“Soft despotism is a term coined by Alexis de Tocqueville describing the state into which a country overrun by "a network of small complicated rules" might degrade. Soft despotism is different from despotism (also called 'hard despotism') in the sense that it is not obvious to the people."

Saturday, October 05, 2013

Most Big City Police Forces Are Prohibited From Shooting At Moving Vehicles - What About Federal Cops?

Use of force in Capitol Hill shooting debated
Federal agents trying to stop the black Infiniti speeding between the White House and the U.S. Capitol fired seven shots at an unarmed driver with a toddler in the car as it rushed away from them, an uncommon tactic that occurred during a highly unusual chase.
A total of at least 17 shots were fired at two locations Thursday afternoon by two law enforcement agencies — the U.S. Capitol Police and the U.S. Secret Service. The final shots, near the Hart Senate Office Building, killed 34-year-old Miriam Carey of Connecticut, who police said had tried to ram through a security barrier at the White House, knocked over a uniformed Secret Service agent, hit cruisers and breached the outer security perimeter of the Capitol grounds.
The vast majority of big-city police agencies — including in the District — prohibit or strictly limit their officers from shooting at moving vehicles. But it’s unclear whether the Capitol Police or Secret Service violated their policies during the chase or the shootings.
Brian Leary, a Secret Service spokesman, declined to provide a copy of his agency’s use-of-force or chase policies. Lt. Kimberly Schneider, a spokeswoman for the Capitol Police, did the same.
Leary and Schneider declined to comment on the incident at all, including whether their officers knew that Carey’s 1-year-old daughter was in the car when they fired into it, killing Carey. The toddler was unharmed and is in protective custody as authorities work with Carey’s family to properly place the girl.
The shooting is being investigated by the D.C. police department’s Internal Affairs Division. The Secret Service and Capitol Police will determine whether officers followed their departments’ use-of-force policies. The U.S. attorney’s office will decide whether the agents broke any laws, a D.C. police spokeswoman said.
Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier said investigators still do not know which agency’s officers fired at each location. Shots were fired at Garfield Circle, with the car moving, and again at the final spot, a guard shack on Maryland Avenue NE, with the car stopped.
Video from bystanders and media captured several important pieces of the afternoon chase, including the shots fired by police near Garfield Circle. But no pictures have emerged of the final confrontation.
Officials have not disclosed how or why agents opened fire after Carey crashed to a halt near the security booth.
But several experts said the shooting was justified, given the intensity and uncertainty of the chase and the fact that Carey tried to breach security at two potential and high-profile terrorist targets — the White House and the Capitol. Other experts questioned whether lethal force was needed.
Terrance Gainer, the U.S. Senate’s sergeant at arms who also has served as the chief of the Capitol Police and executive assistant chief of the D.C. police, noted the incident’s unusual circumstances. Particularly relevant, he said, was that Carey’s actions constituted a threat to the government. He also cited concerns about terrorism.
“In general, you would not shoot at a vehicle unless it poses the types of threats that would lead you to believe that there was an imminent danger of death and bodily harm,” he said. “But the thing that’s distinctive about this is it was not your typical traffic violation.”
Gainer described the erratic behavior and said Carey “refused at gunpoint to surrender. She posed a threat to people and a threat to the Capitol facilities as well as the White House.” He added, “We operate in an environment under the constant threat of attack from suicide bombers and improvised explosive devices. . . . Whenever there are bullets flying, there are risks. I think these officers minimized the risks to others.”
Police typically are allowed to use deadly force in cases of imminent danger to themselves or others. In the District, police are not allowed to fire warning shots or to shoot into a crowd or solely to protect property.
Officers in the District also are prohibited from shooting “at or from a moving vehicle unless deadly force is being used against the officer or another person.” The guidelines, implemented after 1998, further state that “a moving vehicle is not considered deadly force. Members shall, as a rule, avoid tactics that could place them in a position where a vehicle could be used against them.”
Police in New York have had a similar policy since 1972, and the Police Executive Research Forum, which advises police agencies on standards, has long recommended bans on shooting at moving cars. It is generally considered dangerous and ineffective, and it could put police in jeopardy.
But Chuck Wexler, the research forum’s executive director, cautioned that there are exceptions and that each case is unique. “I think that it’s very important to think, what did the officers know at that point in time versus what we know today.” He was referring to the toddler being in the car and reports of the woman’s diminished mental state, which could factor in motive.
“This was clearly an out-of-control situation,” said Wexler, who did not know the shooting guidelines of the Capitol Police or the Secret Service. The latter’s guidelines may be shrouded in secrecy because it deals with security at the White House and for the president.
William J. Bratton, a private security consultant who used to run the New York, Los Angeles and Boston police departments, cautioned against relying on the video to form opinions. He said the snippets shown on the news and the Internet omit the full context and do not show whether the driver disobeyed commands.
“The first story is never the final story,” Bratton said. “The first story yesterday was that she was shooting at police, and that clearly was not the case.” He said that Washington poses “a different set of challenges than most police agencies. It’s truly an exceptional city with exceptional security circumstances. That has to be taken into account.”
Still, it proved unnerving for those who saw the chase and gunfire along public thoroughfares and parks, just two weeks after the mass shooting at the Washington Navy Yard. Tourists holding maps dived for cover and then trained cameras on the bevy of police that descended on the Capitol, many wearing riot helmets and vests and toting assault rifles.
Such sights have become more common after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks that ushered in a new era of security alerts, checkpoints, barricades and threats of terror. Those scenes belie the fact that municipal officers across the country are shooting fewer and fewer people.
In 1971, New York police officers armed with revolvers fired 2,113 bullets, hitting 221 people and killing 93 of them, according to the department. In 2011, 124 officers armed with semiautomatic handguns fired 416 rounds, hitting 19 people and killing nine. D.C. officers shot 32 people in 1998, killing 12. They shot nine people last year, four of them fatally.
Joseph Pollini, a professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York and a retired New York police commander, questioned agents shooting at the vehicles and said he had concerns about the final, fatal shots. He said officers, under most circumstances, would take cover after the car came to a stop and order the woman out.
“If she wasn’t using any physical force, I don’t know why they opened fire on her,” Pollini said. “Just because she didn’t get out of the car if they told her to get out of the car is not sufficient to use deadly force.” But he also said it is not known whether the officers issued commands and what precisely prompted them to shoot that final time.
Sheldon Greenberg, a professor at the Johns Hopkins University police executive leadership program, said that Secret Service agents “are protecting the core fiber of the nation. This isn’t just dealing with a criminal on a highway. If something happens to the White House or if the Capitol becomes vulnerable, the world goes off its axis.”
He said that “regardless of her circumstances, and what we know after the fact about her mental state and situation, the officers can only deal with what’s going on at the moment.”

Clarence Williams, Carol D. Leonnig and Paul Kane contributed to this report.


  1. Ever watch the show “COPS”? People flee in cars all the time. It happens everywhere.

    It does not surprise me that with the mentality of every government agency having not only their own police force but SWAT teams as well, that something like this could happen.

    Heard from Eric Holder or Obama yet?

  2. "Where the suspect poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from the failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so."

  3. She put the baby in harms way.
    Enough said.

    1. When did child endangerment become a capital offense?

    2. Apparently there was more to it than just child endangerment.
      There were multiple offenses that culminated in the use of deadly force.
      If you can't do the time, than quit fucking around with people that are authorized to use deadly force.

    3. What were the multiple offenses?
      Were any of the alleged offenses capital crimes?

      Was the car stopped?
      If it was it was no longer a weapon.

    4. Should reckless driving be a capital offense?

    5. Or was she just guilty of Driving While Black?

    6. She was putting the child in danger multiple times, just in that video.
      Not to mention the general public.
      But you're right. None of the offenses, alone, would merit a "good shoot", IMO.

    7. She was black?
      I couldn't tell by the video.

  4. A team of Navy SEALs raided an al-Shabab militant group in Somalia in a daring predawn attack, The New York Times and NBC News reported Saturday.

    The raid was in response to an al-Shabab attack on a Nairobi shopping mall two weeks ago. Al-Shabab, a militant Islamist group, has claimed responsibility for the action, which killed at least 67 people.

    Sources told NBC News and The Guardian newspaper in the U.K. that the raid was in pursuit of a "high-value target," but neither news outlet named the targeted person nor said whether the subject had been caught.

    It is believed that the target was killed in the firefight, the Times reported a senior American official saying. However that was not confirmed before the SEALs were forced to withdraw, the official also told the paper.

    The Guardian reported that a Somali official said the target was a "high-profile foreign leader in al-Shabab," possibly a Chechen.

    Pentagon spokesman George Little declined to comment on the raid when reached by the Guardian.

    The Times reported that the SEALs raided a seaside villa where al-Shabab members were staying, in the Somali town of Baraawe. The firefight lasted more than an hour. Somali officials told the newspaper that the government had been informed of the raid.

  5. Federal cops could have killed the baby. They killed a young mother with emotional problems. IMO it is piss poor police work.

    1. It may be as you say.
      But the fact is she was driving without regard to safety.

  6. "Unarmed" my backside.
    The vehicle she was driving, with the baby inside, was her weapon of choice.

    1. Maybe we should ban cars on the mall as a result of this woman driving an assault vehicle./sarc

    2. Why not just ban pedestrians from the Mall?

      Put the tourists on oepn air buses, just like at Universal Studios
      Then the Mall would remain safe and secure for all time.
      Whats a little inconvenience when security is at stake?

    3. It's the People's House.
      We have to let them get close enough to chain themselves to the fence.

      It's for the photo op.

  7. DC law enforcers need a psychic on the payroll.

  8. Results from a Las Vegas, NV study of Officer Involved Shootings

    Based on their criminal backgrounds and behaviors, OIS subjects were potentially more threatening in 2011 than 2010
    • 12 of 18 (67%) 2011 subjects had prior violent criminal convictions
    • 8 of 25 (32%) 2010 subjects had prior violent criminal convictions

    Overall, OIS subjects were less mentally stable in 2011 compared to 2010.

    • 6 of 18 (33%) 2011 subjects were suicidal or appeared to exhibit suicidal tendencies
    • 4 of 25 (16%) 2010 subjects were suicidal or appeared to exhibit suicidal tendencies
    A greater number of encounters with mentally unstable subjects may be a contributing factor for the high lethality level associated with 2011 OISs. In addition, this data places greater importance on LVMPD’s training and response protocols for addressing people in mental crisis.

    OIS subjects were more likely to carry firearms and use them against the police in 2011 compared with 2010. The aggressive, life-threatening behavior OIS subjects exhibited when confronted by the police may be a contributing factor for the high lethality level experienced in 2011
    • 12 of 18 (67%) subjects possessed firearms in 2011
    • 14 of 25 (56%) subjects possessed firearms in 2010
    • 5 of 18 (28%) subjects instigated an OIS in 2011 by shooting at the police
    • 4 of 25 (16%) subjects instigated an OIS in 2010 by shooting at the police

    Conversely, the share of unarmed OIS subjects decreased from 24 percent in 2010 (6 of 25) to 17 Percent in 2011 (3 of 18).
    With this said, the shooting of any unarmed subject is cause for the most discerning examination of decision making, tactics, training, and policy in a particular review.

    Pasted from

  9. (Reuters) - U.S. forces launched raids in Libya and Somalia on Saturday following the deadly attack on a Nairobi shopping mall last month, capturing a top al Qaeda figure wanted for the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, a U.S. official said.

    Senior al Qaeda figure Anas al Liby was seized in the raid in Libya,

  10. You see folks, it's great being a Vandal. Every game you learn something new. Today it was: the second half 50 point rule.

    If a team is behind by 50 or more points in the second half, the clock is not stopped at the usual intervals.

    This is a Gift and a Grace by the NCAA Rules Committee to us all.

    Stop the pain. End the misery.


    Fresno State 61
    Idaho 14

    50 point rule in force much of second half

    Announcer: "Total dominance"

    Next up: Arkansas State


    1. After that we go to Ol' Miss to whup Ruf's ass.

  11. The fella captured in Libya was on the run, loose for the entirety of the Bush tenure in office.

    Obama nails him, dead to rights!

    Another feather in Obama's War on Terror headdress!

    Then the raid in Somalia, another terrorist down for the long count in the ground, no US casualties, no Blackhawk Down!

    Man, that Obama, he's just rollin' up those terrorists.

    Osama is dead and more terrorists are headed his way!

  12. ...buried so deep in the last thread I feared it might be lost to posterity... :-)

    DeuceSat Oct 05, 04:06:00 PM EDT
    Jews make strange bedfellows


    allenSat Oct 05, 07:49:00 PM EDT


    By the way, I have a hard time taking any man seriously who has to use a curling iron.


    allenSat Oct 05, 08:12:00 PM EDT

    ...same old story...Here is one response.

    “…it is already three years that I am calling upon you, Polish Jewry, who are the crown of world Jewry.
    I continue to warn you incessantly that a catastrophe is coming closer.
    I became grey and old in these years.
    My heart bleeds, that you, dear brothers and sisters, do not see the volcano which will soon begin to spit its all-consuming lava.
    I see that you are not seeing this because you are immersed and sunk in your daily worries.
    Today, however, I demand from you trust. You were convinced already that my prognoses have already proven to be right. If you think differently, then drive me out of your midst! However, if you do believe me, then listen to me in this 12th hour:
    In the name of God! Let anyone of you save himself as long as there is still time. And time there is very little…and what else I would like to say to you in this day of Tisha B’Av:
    whoever of you will escape from the catastrophe, he or she will live to see the exalted moment of a great Jewish wedding: the rebirth and the rise of a Jewish state. I don’t know if I will be privileged to see it; my son will! I believe in this as I am sure that tomorrow morning the sun will rise.”

    He was right. They were wrong. They were, then, dead. Israel lives.


    allenSat Oct 05, 08:51:00 PM EDT

    Two days ago an EU committee filed a report calling for the banning of circumcision. Let's see how warm and fuzzy "your" typical European Jew feels about that. :-)

    1. Have they filed a report calling for banning citoridectomy yet?

    2. Re: "citoridectomy"

      Heaven forfend! Are you insinuating cultural chauvinism by the EU into the sacred tenets of sharia!? Succinctly, the EU has created a nearly indecipherable set of regulations (each country framing its own statutes). Nine countries claim to outlaw FGM; however, since 1988 only France and Italy have brought legal actions - 31 and 1, respectively.

      ...from WHO...

      Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or cause injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons.

      The procedure has no health benefits for girls and women.

      Procedures can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later cysts, infections, infertility as well as complications in childbirth increased risk of newborn deaths.

      About 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.

  13. All the bikers that harassed and then beat up that SUV driver are liable.

    SUV driver is innocent.

    He was simply fleeing, trying to get away from what he, and anyone else, would perceive as danger.

    1. Most of the bikers had flip up license plates that can be hidden by flipping a switch. And full facial helmets.

      Perhaps no more than five bikers should be allowed to ride together in a group on our highways?


      How real Bikers roll

    3. There were policemen, at leas one, amongst the bikers

    4. The threat to the driver must not have been extreme, the cops did not "break cover' to stop any action that he considered "life threatening".
      The driver of the SUV, just frightened not threatened.

      The police were there, as it was happening.

      There seems to be a lot of that, where people are frightened, but not really threatened.

    5. New York Post
      An off-duty undercover NYPD cop was among the pack of bikers who chased a family up the West Side Highway - and he stood by as the dad was hauled from his car and beaten, sources told The Post.

    6. Several cops may have watched biker beatdown

    7. The unidentified officer waited three days to come forward Wednesday night. He has been placed on modified duty and turned in his gun and badge on Friday, the sources said.

      He rides with the New Rochelle-based Front Line Soldiers, a club that also counts several other cops among its members, a source said.

      Internal Affairs is investigating whether those cops, too, were among the bikers — and whether they also witnessed the assault that left Internet exec Alexian Lien bleeding on the pavement as his wife and toddler cowered in their black Range Rover.

      “It does not appear that he got involved at the scene,” one law-enforcement source said of the undercover, who has hired a lawyer. “He didn’t want to blow his cover,” said the source — though the cop was not investigating the group of bikers.

    8. Look at that, up above....

      Anonymous first instinct ....
      Violate the liberties guaranteed in the Constitution.
      Put a limiationt on YOUR 1st Amendment Rights

      Limit every ones freedom and the liberty to peaceable assemble, because HE is afraid..

      Fucking Fascist

    9. Actually, SHITFULL, my opinion there came from Judge Jeanine Pierro. Had just listened to her and a defense attorney discussing the situation on Fox News. Both agreed that the SUV driver is not liable. Both agreed the bikers are liable.

      The SUV driver was totally surrounded by bikers, in a threatening manner. He/she had every reason to be afraid.

      If you want to call Judge Pierro a "Fucking Fascist", go ahead, have at it.

      You are a moron.

      By the way, I see zero evidence that the Feds are coming down on Zimmerman, as you assured the world they would do.

  14. My wife suggests an improved Second Half 50 point rule.

    If you get behind by 50 points in the Second Half - game over.

    Seems a little hard on the bench sitters though. It's that kind of game is their big chance to get some playing time.

    This needs more thought.

  15. Another Bush era BOONDOGGLE costing US plenty.

    WASHINGTON – Plans for a new facility that will handle, dismantle and secure nuclear material are in a major meltdown.

    The price tag attached to the country’s largest uranium processing facility under the direction of the Department of Energy has climbed to more than 19 times its original estimate. What’s worse is that much of the Tennessee complex, according to the government’s own calculations, isn’t needed and the rest will most likely be outdated when the facility becomes fully operational -- two decades from now.

    The project was first estimated to cost around $600 million, but that has since climbed to as high as $11.6 billion – and is likely to go even higher, Lydia Dennett, a research associate at the Project on Government Oversight, told

    “The cost has jumped dramatically, but there’s also been a huge delay in the operational date,” Dennett said.

    Originally, the facility was supposed to be up and running by 2018, but that’s been pushed back to 2038.

    POGO, a non-partisan watchdog group, blames poor project management and a design flaw for the serious cost overruns the National Nuclear Security Administration is now facing on this project. Among the problems, the team has to redesign the roof because its original height would have been too low to fit containers and equipment. Project managers also have to rebuild the walls to make them thicker.

    According to the POGO report, “early estimates, which showed the need for a higher cost range, were apparently disregarded to gain approval to proceed with the project.”

    Under the original 2005 proposal,
    the manufacturing plant at the nuclear weapons compound at the Y-12 National Security Complex in Oakridge, Tenn., would make uranium cores for the country’s stockpile of hydrogen bombs.
    New America Foundation’s William Hartung says the current price tag of the facility – already billions of dollars over-budget – could soar even higher.

    “Costs of the NNSA’s modernization plan are hard to predict because of the agency’s consistent record of large cost overruns on major projects,” Hartung said. “According to a recent assessment by the Government Accountability Office, six NNSA projects initiated during the past decade had cumulative cost overruns of $5.6 billion.”

    1. Surely, they jest. Bush is an honorable man.

    2. I don't know if this boondoggle had a lot to do with the moral character of GW Bush.
      But the waste and possible fraudulent project did start on his watch.

      Makes the Solyndra story seem minor by comparison.
      Bet this does not get nearly the air time on FOX News as Solyndra, while it is a much bigger story.

      Whole thing should be shutdown, but then again there are powerful forces afoot in Washington that protect this type of waste and abuse of both taxed and borrowed funds.

    3. There's something about Nuclear Power that causes men to go stupid.

      The San Onofre station has had technical problems over the years. In the July 12, 1982 edition of Time states, "The firm Bechtel was ... embarrassed in 1977, when it installed a 420-ton nuclear-reactor vessel backwards" at San Onofre.[14] In 2008, the San Onofre plant received multiple citations over issues such as failed emergency generators, improperly wired batteries and falsified fire safety data . . . . . . . .

    4. Bechtel install a Nuclear Reactor backwards.

      let that one waller around in your brain-pan for awhile.


  16. October 05, 2013
    WASHINGTON — Police in the U.S. capital say a man who set himself on fire Friday on the National Mall has died of his injuries.

    A Washington police spokesman Araz Alali said the man died Friday night at a local hospital, just hours after witnesses say he doused himself with gasoline and set himself ablaze.

    It was not immediately known who the man was or what his motive might have been.

    The incident occurred in the heart of Washington, just a few blocks from the U.S. Capitol, not far from where police shot and killed a woman Thursday after a high speed car chase


  18. The cops know that they have screwed up their operation and that is why they are tight lipped. Today the Senate Sergeant At Arms and Doorkeeper is handing out “Thank You Capitol Police” buttons outside of the Dirksen Senate Office Building, after the D.C. Capitol Police executed an unarmed mother in front of her child.

    1. It was not an operation. It was the spontaneous response of law enforcement to a violent intrusion into a highly sensitive area. Anyone dumb enough to behave belligerently in that part of town is a Darwin Award candidate.

      I fault the "cops" only for putting the child in the car to make the mother look derelict. That act has "Trayvon" written all over it. Yes, it is open season on blacks.

      At this point, it is moot as to whether she successfully signed up for "ObamaCare?"

  19. ex·e·cute/ verb, ex·e·cut·ed, ex·e·cut·ing.
    verb (used with object)
    1. to carry out; accomplish: to execute a plan or order.

    But I'm thinking you're using the term that means murder, right?

    1. 2. to perform or do: to execute a maneuver; to execute a gymnastic feat.
      3. to inflict capital punishment on; put to death according to law.
      4. to murder; assassinate.

  20. Rates of Female Genital Mutilation in selected Muslim countries. Sourced from WHO by Goodman (2011). HOW CIVILIZATIONS DIE

    Djibouti 93.1%
    Egypt 91,1
    Eritrea 88.7
    Mali 85.2
    Mauritania 72.2
    Niger 02.2
    Nigeria 29.6
    Senegal 28.2
    Leone 94.0
    Somalia 97.9
    Sudan 90.0
    Yemen 38.2

    1. All look like places to avoid.
      But then, again, when one looks at the rate for Egypt - 91.1 %

      There are 80 million people in Egypt. 9 million are Coptic Christians,, over 11% of the population.

      Do the Coptics practice the pathology, too?

      If not, the 91.1% rate would seem to be high.
      At least on the face of it.

    2. If the Egyptian number is inaccurate, are the others as well?

    3. I will accept WHOs numbers as accurate. Your percentage of Copts in Egypt is incorrect. The number is 4.3% according to Pew. No, the Copts do not practice FGM.

    4. The number of Coptics is referenced in NewMax ...
      ... at 9 million people in Egypt.

      That would put their percentage of he Egyptian population at 11.25%
      Perhaps NewMax is not reliable.

      I will cross check that number, elsewhere

      Christianity is a minority religion in Egypt. Egyptian Christians are generally known as Copts and account for about 15-20% of the population.

      Which would put the Coptic population at around 12 to 16 million.

    6. Elsewhere in wiki the number is reported to be between 5 and 15 million‎
      Aug 20, 2013 - Coptic Christians comprise about ten percent of Egypt's population. › News › World news › Egypt‎
      Sep 16, 2013 - Egypt's Coptic Christians, who form about 10% of the country's 85 million population,

      The WHO numbers do not conform to the norm.
      Their reliability is suspect.
      Unless you have some other reference than the UN, we just cannot trust those "One Worlders" to report the truth.
      They have an agenda all their own.

      Sorry, allen.

      Today, Copts form almost 13% to 15% of Egypts population though they are not ethnically ...‎
      Sep 17, 2013 - Violent attacks on Egypt's large minority of Coptic Christians since July ... the Coptic Christians, who are about 10 percent of the population,‎
      Aug 20, 2013 - Coptic Christians make up about 9 percent of Egypt's population of 85 million,‎
      Aug 19, 2013 - As violence envelops Egypt, Christians are paying a heavy price with ... of the Muslim Brotherhood in what one Coptic leader called an attempt at ... of Christians, who make up about 10 percent of the nation's population‎
      Aug 15, 2013 - The night before, a mob -- chanting against Coptic Christians such as ... The CIA World Factbook says 10% of Egypt's population .

      Cannot find a single reference that agrees with the WHO.

    8. Your WHO number is the outlier ...
      It is far from the norm

      It seems unreliable.

    9. Which would make their entire data set of questionable worth.

    10. I mean, really, why would trust the UN to get it correct?


    1. It's difficult to play the drums in a suit coat. But worth it if you get the girl!


  23. Actually, SHITFULL, my opinion there came from Judge Jeanine Pierro. Had just listened to her and a defense attorney discussing the situation on Fox News. Both agreed that the SUV driver is not liable. Both agreed the bikers are liable.

    The SUV driver was totally surrounded by bikers, in a threatening manner. He/she had every reason to be afraid.

    If you want to call Judge Pierro a "Fucking Fascist", go ahead, have at it.

    You are a moron.

    And the bikers weren't "peacefully assembling". They were out raising hell, and obstructing traffic, among other things, dumb shit.

    By the way, I see zero evidence that the Feds are coming down on Zimmerman, as you assured the world they would do.

  24. I have to laugh at rat. He really is dumb. One shouldn't laugh at those without any intelligence, but in his case, an exception seems fitting,, and may be made.

    1. When arguments are prolonged and well drawn out, men of mediocrity and of low intelligence are apt to be rude.

    2. Winston seems to have your number, anonymous.

    3. A hundred bikers, most with flip up license plates to conceal their identity, with full head gear too, obstructing traffic, raising all sorts of hell cruising down the public ways --

      Only SHITFULL would call that a peaceful assembly.


    4. That is not what said, Farmer Fudd.

      You put the number at a limit of 5, not 500.

      Perhaps no more than five bikers should be allowed to ride together in a group ...

      If you do not remember what you have written ...
      Maybe you should stop writing.
      Or read it, again, before you make an even greater fool of yourself.

    5. You still qualify as a fucking fascist.

      Hater of the principles of freedom and liberty, as enshrined in the Constitution of the United States.

    6. If you had taken the time to investigate, you would have discovered that a permit was required,
      and not applied for. The bikers were already in violation of the law.

      One of the bikers arrested in the assualt had not had a drivers license since 1999.

      Perhaps law enforcement should target law-breaking individuals, not entire social groups.
      But that would not be as easy for the fascists like you to understand.

      You and yours fellow fascists all seem to favor collective punishments of social, cultural, ethnic, racial or religious groups.

      The method of collective punishment so far has proved effective.
      Moshe Dayan

      I went to Simple to Remember - Judaism on Line - they have a selection of Hitler quotes, concerning collective punishment of a particular group. it was full of fascist remarks.
      You'd fit right in, just exchange the word "Jew" for Muslim, Black, Mexican or ... biker.

      Myself, the remarks were so repugnant I wouldn't think to paste them into the thread.

    7. Betcha an Amero to a doughnut that NY has a helmet law.

      That the bikers have to wear helmets, in New York.
      Just guessing, but I'd bet money that the authoritative New Yorkers, home of Mayor Bloomberg, require wearing helmets when mounted on a motorcycle.

    8. .

      Myself, the remarks were so repugnant I wouldn't think to paste them into the thread.




    9. .

      I have to laugh at rat.

      Well, I wouldn't go that far, but I did have to stop and chuckle while skimming through the last blog stream when I saw some of sources he was quoting on his story on Fritz Thyssen.


      And now I think I've learned where he got is initial reference to Hegelian Dialectic.



    10. Well, I did think about it...
      Chose not to.

      It read to much like quot's and Farmer Fudd's rants about Muslims


    11. Hegelian Dialectic, There is an infrequent poster using that sign-on.
      Did not know that the tactic had a name, until I Googled it.

      But since it did, might as well use it.

      The Prescott Bush story,with regards Thyssen and Brown Brothers Harriman, that is rather settled.

      prescott bush brown brothers harriman thyssen

    12. Using the source I did, for the Thyssen story did get quot to admit that Israel attacked the USS Liberty with malice, forethought and premeditation.
      That they knew it was not an Egyptian freighter,
      That there was no mistake.
      It was not a friendly fire incident.

      There was a reason to use the source I did.

    13. .

      Good Lord, rat you are precious. I wasn't talking about John Loftus. I've already gone around with WiO on him. He is merely a cheap conspiracy theorist out to make a buck. His books read like chapters taken from The Search for Bigfoot.

      No, I was talking about the link you put up for the Tetrahedron Publishing Group and Dr. Leonard Horowitz.

      Dr. Leonard Horowitz, doctor, scholar, pusher of pills, creams and ointments, marketer of 528 Tones recordings of various sounds and ‘selfeggio’ tones ™ designed to “heal your DNA”. I noticed he was also a frequent guest on shows like Lilou’sEuropean Juicy Living Tour,, a website that caters to those interested in the likes of old Len and those like him such as Sue Larson, author of How To Reality and Time Shift and Sarina Stone, author of Sexual Energy, Energizing Organs and Seminal Retention for Logevity.

      And what is the Tetrahedron Publishing Group? Well that's easy, just go to the home page, Now scroll down past the ad for 528: Prosperity Key of Love until you come to the first video. It should tell you just about everything you need to know about Tetrahedron Publishing Group as well as some of the things you have mentioned here lately. Hegelian dialectic anyone? But the site doesn’t limit itself. If you watch the video long enough you will come across every conspiracy theory imaginable from excusing the Protocols of Zion as being misunderstood to government mind control to the Illuminati to arguing that the small audience for their lecture that night was because of a conspiracy of the media. You can’t make it up. Well, on second thought I stand corrected. I guess you can.

      Admittedly, the site does provide a different take on many subjects.



  25. Yep, a little investigation does indicate that those bikers were in violation of any number of laws...
    But they were being compliant, wearing hose helmets. Dimwit

    New York Motorcycle Laws -
    Safety Helmet: Required by Law
    Eye Protection: Required by law
    Mirrors: One required by law
    Headlight: Daytime headlight required. Modulating headlight permitted.

    1. If you had taken a minute to READ ...
      You would have known that the bikers were already in violation of the law, that the New York police failed to enforce the existing laws.
      You would have known that the idea of enacting new, more restrictive laws would be a ludicrous proposition, since the current laws were not being enforced, by the NYPD.

      But that would have taken some time, some READING and a minimal amount of thinking, on your part.

  26. They were only "peacefully assembling". Said so your idiotic self. They couldn't have been in violation of any laws if they were peacefully assembling, exercising their constitutional rights, there at 60mph down the public right of way. raising hell and scaring motorists.



    1. No, what I said was in response to your statement ...

      Perhaps no more than five bikers should be allowed to ride together in a group ...

      Which has nothing to do with the particulars of the New York assault

      In reply to your admonition that liberty for ALL bikers should be curtailed,
      ... that their right to assembly should be restricted, I responded ...

      Limit every ones freedom and the liberty to peaceable assemble, because HE is afraid..

      When you advocate limiting motorcycles to groups of five, that is what you are saying.
      You have expanded the proposal to restrict peaceable assembly far beyond the confines of New York,
      far beyond the confines of this particular incident.

      You propose to limit all people to a maximum assembly of five motorcycles.

      You disrespect the very precepts embodied in the Constitution.
      You are still a fucking fascist.

    2. And all of your ....

      Bwahahahahahhaha ing

      Will not change that.

  27. In Chicago, 1968, there were violent demonstrations in the city of Chicago,at the Democratic National Convention.

    Would you put the same standard in place?
    Attempt to curtail that type of violence at future political gatherings by limiting those assemblies to a maximum of five people, too?

  28. Expect rat to say one day that flash mobs are a constitutionally protected form of assembly, an exercise in freedom of speech.


    The idea of five bikers is as a suggested safety measure. Many times I've had a couple dozen bikers whiz by on a freeway in and out of traffic, all trying to keep up with each other. It poses a danger, I think. They are all packed in together, following too close, and they make the driving situation very confusing.


    1. Driving is a privilege not a right.

      Rat's ability to distort, confuse and misdirect? All fit into his personality disorder.

      Arguing with Rat on any topic? Is like pushing pudding up a hill.

      So why waste your time?

  29. Farmer Fudd would make this an illegal acivity

    Bikers kick off panhandle Toys for Tots drive
    Sep 29, 2013

    AMARILLO - Even for Skooter's biker bar, Sunday's afternoon crowd was unusually large.

    Hundreds of bikers from Amarillo and surrounding areas packed the streets all for a good cause. "It's good for the children, the less fortunate children, and we can help provide a Christmas for them. It's just a good deed to do," Amarillo biker Bryan Cross said.

    U.S. Marines have partnered with area biker organizations for the last 14 years to kick off the Toys for Tots drive with a bang. "It has absolutely grown exponentially and the support has been amazing," Biker Sunday committee member Glenda Woolam said.

    Woolam estimates more than 1,200 bikers attended this year's Biker Sunday, each with at least one toy, proving that the tough-looking biker crowd has a soft side.
    "Bikers are all types, most of us are soft-hearted. We all come from different walks of life and enjoy riding, but we also enjoy helping out and doing a lot of good things, and just doing good deeds,"
    Cross said.

    More than $25,000 in toys were gathered just today making the first big step to guaranteeing every child in the panhandle has a merry Christmas.
    "We're very excited that Amarillo and the surrounding communities, even surrounding states, have taken part in making sure that kids have a Christmas this year,"
    Woolam said.

    The Biker Sunday event also raffled off a brand new Harley Davidson bike this year, all to raise money for Toys for Tots cause.

    You are. Robert, a fucking freedom hating fascist

    1. "You are. Robert, a fucking freedom hating fascist"

      Approved by Deuce.


  30. Giving Up Liberty for Security
    It's big government's favorite (bad) argument.

    Andrew Napolitano | July 25, 2013

    ... The allegations ... unleashed are that Americans have a government that assaults our personal freedoms, operates in secrecy and violates the Constitution and the values upon which it is based.
    The recriminations are that safety is a greater good than liberty, ....
    In the course of this debate, you have heard the argument that we all need to sacrifice some liberty in order to assure our safety, that liberty and safety are in equipoise, and when they clash, it is the government that should balance one against the other and decide which shall prevail.
    This is, of course, an argument the government loves, as it presupposes that the government has the moral, legal and constitutional power to make this satanic bargain.

    It doesn't.

    1. Roman emperors and tribal chieftains, King George III and French revolutionaries, 20th-century dictators and 21st-century American presidents all have asserted that their first job is to keep us safe, and in doing so, they are somehow entitled to take away our liberties, whether it be the speech they hate or fear, the privacy they capriciously love to invade or the private property and wealth they salaciously covet.

      This argument is antithetical to the principal value upon which America was founded. That value is simply that individuals -- created in the image and likeness of God and thus possessed of the freedoms that He enjoys and has shared with us -- are the creators of the government. A sovereign is the source of his own powers. The government is not sovereign. All the freedom that individuals possess, we have received as a gift from God, who is the only true sovereign. All of the powers the government possesses it has received from us, from our personal repositories of freedom

      You still are, Robert, a fucking fascist.


    3. Here is where the modern-day tyrants and big-government apologists have succeeded in confusing well-meaning people.

      They have elevated safety -- which is a goal of government -- to the level of freedom -- which created the government.

      This common and pedestrian argument makes the creature -- safety -- equal its creator -- freedom. That is a metaphysical impossibility because it presumes that the good to be purchased is somehow equal to the free choices of the purchaser.

  31. You and Obama, Robert, are like peas in a pod.

    You are just to ignorant to understand basic American principles...
    Focused as you are upon partisanship, race, ethnicity and religion.

    1. As the Judge says, Robert, you are advocating for a satanic bargain.
      Limiting liberty for a vestige of security tha is unattainable.

      You would grant the government ever more power to limit liberty, when it has failed to exercise the power it already had.

      You are a fucking fascist.

    2. Dread Pirate Robert would limit your freedom and liberty, because he is afraid of motorcycles on the highway.

      There are already traffic laws which make the actions he abhors, mentioned above, illegal.
      But that is not enough for Dread Pirate Robert, oh no.
      He wants to limit everyone's liberty, so he will FEEL safer.

      He and Obama, brothers in the pursuit of public safety.

    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    4. What is funny on the face of it ...
      Robert, wrapped in over a ton of metal, is afraid of motorcycles when they are around his car, rolling down the highway.
      Hit one of em, they'll fly through the air, hit the ground, bounce and roll a few times, Robert could dent a fender.

      But he is afraid.
      He is always afraid, of Muslims, Blacks, Mexicans .... bikers.
      Shit, he is even afraid of the desert rat.

    5. desert ratSun Oct 06, 04:19:00 AM EDT
      What is funny on the face of it ...
      Robert, wrapped in over a ton of metal, is afraid of motorcycles when they are around his car, rolling down the highway.
      Hit one of em, they'll fly through the air, hit the ground, bounce and roll a few times, Robert could dent a fender.

      But he is afraid.
      He is always afraid, of Muslims, Blacks, Mexicans .... bikers.
      Shit, he is even afraid of the desert rat.

      A narcissistic sociopath is someone with a combination of narcissistic personality disorder and definitive behavioral signs of sociopathy. People with narcissism are characterized by their excessive and persistent need for others' admiration and positive reinforcement. They generally have grandiose opinions of themselves and believe they are superior to other people. Narcissists are also frequently convinced that they are above the normal responsibilities and obligations of everyday life, so they usually have significant difficulties maintaining employment or relationships as a result. The narcissistic sociopath has this type of personality along with a noticeable lack of regard for the rights of others and a tendency to regularly violate those rights.

      One noted difference between a narcissistic sociopath and people with narcissism alone is that the narcissist with the sociopathy reacts strongly and sometimes even violently to negative feedback. True sociopaths generally do not respond to criticism or care what others may think of them. A narcissistic sociopath is unable to tolerate criticism and needs constant praise, as well as deference from other people. Many with this condition present themselves in the best light possible and are able to easily charm others to gain their trust.