia.

    In Egypt, Sultan Saleeh decided to acquiess in the results and made no attempt to raise an army to encounter the Mongols who had invaded his dominions in Syria.

    In 1251, as an expediency to buy peace, Sultan Nasir sent his representatives to Mongolia for the election of Möngke and agreed to make Syria a vassal state of the Mongol Empire.

    1. 1260 Invasion

      Under orders from his older brother, the Great Khan Möngke, in 1255 Hulagu sought to further expand the Empire into the Middle East.
      His forces subjugated multiple peoples along the way, most notably the center of the Islamic Empire, ...
      ... Baghdad, which was completely sacked in 1258, causing the destruction of the Abbasid Caliphate.

      From there, the Mongol forces proceeded into Syria.

      In 1260, Egypt was under the control of the Bahri Mamluks, while most of the Levant (aside from the Crusader states) was still under the control of Ayyubid princes.
      The Mongols, for their part, had combined their forces with that of their Christian vassals in the region, the Georgians;
      the army of Cilician Armenia under Hethum I, King of Armenia; and the Franks of Bohemond VI of Antioch.
      The combined forces captured the city of Aleppo, and then on March 1, 1260, under the Mongol Christian general Kitbuqa, took Damascus.

      The last Ayyubid king, An-Nasir Yusuf, was captured by the Mongols near Gaza in 1260.
      However, Hulagu promised him that he would appoint An-Nasir Yusuf as his viceroy in Syria.
      With the Islamic power center of Baghdad and Syria gone, the center of Islamic power transferred to the Mamluks in Cairo.
      Hulagu's intention at that point was to continue south through Palestine to Egypt, to engage the Mamluks.
      However, Möngke died in late 1259, requiring Hulagu to return to Karakorum to engage in the councils on who the next Great Khan would be.
      Hulagu departed with the bulk of his forces, leaving only about 10,000 Mongol horsemen in Syria under Kitbuqa.
      Some of Kitbuqa's forces engaged in raids southwards towards Egypt,...
      ... reaching as far as Gaza, where a Mongol garrison was established with 1,000 troops.

      The Mamluks took advantage of the weakened state of the Mongol forces, and, negotiating a passive alliance with the remnants of the Crusader forces in Acre, advanced northwards to engage the Mongols at the pivotal Battle of Ain Jalut in September 1260.

      The Mamluks achieved a decisive victory, Kitbuqa was executed, and the battle established a high-water mark for the Mongol conquests. In previous defeats, the Mongols had always returned later to re-take the territory, but they were never able to avenge the loss at Ayn Jalut.

      The border of the Mongol Ilkhanate remained at the Tigris River for the duration of Hulagu's dynasty. Sultan An-Nasir and his brother were executed after Hulagu heard the news of the defeat of Kitbuqa at Ain Jalut.

      In December 1260, Hulagu sent 6,000 troops back into Syria, but they were defeated at the First Battle of Homs.

  13. Are We Observing Extraterrestrial Intelligence Without Realizing It?
    Posted: 10/17/2013 3:50 pm

    Philosophy and the physical sciences have a long and interesting past spanning the entirety of human history. Philosophers have played the role of logically deducing the existence of certain physical phenomena that were untestable. Physical scientists have then either empirically confirmed or refuted the philosophical speculation proposed when the necessary technology and/or method were developed.

    Sometimes the philosophical speculations failed to describe the nature of reality, like the Ancient Greek proposition that the heavens were composed of a fifth element: aether . However, on several occasions, the philosophical speculations turned out to be quite exact. For example, in the 4th century B.C.E. philosopher Democritus deduced that the universe was composed of indivisible units of matter known as "atoms." This belief was substantiated over 2,000 years later by the theoretical physicist Albert Einstein (you may have heard of him).

    A similarly impressive academic partnership manifested when the Renaissance philosopher Giordano Bruno read the On the Revolutions of Heavenly Spheres by astronomer Nicholas Copernicus. Bruno found Copernicus's heliocentric model of the solar system ground breaking (which it was), and logically deduced that all stars in the night sky were fundamentally similar to our own Sun, and that they had worlds gravitationally bound to them. He famously stated that:

    This space we declare to be infinite, since neither reason, convenience, possibility, sense-perception nor nature assign to it a limit. In it are an infinity of worlds of the same kind as our own.
    Of course, we now know that Bruno was more or less right. Most stars seem to exist as systems with at least one exoplanet.

    In the modern world some believe that this ancient relationship between philosophy and the physical sciences is dead, or dying, or functionally redundant. But I most certainly disagree. Last week I had a chance to meet with philosopher (and systems theorist) Clément Vidal (@clemvidal). Vidal has pointed out that there are certain binary star systems that astrophysicists have had difficulty explaining with conventional astrophysical models. These binaries are semi-detatched stars that exhibit an energy flow that is irregular, but not out of control. Vidal argues that instead of an astrophysical model, we need an astrobiological model to describe these strange systems.

    In essence Vidal is claiming that these systems are not typical binary stars, but rather civilizations that have advanced well passed a Type 1 civilization on the Kardashev scale and are now actively feeding on their parent star. He calls these hypothetical civilizations starivores. And if he is right... then there are approximately 2,000 known starivores in our galaxy alone.

    Surely this idea is worthy of scientific attention and empirical testing. Democritus's speculation was tested after the introduction of the special theory of relativity. Bruno's speculation was tested as our telescope technology improved. Is there any theoretical model or technology we could use today that could validate or refute Vidal's speculation?

    Perhaps, the necessary test is related to understanding the nature of the binary systems "metabolism." Metabolism is one of the fundamental and necessary conditions for complex living systems because it allows them to draw and sustain order from the surrounding non-living chaos. So if these binary systems are actually intelligent civilizations feeding on their parent star then we should expect a degree of energy flow control that cannot be described by the laws of physics alone.

    1. This idea may come as a shock. Over the past 50 years scientists have been disappointed by data indicating that we are alone in the Milky Way. Physicists like Max Tegmark have even gone so far as to suggest that we are the first intelligent civilization to arise in the entire universe. And he might be right... but he might be very wrong as well.

      Major breakthroughs in the sciences can come from ideas that at first seem bizarre... even impossible. But the universe has also proved to be stranger than we ever imagined. In my opinion Clément Vidal has called our attention to an interesting phenomenon that our current theories cannot describe fully. I strongly suggest reading his Ph.D. thesis discussing the possibility of starivores (Chapter 9 -- PDF here). And if you are a researcher interested in putting his speculation to the test, the Evo Devo Universe community has just announced the creation of the High Energy Astrobiology Prize. The community is interested in receiving a research study that can either positively or negatively test the starivore hypothesis.

      I'm interested to see what we discover!And if you want to connect with me: @cadelllast | | | G+

    2. It's not a big mystery. Civilizations have their time and disappear forever like everything else in this universe, from mayflies to empires. There might have been twenty civilizations like ours already in the galaxy, there might be twenty more, just not two at the same time. And each one will scratch their head and wonder why they are alone.

  14. From an Iranian perspective ...

    D. Isfahanian

    Among many foreign invasions to which Persia has been subject­ed in her long history, three more than others have influenced the culture and civilisation of the people of this country.
    These three invasions were those of Alexander, the Arabs, and the Mongols.

    The Mongol invasion is considered the most destructive of all the invasions by the people of Central Asia.
    The invasion was motivated by three factors :
    first, material benefit ; second, acquisition of new pastural and agricultural land ; third, revenge.

    This being the case, the invasion should not have really affected the Iranian society and its culture, for any human action which is based on force, material benefit and temporary success is usually superficial and of short duration.

    It is only when man’s action is based on his philosophical convictions that the overall effect of his acts leaves a lasting impress.

    Despite this fact, the Mongol conquest of Iran left such an effect on the totality of the Iranian society, ....
    .. its economy and culture that today even after seven centuries we can still witness the influence of the Mongol invasion in the country.

    The original home of the Mongols was the Gobi desert, where Changiz Khan succeeded to unite its various Mongol tribes ...
    .. and to invade China proper at the beginning of the thirteenth century.

    We know that about this time there existed diplomatic relation-ship between the Khwārazm Shahs and the Mongol emperor, Changiz Khan and that the latter wished such relationship to continue.
    The Utrar incident, of 1216, however, precipitated the Mongol invasion of the Islamic world.

    The effect of the massacre of the inhabitants of the cities of Iran, the destruction of an urban civilisation, and an advanced rural economy adopted by the invaders were so strong that it took Iran many centuries to recover from this historical calamity.

    The agricultural economy was replaced by stock-raising which was one of the characteristics of nomadic life.
    Tribal life became once again the way of life and as a result the central authority collapsed everywhere in the country, ...
    In addition to a new ruler the farmers found a new enemy, that is to say, a number of tribes which later gave support to the ...
    Safavids, the Afsharids, Zends and the Qajars.

    Another social effect of the Mongol invasion of Iran was with­drawal of the people from worldly affairs and their attraction to the mystical movement.

    This was naturally the product of a general sense of insecurity that prevailed throughout the country.
    Similar condition is witnessed in Iran after the Afghan invasion of the country.

    The poets and writers whose works bore gnostic and mystic colour were specially affected by the Mongol invasion.
    Linguistically, the Mongol invasion brought a series of Mongol and Turkic vocabulary into the Persian language through bureaucrats’ official correspondence, royal decrees and direct contacts between Mongols and native Persians.

    Although more negative points can be mentioned in reviewing the Mongol invasion of Iran, there are several positive points:
    the invasion contributed to the economy and politics of the country, the termination of the Abbasid Caliphate by Hulagu and ...
    of the moral and religious domination of the Arabs in the Persian society.

  15. A UN report accuses the United States of downplaying the number of civilians killed in anti-terrorist drone operations, while failing to assist in the investigation by releasing its own figures.

    With the increased use of remotely piloted aircraft in military operations in a number of countries, the nagging question of civilian “collateral damage” as a consequence of these deadly technologies is a growing concern for the United Nations and human right groups.

    In Afghanistan, for example, the number of aerial drone strikes surged from 294 in 2011 to 447 during the first 11 months of 2012, according to data released by the US Air Force in November 2012, UN Special Rapporteur Ben Emmerson noted in his interim report.

    Pakistan officials confirmed that out of 2,200 deaths “at least 400 civilians had been killed as a result of remotely piloted aircraft strikes and a further 200 individuals were regarded as probable non-combatants.”

    Although the first missile test-fired from a drone occurred in February 2001, it wasn’t until the end of 2012 that the UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) released data showing that 16 civilians had been killed and 5 injured due to drone strikes during the course of the year.

    In its latest published figures, covering the first six months of 2013, UNAMA documented 15 civilian deaths and 7 injuries in seven separate attacks by drone aircraft.

    Emmerson’s 24-page document, which is due to be presented to the UN General Assembly next Friday, mentions a report by a US military advisor that contradicted official US claims that drone attacks were responsible for fewer civilian deaths compared with other aerial platforms, for example, fighter jets

    1. Individual citizens suffered many hardships. While the total supply of goods in NVN increased, individual standards of living declined.
      Food was rationed and consumer goods were scarce; and air raid warnings disrupted the lives of the populace and forced many to leave their homes.
      Moreover, it has been estimated that approximately 52,000 civilians were killed in NVN by US air strikes

      12 years of drone strikes, average of 25 civilian deaths each year.
      300 or so civilians killed, in 12 years of air strikes, compared to 52,000 killed in North Vietnam.

      Now, as to the effectiveness of the drone strikes in "decapitating" the enemy ...
      It is hard to tell, from here.

      But the numbers of civilians killed, is remarkably low, by comparison to past US air strike experiences.
      If the US is going to fight a war, it could not do so with much less impact on the civilian population than the drone campaign delivers.

    2. JCS/MACV and OSD/CIA agree that we destroy 12% to 14% of the trucks observed moving through Laos and 20% to 35% of the total flow of supplies in Laos.

      To MACV/JCS, the material destroyed cannot be replaced so that our air effort denies it to the VC/NVA forces in South Vietnam.

      In complete disagreement, OSD and CIA find that the enemy needs in SVN (10 to 15 trucks of supplies per day) are so small and his supply of war material so large that the enemy can replace his losses easily, increase his traffic flows slightly, and get through as much supplies to SVN as he wants to in spite of the bombing

      52,000 civilians killed, compared to 300 or so.

      In either case the resupply and logistics flows were not stopped.
      The only tactical question ...

      How effective are the drone strikes in taking down the enemy command structure?

      The strategic issue, whether the US should even continue the campaign against Islamic radicals in Afpakistan ...
      On any level, one that could certainly be discussed.

    3. Even if we take the Pakistani number of 400, which could inflated, and inflate it to 800 for the entire region ...

      It is no where near 52,000.
      It looks like about ....
      1.5% of the civilian casualties.

    4. in Iraq, from 2003 thru 2009 an outfit called "Iraq Body Count" has documented civilian deaths in that conflict.
      It informs us that there were ...
      5,732 civilians killed by airstrikes (including cannon-fire, bombs and missiles)

      So, again, it seems that the toll upon the civilian populations, from "Death From Above" is trending downward.

      The Drone Program is the least invasive piece of power projection in the US Air Force arsenal.

  16. In the early 1220's, Armenia was subjected to a number of Turco-Mongol invasions.

    These invasions, all related to one another (though hardly coordinated) were made from different geographical directions.
    Varying in scope, participants, and intent, all of them contributed to the destruction of the military capabilities of the Armeno-Georgian armies.

    Taken individually, the consequences of each invasion might have been overcome.
    But the invasions were, in a sense, a chain reaction.

    One followed the next within the space of a few years.
    This quick succession of attacks more than anything else explains how the mighty Armeno-Georgian forces, ...
    ... so recently on the aggressive offensive against hostile and far-flung powers, ...
    were so quickly humiliated, destroyed or neutralized before the onslaught of the Mongol conquerors in subsequent decades.

    Chronologically, the first incursion was made in 1220/21 by a detachrnent of some 20,000 Mongols who had been sent across Central Asia ...
    by Chingiz-Khan in pursuit of the Shah of Khwarazm.
    The latter succeeded in evading his pursuers and had, in fact, died in obscurity on an island in the Caspian Sea the same time the Mongols were entering the Caucasus.

    The Mongols' route into Armenia was from the southeast, from western Naxijewan north to the Aghstev region.
    ... the Mongols' first battle(s) with Caucasian forces, the outcome was that some 10,000 Armenians and Georgians, commanded by king Georgi IV Lasha of Georgia and his atabek Iwane Zak'arean were defeated in the Kotman area of northeastern Armenia.

    Through espionage the Mongols learned of an alliance forming against themselves to include besides Armenians and Georgians, ...
    ... those forces still loyal to the rulers of Xlat' and Azarbaijan.

    Consequently, without delay the Mongols invaded Georgia in January, 1221 taking along an Azarbaijani defector plus his troops of Turkmens and Kurds whom they obliged to fight in the vanguard—a typical Mongol battle tactic.

    Northern Armenia and southeastern Georgia were looted, and then the invaders returned to their base in Utik' .
    In spring of the same year they moved south toward Tabriz, plundering and destroying the cities of...
    ... Maragheh, Hamadan, Naxijewan, Ardabil, and later Utik's largest city, Baylakan,...

    .. carrying off large herds of horses, mules, donkeys, oxen and sheep.

    Despite its success, this army had not been sent for conquest but to pursue the Khwarazm Shah and to conduct reconnaissance for future operations.
    Thus, considering their mission accomplished, the Mongols departed via the Caucasus mountains to the north,...
    ... destroying the city of Shamk'or enroute.

    Seen in retrospect, this Mongol campaign, conducted by a relatively small army of 20,000 was nothing short of astounding, accomplishing the defeat of 20 peoples and a complete circuit of the Caspian in less than two years.

  17. George Galloway, Superstar to some here '

    October 19, 2013
    The Blue and White Badge of Courage
    By Michael Curtis

    Galloway, however, has been more concerned with supporting opponents of Israel than with details of sex in Sweden. In a rally in London in 2005 at a time when Israel was responding to attacks from Lebanon, he declared, "I am here to glorify the Lebanese resistance, Hizb'allah. I am here to glorify the leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrullah." He states that Hizb'allah has never been a terrorist organization. Galloway did however support the invasion into Lebanon by Syria whose troops were there "to maintain stability and protect the country from Israel." Contrary to all evidence which shows that Syria was responsible for the crime, Galloway accused Israel of the assassination in Beirut on February 14, 2005 of Rafiq Al-Hariri, the former Lebanese prime minister.

    It is the State of Israel that has been the main target of his bombastic utterances. Galloway has claimed he is not anti-Semitic, declaring on November 27, 2012 "We do not hate Jews." Whether true or not he continued, "We hate Zionism, we hate Israel, we hate murder and injustice." Galloway is not renowned for his knowledge of Jewish law, but he was certain that "Israel blasphemes against the Torah by calling itself a Jewish state." Zionism was a "blasphemy against Judaism and God."

    Galloway's usual manner of speaking is to express himself strongly, often in hectoring fashion. His message about Israel is clear: "no recognition, no normalization. Just boycott, divestment and sanctions, until the apartheid state is defeated. I never debate with Israelis nor speak to their media. If they want to speak about Palestine -- the address is the PLO."

    It is pathetic that a British politician, a member of the House of Commons for so many years should not only show such unremitting hatred for the State of Israel but even refuse to discuss complex issues in a rational manner. The young man Jonathan Hunter must be admired as a modern-day profile in courage. One can only hope that others will follow his example and confront in similar fashion and skill the ignorant bigotry expressed by haters of Israel.

    Michael Curtis is author of Jews, Antisemitism, and the Middle East.

    Read more:

    Galloway's fulminations against Western policies as well as Israel, and his friendly remarks about Arab dictators, have gone on for some years. In 1994 he visited Iraq twice, meeting with Tariq Aziz, deputy prime minister, and spoke kindly to Saddam Hussein with the words "I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability, and I want you to know that we are with you." In similar fashion in 2005, Galloway was "very impressed by Bashar al-Assad's knowledge, his sharpness, his flexible mind... Syria is lucky to have him as her president." In contrast in April 2013, he has called Ed Miliband, the leader of the Labour Party, who happens to be Jewish, "an unprincipled coward with the backbone of an amoeba."

    More recently, in August 2013, he denied that the Assad regime had used chemical weapons against its population. Rather, his "theory" was that Israel had supplied al-Qaeda with chemical weapons to use against Assad. Even in fantasy land, or anywhere in the realm of the possible, it is difficult to believe in his "theory" of the existence of an alliance between the State of Israel and al-Qaeda.

    1. Examples of courage, the willingness to stand up and speak or act against maliciousness bigotry and venomous prejudice, are all too rare in contemporary society. It was therefore heartening and gratifying to see a dramatic exhibition of it shown on October 14, 2013, during a debate at the Oxford [University] Union, on the part of a young student who confronted George Galloway, the controversial and abrasive Member of Parliament well known for his relentless tirades against Israel. After Galloway had ended an hour-long speech in the debate at the Union, the student, a second-year undergraduate at Brasenose College named Jonathan Hunter, speaking first in Hebrew and then in English, took the floor during the question and answer session, and reprimanded Galloway for his previous behavior during another debate at Oxford.

      Hunter's courage is even more remarkable in that Galloway, who has been a member of the House of Commons for most years since 1987, is a formidable debater, using combative, blustering, and colorful rhetoric. His verbal skills were recognized by the Spectator magazine in London in 2002 when it identified him as the debater of the year.

      The context of Hunter's remarks was related to a debate earlier this year on February 20, 2013 at Christ Church College, Oxford, where Galloway was due to speak in favor of the motion, "Israel should withdraw immediately from the West Bank." However, after learning that his opponent who had begun to speak in the debate was a third-year student, Eylon Aslan-Levy, who has joint British and Israeli citizenship Galloway disgraced himself by storming out of the hall declaring, "I don't recognize Israel and I don't debate with Israelis. I've been misled, sorry." At the start of the October debate, Galloway, compounding his earlier boorish behavior, asked if Aslan-Levy was in the room, referring to him as "a hapless young fellow."

      Hunter with great courage and with passion rebuked Galloway saying, "I think you did a lot of harm by not speaking to my friend Eylon, and not having a constructive dialogue with him." Hunter then unfurled the blue and white Israeli flag he had kept under his sweater, and ironically turning Galloway's own words against him said he did not have a question for him because "I do not debate with racists." Galloway in an earlier answer to a question whether he considered himself a racist replied that it was the "racist ideology" of Zionism that should be labeled in this way.

      Read more:

    2. Galloway, however, has been more concerned with supporting opponents of Israel than with details of sex in Sweden

      Israel stuff is boring. Go back to the sex in Sweden part.

  18. October 19, 2013
    Dangerous Times: Is Rouhani Rolling Obama?
    By James Lewis

    Of course he is rolling Obama -

    Iran's nearest neighbors would welcome a fast decapitation strike, because nobody wants to live with a nuclear Jim Jones cult next door.
    Obama makes empty threats, but Netanyahu does not. Obama let the clock run on out Iranian nukes, and somebody has to stop them, because "charm offensives" won't do it. Bibi is the designated hitter now, because everybody else is hunkering low in their foxholes.

    As the ancient saying goes, "when you go to kill the king, do not miss."

    Read more:


  19. Industry source tells NRO: WH may have to consider “unthinkable options” if website meltdown continues into November

    If the problems now plaguing the system are not resolved by mid-November and the flow of enrollments at that point looks like it does now, the prospects for the first year of the exchanges will be in very grave jeopardy. Some large advertising and outreach campaigns are also geared to that crucial six-week period around Thanksgiving and Christmas, so if the sites are not functional, all of that might not happen—or else might be wasted. If that’s what the late fall looks like, the administration might need to consider what one of the people I spoke with described as “unthinkable options” regarding the first year of the exchanges…

    One key worry is based on the fact that what they’re facing is not a situation where it is impossible to buy coverage but one where it is possible but very difficult to buy coverage. That’s much worse from their point of view, because it means that only highly motivated consumers are getting coverage. People who are highly motivated to get coverage in a community-rated insurance system are very likely to be in bad health. The healthy young man who sees an ad for his state exchange during a baseball game and loads up the site to get coverage—the dream consumer so essential to the design of the exchange system—will not keep trying 25 times over a week if the site is not working. The person with high health costs and no insurance will. The exchange system is designed to enable that sick person to get coverage, of course, but it can only do that if the healthy person does too. The insurers don’t yet have a clear overall sense of the risk profile of the people who are signing up, but the circumstantial evidence they have is very distressing to them. The danger of a rapid adverse selection spiral is much more serious than they believed possible this summer. They would love it if the administration could shut down the exchange system, at least the federal one, until the interface problems can be addressed. But they know this is impossible.

    Sick people with preexisting conditions whose coverage will be very expensive for insurers will spend all day on the site trying to sign up. Young, healthy people, whose money insurers desperately need to help pay for that very expensive coverage for sick people, might try once or twice and then give up. Result: A giant bill for insurance companies with no way to pay it except by jacking up premiums on everyone who currently has insurance, and even that might not be enough. That’s the death spiral, and that’s why “unthinkable” options are suddenly, but inevitably, on the table.

  20. (It's a thankless job, doin' the L_RD's work. Somebody's got to do it though.)

    Why did we conduct the Iraq war?
    A verse,
    From a book.

    Rev 9:14

    Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

    Assuming the angels are released. Damascus would certainly be on their list.
    Ooo, all the old haunts too.

    1. That's from Bush's playbook.

    2. More from the Sixth Angel

      Rev 16:12

      And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

      The Persian Kings perhaps?

  21. How do you track an angel?
    Cross referencing is an aid.

    Jer 51:63

    And it shall be, when thou hast made an end of reading this book, that thou shalt bind a stone to it, and cast it into the midst of Euphrates

    A stone?
    What is the significance of this action?

    WIO, any thoughts?

    1. thou shalt bind
      This was the emblem of its overthrow and irretrievable ruin; and the same emblem is employed in Rev 18:21, to denote the utter ruin of mystical Babylon. Jer 19:10,11; Rev 18:21

    2. And what was mystical Babylon?

      Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

      Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

      Jerusalem was overthrown in 70 CE by Vespasian and Son. Mission accomplished. Thanks for playing Bible Study with Teresita.

    3. Mission accomplished.

      Good News!
      I'll go and tell the pope he's just wasting everyone's time and the church tithe money.
      Someone on the internet opened up my eyes.

  22. Get your burial plots in Topheth now, folks, while they last. First come, first served. Price reductions apply on purchase of five or more plots. Jews - 50% off. E-Z Payment Plan.

    Call PlotsRUs


    Ask for Quirk - he will undertake to please.

    Or snail mail at:

    Quirk's Undertaking & Bicycle Repair
    Box 1000001
    Detroit, MIchigan

    Member: Detroit Better Business Bureau

  23. There are two sane ways to read such prophecies.

    1) As attempting to apply to that time
    2) As attempting to apply psychologically, i.e. spiritually

    There is one nutter way to read such prophecies

    1) As applying to today

    #2 is the best way for those alive and reading them today

    1. There is one absolutely wrong way to read such prophecies:

      1) As predicting the future.

      Ezekiel, for example, predicted that Tyre would be sacked and never rise again. Okay, it was sacked by Alexander, what city wasn't sacked back then? But the second part would come as some surprise to the chamber of commerce of Sidon, Lebanon.

    2. Sweet!
      It's all wrapped then?

      Post Revelation never looked so good.
      Yes, that was sarcasm.