“Soft despotism is a term coined by Alexis de Tocqueville describing the state into which a country overrun by "a network of small complicated rules" might degrade. Soft despotism is different from despotism (also called 'hard despotism') in the sense that it is not obvious to the people."

Sunday, August 19, 2007

The Brits had enough in Basra. Success or failure?

...American criticism of Britain's desire to pull back in southern Iraq has recently become public, with a US intelligence official telling The Washington Post this month that "the British have basically been defeated in the south". A senior British commander countered, "That's to miss the point. It was never that kind of battle, in which we set out to defeat an enemy." Other officers said the British force was never configured to "clear and hold" Basra in the way the Americans are seeking to do in Baghdad."...

Military commanders tell Brown to withdraw from Iraq without delay

By Raymond Whitaker and Robert Fox
Published: 19 August 2007 Independent

Senior military commanders have told the Government that Britain can achieve "nothing more" in south-east Iraq, and that the 5,500 British troops still deployed there should move towards withdrawal without further delay.

Last month Gordon Brown said after meeting George Bush at Camp David that the decision to hand over security in Basra province – the last of the four held by the British – "will be made on the military advice of our commanders on the ground". He added: "Whatever happens, we will make a full statement to Parliament when it returns [in October]."

Two generals told The Independent on Sunday last week that the military advice given to the Prime Minister was, "We've done what we can in the south [of Iraq]". Commanders want to hand over Basra Palace – where 500 British troops are subjected to up to 60 rocket and mortar strikes a day, and resupply convoys have been described as "nightly suicide missions" – by the end of August.

The withdrawal of 500 soldiers has already been announced by the Government. The Army is drawing up plans to "reposture" the 5,000 that will be left at Basra airport, and aims to bring the bulk of them home in the next few months.

Before the invasion in 2003, officers were told that the Army's war aims were to bring stability and democracy to Iraq and to the Middle East as a whole. Those ambitions have been drastically revised, the IoS understands. The priorities now are an orderly withdrawal, with the reputation and capability of the Army "reasonably intact", and for Britain to remain a "credible ally". The final phrase appears to refer to tensions with the US, which has more troops in Iraq than at any other time, including the invasion, as it seeks to impose order in Baghdad and neighbouring provinces.

American criticism of Britain's desire to pull back in southern Iraq has recently become public, with a US intelligence official telling The Washington Post this month that "the British have basically been defeated in the south". A senior British commander countered, "That's to miss the point. It was never that kind of battle, in which we set out to defeat an enemy." Other officers said the British force was never configured to "clear and hold" Basra in the way the Americans are seeking to do in Baghdad.

Immediate American discontent is said to centre on the CIA's reluctance to leave Basra Palace, an important base for watching Iran, which may explain why Britain has held on to the complex until now. But last week it was reported that US intelligence operatives were in the process of pulling out. Further ahead, the US is concerned over the security of its vital supply line from Kuwait, with some American commanders saying that if the British withdraw, American troops will have to be sent south to replace them. As the hub of Iraq's oil industry, Basra is also a tempting prize for the Shia militias battling each other for control.

There are fears that the bloody power struggle in Basra will escalate sharply if and when British troops depart, but commanders point out that up to 90 per cent of the violence is directed against their forces. They are understood to believe it was never the role of occupation troops to intervene in a "turf war" among factions from the same community, all of which have links to the government coalition in Baghdad.

Mr Brown will have to take these wider concerns into account, in reaching a decision that has political as well as military implications. At Camp David he stressed that "we have duties to discharge and responsibilities to keep" in support of the Iraqi government and "the explicit will" of the international community. The 15 September report on the progress of the security "surge" by the US commander in Iraq, General David Petraeus, and the American ambassador to Baghdad, Ryan Crocker, will be crucial to British as well as US military plans.

General Petraeus is expected to report mixed results, and to plead for more time for the surge to work. But the White House, under pressure from Republicans facing disaster in the 2008 elections, is likely to announce at least some troop reductions. British commanders, and some US commentators, believe that will enable the Prime Minister to spell out plans for a British withdrawal when MPs return in October, although the process may last well into next year.


  1. Michael Totten last week - Those infiltrators in the Iraqi Army are trained every day by the Americans.

    “They act like our friends,” said Master Sergeant Tyler. “It is a façade to an extent, yes. They get benefits from having a good relationship with us and will do and say anything to keep us on their side.”

    I heard rumors that the Iraqi Army colonel in charge of his side of War Eagle is himself a supporter of Moqtada al Sadr. I could not, however, confirm that with Military Intelligence. Maybe it’s true and maybe it isn’t. American soldiers there believe it is.

    Nothing makes me more pessimistic about Iraq’s future prospects than this. The Mahdi Army is Iran’s major proxy in Iraq. It is, in effect, the Iraqi branch of Hezbollah.

    We invaded Iraq to fight Saddam (phase I), then wound up fighting anarchy and a Sunni insurgency (phase II), and now phase III is about to dawn where we fight the Shiite insurgency. Since the solution (short of breaking up Iraq) to this would be installing a brand new Saddam, this would really suck and more or less ring us full circle.

    The Brits are smart enough to flee in the nick of time.

  2. From the Telegraph:

    British forces useless in Basra, say officials

    Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph
    Last Updated: 12:42am BST 19/08/2007

    When America's top commanders in Iraq held a conference with their British counterparts recently, Major General Jonathan Shaw - Britain's senior officer in Basra - was quick to share his views on how best to conduct counter-insurgency operations.

    For much of the last four years, the Americans in the room would have listened carefully, used to deferring to their British colleagues' long experience in Northern Ireland. This time, however, eyes that would once have been attentive simply rolled.

    British troops face angry scenes in Basra, British forces useless in Basra, say officials
    On the defensive: British troops face angry scenes in Basra

    Few were in the mood for a lecture about British superiority, when they fear that Downing Street's planned pull-out from Basra will squander any progress from their own hard-fought "troop surge" strategy elsewhere.

    "It's insufferable for Christ's sake," said one senior figure closely involved in US military planning. "He comes on and he lectures everybody in the room about how to do a counter-insurgency. The guys were just rolling their eyeballs. The notorious Northern Ireland came up again. It's pretty frustrating. It would be okay if he was best in class, but now he's worst in class. Everybody else's area is getting better and his is getting worse."

    The meeting, called by General David Petraeus, the senior US officer who has the task of managing the surge, is emblematic of what is fast becoming a minor crisis in Anglo-American military relations." Read the rest.

  3. Fred Kagan on Hugh Hewitt said this week that he is "cautiously optimistic" about movements by Shia Sheiks toward the Coalition and away from Muqtada al-Sadr. Transcript

  4. Steve Emerson said Mueller's coming out with a bombshell shocker in a week or so that he gaurantees is gonna make people more angry about appeasing the Muslims.

    Says Immams in prisons paid by the government are actually working for Al Queda.
    No oversight, or due diligence, before they are allowed in, or after they start doing their dirty work of converting folks like Padilla.

    Says Kyle did an investigation 3 years ago and found an Alice in Wonderland situation:

    The only check that had been done was a survey handed out to all the Immams asking if they had ever preached radical jihadist stuff.
    Praise be to Allah, every single dark soul swore they never did. - PBUH!

    Says all wardens are concerned with is keeping peace in the cellblocks while they are there, and the immams are actually helpful in that, it's just that when they get out, they hate the great Satan with the best of them.

    If you're cool with that, like Trish, no big whups:

  5. One Ace in the hole the Pubs have for '08 was provided to us by none other than GWB:
    Mel Martinez as chairmen:
    Nothing like having a traitorous amnesty loving leader to really rally the base.
    He presently spends his time chiding Rudy and Romney for not telling the base to go to Hell like he and W, Teddy, and McCain did.
    just fucking Brilliant!

  6. Oh, come on now, hermanos. Let US get with the Program.

    Mr Cheney and Ms Rice, both are on the record. The Brits have found success in Basra, they both said so when the Brits announced, in Feb 07, they were leaving.
    No doubt about that.

    Who are these disloyal miltitary officers, to roll their eyes at the statements of US civilian officials?
    US Military officers not on the right political page should be removed, post haste, from Iraq.

    A little intra-mural violence, is to be expected, but most of the violence is aimed at the occupiers, the non-Iraqi.
    So report the Brits

    Iraq for Iraqi, that's the ticket. If the US wants to micro-manage Iraq, well, we'll need to send another 20,000 troops. Troops I read we do not have to send. Maybe the US should extend those rotations, in Iraq, to 24 months. Mr Trotten reports things are peaceful enough that, then we could get more troops there, for success. Upwards of 180,000 but that'd still not be enough to "win" or even secure the supply routes.

    Maybe another Election will do the trick, problem being, for US, there is an election in the US scheduled before the next Iraqi election.

    This popcorn is stale, have the Maria cook up another batch, will ya?

  7. U.S. Forces Tracking Iranians in Iraq

    It will be "news" when we get the "kill reports."

  8. Well, whit, if the last two days are indicitive of the overall effort and there is no reason to think they were not, then ...

    6 bad guys killed, 41 detained.

    No more prison capacity has been built, so 41 other detainees were released, it can be assumed. As "over crowded" prisons are a human rights abuse. Which is a no-no.

    Press Releases from the Multi National Force.
    MNF, that be US and a dozen Lithuanians?

  9. We could send Jr's National Guard unit, but they don't have enough personal weapons for each trooper to be assigned one. No they have one weapon per three Guardsmen.

    Much like the Chinese, in Korea.
    Just pick weapons up from the dead while on the advance, that's the "New Way Forward"

    No need to zero and qualify.

  10. once the brits leave then the shits will take over with iran's help

    thus causing a great place to unload all faulty and old cluster munitions without care or fanfare

    this war is getting hot...

    not all lands need to be held, england will need her troops in london very soon

    and when this finally breaks open there will be large areas of land where the west will not walk...

    but the good news? there will be no food, water, electricity or medicine there either

    natural law...


    and yes survival of the fittest all coming to a shit (shitte) town soon...

    just look to gaza (hamasistan) if the israelis did not allow trucks with food, supplies and fuel it would be the same...

    time for a little tribal blood lettiing...

  11. Yeah, wi"o", if those Israeli did not release cash to their foes, why then the enemy might "melt down". Can't have that, then there's be no partners for peace.

    Both the Israeli and the US, keep the ball rollin', subsidizing the Enemy, to fight another day.

    The path to peace.
    Viewed through rose colored glasses.

  12. That had to hurt, at least for a second.

  13. Great link, b d-day, as there are two other interesting videos. The Aussies sinking a NorK frieghter, without concern for the pollution caused, and this one from the American Enterprise Institute.

    It is so mmuch more interesting watching Dick Cheney, then just reading the transcripts of his talks.

  14. Israel, sends millions of USD to terrorists, but cannot find a place for 400 refugees of mussulman genocide, despite past promises from Mr Olmert.

    The hypocricy of the Isreaeli stinks to high heaven.

    Send them back to the Death Camps.

    Genocide deniers, those Israeli.

  15. Brother D -day made my day....excellent!

  16. French foreign minister in Iraq

    "French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner has arrived in the Iraqi capital Baghdad for a visit at the invitation of the country's president.
    The visit marks the first time a French minister has been to Iraq since it opposed the US-led invasion in 2003.

    The election in May of Nicolas Sarkozy as French president brought a big improvement in relations with the US.

    The French Foreign Ministry said Mr Kouchner was in the country to express a "message of solidarity".

    The ministry's statement said: "At the invitation of Mr. Jalal Talabani, president of Iraq, the foreign minister has just begun an official visit to Baghdad.

    "Bernard Kouchner is in Baghdad to express a French message of solidarity with the Iraqi people and to listen to the representatives of all communities."

    Mr Sarkozy - who recently had informal talks with US President George Bush - has already said that the US could count on his friendship."

  17. Jose Carranza isn't exactly a member of an exclusive club. Violent crime committed by fine upstanding members of the Undocumented-American community is now a routine feature of American life. But who cares? In 2002, as the "Washington Sniper" piled up his body count, "experts" lined up to tell the media that he was most likely an "angry white male," a "macho hunter" or an "icy loner." When the icy loner turned out to be a black Muslim named Muhammad accompanied by an illegal immigrant from Jamaica, the only angry white males around were the lads in America's newsrooms who were noticeably reluctant to abandon their thesis: Early editions of the New York Times speculated that Muhammad and John Lee Malvo were being sought for "possible ties to 'skinhead militia' groups," which seemed a somewhat improbable alliance given the size of Mr. Muhammad's hair in the only available mug shot. As for his illegal sidekick, Malvo was detained and released by the INS in breach of their own procedures.

    America has a high murder rate: Murdering people is definitely one of the jobs Americans can do. But that's what ties young Malvo to Jose Carranza: He's just another killer let loose in this country to kill Americans by the bureaucracy's boundless sensitivity toward the "undocumented." Will the Newark murders change anything? Will there be an Ioefemi Hightower Act of Congress like the Matthew Shepard Act passed by the House of Representatives? No. Three thousand people died Sept. 11, 2001, in an act of murder facilitated by the illegal-immigration support structures in this country, and, if that didn't rouse Americans to action, another trio of victims seems unlikely to tip the scales. As Michelle Malkin documented in her book "Invasion," four of the killers boarded the plane with photo ID obtained through the "undocumented worker" network at the 7-Eleven in Falls Church, Va. That's to say, officialdom's tolerance of the illegal immigration shadow-state enabled 9/11. And what did we do? Not only did we not shut it down, we enshrined the shadow-state's charade as part of the new tough post-slaughter security procedures.

    Go take a flight from Newark Airport. The TSA guy will ask for your driver's license, glance at the name and picture, and hand it back to you. Feel safer? The terrorists could pass that test, and the morning of 9/11 they did: 19 foreign "visitors" had, between them, 63 valid U.S. driver's licenses. Did government agencies then make it harder to obtain lawful photo ID? No. Since 9/11, the likes of Maryland and New Mexico have joined those states that issue legal driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.

    Newark is the logical end point of these policies. It is a failed city: 60 percent of its children are being raised in households without fathers. Into that vacuum pour all kinds of alternative authority structures: Mr. Carranza is alleged to have committed his crime with various teenage members of MS-13, a gang with origins in El Salvador's civil war of the 1980s that now operates in some 30 U.S. states. In its toughest redoubts, immigrants don't assimilate with America, America assimilates to the immigrants, and a Fairfax, Va., teenager finds himself getting hacked at by machete wielders.

    MARK STEYN reveals his perspective.

  18. Gutsy move.
    Now if only all those Muslim Punks would come out to play, and he came down on them HARD!

  19. Trish has yet to say word one on illegals, except to assert that I appear to be a racist hater.
    I always like it when we blame us first, without even mentioning those responsible for the mayhem.
    Viva La Raza!

  20. This is what I thought:

    "Britain faces Iraq rout says US
    A MILITARY adviser to President George W Bush has warned that British forces will have to fight their way out of Iraq in an “ugly and embarrassing” retreat.

    Stephen Biddle, who also advises the US commander in Iraq, said Iranian-backed Shi’ite militias in the south would try to create the impression they were forcing a retreat. “They want to make it clear they have forced the British out. That means they’ll use car bombs, ambushes, RPGs [rocket-propelled grenades] . . . and there will be a number of British casualties.”

    The comments coincide with British military estimates that withdrawal could cost the lives of 10 to 15 soldiers.

    Some British officers believe they are facing a “humiliating” retreat under fire to Kuwait or the southern Iraqi port of Umm Qasr.

    “I regret to say that the Basra experience is set to become a major blunder in terms of military history,” said a senior officer. “The insurgents are calling the shots . . . and in a worst-case scenario will chase us out of southern Iraq.”

    Gordon Brown, the prime minister, has agreed with Bush that no decision will be made to withdraw until after General David Petraeus, the US commander, delivers a report to Congress next month on the progress of the Americans’ “troop surge”.

    But the British are expected to pull back to a single base at Basra airport soon in preparation for withdrawal.

    Biddle, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations who advised Bush on the troop surge, said Iran would use its influence with the Shi’ite Mahdi Army to exploit the situation.

    “It will be a hard withdrawal. They want the image of a British defeat . . . It will be ugly and embarrassing,” he said.

    The Ministry of Defence said the British were not heading for defeat. “Although the militias are trying to claim credit for ‘driving us out’, they are failing.”

  21. Obama's wife thinks he or her can't go get gas w/o fear of being shot.
    Think it was mostly white folk in Maryland getting shot while filling up, getting out of Safeway, and etc.
    That FBI lady shot dead coming out of the store was a graphic scene.
    "Afraid of people who look different, have different beliefs."

    ...she's tired (and Angry) about living in a country like this.

    Smart, beautiful, infected with the Marxist Dogma of Academe.
    Truly sad.

  22. "I don't want my girls to be raised in a country, based on fear."
    Pure 60's New Left BS Dogma.

  23. As Mr Steyn relates, doug, she should be afraid for her people.

    Those Guats and Salvadorans hate blacks. And as more and more of them arrive on our shores, the incidents of violence against the Black Community will increase.

    Just as it has in Newark.

    Those on the lower rungs of the economic ladder feeling the heat first, well before the elites at the top.

    Mrs Obama is just feeling her communities pain. Those Central Americans ARE classified as "white", you know.

    The "white man" allows the immigration to continue, at the expense of the
    "Black Community".
    Little argument there.

  24. "I'm a loudmouth,
    he can be President,
    cause he can deal with me.
    The first Ophra President.
    ...better another Okra President like Harry T!

  25. Blacks are written off by the Globalist Boners:
    More Mexicans now, and they grow much more quickly.
    Rovian Morality for Ivy League Boners.

  26. Blacks have been F..... by Immigration, matched only by the welfare system.

  27. dr..

    Israel has absorded thousands of moslems already from darfur, bosnia, jordan, lebanon and yes palestine..

    It is a problem...

    please look at a map and see that these "darfur" refugees escaped darfur about 2 countries BEFORE they got smuggled into israel, so the truth?

    yes they escaped darfur, so why are they trying to reach israel and not egypt (where they WERE)?

    As for your C-4 like comment about israel funding the palios, actually Israel has no choice... the way the WORLD has stacked the deck israel is damed if they do or dont...

    Personally I'd respond to kassams as an act of war and drive the gazans into the sinai and make gaza a dead zone, the world be damned...

    but not to fret, the thinking (i think) will be to create the no choice for the arabs to kill off each other, thus saving us the morality choice of killing them.

    Already in lebanon, iraq, jordan, and the palio areas they are murdering each other with ever increasing lethality...

    just look for the signs...

    in lebanon the gov troops have bombed a palio camp into the stone age killing who knows how many and are still fighting after 3 months...

    look for the arab world to do "hama" on each other...

    just last week in iraq 500 dead, the remainder of the kurds fled the country..

    ethnic cleansing has arrived in islamoworld...


    keep your powder dry, things are getting interesting

  28. "Those on the lower rungs of the economic ladder feeling the heat first, well before the elites at the top."
    Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, and etc Legal Citizens all victimized first.
    They deserve it for being at the opposite end of the spectrum from the Ivy covered boner elite.

  29. "As for your C-4 like comment about israel funding the palios, actually Israel has no choice... the way the WORLD has stacked the deck israel is damed if they do or dont..."
    I thot part of the responsibility lies with electing a "man" named Olmert, just like we elected a "man" named Bush.

  30. Pays to learn from our mistakes, methinks.

  31. I really don't think the WORLD makes it inevitable that we give Iran a Billion Bucks while we say they are at war with us and represent an Existential threat.
    Maybe 'Rat is Anti-Americano?

  32. Occupation brings up the Kurds.
    How come you think the Kurds are the shits, Trish?

  33. wi"o",
    When the Brits turned away, from Palistine, thousands of jewish refugees they were portrayed as heartless bigots.

    What goes around comes atound.

    That the mussulmen of Egypt do not extend a helpful hand to the Darfurian refugees is no excuse for the Israeli not to.
    Oh no, the immorality of the mussulmen provides no excuse or rationalization for the Israeli to behave in a similar manner.

    Only selfishness and bigotry provides rationalization for returning the Darfurians to death camps in Sudan. I expect it from the mussulmen, not the Israeli.

    The Israel are soverign, they decide what course to take. If the choose to fund the terror masters of Fatah and Hamas, well that is on them, not US, nor the World.

    The Israeli just another Middle Eastern tribe, one that should be left to it's own devices if their hearts are so small as to deny the 400 genocide victims sanctuary.

    Genocide deniers, right on the same moral plain as Abracadbra.

  34. Imagine that column there, to the side of the Blue pup, represents the cinderblock column next to the Jihadi Mortarman.
    Identical situation, symbolically speaking, for anyone in the immediate area.

  35. Another Pasel of Tribes:
    A Plan for Iraq

    By Ayad Allawi

    Next month, Gen. David Petraeus, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, and Ambassador Ryan Crocker will report to Congress on the situation in my country. I expect that the testimony of these two good men will be qualified and nuanced, as politics requires. I also expect that their assessment will not capture the totality of the tragedy -- that more than four years after its liberation from Saddam Hussein, Iraq is a failing state, not providing the most basic security and services to its people and contributing to an expanding crisis in the Middle East.

    Let me be clear. Responsibility for the current mess in Iraq rests primarily with the Iraqi government, not with the United States. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has failed to take advantage of the Iraqi people's desire for peaceful and productive lives and of the enormous commitment and sacrifices made by the United States and other nations. The expected "crisis summit" in Baghdad is further evidence of the near-complete collapse of the Iraqi government. The best outcome of the summit is perhaps a renewed effort or commitment for the participants to work together, which may buy a few more weeks or months of cosmetic political activity. But there will be no lasting political reconciliation under Maliki's sectarian regime.

    Who could have imagined that Iraq would be in such crisis more than four years after Saddam Hussein? Each month 2,000 to 3,000 Iraqi civilians are killed by terrorists and sectarian death squads. Electricity and water are available, at best, for only five to six hours a day. Baghdad, once evidence of Iraq's cultural, ethnic and religious diversity, is now a city of armed sectarian enclaves -- much like Beirut of the 1980s.

    It is up to Iraqis to end the violence and bring stability, security and democracy to our country.

  36. I was wondering why the EB post Three American Generals on Iraq EB has for the past couple of days been getting hits from all over the world including Riyadh and Ammon, Jordan.

    Could it be the evil doers trying to find a way to adjust to the surge? Are the Saudis monitoring anti-Saud cyber traffic? (You of you were coming down on them in the thread.) The common link was always from the Google search engine. So what were they searching for?

    Look carefully in the url at the link above. You'll find the answer. Report back to the EB.

  37. Errata:

    Some of you were coming down hard on the Sauds in the thread.

    These were hits on the "Three Generals" post in the last few minutes:

    Montral, Quebec
    Toronto, Ontario
    Snvre, Vestsjalland
    Elmhurst, Illinois
    Chicago, Illinois

  38. looks like an infidel poontang search to me.

  39. Bingo! We have a winner!

  40. do I win what they were searching for? i have no plans for the afternoon.

  41. From Riyadh and Ammon to Montreal and Toronto to Chicago to Snvre they are all the same. We have something in common, bring us together, Brit!

  42. Basra will be very bad. It is all about the oil:

    WASHINGTON, Aug. 16 (UPI) -- Political parties and their militias are fighting for power over the Basra government, the oil sector it controls, and the oil and fuels smuggling that bring in extra funds.
    The southern area, where much of Iraq’s oil wealth is located and nearly all its oil exports are sent to market, has been under the purview of British troops, who have allowed various factions to become the power base and their armed outfits to flourish.

    Now the British are leaving, and the intra-Shiite fighting that bloodied the streets and complicated provincial politics will explode. Even if U.S. troops, already stretched thin, are sent to mediate, the situation will likely not be calmed -- it will likely be inflamed.

    “It’s fundamentally related to the battle over oil,” said Reidar Visser, editor of the Iraq Web site and an Iraq expert at the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs. “It’s understandable, of course, given the size of the Basra reserves.”

    Nearly 80 percent of Iraq’s 115 billion barrels of proven reserves -- the third largest in the world -- are buried in or around Basra. With the northern pipeline shut by attacks, most of the 1.6 million barrels of oil per day exported last year went through the port in Basra, bringing enough money to Baghdad -- more than $31 billion -- to fund 93 percent of the federal budget. rest here

  43. dRat,

    "When the Brits turned away, from Palistine, thousands of jewish refugees they were portrayed as heartless bigots."

    I have no problem in being called a heartless bigot, and will happily confess to being such. However, your comparison doesn't hold water. A valid comparison here would be for Israel to deny entry to these Sudanese to the US where I'm to assume they will be heartily welcomed in your home.

    "Only selfishness and bigotry provides rationalization for returning the Darfurians to death camps in Sudan."

    One, they're not returned to Sudan. Two,
    why bother with borders then? Why bother with private ownership? Because if your casa is now me casa I want you to hand it over, you heartless american capitalist bigoted pig! You can sleep under a tree in Sudan. If you find one.

  44. No, mat, the economic refugees from Latin America are welcomed into the heartland of America. Along with tens of thousands of purpled fingered Iraqis.

    Day after day. We're doing our share, and more to alliviate disparity of opportunity.

    Where are the survivors of genicide returned to, if not the Sudan?
    Egypt, a weigh station on the trail, back to Darfur. Or perhaps to the West Bank, where Israel largess flows so freely?

    Mr Olmert gave his word, now Israel reneges, par for the course.
    That is the crux, Israelis words, promises, not worth a damn to 400 survivors of genocide.
    That is the value of Israeli promises, what should be taken to the bank, by all concerned.

    Those that claim special privilege proving not worthy of the gifts bestowed. They have forgotten, plain as day. They will be forgotten, by US, just as easily.
    Deservedly so.

  45. "No, mat, the economic refugees from Latin America are welcomed into the heartland of America."

    Not by me. And not if I had anything to say about it.

    "Mr Olmert gave his word.."

    Perhaps you're better informed than I. Though none the wiser.

  46. dRat,

    Mr Olmert, just like Mr Rabin, already has a bullet with his name inscribed on it by a US President. Whether Mr Olmert proves himself worthy of the gift bestowed, I say he already has.

  47. What is wrong with the concept of, "Your problem is not my problem?" The world would be better off if everyone controlled their borders. Why the fascination with killing the nation state?

  48. United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has said that the trouble in Darfur was at least in part caused by climate change stemming from global warming. And it is true that they have had a heck of a drought laying total waste to land that was marginal to begin with. Forced the herders south to better conditions bumping into the folk there. Whether Ban Ki-moon is right about the ultimate cause of the drought is another matter.
    In other news, Las Vegas in nearing the end of its water supply. If they move north into Idaho, I fight!

    I agree with your last comment deuce.

  49. Come the day, I may end up advocating fences between states:) But not really.

  50. There are dozens of articles about the water situation in the west. Here's just one.
    Gotta keep the gamblers happy and the hookers occupied.

  51. Article From 1995 to 2006 Las Vegas went from 1 million to 2 million people. What a hell of a mess.

  52. The deserts boom, bob, blooming with people escaping the ice and cold.

    There is all the water in the world, in Lake Mead. Or there was, before the drought.

    Now it becomes a matter of allocation. Does that water flow to Phoenix, Tucson and Vegas, or LA?

    Water, water everywhere, but not a drop to spare.
    Islands become pennisulas before our eyes.

    We've already cut the Mexicans off from their "fair" share. The water wars, Californios always took to much for years, now they think they are deserving of it all.

    But, here's to hoping for the "big one", that'll stop the slide in housing prices, in Nevada and Arizona. Let the exodus begin.

  53. Interesting, mat, that bullets or the threat of them rule all the Parties in the Middle East, not ballots.

    If you can't get your way at the ballot box, kill the winner.

    Mussulman or Jew, makes no never mind. Bullets are the ballot of last resort.

    Gives lie to Israel being a democracy, does it not?

  54. If by 'big one' you are referring to an earthquake, Rat, it Might Happen

    Wouldn't take much to crack that dam.

  55. dRat,

    If Mr Olmert feels threatened he can apply for refugee status in the US.

  56. dr,

    you skipped over the part that i spoke of...

    Israel already accepts thousands of moslems from the arab moab, europe, & africa...

    Israel already has absorbed over 35% of it's total population from refugees thrown out of the arab/persian world

    these 400 did not somehow do a "great escape" to GET to israel, they got to the single largest arab nation in the world and then escaped to another land...

    jews turned away from the british mandate were ON FUCKING SHIPS AT SEA, with NO OTHER COUNTRY to except them, INCLUDING the USA, these people were returned to the camps and murdered

    To compare 400 darfur escapees, that MADE IT TO SAFTEY OUT of Sudan who THEN CHOOSE to try to sneak into ISRAEL is not the same issue...

    shame on you.

    Israel does and has absorbed MANY christians & moslems from the moab, she also STILL has accepted over 2800 illegals from sudan, with hundreds a week trying to break into israel for a better ECONOMIC LIFE, these people have found FREEDOM in Egypt, an escape from the "camps"...

    The 48 from darfur that have been returned to EGPYT as per the hot pursuit agreement with the prez for life Mubarik is just that, an agreement with the world's largest arab country to accept sudanese refugees that illegally sneak into israel.

    Now if can say you dont like it, but I thought you'd say, hey an arab country actually doing what it's suppose to do, being the center of refugees because of what FELLOW arabs are doing (in sudan)

    I guess your on a roll....

  57. "Interesting, mat, that bullets or the threat of them rule all the Parties in the Middle East, not ballots."


    At less than 2 percent public approval, the only mandate that Olmert and his government has is to resign. Of course, the reason they don't resign is because they are more influenced by money than the public's will. As such, I personally would have no problem putting a bullet to the back of these politicians head myself. I'm just that kind of a heartless bigot.

  58. mətušélaḥ said... At less than 2 percent public approval, the only mandate that Olmert and his government has is to resign.

    It's actually 8 % but who cares, he's not popular, but your not understanding how Israeli governments work, the truth? he's fine in power at the moment, it doesnt matter who is in charge, israel is expected to make concessions to the palios, leave disputed lands to the retards and tow the line that the UN, Quartet and the USA demand of her.

    mətušélaḥ said... Of course, the reason they don't resign is because they are more influenced by money than the public's will.

    hardly, it's neither... public will and money are not the issues, but that's what sounds good to the general public. The bigger issues are water, borders, the WAR that is coming with Iran, syria, golan, the retarded palios, resettlement of the Jews forced out of gaza and soon to be west bank, schools, and on and on..

    dont be so cynical, money and power always comes with the job but this is NOT why anyone from bibi to olmert is doing what they do..

    as for public opinion, they can VOTE in the next scheduled election, just like here in the usa

    mətušélaḥ said...As such, I personally would have no problem putting a bullet to the back of these politicians head myself. I'm just that kind of a heartless bigot.

    yep pretty heartless, i personally like olmert as a man, not a leader, but if you could read some of the things I have read, it is quite a scary role he plays being the head of the Jewish state.

    Israel has been at war for 60 years, she has 1/650th of the land of the middle east, no oil, water supplies being cut off and a trillion dollar group of enemies that have no shortage of cash, will or ways to try to murder any jew they can stick a knife into... and now these same retards, supplied by china, france and russia have longer ranger misslies, rockets and who KNOWS what...

    so sorry if i dont share your bullet in the back of olmerts head idea....

  59. WIO,

    Olmert can very easily dissolve these expectations for Israeli concessions. I have no patience for his brand of dumb animal, and would have no problems in putting such out of my misery.