From a Spectator interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali
by Mary Wakefield
Last Tuesday at nightfall, as the servants of democracy fled SW1, a young Somali woman stood spotlit on a stage in Westminster. Behind her was the illuminated logo for the Centre for Social Cohesion: a white hand reaching down across England to help a brown one up; in front, an audience of some of Britain’s biggest brains — politicians, editors, academics. She drew her shawl a little closer round her shoulders, looked up and said: ‘We are not at war with “terror”, that would make no sense.’
‘Hear, hear,’ said a voice at the back. ‘Terror is just a tactic used by Islam,’ she continued. ‘We are actually at war, not just with Islamism, but with Islam itself.’ Out in the dark began a great wobbling of heads. Neocons nodded, Muslims shook their heads; others, uncertain, waggled theirs anxiously from side to side: at war with all Islam, even here in the UK? What does that mean?
It would be easier in some ways to ignore Ayaan Hirsi Ali, to label her as bonkers — but it would also be irresponsible. She’s not just another hawkish hack, anxious to occupy the top tough-guy media slot — she has the authority of experience, the authenticity of suffering. In the spring of 2004 she wrote a film called Submission (an artsy 11-minute protest against Islamic cruelty to women) which was shown on Dutch TV. In November 2004 the film’s director, Theo van Gogh, was assassinated and the killer left a long letter to Hirsi Ali knifed into his corpse which said, in short: you’re next. But Hirsi Ali couldn’t be silenced. She has since written an autobiography (Infidel) about growing up a Muslim (in Somalia, then Saudi Arabia and Ethiopia), describing her circumcision, the beatings she received, her arranged marriage, her flight to Holland. She risks her life daily, speaking out against what she calls the ‘fairytale’ that Islam is in essence a religion of peace.
The other reason to take her seriously is that Hirsi Ali’s ideas about Islam (that it is unamenable to reform, and intrinsically opposed to Western values) are attracting attention worldwide. In Holland where, until 2006, she was an MP for the People’s Party for Freedom and Independence (VVD), the famous ‘pillarisation’ approach to immigration — where each new culture becomes a pillar upon which the state rests — has given way to a ‘new realism’, much more in tune with Hirsi Ali’s way of thinking, and in part because of her. In Britain and in America, Ayaan Hirsi Ali has become a sort of popstar for neocons, and she now lives in Washington, and works as a fellow of the American Enterprise Institute.
But is she right? And what does ‘war with Islam’ mean? I went to find out; to meet Ayaan Hirsi Ali in the House of Lords on a bitter and blustery afternoon last week, bustling past the police, down the corridors of partial power, to the visitors’ room where she was waiting. We haven’t got much time, so can we dive straight into Islam? I ask. ‘Yes, absolutely, go ahead,’ she smiles. Up close she is disconcertingly beautiful, and fragile-looking. OK then, right. Well, you say that Islam is a violent religion, because the Prophet advocated violence. But isn’t that open to interpretation? I ask. Karen Armstrong, (a non-Muslim biographer of Mohammed) has said the Prophet was a loving man who’d have been horrified at 9/11.
‘Karen Armstrong is ridiculous,’ says Hirsi Ali in her quick, light voice — Africa still audible in the clipped consonants. ‘The Prophet would have not have disapproved of 9/11, because it was carried out in his example. When he came to Medina, the Prophet had a revelation, of jihad. After that, it became an obligation for Muslims to convert others, and to establish an Islamic state, by the sword if necessary.’
But there is such a thing as moderate Islam, I say. Muslims aren’t all terrorists. There are some like Ed Husain (author of The Islamist) who argue that there are many peaceful traditions of Koranic scholarship to choose from. Isn’t it a mistake to dismiss this gentler, acceptable branch of Islam?
‘I find the word “moderate” very misleading.’ There’s a touch of steel in Hirsi Ali’s voice. ‘I don’t believe there is such a thing as “moderate Islam”. I think it’s better to talk about degrees of belief and degrees of practice. The Koran is quite clear that it should control every area of life. If a Muslim chooses to obey only some of the Prophet’s commandments, he is only a partial Muslim. If he is a good Muslim, he will wish to establish Sharia law.’
But I don’t call myself a ‘partial Christian’ just because I don’t take the whole Bible literally, I say. Why can’t a Muslim pick and choose his scriptures too? Before Hirsi Ali can answer, the door to the waiting room flies open and a House of Lords doorman stands theatrically on the threshold. ‘You must stop this interview immediately!’ he says. Why? Is there a breach of security? A terrorist threat? ‘I have not received authorisation for it,’ he says. But we’re here with a peer, I say. I’m sure he has cleared it. ‘Please proceed to the waiting area in silence.’ So off we trudge to the foyer to sit by a fake fire — ‘it’s much nicer here, anyway,’ says Hirsi Ali kindly — and to continue our discussion about the superiority of the free, enlightened West in urgent whispers behind my rucksack.
‘Christianity is different from Islam,’ says Hirsi Ali, ‘because it allows you to question it. It probably wasn’t different in the past, but it is now. Christians — at least Christians in a liberal democracy — have accepted, after Thomas Hobbes, that they must obey the secular rule of law; that there must be a separation of church and state. In Islamic doctrine such a separation has not occurred yet. This is what makes it dangerous! Islam — all Islam, not just Islamism — has not acknowledged that it must obey secular law. Islam is hostile to reason.’
Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s eyes are now aglow. She is a terrific believer in reason. For her, Western civilisation is built on the bedrock not of Judaeo-Christian values, but of logic. After seeking asylum in Holland, she spent five years at Leiden university studying political science, absorbing the Enlightenment philosophers — Spinoza, Hobbes, Voltaire — and she mentions them fondly, as if they’re family. But there’s a steely side to her atheism, which says with Voltaire: Ecraser l’infâme! During a recent debate with Ed Husain, as Husain was explaining his moderate Islam, she began to laugh at him, saying: ‘When you die you rot, Ed! There is no afterlife, Ed!’ And it makes me wonder whether, for Hirsi Ali, Islam’s crime is as much against reason as humanity; whether she sees the point of spirituality at all.
Are you so sure you understand what is at the heart of Islam? I ask her. Isn’t there a peaceful prayerfulness — apart from the politics — that an atheist might not understand? ‘I was a Muslim once, remember, and it was when I was most devout that I was most full of hate,’ she says.
OK then, you talk about your conscience, and how your conscience was pricked by 9/11. But if there’s no God, what do you mean by a conscience? And why should we obey it?
‘My conscience is informed by reason,’ says Hirsi Ali, surprised I should ask. ‘It’s like Kant’s categorical imperative: behave to others as you would wish they behaved to you.’
I say, so let’s assume Islam is hostile and not open to reason, that it needs to be wiped out. The next question then is how? We can’t just ban it. Isn’t it destructive to curtail freedom so much in the interests of protecting it? Don’t you risk loving freedom to death?
Hirsi Ali looks at me with pity. ‘You, here in the UK, are in danger. Of course you can’t ban Islam outright, but you need to stop the spread of ideology, stop native Westerners converting to Islam. You definitely need to ban the veil in schools, and to close down Muslim schools because that’s where kids are indoctrinated.’
But, what about freedom of belief and free speech? I ask (with a nervous look at the doorman). And if you close down Muslim schools, don’t you, by the same logic, have to close all faith schools?
‘Islam is different from other faiths because it is not just a faith, it is a political ideology. Children learn that Allah is the lawgiver, and that is a political statement. You wouldn’t allow the BNP to run a school, would you?’
But if we crack down like this, won’t it make Muslims angry? I say, thinking about terrorists and my safety. ‘Well perhaps anger is no bad thing,’ says Hirsi Ali, thinking about ordinary Muslims, and their enlightenment. ‘Perhaps it’ll make Muslims more aware, help them question their beliefs. If we keep on asking questions, maybe Muslim women will realise, as I did, that they don’t have to be second-class citizens.’
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is on her favourite topic now (the subjection of women), leaning forward, gesticulating. And as she talks I realise (belatedly) what makes her different from her neocon pals. Whereas they seem motivated by fear of Muslims, she is out to protect Muslims from submission to unreason. When she speaks of a ‘war against Islam’, she’s thinking not of armies of insurgents, but of an ideological virus, in the same way a doctor might talk of the battle against typhoid. ‘Yes, I am at war with Islam,’ she says, as she gets up to leave, ‘but I am not at war with Muslims.’ It’s a crucial difference.
It’s teatime now and the House of Lords hallway is suddenly full of peers’ wives chattering, shaking their brollies. Sorry about all these women in headscarves, I say unnecessarily, as I shake her hand goodbye. ‘Don’t worry,’ says Ayaan Hirsi Ali, ‘It’s not the hijab, the headscarves are just to protect them against the rain!’ And she walks off, laughing.
"People ask me how many children I have. I say one boy and seven mistakes." -- Mohammad AliReplyDelete
‘Yes, I am at war with Islam,’ she says, as she gets up to leave, ‘but I am not at war with Muslims.’ It’s a crucial difference."ReplyDelete
Oh boy, and how!
"Hard to see why you are not bothered by the 40k killed via the illegal invasion on Bush's watch, but claim to be VERY bothered by the cost of our botched excercise in Iraq."ReplyDelete
Do you want to take that up with me, Doug?
she began to laugh at him, saying: ‘When you die you rot, Ed! There is no afterlife, Ed!’ReplyDelete
I surely admire Hirsi Ali, but I fear she loads Reason with a burden it cannot carry. We should listen to her on the muslim threat, but not on Reason, which is one tool of the mind.
"We are metaphysical beings of some sort, and we cast a shadow into materiality, and that shadow we cast is our body."
Terence Kemp (Hemp) McKenna
No, I don't want to "take it up with you," I'd just like to know why you complain loudly and repeatedly about the 4k, but maintain absolute silence on the 40k sacrificed and the hundreds of thousands maimed and injured.ReplyDelete
You said something like "normalization" or some such re: Rudy and those already here:
Fact is, he's for a
"PATH TO CITIZENSHIP"
JUST LIKE BUSH!
Why the hell not legalize them, but not reward them for illegally coming here, ie ANOTHER Amnesty!
Anybody but Rudy that's against Amnesty for me!
That's an exquisite turn of phrase, bob. Is it yours?ReplyDelete
Something more specific thanReplyDelete
"Oh boy, and how! " or similar on the illegal issue would be greatly appreciated!
Trish runs on theReplyDelete
"Straight Talk Suppressed"
"Something more specific thanReplyDelete
"Oh boy, and how! " or similar on the illegal issue would be greatly appreciated!"
So why'd you bring it up?ReplyDelete
Terence McKenna, deceased, Trish.ReplyDelete
The Valley Spirit never dies.
It is called the Mysterious Female.
And the doorway of the Mysterious Female
Is the base from which Heaven and Earth spring.
It is there within us all the time.
Draw upon it as you will, it never runs dry.
The Scriptures say of human beings that there is an outward man and along with him an inner man.
To the outward man belong those things that depend on the soul, but are connected with the flesh and are blended with it, and the co-operative functions of the several members, such as the eye, the ear, the tongue, the hand and so on.
The Scriptures speak of all this as the old man, the earthy man, the outward person, the enemy, the servant.
Within us all is the other person, the inner man, whom the Scriptures call the new man, the heavenly man, the young person, the friend, the aristocrat.
HIrshi Ali doesn't recognize the aristocrat, or the Valley Spirit within. But then she's in shock from islam, and is smitten currently with the 'enlightenment.'
Well, Good Grief why not just go whole hog, get a solar cell, some batteries and some light bulbs!ReplyDelete
Time to blow the candle here.
Don't say that when Craig's around!ReplyDelete
"but I fear she loads Reason with a burden it cannot carry."ReplyDelete
If this yours?
2007 will be the year of the Glenn and Helen Reynolds sex tape and fashionable hijabs.ReplyDelete
Excesses of Hilton, Richie, Spears and Lohan will converge with publicists infatuation with Islamic sexuality and a new age of prudence, Victorian in its absurdity, will be broadcast on our airwaves.
In the meantime, the hottest girls will continue to be found on the Internet and will star in no movies.
TV will come to Islam. Already, CNN reminds us of how holy and devout the muslims are. No worries in Thailand, for many millions of Muslims old and young are on the magical Hajj. For each of them, it is as if they were in the movie Rudy, and Allah has put them in the game. Expect the Hijab to come to American television and sitcoms.
Pakistan gun market. Some hornet's nests are best left alone. Many sons and many guns.ReplyDelete
One cannot help but look at the Khyber Pass and think that Sally Struthers used to sing the praises of Gun Smithing at her International Correspondence School.
Where is she now?
More importantly, where are the gun smiths?
Like OB-Gyns in PA or IL, they've made themselves scarce. Of the many celebrities that comforted us with songs and stand-up while rescuers searched for survivors beneath the scalding concrete, Ms. Struthers was AWOL. Conspicuously AND mysteriously AWOL
Imagine what American ingenuity could craft, while getting its degree? Its not so hard to do...
AspergersGentleman..."who was that masked man?"ReplyDelete
I always though he was Buddy Larsen.ReplyDelete
What is a greater threat? The illegal invasion or the overseas menace?
That wasn't an option.ReplyDelete
What do you do for a living, dear hot?ReplyDelete
"‘Yes, I am at war with Islam,’ she says, as she gets up to leave, ‘but I am not at war with Muslims.’ It’s a crucial difference."ReplyDelete
I guess the first issue to clear up would be 'what is the difference between Islam and Muslim?'
I guess Ali's problem is rigidity of thought, the slavish subordination to doctrine. Should we thus wage war against Baptists and Catholics? All those that think God is a higher power then the secular state?
Yeah, that was mine, Trish. Aspergers was a good writer.ReplyDelete
Many people talk about the need to reform Islam. Now you can stop talking and start helping.ReplyDelete
With the help of our readers we went through the Koran and removed every verse that we believe did not come from Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate. However, it is possible that we missed something, and we could use your help. If you find verses in the reformed version of the Koran that promote violence, divisiveness, religious or gender superiority, bigotry, or discrimination, please let us know the number of the verse and the reason why it should be removed. Please email your suggestions to koran-AT-reformislam.org.
When we finish editing process, we would like to publish Reform Koran in as many languages as possible. If you could help with translation or distribution of the Reform Koran, please email us at koran-AT-reformislam.org. If you could provide financial support, please visit our support page.
In Memoriam of Aqsa Parvez.
We would be grateful if you change the posts picture.ReplyDelete