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Saturday, November 02, 2013

One day before a scheduled the start of a Pakistani peace negotiation with the Taliban, a US drone strike kills the Taliban leader.


2 November 2013 Last updated at 11:07 ET

Hakimullah Mehsud drone strike: 'Death of peace efforts'
James Robbins explains how Mehsud became one of Americas most wanted

Pakistans interior minister has said the death of Pakistani Taliban leader Hakimullah Mehsud has destroyed the country's nascent peace process.

"This is not just the killing of one person, it's the death of all peace efforts," Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan said.
Pakistan's security forces have been put on high alert following the US drone strike on Friday.
It came a day before a Pakistani delegation had been due to fly to North Waziristan to meet Mehsud.
Mr Nisar said the government would lodge an official protest with the US embassy.

Analysis

M Ilyas Khan
BBC News, Islamabad

Hakimullah Mehsud was killed a day before Pakistani officials say they were scheduled to send a three-member team to start peace negotiations with the Taliban.
Pakistan's Interior Minister Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan told a local TV news channel, Geo, that the drone strike was an attempt to "sabotage" Pakistan's peace talks with Taliban.
But many believe Mehsud's death will leave the field open for groups that are known to have publicly favoured a rapprochement with Pakistan.
One of these groups is headed by Khan Said Sajna, the successor of Waliur Rehman, a militant commander who favoured talks with Islamabad and once contested the leadership of the Pakistani Taliban. Rehman was killed in a drone strike in May.
He accused the United States of "scuttling" efforts to begin peace talks, and said "every aspect" of Pakistan's co-operation with Washington would be reviewed.
Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif had pledged to talk with the Taliban to try to end its campaign of violence, which has left thousands dead in bombings and shootings across the country.
Mehsud was killed along with four other people - including two of his bodyguards - when four missiles struck their vehicle in the north-western region of North Waziristan, a senior Taliban official told the BBC.
Pakistani media say Mehsud's funeral has taken place at an unknown location in the tribal area of North Waziristan.
The Taliban's ruling council met on Saturday to choose a new leader. Unconfirmed reports say regional commander Khan Said Sajna has been elected to the top job.
Militants have in the past carried out retaliatory attacks after the killings of other Taliban commanders.
As well as Mehsud, the previous Pakistan Taliban leader was killed in a drone strike, in 2009.

Taliban setback
Caitlin Hayden, a spokesperson for the US president's National Security Council, would not comment on any US government involvement or confirm the death but said it would be a serious loss for the group.
The Pakistan government has strongly condemned the drone attack as a violation of Pakistan's sovereignty.

Hakimullah Mehsud spoke exclusively to the BBC in a recent interview
Mehsud's death is seen as another setback for the militant group after the recent capture of a senior commander by US forces in Afghanistan.
Mehsud, who led the insurgency from North Waziristan, had a $5m (£3.1m) FBI bounty on his head and was thought to be responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.
Continue reading the main story
Hakimullah Mehsud
  1. Became overall leader of Pakistani Taliban in 2009, aged 30, after his predecessor, Baitullah Mehsud, died in a US drone strike
  2. Masterminded campaign against Nato convoys in Khyber tribal region and Peshawar
  3. Emerged as a prominent fighter after reputedly leading a raid that captured 300 soldiers
  4. In 2010, he appeared in a video alongside a Jordanian who later killed seven CIA agents in Afghanistan in a suicide attack
  1. Obituary: Hakimullah Mehsud
He came to prominence in 2007 as a commander under the militant group's founder Baitullah Mehsud, with the capture of 300 Pakistani soldiers adding to his prestige among the militants.
His second-in-command, Waliur Rehman, was killed in a similar drone strike in May.
But BBC diplomatic correspondent James Robbins says that however weakened the Taliban may be by this loss, they will fight on under a new leader.
In a rare interview two weeks ago, Mehsud told the BBC he was open to "serious talks" with the government but said he had not yet been approached.
Mehsud denied carrying out recent deadly attacks in public places, saying his targets were "America and its friends".

He had loose control over more than 30 militant groups in Pakistan's tribal areas.

165 comments:

  1. Killing the leadership on the eve of negotiations seems idiotic. It makes it impossible for a replacement leader to consider negotiations as they would look weak compared to the martyred predecessor and there will be no shortage of replacements. Does anyone have a brain in DC that is capable of noticing that our present decade long strategy has not brought stability to any of the countries that we have warred on?

    It may be good for some OOrahs, but it does nothing to achieve our goals, whatever they are.

    ReplyDelete
  2. ISLAMABAD: Information Minister Pervaiz Rasheed has said the government would not let the drone strikes kill the dialogue process,

    Speaking to media persons here Saturday, the information minister said drones are used for killings, however, they would not let drones kill the dialogue process.
    This time around the drone attack targeted the dialogue process, he added.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Maybe the Taliban should do what the Israelis do? build schools, hospitals and roads for the enemy?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Israel should use drones and start taking out the Hamas and Fatah terrorists.

      Oh that's right only Israel is scolded when actually treating terrorist leaders as targets...

      Delete
    2. End the OccupationSat Nov 02, 12:38:00 PM EDT

      As of November 27, 2012 Israeli authorities had demolished 568 Palestinian homes and other buildings in the West Bank ...
      ... (including East Jerusalem), displacing 1,014 people.
      Building permits are difficult or impossible for Palestinians to obtain in East Jerusalem or in the 60 percent of the West Bank ...
      ... under exclusive Israeli control (Area C), whereas a separate planning process readily granted settlers new construction permits.

      Israel approved donor-funded construction of 14 schools and 5 clinics for Palestinians in Area C, ...
      ... but threatened entire Palestinian communities with demolition, such as 8 villages in an area designated as a military training zone.

      Settlers continued to take over Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem, based in part on discriminatory laws that recognize Jewish ...
      ... ownership claims there from before 1948, but bar Palestinian ownership claims from that period in West Jerusalem.

      Delete
    3. "All the current troubles in the world are because of that shitty little country Israel."

      "Why should the world be in danger of World War III because of those people?"

      Delete
    4. Caught you!

      Daniel Bernard (September 13, 1941; Lyon – April 29, 2004; Paris) was a French diplomat who served as the Ambassador to the United Kingdom and Algeria

      In 2001, Daniel Bernard came to public attention when, as French Ambassador to the United Kingdom, he was quoted as saying: "All the current troubles in the world are because of that shitty little country Israel." The diplomat added, "Why should the world be in danger of World War III because of those people?"


      See!
      SEE!

      Daniel Bernard is DEAD!

      He could not have posted that!

      Delete
    5. Voices from ...
      "Beyond the Grave"

      They scare Farmer Fudd, almost as much as wolf spoor

      Delete
    6. Homes are demolished all over the world by cities, counties and municipalities.

      Tin shacks are not homes.

      Building permits are EVEN required in America. Unless you approve of Occupy Wall Street as a legit organization.

      Homelessness of the Palestinians is not an issue.

      There is no housing shWhen Palestinian businessman and developer Bashar Masri first set out to name the modern city he is building in the West Bank, he asked the community for suggestions. About a third of the entries were revolutionary names: Arafat was popular, so was Jihad. Another third were names looking towards a better future: Amal, Arabic for “hope,” came in at number one. But Masri says he didn’t want a name with a political connotation of any kind. In the end he chose to name the city Rawabi, meaning “hills.”
      The decision reflects the core of what Masri, the visionary behind the $850 million private investment project, is trying to do with Rawabi—the most far-reaching building project ever contemplated in the West Bank. From a wealthy Nablus family, Masri worked with Yasser Arafat in his youth, and was with the late PLO leader in Washington D.C. when he walked away from the Clinton peace initiative in December 2000. Yet, Masri has come to the belief that, despite politics, building constructive working relationships with Israelis is vital to building a better future for Palestinians. Today, the former political prisoner is a regular guest in the homes of top Israeli businessmen and has hired Ariel Sharon’s former chief of staff to serve as a legal advisor for the project.ortage for Arabs in the west bank.

      http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/palestine-west-bank-rawabi-city-development-infrastructure-economy-negotiations-state

      Of all these projects, none has the symbolic value of Rawabi, now billed as the gateway to the future Palestine. Builders envision 40,000 Palestinians enjoying comforts akin to a U.S. suburb instead of crowded and disorganized towns and villages with poor infrastructure. A business venture by Qatari Diar, a Qatar-based real estate developer, and Masri’s West Bank-based Massar International, the city promises 1,000 pricey deluxe units and 5,000 homes for a growing middle-income bracket that can afford monthly mortgage payments of $450 to $1,000.

      Delete
    7. 40 THOUSAND new homes...

      and America is chipping in an additional 300 million in loans for roads, schools and infrastructure.

      Delete
    8. The so-called “Palestinian autonomous areas” are Bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli Apartheid system.


      The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel’s racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Palestinian Arabs have no place in a “Jewish” state.

      Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

      Delete
    9. The United State approves of and supports the power structure that is the Israeli Apartheid System.

      That is nothing new. Funding the Palestinians directly, just another building block in the Israeli Apartheid Sysem. Now the US does not have to "add" that $300 million to the "Aid for Israel" column. When that it all that it is.

      The US should withdraw funding for all those projects, across that entire region of the world.

      Delete
  4. ISLAMABAD: Interior Minister, Chaudjry Nisar Ali Khan Saturday said the death of Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP)leader, Hakimullah Mehsud, in the US drone attack, was in fact a fatal blow to the peace process in the region, Geo News reported.

    “The identity of those killed in the drone strike was "irrelevant". The strike should not be viewed as the killing of Hakimullah Mehsud, but rather as the murder of the peace process”, said he talking to media immediately after a high-level meeting.

    Then interior minister also revealed that this news conference had been originally scheduled to announce a major development with regard to peace talks.

    "Had Mehsud not been killed I would have been making an announcement that a three-member delegation comprising Ulema (clerics) was on its way to Taliban so that they could be formally invited for negotiations", he said.

    Nisar regretted the drone strike, which killed the TTP leader, who the government was supposed to negotiate peace with, had damaged the whole process big time.

    He accused the US of "scuttling" efforts towards peace talks with the Taliban by killing the militants' leader.

    "You have scuttled it on the eve, 18 hours before a formal delegation of respected ulema (religious scholars) was to fly to Miranshah and hand over this formal invitation."

    ReplyDelete
  5. ...Gosh, what a shame, and right on the cusp of peace in our time :-D)))

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Wolf Tracks: In the Presence of Wolves

      I have never seen a gray wolf in Idaho. In five years worth of leading wolf tracking expeditions, I have heard them and smelt them, read the movements of their bodies in wolf tracks they left behind, felt the electricity of their near, but hidden, presence and sat with them in my dreams.

      As I weave these stories — my stories — I feel again in my body what I do not need (almost do not want) to see with my eyes: them.

      I could tell many stories of gray wolves.
      Stories of bodies, lean and strong, moving swiftly across the road in front of a van full of teens — five running as one, as though in slow motion.
      I could tell the story of unwavering eyes watching a group of humans kneeling close in the fragrant carpet of low-growing forest plants, or a tale of the pack alternately crouched, snarling, head-up-dominant, then feeding on the carcass of a freshly killed elk in a wide, flat meadow just off the dusty road.

      I can feel those stories beneath my skin, but they are not my own stories.

      http://www.natureskills.com/tracking/wolf-tracks/

      Delete
    2. When I travel back in my mind to the first time, I come to a moment so sharp that I can still feel the dry heat and smell the dust of the road and pines — hear the sound the river makes where it flows between jagged cliffs. It was the last day of a full week, my first, tracking gray wolves in Idaho. So full that I didn’t want or need to see any more wolf tracks — they were there and we were there and that was more than enough. The teens I was with seemed to feel the same way, content to lay half-in and half-out of the creek building dams of pebbles. We returned to the van, near which we had seen fox tracks in the early morning. I remembered thinking, when we first saw them, of the relationship between foxes and gray wolves.

      My urge to wander carried me across an uncharacteristic expanse of flat sand to the edge of the pines below the cliffs. There, I noticed large compressions like inverted cones; no clear gray wolf tracks, just the marks of something big having passed. I followed the trail heading back toward our van. When the nature of the sand changed from deep and loose to a hard crust, the gray wolf tracks themselves suddenly jumped out in relief, the shape of toes and heel pad formed by the sand grains left behind as the gray wolf placed each foot. The baking sun had not yet blended the colors of loose sand and hard sand, and the breeze had not yet altered the perfect shape of the wolf tracks, and my mind felt like it had ceased to function, unable to believe what it was seeing.

      The trail of wolf tracks led to the bank above our van where the animal had sat for a time (moments? hours?) before rising again to turn off at an angle to the woods. It was there beyond the edge of the trees, somewhere. Close and watching or moving out across the landscape; I couldn’t tell. I was pulled, by it or its energy or my own curiosity, along the trail — and then, suddenly, not. My whole body was like a spring, poised to follow, except for my heart, which turned me determinedly back toward the van. We were down to the wire, 15 minutes late in fact. We had been exactly as close as we were supposed to be.

      Delete
  6. What is "Occupation"Sat Nov 02, 12:36:00 PM EDT
    Israel should use drones and start taking out the Hamas and Fatah terrorists.

    Good idea.

    Reading quickly through the last thread, poor Whackadoodle's "personality" continues to splinter. He is even some woman at a wall now.

    Thr 'brain power' is splitting with the personality as each persona seems dumber than the last, and there was never much if any brain power in the beginning.

    What an inane and utterly stupid thread. Giant waste of time.

    And this thread too, which seems to suggest the Taliban can be negotiated to a peace deal. All these talks would/are amounting to is concession discussions.

    Game Time 2:00 pm Vandal Fans

    GO VANDALS!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What an inane and utterly stupid thread. Giant waste of time.


      ...and thanks for continuing it.

      Delete
    2. Jean de La BruyèreSat Nov 02, 01:10:00 PM EDT

      “Those who make the worst use of their time are the first to complain of its brevity.”

      Delete
    3. Deuce, that's most of your anti-israel screed...

      an inane and utterly stupid waste of time...


      Delete
    4. Now all of the Israeli First folk are concerned about time ...

      Time, they want to talk about time.

      How they are being paid for theirs, while we waste ours.

      Cute, even comical.

      Time has become the essence, it seems, of their new line of advance.

      Delete
    5. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    6. As long as you are typing rat you are not out murdering Jews...

      All is good.

      It's like "midnight basketball" for self confessed Jew hating violent folk like you....

      Delete
  7. Has our present decade long strategy brought stability to any of the countries that we have warred on?

    Has it brought us more security?

    What has it done for reinforcing the military-industrial-think tank establishment?

    Not to mention personal freedoms from an overreaching government.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Better to bow to them and pay them tribute?

      Delete
    2. No, better to distill ethanol and leave the region ...
      Lock, Stock and Barrel.

      Better to place an Arms Embargo on the region ...
      Then to allow delivery of another bullet or bomb.

      Better to withdraw from the battle, than to fight and not seek victory.

      There is no resolve to fight a war.
      No resolve to pay the costs, so we should withdraw, until we find the resolve required.

      Then the war would be over in hours.

      At no further cost, to US.
      The weapons required are in the arsenal, right now.

      Delete
    3. can't disagree with getting off the arab/opec oil

      but I'd say America should help supply arms to nations that support American values. Or at least what American values USED to be...

      Delete
  8. Whacky must have accounted for about 70% of the comments on that last thread.

    What a bore. What a bunch of piddle, piddle, piddle, as my favorite aunt used to like to say.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ...and thanks for continuing it.

      Delete
    2. “The right time is any time that one is still so lucky as to have.”

      Delete
    3. A time and a place for US foreign aid ...

      The move was publicised in a statement from Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office, the Associated Press reported. Students will receive scholarships to "engage international audiences online" and combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel, it was alleged.

      In 2012, a Palestinian-run blog reported similar arrangements between the National Union of Israeli Students and the Israeli government. Students would be paid $2,000 to post pro-Israel messages online for five hours a week.

      According to Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz, the most recent proposition is being spearheaded by Danny Seaman, who was slammed by the media for writing anti-Muslim messages on Facebook.

      Students will be organised into units at each university, with a chief co-ordinator who receives a full scholarship, three desk co-ordinators for language, graphics and research who receive lesser scholarships and students termed “activists” who will receive a “minimal scholarship”, the Independent reported.

      Delete
    4. I view my role in the shit pile that are your treads as the lysol spray...

      can't wipe away the shit that you and rat drop out your asses but i can spay and cover the smell with truth.

      Delete
    5. “There is no moral difference between a Stealth bomber and a suicide bomber. They both kill innocent people for political reasons.”

      Delete
    6. Re: minimal scholarship

      So what?

      Delete
    7. “To me the Zionists, who want to go back to the Jewish state of A.D. 70 (destruction of Jerusalem by Titus) are just as offensive as the Nazis.

      With their nosing after blood, their ancient "cultural roots," ...
      their partly canting, partly obtuse winding back of the world they are altogether a match for the National Socialists.


      That is the fantastic thing about the National Socialists,...
      that they simultaneously share in a community of ideas with Soviet Russia and with Zion.”

      ― Victor Klemperer, I Will Bear Witness: A Diary of the Nazi Years, 1933-1941

      Delete
    8. You seem to be surprised to hear that there are still problems of 1948 to be solved, the most important component of which is the right to return of Palestinian refugees.

      The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established “normally” and happened to occupy another country in 1967.

      Palestinians are not struggling for a “state” but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.

      Delete
  9. GeoTv interviewed veteran reporter Hamid Mir on the significance of the strike (Trans. USG Open Source Center):

    “If the report is true and Hakimullah Mehsud has been killed, the dialogue process, which has not formally begun, will get affected //negatively//. The Taliban were already stating that some //drama// was being staged with them in the name of talks, and now their stance will get strengthened. There were three to four groups within TTP that were opposing the talks since day one, and now their stance will become strong. However, it is a matter to ponder upon that earlier Waliur Rehman, who was in favor of talks, was killed, and now Hakimullah Mehsud, who too wanted to hold talks with the government, has been killed. A question arises why the Taliban groups or the commanders who are not in favor of talks have not been targeted so far, and their stance will further get strengthened. Hakimullah Mehsud was already wanted to have talks. As for the //deadlock// for some days, Hakimullah Mehsud had sent a hand written piece of paper to the government representatives through his messenger wherein he had expressed his willingness for talks. The two sides had also agreed on names for talks, but later attempts were made to include some people in the negotiating team about whom Hakimullah Mehsud had objections, and that was why, there was deadlock. The government, however, was continuing its efforts to start the dialogue process. And as now the process was about to begin, Hakimullah Mehsud has been attacked. If the report of his killing is correct, the process will get jolted. The TTP groups that have been continuing their attacks and oppose talks will have justification to continue their activities.

    (Memon) Mir, we would like to inform you and the viewers that Interior Minister Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan has denied to confirm the report. Only a foreign news agency is claiming about the killing of Hakimullah Mehsud. As you have told us that the local people as well as the local reporters have also not yet confirmed that TTP Chief Hakimullah Mehsud has been killed in the attack.

    (Anchor Mansoor Ali Khan) Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has paid a visit to the United States, and after that, two drone strikes have been carried out. What is the position of Pakistan now?

    (Mir) … Tariq Fatemi, special assistance to the prime minister on foreign affairs, who was also present in the prime ministera’s meeting with President Obama had confidently stated a few days ago that Obama had assured Nawaz Sharif that the United States would //review// its policy of drone strikes. But this has not happened, and two consecutive strikes have taken place. This would certainly increase political worries for Nawaz Sharif. I am telling you that there were three to four strong groups within TTP that were not in favor of talks since day one, and Hakimullah Mehsud had been continuously persuading them for talks. You would have noticed that Hakimullah Mehsud had developed some flexibility in his stance for some days. However, the two sides were not reaching agreement on the names of the negotiating team for talks because some state institutions had tried to include some people of their own liking on whom Mehsud had objections. Despite that, Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan was striving for beginning of the talks. The process had not yet begun, but efforts had been underway for a //structured dialogue//. Now the person who will have to face embarrassment the most is the prime minister.

    (Khan) Thank you very much, Mir. (end live relay)

    (Description of Source: Karachi Geo News TV in Urdu — 24-hour satellite news TV channel owned by Pakistan’s Jang publishing group. Known for providing quick and detailed reports of events. Geo’s focus on reports from India is seen as part of its policy of promoting people-to-people contact and friendly relations with India.) ”

    ReplyDelete
  10. Tariq Fatemi, special assistance to the prime minister on foreign affairs, who was also present in the prime ministera’s meeting with President Obama had confidently stated a few days ago that Obama had assured Nawaz Sharif that the United States would //review// its policy of drone strikes. But this has not happened, and two consecutive strikes have taken place. This would certainly increase political worries for Nawaz Sharif. I am telling you that there were three to four strong groups within TTP that were not in favor of talks since day one, and Hakimullah Mehsud had been continuously persuading them for talks. You would have noticed that Hakimullah Mehsud had developed some flexibility in his stance for some days. However, the two sides were not reaching agreement on the names of the negotiating team for talks because some state institutions had tried to include some people of their own liking on whom Mehsud had objections. Despite that, Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan was striving for beginning of the talks. The process had not yet begun, but efforts had been underway for a //structured dialogue//. Now the person who will have to face embarrassment the most is the prime minister.

    The strike and timing was moronic

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Review" a splendid word, with amorphous meaning.

      None of which promise action, beyond the "reviewing" of the data sets.

      Delete
    2. Wanted - Dead or Alive -

      A $5 million dollar bounty on his head.

      If the US did not want him killed, should have removed the bounty.
      If the Pakistani did not want him killed, they should have arrested him and turned him over, to US.

      That they did not, all the reason required to cut off military aid to Pakistan.

      The US should have attacked Pakistan, instead of Iraq, in 2003.
      Let 'em twist in the wind, now, while the US leaves the AO.

      Delete
    3. In AD 46-120, the first wolf bounty was reportedly opened when Solon of Athens offered five silver drachmas to any hunter for killing any male wolf, and one for ...

      Delete
  11. “It’s all fine to say, “Time will heal everything, this too shall pass away. People will forget”—and things like that when you are not involved, but when you are there is no passage of time, people do not forget and you are in the middle of something that does not change.”

    ReplyDelete
  12. “Only bad things happen quickly, . . . .

    Virtually all the happiness-producing processes in our lives take time, usually a long time: learning new things, changing old behaviors, building satisfying relationships, raising children.

    This is why patience and determination are among life’s primary virtues.

    ReplyDelete
  13. “I object to being told that I am saving daylight when my reason tells me that I am doing nothing of the kind...

    At the back of the Daylight Saving scheme, I detect the bony, blue-fingered hand of Puritanism, eager to push people into bed earlier, and get them up earlier, to make them healthy, wealthy, and wise in spite of themselves.”

    ReplyDelete

  14. “I'm open to everything. When you start to criticize the times you live in, your time is over.”

    ReplyDelete

  15. Iran's Revolutionary Guards committed to 'Death to America'
    In light of negotiations with US, conservative groups in Iran call for continued use of 'Death to America' as official slogan, celebrate anniversary of US Embassy hostage crisis
    AFP
    Published: 11.02.13, 17:55 / Israel News


    The Revolutionary Guards, the elite Iranian regime's army, said Saturday they are committed to the slogan "Death to America," chanted at official ceremonies, just days before the 34th anniversary of the storming of the American Embassy in Tehran.

    "The slogan Death to America is the symbol of strength and determination of the Iranian nation against the dominance of the United States, which is an oppressive and untrustworthy nation," said the Revolutionary Guards on their official website.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ...and we would do the same thing if a foreign power from another hemisphere was fucking us over like we do them.

      Delete
    2. Newsflash sparky the Islamic world was FUCKING us over 1st...

      Man I thought you used to be a Marine.

      Delete
    3. Nikita Khrushchev went to the UN and said the Soviets would bury US.

      Never happened.
      At that time we did have over 5,116 nuclear warheads. But then again, so did the Soviets.

      The Iranians can chant to their hearts content.
      They can jump and down.
      The can print newspapers, broadcast TV shows.
      They can do pretty much whatever they want to, as long as they leave the Straits of Hormuz open.

      Words, shouted in a foreign capital, don't mean squat, quot.

      Delete
    4. And ...
      . . . after all this time you still do not know the bios of the other characters.

      You are a sorry excuse of a college student, working for the PM of Israel.
      If you are still the "O"riginal, I'd have to say ....
      You have gotten considerably dumber, over time.

      Kind of like Fascist Fudd, in that regard

      Delete
    5. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    6. desert rat: If you are still the "O"riginal, I'd have to say ....
      You have gotten considerably dumber, over time.


      Well you do have to talk to your audience at the level they understand....

      Delete
    7. How to win friends and influence people.

      They may have that in the English section of the library.
      Ought to read it.

      I am certainly not your audience, neither is Deuce or Doug or rufus.

      You ought respect 'em, if you'd like to influence 'em.

      But, you're the college brat, not me.

      Delete
    8. Bring it up to your ESL coach, and then the adviser to the debate team.

      Tell 'em that you expect to convince people of your point by disrespecting them.

      You have to know who to attack, quot.
      The reader is never the target of the attack.

      You attacked the Jew of the world the other day, for not being sufficently afraid of Iran, and today you disrespect your audience.

      Youth and inexperience, it's showing. "O"riginal would never have made such a slip. He was CUSTOMER oriented, always and above all else. Even in his choice of weapons, it was always as a trader, never as a marksman or a logistical support perspective.

      You disrespect the customer, the audience, the reader. Never a good thing.

      You will be foolish, wasting your time, if you do not learn something from this, child.

      Delete
  16. Re: wolves in Idaho

    Neighbor about two miles from myself has now lost four cattle and one horse to them. He has seen them too. As have two other neighbors out that way. I don't get out there much any longer but I have pictures of wolf footprints in some soft earth right on my place. Dozens of others have similar testimonies.

    You ain't lookin' hard enough.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We are thinking of putting up some trail cams out there but it will probably be next spring when we do so. Since I know their travel route I'm certain I will get some pictures sooner or later.

      Just the other day I dropped a copy of the wolf prints off to the nice lady who prepped me for my colonoscopy, who lives out that way and has seen one herself.

      Delete
    2. .

      Hell, you wouldn't know a wolf if it came up and pissed on your leg. Next, you'll be posting pictures of the neighbor's collie and telling us it is a dire wolf.

      By the way, do you know how many people have seen bigfoot?

      Come back when you've got something interesting like the time you were probed by aliens.

      .

      Delete
  17. DeuceSat Nov 02, 01:07:00 PM EDT
    What an inane and utterly stupid thread. Giant waste of time.


    ...and thanks for continuing it.


    Tell it to rat.

    Game Time: one hour Vandal Fans

    GO VANDALS!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. George S. Patton Jr.Sat Nov 02, 05:01:00 PM EDT

      “Anyone in any walk of life who is content with mediocrity is untrue to himself and to American tradition.”

      Delete
  18. For what it's worth -


    Panetta: US may have to use military force against Iran By MAYA SHWAYDER, JERUSALEM POST CORRESPONDENT
    11/01/2013 16:53

    Select Language​▼
    "We have to remain strong," says former US secretary of defense. Leon Panetta.
    Leon Panetta. Photo: REUTERS
    NEW YORK -- Addressing the Anti-Defamation League's 100th annual meeting on Thursday night, former US secretary of defense and CIA director Leon Panetta told the ballroom of around 600 people that while the US has "implemented unprecedented sanctions and pressure on Iran, we may very well have to use military force to back up our policy."

    US president Barack Obama has often said that "all options are on the table" when it comes to negotiating over Iran's nuclear program. Panetta, who was receiving the ADL's William and Naomi Gorowitz Institute Service Award, said the US needs to "maintain a healthy skepticism" when negotiating to suss out Iran's true level of commitment to the process.

    Related:
    White House urges Jewish leaders not to lobby for new Iran sanctions
    Biden, Kerry push US Senate to delay new sanctions on Iran
    "It is the Supreme Leader who is key, and he is not likely to give up enrichment," Panetta warned. "We have to remain strong. We have to remain consistent."

    Panetta reemphasized the American line that the US has "no friend, no better ally in the world than Israel," but he expressed concern over the "growing sense of isolationism in this country [the US]" over the last ten years of fighting two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the shifting power dynamics among world leaders. "The fact remains that we live in a very dangerous world," he said. "We continue to have threats from North Korea as they test nuclear weapons. We have instability and fragility in the Middle East. All of this happens at a time when we are imperiled by gridlock in Washington."

    Panetta devoted part of his speech to tearing down DC's leaders over the recent government shutdown and the budget sequester. "If you ask me what biggest threat to national security is today," he continued, "it is fact that our political leaders cannot come together to deal with this nation's problems. This is time when must maintain military strength and our role in the world as a world leader. We cannot retreat from the responsibilities that US has in the world today."

    Panetta was introduced by current secretary of defense Chuck Hagel, who expressed his admiration for his predecessor, and similarly indicated his support for maintaining a firm hand with Iran, while at the same exploring further diplomatic options.

    "We are testing Iranian intentions for diplomatic solutions," he said. "When we engage Iran along with our partners, we are clear-eyed about the reality in the Middle East. Iran is a state sponsor of terror,…but foreign policy is not a zero-sum game."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hagel advocated for exploring more ways to resolve disputes, and tried to soothe any audience members concerned that diplomacy would lead nowhere. "Engagement is not appeasement, nor is it containment," he said. "We know what those are, we know where they lead, and we will not pursue them. And President Obama has repeatedly made clear that words are not enough. Action must match words."

      Hagel also announced that the US would be selling Israel six new V-22 tiltrotor helicopters, and he recognized the "challenges" on Israel's borders given the crises in Egypt and Syria. "There are no margins for Israel," Hagel said.

      The other big headliner of the first day of the meeting was UN ambassador Samantha Power, who received a gift from ADL national director Abe Foxman: a book with the word "Jew" written in it six million times, as a tribute to her work in the field of genocide, Foxman said.

      Power spoke about the importance of ADL and lauded Foxman for his leadership. "When most leaders speak, people listen. When Abe Foxman speaks - what other choice do we have?" she joked.

      She went on to address the collaboration between the US and Israeli missions at the UN, and vowed to continue working to expand Israel's role. "I have made it a priority … to oppose every example of anti-Israeli bias in the UN system," Power said. "On my watch, we will push ceaselessly for the further inclusion of Israel in regional groups. We will demand objectivity in resolutions affecting Middle East peace. …There is no basis to exclude Israel from full participation in the United Nations system."

      Delete
    2. All Israel has to do ...
      Come into Compliance with UN Security Council Resolutions.
      To include United Nations Security Council Resolution 242

      Delete
    3. .

      Panetta is a liar who walks the party line. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

      .

      Delete
    4. All Hamas and Fatah must do for peace is stop the attacks on Jews and recognize a perpetual Jewish homeland.

      Resolution 242 does not set fixed boundaries, by the way. Those who wrote the document purposefully, conspicuously, and after much deliberation, omitted the use of the word "all".

      Were I negotiating for Israel, I would insist on using the only document that carries the full weight of law, the 1922 resolution. See map below for the boundaries set out for Israel at that time (talking about getting cheated).

      http://www.mythsandfacts.org/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/mandate_for_palestine.htm.

      Delete
  19. What is "Occupation"Sat Nov 02, 02:41:00 PM EDT
    I view my role in the shit pile that are your treads as the lysol spray...

    can't wipe away the shit that you and rat drop out your asses but i can spay and cover the smell with truth.


    Deuce posts, rat composts.

    heh :)

    As to rat, your efforts have born fruit. And rat is the main problems here. Quirk is right, rat has lost. Nobody takes him seriously any longer. No cred left, only crude crud. He is talking to himself back and forth under his now nearly uncountable ailases. Keep up the good work. Much appreciated by many more than you might imagine.

    DEATH TO GRAY WOLVES! SAVE OUR REMAINING ELK HERDS! SUPPORT OUR RANCHERS - SHOOT WOLVES ON SIGHT - SSS

    Now getting set for the game. Exciting to me anyway. This may be the last of our big losing years for awhile.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Teresita RedingerSat Nov 02, 12:53:00 PM EDT
    Yeah, you're a real big walking advertisement for Israeli friendship, WiO.


    Ms t, you are partially correct. You are not, nor have you ever been a FRIEND of Israel.

    Nor has Deuce or Rat or Rufus.

    So excuse me, those that seek to delegitimize, tear down, defame or libel the Jewish people, Israel or Zionism? Are ENEMIES of the same.

    My purpose here is not MAKE friends for Israel, rather to shine a light on the cockroaches that hate Jews, Israel, Judaism or Zionism.

    Maybe you just not as smart as you tell us you are...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Untrue, quot.

      Back in the Belmont Club days I was a "friend" of Israel.
      Thought that one of the reasons to take out Saddam, he paid $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers, in Israel.

      Yep, as Ash related the other day, I thought the Israeli should just push those Palestinian folk into the Sinai, not ask Mubarak for permission to do it.

      You can't remember Deuces bio, you don't know shit.

      It was "O"riginal and allen and some of the other Israel First folk that set me to investigating the reality of our "51st" State.

      But once the initial investigation was made, the scab was off.
      Leon Uris was no longer my main reference for things Israeli.

      When introduced to Israeli supporters, their propaganda and lies, well I came to despise those fuckin' fascists.

      Now to learn that the Blood Right hereditary claim is pure myth, that the Ashkenazi have no hereditary claims o the Middle East, well, there goes the ball game.

      Delete
    2. Was that before or after Belmont threw you off?

      Delete
    3. Interesting how you ignore the millions of jews from Israel and north Africa that are NOT Ashkenazi.

      Regardless, you at least now honest in being a anti-semite.

      And as such?

      you define yourself as a cockroach.

      Delete
    4. No I do not ignore those other tribes of Judaism.
      But ....
      They were not the ones who founded the state of Israel.
      They were not the ones who funded the state of Israel.
      They are not part of the ruling junta of the state of Israel.

      Delete
    5. Those other Jewish tribes just the poor people that were forced to abandon their family homes, their lives, and pay the price when the Ashkenazi established their Europeon colony in Palestine.

      Those other Jewish tribes had lived for over a millennium in and amongst the Muslims, before the Ashkenazi engulfed Palestine.

      Delete
    6. ... at their peak in 1931, Ashkenazi Jews accounted for 92 percent of the world's Jews.

      Figures vary for the contemporary statistics.
      Some sources place Ashkenazi as making up approximately 83-85 percent of Jews worldwide
      - wiki

      Delete
  21. Is Norway’s Slow TV Phenomenon The Future Of Reality Programming? 9-Hour Knitting Contests, 8-Hour Train Rides

    By NANCY TARTAGLIONE, International Editor | Friday, 1 November 2013 19:15 UK
    Tags: LMNO Productions, National Knitting Evening, Norway, NRK, Slow TV


    Knit one, purl … eight-plus hours of live stitching? That’s what’s happening tonight on Norwegian public broadcaster NRK2 as folks around the country gather in viewing parties. The show is part of a phenomenon known as Slow TV which has increasingly captivated Norway. The overall gist of the concept, to which LMNO Productions recently acquired U.S. rights, is a hybrid of unhurried documentary coupled with hours and hours of continuous coverage provided by fixed cameras trained on a subject or an event. Prior to tonight, those have included a 7.5-hour train journey, a 134-hour coastal cruise, a stack of firewood and salmon. Tonight, NRK2 will turn its lens on National Knitting Evening. Four hours of discussion on the popular pastime will kick off at 8 PM local, before a sheep gets trotted out at midnight to be sheared and its wool spun into yarn. Making Knitting Evening sound like a breathless frenzy of activity compared to some earlier Slow TV ventures, seven spinners and knitters will then hunker down to stitch a large men’s sweater in an attempt to break a Guinness world record — for speed, no less. NRK programming executive Rune Moklebust tells me the four-hour and 51-minute record will be “hard to break, but we’ll broadcast until the (sweater) is finished.” Moklebust is confident folks will stick with it through the wee hours, “like they’re waiting for election results.”

    http://www.deadline.com/2013/11/slow-tv-norwegian-phenomenon-continues-with-9-hour-%E2%80%98national-knitting-evening%E2%80%99-norway-nrk-lmno/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Rune Moklebust - come on now, laugh a little - that's a heck of a great name.

      >>>Moklebust is confident folks will stick with it through the wee hours, “like they’re waiting for election results.”<<<

      Will be more exciting than a Vandal game where we already know the winner.

      Delete
    2. George S. Patton Jr.Sat Nov 02, 05:16:00 PM EDT

      “Anyone in any walk of life who is content with mediocrity is untrue to himself and to American tradition.”

      Delete
  22. TSU 7
    Idaho 0

    Fumbled away the first possession and Bobcats go in from the one yard line.

    Yiipppeee, off to Great Start on this Dad's Day Weekend folks.

    Texas State is playing for a bowl eligibility position today, big incentive for them, not that they need any.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Age of Miracles is not over,folks!!!!!!!.......Vandals pass long, ball is ricocheted twice to an unintended receiver by the end zone.

      Vandals score!

      TSU 7
      Idaho 7

      Our SuperSecret Divine Intervention Play

      Delete
    2. TSU 37
      Idaho 21

      Final

      Idaho played better than expected,

      Delete
  23. Just another day in the life of the poor bastards that happen to have Israel as a neighbor

    Occupation harshness must end. Israel must be held responsible for its crimes.

    Its officials must be “prosecute(d) in international judicial institutions for committing the most horrific and inhumane crimes against” young children, youths and adults.

    Their crime is wanting to live free like Jews. Their greatest wish is freedom from fear. Their hope is growing up to something better than now.

    They wonder if they’ll live long enough to see it. They’re uncertain each day if they’ll see another. Life in Occupied Palestine is nightmarish.

    In September, Israeli soldiers murdered five Palestinian civilians. Multiple community incursions occur daily.

    Homes are broken into violently. They’re ransacked. Personal possessions are trashed. They’re damaged or destroyed. Some items are stolen.

    Families are terrorized. Children are traumatized. Arrests, interrogations, torture and detentions follow. Children are treated like adults.

    According to the Ahrar Center for Prisoners Studies and Human Rights, Israel arrested 325 Palestinians in September. It did so lawlessly.

    Seventeen children under age 15 were targeted. Two women were arrested. Three journalists were kidnapped. So were Palestinian legislators Nazzal Ramadan and Maher Bader.

    Near daily arrests persist coincidentally with Israel’s sham prisoner releases. Anyone freed is vulnerable to rearrest. Israel treats nonviolent Palestinians like terrorists. Rogue states operate that way.

    Late Thursday, Israeli tanks, armored personnel carriers and soldiers invaded Gaza. Attack helicopters accompanies them.

    Allegedly it was to destroy part of a tunnel network discovered earlier. These type attacks occur often. Any pretext or none at all justifies them. Lawless aggression defines Israeli policy.

    Members of Israel’s ruthless Golani Brigade led Thursday’s assault. In early 1948, David Ben-Gurion formed it. He did so to ethnically cleanse Palestine.

    Ariel Sharon was one of its first commanders. Golani forces are infamous. They’re cutthroat killers. According to a former unnamed Israeli soldier:

    They include “psychopaths, the poor, orphans, Israelis who live in small towns, immigrants, illiterates, people with mental problems, drug and alcohol abusers, and people with criminal records.”

    They’re responsible for some of the worst abuses against Palestinian civilians. They include violent home invasions, unprovoked attacks, physical beatings, cold blooded murder, assaults on women and children, and numerous other human rights violations.

    Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak once called the IDF “the most moral army in the world.” Daily atrocities prove otherwise.

    On Friday, Israeli warplanes bombed southern Gaza. Three Hamas Qassam Brigade members were killed. Their bodies were found dismembered.

    On Thursday, Israeli artillery killed a Palestinian youth. Another was wounded. The IDF targeted an area east of Khan Yunis’ refugee camp.

    Last Monday, Israeli warplanes struck an area northwest of Gaza City. Missiles were fired near Mawkusi towers. No casualties were reported.

    Palestinians live in a virtual war zone. Israeli ground or air attacks can come any time for any reason or none at all.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. “The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law and particularly to deny him the judgement of his peers is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist.”

      Delete
    2. Neville ChamberlainSat Nov 02, 07:31:00 PM EDT

      Three Cheers For Winston Churchill!

      Hip, Hip Hooray!
      Hip, Hip Hooray!
      Hip, Hip Hooray!

      Delete
    3. The Coptic and Maronite Christians are not blessed with a military capable of protecting them. Israel does not suffer this disability.

      FYI: If you are utes approaching Israeli troops trying to treat and evacuate five of their wounded, leave the rocket launcher and rifles at home.

      Meanwhile, Israel's mercenaries, the Egyptians, keep the border sealed.

      “When it is asked what is meant by the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance.”

      Winston Churchill
      British Secretary of State for the Colonies
      June 1922

      Delete
    4. Good on ya, Winnie.

      Delete
    5. They did not know about DNA and genetic tracking, in 1922.

      In 2012 we know that the center of Judaism was Eastern Europe, not the Middle East, certainly not in Palestine.
      The "Jewish Colony" should have been in a portion of Poland, not a portion of Palestine.

      Delete
    6. End the OccupationSat Nov 02, 08:31:00 PM EDT

      The Ashkenazi colonialists have been continually expanding their sovereign territory.
      From the original 1948 portion to the 1967 Annexations and sovereignty over the Occupied Palestinian Territories

      The state controls the territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, ruling over eight million rights-bearing citizens (75% of whom are Jews) and four million Palestinian subjects denied civil and political rights. Millions of Palestinian refugees (who were born in the territory or whose direct ancestors were) cannot set foot in their homeland, let alone determine its political future as citizens.

      Delete
    7. http://www.mythsandfacts.org/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/mandate_for_palestine.htm

      Map of original mandate 1922

      Delete
    8. Ah the innocent Palestinians, just trying to pick olives and live a happy life... Harassed and tortured by Israel... Yawn.

      Excuse me while I laugh...

      Talk about bullshit...

      But it's YOUR bullshit.

      In the end the ONLY safe place for arabs in the middle east? Is in Israel..

      Now if you are an arab ANYWHERE else? you are a pawn to be used by the petty dictators that rule the clans, tribes and villages of the arab world.

      Delete
    9. "We" You have a mouse in your pocket. You have one or two sources whose hypotheses have not yet been tested. What you have, then, is nothing.

      It was NEVER their homeland. Read or listen to their names. They were tenant or migratory farm labor, drawn to Jewish settlements by the wages and living conditions, but they owned not so much as a square meter of the land.

      Delete
    10. By the way, if Arabs had lived in Palestine for centuries in large numbers, where are their mosques or the ruins of their mosques? There are literally hundreds of ruined synagogues all over the Middle East, but few mosques...Hmm...

      Delete
  24. http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-attacks-syria-and-gaza/5356520

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. “The real division is not between conservatives and revolutionaries but between authoritarians and libertarians.”

      Delete
    2. Israel is a nation, it is a member of the UN. Gaza is not. When the terrorist enclave of gaza tunnels into Israel to kidnap and murder, when Hamas shoots rockets into Israel? Expect Israel to smack the cockroaches.

      When Syria (Iran) tries to import rockets into Hezbollah controlled lands of southern Lebanon it is perfectly LEGAL to destroy those rockets. There already is a state of war between Lebanon, Syria and Israel.

      Sorry Israel will not lay down and die for your pleasure...

      Delete
    3. Exactly the point, quot.
      Gaza i not a nation.
      Israel is and is sovereign over Gaza.

      Israel fulfills EVERY aspect of sovereignty over Gaza.
      It controls the borders, it controls the air space, it provides water and power.
      Gaza is part of Israel.
      Israel does not manage it well.

      Delete

    4. As to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, there is an additional factor. The so-called “Palestinian autonomous areas” are Bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli Apartheid system.

      Delete

  25. “We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”

    ReplyDelete
    Replies

    1. "Private property was the original source of freedom. 
      It still is its main bulwark." 

      Delete
    2. Some people talk of morality, and some of religion, but give me a little snug property.

      Delete
    3. Finally!

      Couple of good political quotes by Walter and Maria.

      Delete
    4. Nelson MandelaSat Nov 02, 07:34:00 PM EDT

      “We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.”


      The Palestinians are free. They are just not free to murder. Property disputes between nations do not constitute denial of freedom. The are free to leave the West Bank, they are free to own property but they are not free to slit the throats of the Jews, EVEN IF THERE IS A PROPERTY DISPUTE.

      Delete
    5. The Ottoman Empire owned the Middle East for 400 years. The Sultan held title to much of the land, with large absentee landlords owning much of the rest. Both the Sultan and his court permitted tenants at will to use their lands for rent. Bedouins were landless, depending for sustenance on annual harvest time raids on the small scattered villages throughout the region. Private property, as that entails real property, on the whole would have been almost nonexistent.

      Delete
    6. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    7. You are making a case for what, the ...

      Sultanate of Israel?

      Land reform should a major piece of the negotiations, that is if there were real negotiations and not Kabuki theater with Israel attempting to dictate terms to their Arab houseboys. Terms that all the Parties to the negotiations know are non-starters.
      While the status que of the Israeli Apartheid Systems continues to operate.

      The first item on the negotiation table ... The legitimacy of the state of Israel.
      2. It's status as a "Jewish" state.
      3. Right of return to all Palestinians and prodigy from the 1948 conflict
      4. Immediate implementation of UNSC Resolution 242.

      Delete

    8. It's progeny.

      It will never happen.

      Law and Order. is my case. The Arabs refused to play by the rules and lost repeatedly...tough...I know the goy came to believe that any deal made with the Jew was merely advisory (that's our bad)..That time has long past. Jews purchased hundreds of thousands of acres. So keen was our desire that an acre of desert waste sold for $1,100/acre at a time when deep, rich, black earth acreage in Iowa sold for $100.00/acre. We have the deeds to prove it and we have a military to back up our claims. Then came the intervention of the UK, to wit:

      “When it is asked what is meant by the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance.”

      Winston Churchill
      British Secretary of State for the Colonies
      June 1922

      You don't get to change the rules just because you are dealing with "the offspring of pigs and monkeys, "dirty" Jews. It doesn't work that way any more. You want Israel, come and take it. NEVER AGAIN!

      Delete
    9. .

      Israel is a state. It became a state by force of arms and it remains a state by force of arms. Everything else is irrelevant. Quoting ancient documents that did not carry the force of law but merely offered statements of intent are meaningless. As are suggestions that purchasing a piece of property in Palestine is any different than purchasing a piece of property in Idaho.

      .

      Delete
    10. Purchasing a piece of property in Palestine has the same force of law as purchasing property in Idaho. I will grant that the consequences may be completely different, but being a Westerner, I insist on the sanctity of contracts. Without that, we are no better than our adversaries.

      Israel was granted its status as a home for the Jewish people long before the UN signed off on the enabling documents. Churchill stated the case powerfully and I will stick with that.

      When the Arabs decided to destroy the new state of Israel rather than accept the finding of the UN, Israel defended herself.

      Delete
    11. long "passed" :-)

      The dust ups we have here are of little worth in so far as advancing peace. I use as an opportunity to brush up on my history and rhetoric. To me that makes them invaluable.

      Delete
    12. That is an opinion.

      http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/1000-intellectuals-from-30-countries-protest-eu-settlements-boycott/2013/08/01/
      1,000 Intellectuals from 30 Countries Protest EU Settlements Boycott

      Lawyers: EU Has No Right to Determine Israel’s Borders (VIDEO)
      http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/08/02/lawyers-eu-has-no-right-to-determine-israel%E2%80%99s-borders-video/

      Much more could be written but I see no good reason to trouble myself. My statements have the benefit of history, law, and intellectual analysis. Those who disagree with me have nothing beyond bigotry and bile (I do not include you in this assessment). Even if I disagree with you, I cannot fault your methodology and intellectual integrity.

      Best

      Delete
    13. .

      In this case, I must disagree.

      See my rather long post near the end of this stream. WiO responded to it.

      .

      Delete
    14. .

      QuirkSun Nov 03, 12:54:00 AM EDT

      .

      Delete
  26. They lit their cigarettes and turned to the right. After a pause Stephen began:

    -- Aristotle has not defined pity and terror. I have. I say Lynch halted and said bluntly:

    -- Stop! I won't listen! I am sick. I was out last night on a yellow drunk with Horan and Goggins.

    Stephen went on:

    -- Pity is the feeling which arrests the mind in the presence of whatsoever is grave and constant in human sufferings and unites it with the human sufferer. Terror is the feeling which arrests the mind in the presence of whatsoever is grave and constant in human sufferings and unites it with the secret cause.

    -- Repeat, said Lynch.

    Stephen repeated the definitions slowly.

    -- A girl got into a hansom a few days ago, he went on, in London. She was on her way to meet her mother whom she had not seen for many years. At the corner of a street the shaft of a lorry shivered the window of the hansom in the shape of a star. A long fine needle of the shivered glass pierced her heart. She died on the instant. The reporter called it a tragic death. It is not. It is remote from terror and pity according to the terms of my definitions.

    -- The tragic emotion, in fact, is a face looking two ways, towards terror and towards pity, both of which are phases of it. You see I use the word arrest. I mean that the tragic emotion is static. Or rather the dramatic emotion is. The feelings excited by improper art are kinetic, desire or loathing. Desire urges us to possess, to go to something; loathing urges us to abandon, to go from something. The arts which excite them, pornographical or didactic, are therefore improper arts. The esthetic emotion (I used the general term) is therefore static. The mind is arrested and raised above desire and loathing.

    -- You say that art must not excite desire, said Lynch. I told you that one day I wrote my name in pencil on the backside of the Venus of Praxiteles in the Museum. Was that not desire?

    -- I speak of normal natures, said Stephen. You also told me that when you were a boy in that charming carmelite school you ate pieces of dried cowdung.

    Lynch broke again into a whinny of laughter and again rubbed both his hands over his groins but without taking them from his pockets.

    ReplyDelete
  27. End the OccupationSat Nov 02, 08:41:00 PM EDT

    Ethnic Cleansing by Bureaucracy: Israel’s policy of destroying Palestinian homes
    Institute for Middle East Understanding on October 3, 2013


    Ethnic Cleansing by Bureaucracy: Israel’s policy of destroying Palestinian homes
    Institute for Middle East Understanding on October 3, 2013 4

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    Last week, as negotiations continued between Israeli and Palestinian officials, both Human Rights Watch and the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) issued statements condemning Israel’s ongoing destruction of Palestinian homes and other structures, particularly in the occupied West Bank and the Negev desert in southern Israel. Israel’s policy of destroying Palestinian homes, usually under the pretext of demolishing structures built without permission from Israeli authorities, is a highly sensitive subject for Palestinians, as home demolitions have played a central role in Israel’s attempts to dispossess the native, non-Jewish Palestinian population of Israel and the occupied territories since the creation of the state in 1948.

    Underpinning most home demolitions is Israel’s strategic goal of limiting the non-Jewish Palestinian population, or removing it altogether, from areas of the occupied territories and Israel proper. In particular, Israel wants to cement its hold over occupied East Jerusalem and the Jordan Valley in the West Bank, and to “Judaize” East Jerusalem and areas such as the Negev desert in southern Israel. Other bureaucratic tools used to achieve this goal include: the revocation of residency rights for Palestinians in East Jerusalem; evictions of Palestinians from their homes and land; and severe restrictions on the ability of non-Jewish citizens to own and rent land in Israel, and of Palestinians to build in the 60% of the West Bank under complete Israeli control according to the terms of the Oslo Accords.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. End the OccupationSat Nov 02, 08:42:00 PM EDT

      The Occupied Territories

      Since militarily occupying the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza in 1967, Israeli authorities have demolished tens of thousands of Palestinian structures using three bureaucratic justifications: Military necessity; to punish or deter militants (an act of collective punishment, and therefore a war crime); and to destroy structures built without permission from Israeli authorities.

      In occupied East Jerusalem and the approximately 60% of the West Bank over which Israel retains total control under the terms of the Oslo Accords, it is nearly impossible for Palestinians to get permission to build new homes or additions to old ones. According to Human Rights Watch’s 2012 World Report: “Israel usually carries out demolitions on the grounds that the structures were built without permits, but in practice such permits are almost impossible for Palestinians to obtain in Israeli-controlled areas.”
      While making it almost impossible for Palestinians to build homes or other structures in East Jerusalem and most of the West Bank, Israel actively encourages the building of Jewish settlements in these areas, often tacitly supporting the creation of so-called “outposts,” built in violation not only of international law, but Israeli law as well.

      Delete
    2. End the OccupationSat Nov 02, 08:44:00 PM EDT

      Israel

      Inside Israel’s pre-1967 borders, authorities carry out home demolitions against Palestinian citizens of the state in cities such as Ramle and Lyd (Lod), and in villages that are “unrecognized” by the Israeli government.
      While Palestinian Arabs comprise approximately 20% of the population of Israel, as non-Jews they are confined by law and zoning policies to just 3.5% of the land.

      Approximately 100,000 internal refugees from Israel’s creation in 1948 live in more than 100 “unrecognized villages” near their original homes, destroyed in 1948, where they “suffer from inadequate living conditions and constant threats of demolition,” according to the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD).
      There are currently entire Bedouin villages in the Negev desert, numbering as many as 70,000 people in total, which are threatened with demolition under the so-called “Prawer Plan.” If carried out, Prawer would result in the largest displacement of Palestinian citizens of Israel since the 1950s, shortly after the state was created.

      Delete
    3. End the OccupationSat Nov 02, 08:48:00 PM EDT

      Home Demolitions: By the Numbers

      Since 1967, Israel has destroyed approximately 27,000 Palestinian structures in the occupied territories (the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip), including more than 24,000 homes, according to ICAHD.
      Since the renewal of negotiations in August 2013, Israel has destroyed approximately 25 Palestinian homes, in addition to dozens of other structures, leaving approximately 200 people homeless.

      According to the UN, between January and September 2013, 862 Palestinians were displaced by Israeli demolitions, compared to 886 (including 468 children) in all of 2012.

      In 2012, a total of 600 Palestinian structures were demolished by Israel in the occupied territories, including at least 189 homes, according to ICAHD. This figure doesn’t include “self-demolitions” whereby Palestinians destroy their own homes rather than have Israel do it and charge them an additional fine.


      One Bedouin village, Al-Araqib, in the Negev desert in the south of Israel, has been destroyed more than 50 times by Israel since July 2010.

      Between 2005 and 2012, Israel demolished approximately 1500 Palestinian homes due to owners lacking hard-to-obtain construction permits.

      Between 1993 and 2000, when the Oslo Accords were being negotiated between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, Israel destroyed almost 1700 Palestinian homes in the occupied territories.

      Immediately following Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza in 1967, approximately 6000 Palestinian homes were demolished, including four entire villages in the Latrun area, along with dozens of homes in the Mughrabi Quarter of Jerusalem’s Old City, which were destroyed to make way for a plaza for the Western Wall. In 1971, between 2000 and 6000 Palestinian homes were destroyed in Gaza in an effort to pacify the newly occupied territory.

      During Israel’s creation (1948-49), Zionist and then Israeli forces expelled approximately 750,000 Palestinian Arabs from their ancestral lands in order to create a Jewish majority state of Israel. In the process, more than 400 Palestinian population centers were systematically destroyed, including thousands of homes, businesses, and houses of worship. (See here for more on the Nakba.)

      Delete
    4. End the OccupationSat Nov 02, 08:48:00 PM EDT
      Home Demolitions: By the Numbers

      Since 1967, Israel has destroyed approximately 27,000 Palestinian structures in the occupied territories (the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip), including more than 24,000 homes, according to ICAHD.
      Since the renewal of negotiations in August 2013, Israel has destroyed approximately 25 Palestinian homes, in addition to dozens of other structures, leaving approximately 200 people homeless.

      According to the UN, between January and September 2013, 862 Palestinians were displaced by Israeli demolitions, compared to 886 (including 468 children) in all of 2012.


      850,000 Jews were displaced by the arabs from 1948-1967, more than 200,000 jewish homes were stolen by the arabs.

      Delete
    5. What happened outside of Palestine is a separate issue.

      Those thefts not committed by the Palestinians being punished for it.
      Separate issues, entirely.
      Not to be conflated.
      Different INDIVIDUALS in each locale are responsible, only for their own actions.

      According to Article 4 of he Geneva Accords.
      To which Israel is signatory. Signing-on in 1951.

      Delete
  28. -- O, I did! I did! he cried.

    Stephen turned towards his companion and looked at him for a moment boldly in the eyes. Lynch, recovering from his laughter, answered his look from his humbled eyes. The long slender flattened skull beneath the long pointed cap brought before Stephen's mind the image of a hooded reptile. The eyes, too, were reptile-like in glint and gaze. Yet at that instant, humbled and alert in their look, they were lit by one tiny human point, the window of a shrivelled soul, poignant and self-embittered.

    -- As for that, Stephen said in polite parenthesis, we are all animals. I also am an animal.

    -- You are, said Lynch.

    -- But we are just now in a mental world, Stephen continued. The desire and loathing excited by improper esthetic means are really not esthetic emotions not only because they are kinetic in character but also because they are not more than physical. Our flesh shrinks from what it dreads and responds to the stimulus of what it desires by a purely reflex action of the nervous system. Our eyelid closes before we are aware that the fly is about to enter our eye.

    -- Not always, said Lynch critically.

    -- In the same way, said Stephen, your flesh responded to the stimulus of a naked statue, but it was, I say, simply a reflex action of the nerves. Beauty expressed by the artist cannot awaken in us an emotion which is kinetic or a sensation which is purely physical. It awakens, or ought to awaken, or induces, or ought to induce, an esthetic stasis, an ideal pity or an ideal terror, a stasis called forth, prolonged, and at last dissolved by what I call the rhythm of beauty.

    -- What is that exactly? asked Lynch.

    -- Rhythm, said Stephen, is the first formal esthetic relation of part to part in any esthetic whole or of an esthetic whole to its part or parts or of any part to the esthetic whole of which it is a part.

    -- If that is rhythm, said Lynch, let me hear what you call beauty; and, please remember, though I did eat a cake of cowdung once, that I admire only beauty.

    Stephen raised his cap as if in greeting. Then, blushing slightly, he laid his hand on Lynch's thick tweed sleeve.

    --We are right, he said, and the others are wrong. To speak of these things and to try to understand their nature and, having understood it, to try slowly and humbly and constantly to express, to press out again, from the gross earth or what it brings forth, from sound and shape and colour which are the prison gates of our soul, an image of the beauty we have come to understand - that is art.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They had reached the canal bridge and, turning from their course, went on by the trees. A crude grey light, mirrored in the sluggish water and a smell of wet branches over their heads seemed to war against the course of Stephen's thought.

      -- But you have not answered my question, said Lynch. What is art? What is the beauty it expresses?

      -- That was the first definition I gave you, you sleepy-headed wretch, said Stephen, when I began to try to think out the matter for myself. Do you remember the night? Cranly lost his temper and began to talk about Wicklow bacon.

      -- I remember, said Lynch. He told us about them flaming fat devils of pigs.

      -- Art, said Stephen, is the human disposition of sensible or intelligible matter for an esthetic end. You remember the pigs and forget that. You are a distressing pair, you and Cranly.

      Lynch made a grimace at the raw grey sky and said:

      -- If I am to listen to your esthetic philosophy give me at least another cigarette. I don't care about it. I don't even care about women. Damn you and damn everything. I want a job of five hundred a year. You can't get me one.

      Stephen handed him the packet of cigarettes. Lynch took the last one that remained, saying simply:

      -- Proceed!

      -- Aquinas, said Stephen, says that is beautiful the apprehension of which pleases.

      Lynch nodded.

      -- I remember that, he said, Pulcra sunt quae visa placent. - He uses the word visa, said Stephen, to cover esthetic apprehensions of all kinds, whether through sight or hearing or through any other avenue of apprehension. This word, though it is vague, is clear enough to keep away good and evil which excite desire and loathing. It means certainly a stasis and not a kinesis. How about the true? It produces also a stasis of the mind. You would not write your name in pencil across the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle.

      Delete
    2. -- No, said Lynch, give me the hypotenuse of the Venus of Praxiteles.

      -- Static therefore, said Stephen. Plato, I believe, said that beauty is the splendour of truth. I don't think that it has a meaning, but the true and the beautiful are akin. Truth is beheld by the intellect which is appeased by the most satisfying relations of the intelligible; beauty is beheld by the imagination which is appeased by the most satisfying relations of the sensible. The first step in the direction of truth is to understand the frame and scope of the intellect itself, to comprehend the act itself of intellection. Aristotle's entire system of philosophy rests upon his book of psychology and that, I think, rests on his statement that the same attribute cannot at the same time and in the same connexion belong to and not belong to the same subject. The first step in the direction of beauty is to understand the frame and scope of the imagination, to comprehend the act itself of esthetic apprehension. Is that clear?

      -- But what is beauty? asked Lynch impatiently. Out with another definition. Something we see and like! Is that the best you and Aquinas can do?

      -- Let us take woman, said Stephen. -- Let us take her! said Lynch fervently. -- The Greek, the Turk, the Chinese, the Copt, the Hottentot, said Stephen, all admire a different type of female beauty. That seems to be a maze out of which we cannot escape. I see, however, two ways out. One is this hypothesis: that every physical quality admired by men in women is in direct connexion with the manifold functions of women for the propagation of the species. It may be so. The world, it seems, is drearier than even you, Lynch, imagined. For my part I dislike that way out. It leads to eugenics rather than to esthetic. It leads you out of the maze into a new gaudy lecture-room where MacCann, with one hand on The Orion of Species and the other hand on the new testament, tells you that you admired the great flanks of Venus because you felt that she would bear you burly offspring and admired her great breasts because you felt that she would give good milk to her children and yours.

      -- Then MacCann is a sulphur-yellow liar, said Lynch energetically.

      -- There remains another way out, said Stephen, laughing.

      -- To wit? said Lynch.

      -- This hypothesis, Stephen began.

      A long dray laden with old iron came round the corner of Sir Patrick Dun's hospital covering the end of Stephen's speech with the harsh roar of jangled and rattling metal. Lynch closed his ears and gave out oath after oath till the dray had passed. Then he turned on his heel rudely. Stephen turned also and waited for a few moments till his companion's ill-humour had had its vent.

      Delete
    3. -- This hypothesis, Stephen repeated, is the other way out: that, though the same object may not seem beautiful to all people, all people who admire a beautiful object find in it certain relations which satisfy and coincide with the stages themselves of all esthetic apprehension. These relations of the sensible, visible to you through one form and to me through another, must be therefore the necessary qualities of beauty. Now, we can return to our old friend saint Thomas for another pennyworth of wisdom.

      Lynch laughed.

      -- It amuses me vastly, he said, to hear you quoting him time after time like a jolly round friar. Are you laughing in your sleeve?

      -- MacAlister, answered Stephen, would call my esthetic theory applied Aquinas. So far as this side of esthetic philosophy extends, Aquinas will carry me all along the line. When we come to the phenomena of artistic conception, artistic gestation, and artistic reproduction I require a new terminology and a new personal experience.

      -- Of course, said Lynch. After all Aquinas, in spite of his intellect, was exactly a good round friar. But you will tell me about the new personal experience and new terminology some other day. Hurry up and finish the first part.

      -- Who knows? said Stephen, smiling. Perhaps Aquinas would understand me better than you. He was a poet himself. He wrote a hymn for Maundy Thursday. It begins with the words Pange lingua gloriosi. They say it is the highest glory of the hymnal. It is an intricate and soothing hymn. I like it; but there is no hymn that can be put beside that mournful and majestic processional song, the Vexilla Regis of Venantius Fortunatus.

      Lynch began to sing softly and solemnly in a deep bass voice:

      Impleta sunt quae concinit
      David fideli carmine
      Dicendo nationibus
      Regnavit a ligno Deus.


      -- That's great! he said, well pleased. Great music!

      Delete
    4. They turned into Lower Mount Street. A few steps from the corner a fat young man, wearing a silk neckcloth, saluted them and stopped.

      -- Did you hear the results of the exams? he asked. Griffin was plucked. Halpin and O'Flynn are through the home civil. Moonan got fifth place in the Indian. O'Shaughnessy got fourteenth. The Irish fellows in Clark's gave them a feed last night. They all ate curry.

      His pallid bloated face expressed benevolent malice and, as he had advanced through his tidings of success, his small fat-encircled eyes vanished out of sight and his weak wheezing voice out of hearing.

      In reply to a question of Stephen's his eyes and his voice came forth again from their lurking-places.

      -- Yes, MacCullagh and I; he said. He's taking pure mathematics and I'm taking constitutional history. There are twenty subjects. I'm taking botany too. You know I'm a member of the field club.

      He drew back from the other two in a stately fashion and placed a plump woollen-gloved hand on his breast from which muttered wheezing laughter at once broke forth.

      -- Bring us a few turnips and onions the next time you go out, said Stephen drily, to make a stew.

      The fat student laughed indulgently and said:

      -- We are all highly respectable people in the field club. Last Saturday we went out to Glenmalure, seven of us.

      -- With women, Donovan? said Lynch.

      Donovan again laid his hand on his chest and said:

      -- Our end is the acquisition of knowledge. Then he said quickly:

      -- I hear you are writing some essays about esthetics. Stephen made a vague gesture of denial.

      Delete
    5. The Vandals got their ass kicked, again.

      Delete
    6. get a good job, he said at length, and I have to smoke cheap cigarettes!

      They turned their faces towards Merrion Square and went for a little in silence.

      -- To finish what I was saying about beauty, said Stephen, the most satisfying relations of the sensible must therefore correspond to the necessary phases of artistic apprehension. Find these and you find the qualities of universal beauty. Aquinas says: Ad pulcritudinem tria requiruntur integritas, consonantia, claritas. I translate it so: Three things are needed for beauty, wholeness, harmony, and radiance. Do these correspond to the phases of apprehension? Are you following?

      -- Of course, I am, said Lynch. If you think I have an excrementitious intelligence run after Donovan and ask him to listen to you.

      Stephen pointed to a basket which a butcher's boy had slung inverted on his head.

      -- Look at that basket, he said.

      -- I see it, said Lynch.

      -- In order to see that basket, said Stephen, your mind first of all separates the basket from the rest of the visible universe which is not the basket. The first phase of apprehension is a bounding line drawn about the object to be apprehended. An esthetic image is presented to us either in space or in time. What is audible is presented in time, what is visible is presented in space. But, temporal or spatial, the esthetic image is first luminously apprehended as selfbounded and selfcontained upon the immeasurable background of space or time which is not it. You apprehended it as one thing. You see it as one whole. You apprehend its wholeness. That is integritas.

      Delete
    7. -- Bull's eye! said Lynch, laughing. Go on.

      -- Then, said Stephen, you pass from point to point, led by its formal lines; you apprehend it as balanced part against part within its limits; you feel the rhythm of its structure. In other words, the synthesis of immediate perception is followed by the analysis of apprehension. Having first felt that it is one thing you feel now that it is a thing. You apprehend it as complex, multiple, divisible, separable, made up of its parts, the result of its parts and their sum, harmonious. That is consonantia.

      -- Bull's eye again! said Lynch wittily. Tell me now what is claritas and you win the cigar.

      -- The connotation of the word, Stephen said, is rather vague. Aquinas uses a term which seems to be inexact. It baffled me for a long time. It would lead you to believe that he had in mind symbolism or idealism, the supreme quality of beauty being a light from some other world, the idea of which the matter is but the shadow, the reality of which it is but the symbol. I thought he might mean that claritas is the artistic discovery and representation of the divine purpose in anything or a force of generalization which would make the esthetic image a' universal one, make it outshine its proper conditions. But that is literary talk. I understand it so. When you have apprehended that basket as one thing and have then analysed it according to its form and apprehended it as a thing you make the only synthesis which is logically and esthetically permissible. You see that it is that thing which it is and no other thing. The radiance of which he speaks in the scholastic quidditas, the whatness of a thing. This supreme quality is felt by the artist when the esthetic image is first conceived in his imagination. The mind in that mysterious instant Shelley likened beautifully to a fading coal. The instant wherein that supreme quality of beauty, the clear radiance of the esthetic image, is apprehended luminously by the mind which has been arrested by its wholeness and fascinated by its harmony is the luminous silent stasis of esthetic pleasure, a spiritual state very like to that cardiac condition which the Italian physiologist Luigi Galvani, using a phrase almost as beautiful as Shelley's, called the enchantment of the heart.

      Stephen paused and, though his companion did not speak, felt that his words had called up around them a thought-enchanted silence.

      -- What I have said, he began again, refers to beauty in the wider sense of the word, in the sense which the word has in the literary tradition. In the marketplace it has another sense. When we speak of beauty in the second sense of the term our judgement is influenced in the first place by the art itself and by the form of that art. The image, it is clear, must be set between the mind or senses of the artist himself and the mind or senses of others. If you bear this in memory you will see that art necessarily divides itself into three forms progressing from one to the next. These forms are: the lyrical form, the form wherein the artist presents his image in immediate relation to himself; the epical form, the form wherein he presents his image in mediate relation to himself and to others; the dramatic form, the form wherein he presents his image in immediate relation to others.

      Delete
    8. -- That you told me a few nights ago, said Lynch, and we began the famous discussion.

      -- I have a book at home, said Stephen, in which I have written down questions which are more amusing than yours were. In finding the answers to them I found the theory of esthetic which I am trying to explain. Here are some questions I set myself: Is a chair finely made tragic or comic? Is the portrait of Mona Lisa good if I desire to see it? If not, why not?

      -- Why not, indeed? said Lynch, laughing.

      -- If a man hacking in fury at a block of wood, Stephen continued, make there an image of a cow, is that image a work of art? If not, why not?

      -- That's a lovely one, said Lynch, laughing again. That has the true scholastic stink.

      -- Lessing, said Stephen, should not have taken a group of statues to write of. The art, being inferior, does not present the forms I spoke of distinguished clearly one from another. Even in literature, the highest and most spiritual art, the forms are often confused. The lyrical form is in fact the simplest verbal vesture of an instant of emotion a rhythmical cry such as ages ago cheered on the man who pulled at the oar or dragged stones up a slope. He who utters it is more conscious of the instant of emotion than of himself as feeling emotion. The simplest epical form is seen emerging out of lyrical literature when the artist prolongs and broods upon himself as the centre of an epical event and this form progresses till the centre of emotional gravity is equidistant from the artist himself and from others. The narrative is no longer purely personal. The personality of the artist passes into the narration itself, flowing round and round the persons and the action like a vital sea. This progress you will see easily in that old English ballad Turpin Hero which begins in the first person and ends in the third person. The dramatic form is reached when the vitality which has flowed and eddied round each person fills every person with such vital force that he or she assumes a proper and intangible esthetic life. The personality of the artist, at first a cry or a cadence or a mood and then a fluid and lambent narrative, finally refines itself out of existence, impersonalizes itself, so to speak. The esthetic image in the dramatic form is life purified in and reprojected from the human imagination. The mystery of esthetic, like that of material creation, is accomplished. The artist, like the God of creation, remains within or behind or beyond or above his handiwork, invisible, refined out of existence, indifferent, paring his fingernails.

      -- Trying to refine them also out of existence, said Lynch.

      Delete
    9. -- Lessing, said Stephen, should not have taken a group of statues to write of. The art, being inferior, does not present the forms I spoke of distinguished clearly one from another. Even in literature, the highest and most spiritual art, the forms are often confused. The lyrical form is in fact the simplest verbal vesture of an instant of emotion a rhythmical cry such as ages ago cheered on the man who pulled at the oar or dragged stones up a slope. He who utters it is more conscious of the instant of emotion than of himself as feeling emotion. The simplest epical form is seen emerging out of lyrical literature when the artist prolongs and broods upon himself as the centre of an epical event and this form progresses till the centre of emotional gravity is equidistant from the artist himself and from others. The narrative is no longer purely personal. The personality of the artist passes into the narration itself, flowing round and round the persons and the action like a vital sea. This progress you will see easily in that old English ballad Turpin Hero which begins in the first person and ends in the third person. The dramatic form is reached when the vitality which has flowed and eddied round each person fills every person with such vital force that he or she assumes a proper and intangible esthetic life. The personality of the artist, at first a cry or a cadence or a mood and then a fluid and lambent narrative, finally refines itself out of existence, impersonalizes itself, so to speak. The esthetic image in the dramatic form is life purified in and reprojected from the human imagination. The mystery of esthetic, like that of material creation, is accomplished. The artist, like the God of creation, remains within or behind or beyond or above his handiwork, invisible, refined out of existence, indifferent, paring his fingernails.

      -- Trying to refine them also out of existence, said Lynch.

      A fine rain began to fall from the high veiled sky and they turned into the duke's lawn to reach the national library before the shower came.

      -- What do you mean, Lynch asked surlily, by prating about beauty and the imagination in this miserable Godforsaken island? No wonder the artist retired within or behind his handiwork after having perpetrated this country.

      The rain fell faster. When they passed through the passage beside Kildare house they found many students sheltering under the arcade of the library. Cranly, leaning against a pillar, was picking his teeth with a sharpened match, listening to some companions. Some girls stood near the entrance door. Lynch whispered to Stephen:

      -- Your beloved is here.

      Delete
    10. Stephen took his place silently on the step below the group of students, heedless of the rain which fell fast, turning his eyes towards her from time to time. She too stood silently among her companions. She has no priest to flirt with, he thought with conscious bitterness, remembering how he had seen her last. Lynch was right. His mind emptied of theory and courage, lapsed back into a listless peace.

      He heard the students talking among themselves. They spoke of two friends who had passed the final medical examination, of the chances of getting places on ocean liners, of poor and rich practices.

      -- That's all a bubble. An Irish country practice is better.

      -- Hynes was two years in Liverpool and he says the same. A frightful hole he said it was. Nothing but midwifery cases.

      -- Do you mean to say it is better to have a job here in the country than in a rich city like that? I know a fellow.

      -- Hynes has no brains. He got through by stewing, pure stewing.

      -- Don't mind him. There's plenty of money to be made in a big commercial City.

      -- Depends on the practice.

      -- Ego credo ut vita pauperum est simpliciter atrox, simpliciter sanguinarius atrox, in Liverpoolio.

      Their voices reached his ears as if from a distance in interrupted pulsation. She was preparing to go away with her companions.

      The quick light shower had drawn off, tarrying in clusters of diamonds among the shrubs of the quadrangle where an exhalation was breathed forth by the blackened earth. Their trim boots prattled as they stood on the steps of the colonnade, talking quietly and gaily, glancing at the clouds, holding their umbrellas at cunning angles against the few last raindrops, closing them again, holding their skirts demurely.

      And if he had judged her harshly? If her life were a simple rosary of hours, her life simple and strange as a bird's life, gay in the morning, restless all day, tired at sundown? Her heart simple and wilful as a bird's heart?


      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Delete
    11. from Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man - Chapter 5

      James Joyce

      (since we are doing quotes these days)

      Delete
    12. AnonymousSat Nov 02, 08:50:00 PM EDT
      The Vandals got their ass kicked, again.

      I see some anon asshole interrupted my quotey flow.

      But they did indeed get an ass kicking, though not as badly as is usual.

      out

      Delete
  29. Builders envision 40,000 Palestinians enjoying comforts akin to a U.S. suburb instead of crowded and disorganized towns and villages with poor infrastructure.

    Complete with sidewalks, so long as the concrete isn't used to line the rat tunnels under the fence.

    ReplyDelete
  30. I see rat the self proclaimed professional asshole has, not unexpectedly, dropped a bunch his turds right in the middle of my fine James Joyce quotes. Whacky, having never read Joyce, has no comprehension of the sacrilege he just committed.

    He could have just as well started his own little line, but nope. This is what professional assholes do.

    "There is something really wrong with you, Rat."

    Trish

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Who is Anonymous?

      Why doesn't he join the Community?

      There is something wrong with Robert.

      I don't need a skirt to tell me so.

      Delete
    2. ah, Edward, Edward, but you are a self confessed professional asshole. Everyone agrees with you.

      "There is something REALLY wrong with you, Rat."

      Trish

      I like to rely on the testimonies of others when making judgments about people.

      "Rat is bat shit crazy"

      Quirk

      Shall I continue......?

      Naw, I'm going to bed.

      Out till tomorrow, folks!

      LONG LIVE THE VANDALS!

      Delete
    3. And Trish isn't a "skirt", asshole, she's a woman.

      Delete
    4. No, she was a avatar, not a real person.
      Trish was both the Colonel and his wife, but you were to dense to catch on, Fudd

      And she was a skirt, that was her role. Wife, mother, skirt wearer.
      Gave up her career in Army Intelligence to be a "skirt". Her choice and there is nothing wrong with it.

      You're the one that called a woman a C..t.. Melody to be exact, at the Elephant Bar..

      You are the one that thinks killing babies on demand, for gender selection purposes, empowers women, as it kills the baby girls.

      Delete
  31. Rat-boy is afraid the quality of the discourse might be raised here, Bob.

    And he is frightened of that.

    Don't concern yourself, nobody listens to him anymore anyway.

    He is, as Quirk said, "bat shit crazy:.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you, anon. If I had widened the quotes out a bit one could see Stephen giving up on his birth religion and politics too

      And history too, in a later book -

      >>>“History, Stephen said, is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.” ― James Joyce, Ulysses.<<<

      Delete

    2. “True irreverence is disrespect for another man's god”

      Delete
    3. Mark was definitely wrong on that one.

      Delete
    4. Right on the money, Samuel was.
      The fella off base, the man with no name.

      Other than Fudd, the racist fascist that described the deaths of 600,000 Americans to be as serious as a wind riffle.

      Delete
    5. Mark was entirely wrong. Irreverence is respecting a disreputable god. Reverence us disrespecting a disreputable god.

      Mark knew his Bible, he did not know his Koran.

      Delete
    6. Samuel was totally correct, recall he had visited Jerusalem, had been to Arabia.
      Had interacted with Muslims and Islam, on a personal level.

      He'd been there, done that.

      He was well traveled, unlike Farmer Fudd who has never left the United States.
      Fudd left America once, he went to Hawaii.

      Delete
    7. Farmer Fudd, projecting his own limitations on to Mark Twain.

      Greatly disrespects Mr Clemens by doing so.

      But what else would we expect, from a fascist, racist, Fudd.
      His sister would be so ashamed, to know he favors abortion on demand, even for gender preference reasons.

      That fetus is just an nonviable tissue mass, not a baby girl.
      If you're a self centered fascist Fudd.

      Delete
    8. Murdering baby girls, to empower women.

      That's the Fudd Way.

      Delete
  32. According to Martin Gilbert, 50,000 Arabs immigrated to Mandatory Palestine from the neighboring lands between 1919 and 1939 "attracted by the improving agricultural conditions and growing job opportunities, most of them created by the Jews".[45] The Arab population of Palestine doubled during the mandatory period from 670 000 in 1922 to over 1,2 million in 1948. The estimates on the scope of Arab immigration to Palestine during this period range from insignificant numbers to almost 300 000. According to Itzhak Galnoor, although most of Arab population increase came from natural increase, the Arab immigration to Palestine was not insignificant. Based on his estimates approximately 100 000 Arabs immigrated to Palestine between 1922 and 1948.[46]

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. End the OccupationSun Nov 03, 12:39:00 AM EDT

      So their residence and citizenship pre-dated the establishment of the state of Israel.
      Glad there agreement, on that issue.

      Citizens of the Ottoman Empire, moving around in it.
      Gaining residency on the land, after the Imperial Empire collapsed.

      Allowed residency by the Protectorate Powers that be.
      The same authority that ceded power to the Zionists.

      Making both groups legitimate on the land in Palestine.

      Delete
    2. Jordan is a fine place for a state called Palestine.

      Delete
    3. End the OccupationSun Nov 03, 01:31:00 AM EDT

      Except it is a state called Jordon.

      Delete
    4. Jordan is a fine place for the Palestinians.

      Except the King don't want 'em. Nobody else does either, understandably enough.

      Delete
    5. Come to think of it, Arizona would make a fine place for the Palestinians. They seem loved enough by folks there.

      Delete
    6. Maybe the rich bottom land owners should open their pastures to the Palestinians, rather than to the cattle.

      Delete
    7. I know of one rich rich bottom land rich land owner who is so enamored of the Palestinians I'm sure he would volunteer.

      Which is of more value after all, Palestinians or cattle?

      Which group would you want pasturing on your rich bottom land?

      The choice is obvious.

      Delete
    8. Any of them with family here, prior to 14FEB1912, statehood, we'll make room for.
      Full citizenship, all their natural rights observed.

      Just like all those in Israel/Palestine prior to 1948 are citizens, there.

      Delete
    9. When ya all givin' that bottom land back to the red man?

      They was there thousands a years fore you.

      Just don't seem fare. They stuck with the rocks on the res, you got the bottom land.

      Delete
  33. .

    I've argued all along that Israel exists and its legitimacy is established by the fact it is a member of the UN and is recognized as a legitimate state by most other countries in the world. Arguments over 'historical homeland' and purchased property are silly when trying to argue for the 'right' to a state. Just as are arguments made by the Arab Israel shouldn't exist.

    However, I recently read an article which calls in to question what I (and I'm sure most others) have taken as a truism throughout the entire debate.

    Just a reminder,

    The Balfour Declaration was merely a statement by one particular British government to work towards the Zionist aim of establishing a Jewish 'homeland' in Palestine while at the same time guaranteeing the rights of the others living there, the Arabs.

    1917 November 2

    The British Government issues the Balfour Declaration which documented three main ideas:

    First, it declared official support from the British Government for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people", and promised that the British Government would actively aid in the these efforts.

    Second, it documented that the British Government would not support actions that would prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish residents of Palestine.

    Finally, it confirmed that Jews living in any other country would, similarly, not be prejudiced.


    While the British gained control of Palestine in 1917, it wasn't given to them as a mandate until after WWI in 1923.

    It wasn't until 1937 that Britain actually proposed a partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab areas. Their proposal was rejected by both Arabs and Jews.

    In 1939, due to Arab protests, a new British government set limits on Jewish immigration into Palestine proving once again that the avowed intentions of any state are only farts in the wind until acted upon.

    In 1942, at the Biltmore Conference, the Zionists made their ultimate goal clear in demanding "that Palestine be established as a Jewish Commonwealth" (state), rather than a "homeland."

    Most people believe that when the UN General Assembly passed Resolution 181 approving the partitioning of Palestine into Jewish and Palestinian states that it in fact authorized that partition, but of course it didn't. The General Assembly doesn't have that power.

    Here is an article that explains it although it's kind of long,

    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/10/26/the-myth-of-the-u-n-creation-of-israel/

    As I said, Israel was formed by force of arms, exists today by force of arms, is a member of the UN, and is recognized as a state by most other states. They should be happy.

    .

    .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I would not call claims to sovereignty based on ancestral occupation or claim "silly". The Norman Conquest, Hundred Years War, Thirty Years War, Crimean War etc come to mind instantly as proof that the folk take these things seriously.

      There is no question of a cloud on the title to the land in question, in large part because of the vacillation and duplicity of sundry British administrations.

      As you argue ( I believe) these issues or of little consequence in the face of what should be a fait accompli: Israel is a nation state.. But here is the rub, the Arabs have been unwilling to accept the legitimacy and perpetuity of a Jewish state. Consequently, there is confrontation on an almost daily basis, with no end in sight. Moreover, the Arabs have been successful at convincing the EU to participate in a boycott, with the end of destroying the Jewish economy. Paradoxically, the Arabs have been so successful in this exercise that German industry, for example, has just recently come to comprehend the damage that will be done to the German economy by this boycott. You see, about 50% of Germany's hi-tech components come from Israel and the German dependency grows daily. At the moment, the Germans have no substitutes readily at hand. And as you know, as goes the economy of Germany so goes the economy of the EU.

      Why should Israel be "happy"? It faces foes who live without honor and have dedicated themselves and their progeny to the death of the Jewish homeland. No, happiness is not a rational response, although it would be a silly one.

      Delete
    2. On this matter, I sheath my sword, without rancor. Honorable men may disagree. Best

      Delete
  34. As I said, Israel was formed by force of arms, exists today by force of arms, is a member of the UN, and is recognized as a state by most other states. They should be happy.

    As was most other nations.

    Sadly the opponents of Israel cannot admit their defeat in their goal of the destruction of the state of Israel.

    So as long as they continue by one means or another to attempt to destroy Israel? Israel will fight back.

    Sorry if that doesn't sit well with those who continually are defeated in their genocidal attempts but I just can't get too worked up when terrorists get smacked...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Just another country, like all the other countries.

      Right where it always has been.
      Not superior, not a chosen people, not a gift from God.

      Just another group of colonialists that went and stole some one else's stuff and will fight to keep it.

      Equivalency is the best he can claim.
      Rightfully so...

      Delete
    2. When ya all givin' that bottom land back to the red man?

      They was there thousands a years fore you.

      Just don't seem fare. They stuck with the rocks on the res, you got the bottom land.

      An they had family there, too.

      Or are you just another group of colonialists that went and stole some one else's stuff and will fight to keep it?

      Eh?

      Delete
    3. You much worse.

      Show me the ruins of the Temple your folks built in Arizona 2 000 years ago, buckaroo.

      Delete
    4. People can stand liars, and they can stand hypocrites, and they can stand people who are professional assholes. but they can't abide people who are liars and hypocrites and professional assholes

      Delete
  35. Quirk,

    Thanks for the Foreign Policy article link. There was one paragraph that seems to typify how the Israelis operate:

    "On May 14, the Zionist leadership unilaterally declared the existence of the State of Israel, citing Resolution 181 as constituting “recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State”.[36] As anticipated, war ensued."

    As the article makes clear Res 181 did not do that they jump on it and act. Another example of similar behavior is Israeli settlement activity. As their revered leader Ariel Sharon said of founding and protecting settlements 'they are Facts On The Ground'.

    I am currently reading a very interesting book on the Middle East call "Lawrence in Arabia" by Scott Anderson. It is an account of what many say is the 'cause' of our current middle east problems - the period around the first world war. I recommend others here read it if they are interested in the ME.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Quirk,

    Thanks for the Foreign Policy article link. There was one paragraph that seems to typify how the Israelis operate:

    "On May 14, the Zionist leadership unilaterally declared the existence of the State of Israel, citing Resolution 181 as constituting “recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State”.[36] As anticipated, war ensued."

    As the article makes clear Res 181 did not do that they jump on it and act. Another example of similar behavior is Israeli settlement activity. As their revered leader Ariel Sharon said of founding and protecting settlements 'they are Facts On The Ground'.

    I am currently reading a very interesting book on the Middle East call "Lawrence in Arabia" by Scott Anderson. It is an account of what many say is the 'cause' of our current middle east problems - the period around the first world war. I recommend others here read it if they are interested in the ME.

    ReplyDelete