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Monday, January 06, 2014

Netanyahu’s demand that Israel is a Jewish state is either racist or fundamentalist and is objectionable from an American point of view on human rights grounds either way.



Recognizing Israel as a Jewish State is like saying the US is a White State

(By Juan Cole) Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu is adding a fifth demand to his negotiations with US Secretary of State John Kerry and Palestine President Mahmoud Abbas: That the Palestinians recognize…
(By Juan Cole)

Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu is adding a fifth demand to his negotiations with US Secretary of State John Kerry and Palestine President Mahmoud Abbas: That the Palestinians recognize Israel as a “Jewish state.”
For Netanyahu’s demand to make any sense, he first has to define “Jewish.” “Jewish” has a number of possible meanings. It can mean “those recognized by Talmudic law as members of the Jewish ‘race’ via maternal descent.” The latter is the legal definition of Jewishness in Israeli law itself, and for this reason we must presume that it is what Netanyahu has in mind. It can also mean “adherents of the Judaic religion,” and we can explore those implications, as well.

Of the some 6 million self-identified Jews in Israel, about 300,000 are not recognized as “Jewish” by the Chief Rabbi and there is no prospect of them being recognized as Jewish any time soon. They were allowed to immigrate to Israel because they had at least one Jewish grandparent, but if their mother was not Jewish neither are they.

So if Israel is a “Jewish” state, is it a state for these (largely Russian and Ukrainian) “non-Jewish” Jews? Many of them are Jewish by religion, but not all are. None of them are Jewish by the Talmud.

It is worse. Genetic testing of European Jews (Ashkenazim) shows that most women in that community are descended from European Christians who converted to Judaism when they married into the Jewish merchant community, which was likely established at Rome and then points east from about 800 CE (A.D.) If the Grand Rabbi took haplotypes seriously, most Ashkenazi Jews would have to be declared “not Jewish” by the Talmudic criterion, since their mothers do not have the distinctive patterns in their mitochondrial DNA showing descent from the inhabitants of the ancient Levant.

So is Israel as a “Jewish state” actually only for Eastern Jews or Mizrahim, with Ashkenazis second-class citizens?

Then, if instead “Jewish” means “observant adherent of Judaism” then that definition would exclude a lot of Israeli Jews. Only 66% or so of Israelis in polling assert that that “I know God exists and have no doubt about it.” While only 6% are outright atheists, another 28% appear to be agnostics. Since Palestinian-Israeli Muslims are mostly believers, it is likely that the percentage of Jewish agnostics and atheists is even higher than the nationwide estimate suggests. There is no legal requirement that Israeli Jews be observant believers. Would recognizing Israel as a “Jewish” state impose such a requirement?

So either way Netanyahu defines Jewishness, it disenfranchises substantial numbers of self-identifying Israeli Jews. If it is a matter of maternal descent, it leaves 300,000 or so out in the cold. If it is a matter of belief and observance, it leaves nearly 2 million Israeli Jews out of the club.

In addition, of course, 1.7 million Israelis, about a fifth of the population, are Palestinian-Israelis, mostly Muslim but some Christians. They are, in other words, a somewhat greater proportion of the Israeli citizen population than Latinos are of the US population (Latinos are about 17% of Americans). If current demographic trends continue, Palestinian-Israelis could be as much as 1/3 of the population by 2030.

Saying Israel is a “Jewish” state in the sense of race would be analogous to insisting that the US is a “white” state and defining Latinos as “brown.”
And saying Israel is a Jewish state in the sense of observant believers would be like asserting that the United States is a Christian state even though about 22% of the population does not identify as Christian (roughly the same proportion as non-Jews in Israel). The point of the US first amendment is to forbid the state to to “establish” a religion, i.e. to recognize it as a state religion with privileges (the colonists had had bad experiences with Anglicanism in this regard). While we can’t stop other countries from establishing state religions, we Americans don’t approve of it and won’t give our blessing to it, as Netanyahu seems to want. In fact our annual State Department human rights report downgrades countries that don’t separate religion and state.

While some countries have a state or official religion, that is different from what Netanyahu is demanding. Argentina’s constitution says Roman Catholicism is the state religion. But Argentina is not a “Catholic state” either in the sense of being mainly for people of Catholic religious faith (only 20% of Argentines are observant) or for being for persons descended from traditionally Catholic populations. Indeed, Argentina has about half a million Muslims, who are not discriminated against in Argentine law the way Palestinian-Israelis are discriminated against (their villages not ‘recognized’) in Israel. Anyway, as I said, in the U.S. we don’t approve of that part of the Argentine constitution. If all Netanyahu wanted was that Judaism be the ‘state religion’ of Israel, that could surely be achieved by a simple vote of the Knesset. He wants something much more, something that requires that outsiders assent to it.

Netanyahu’s demand is either racist or fundamentalist and is objectionable from an American point of view on human rights grounds either way (and I’m not just talking about the human rights of Palestinian-Israelis).
More ominously, the demand has to be seen in the context of his partnership with extreme nationalist Avigdor Lieberman. Lieberman wants to strip Palestinian-Israelis of their citizenship and make them stateless. Making people stateless was a policy of the vicious states of Europe in the 1930s, a policy from which Jews suffered mightily along with some other populations, and it is shameful for Jews to make or keep human beings stateless. You have a sinking feeling that the real reason Netanyahu wants Palestinians to assent to the Jewishness of the Israeli state (whatever that might mean) is that he has malicious plans for the 20% of the population that is not Jewish.


In any case, Sec. Kerry should simply slap Netanyahu down over this new demand, which is illogical and unreasonable and above all sinister. if Netanyahu won’t accept a two-state solution, then he or his children or grandchildren will likely have to accept a one-state solution. Kerry is trying to do him a favor, and if someone doesn’t want your favor, you don’t humiliate yourself to deliver it.

210 comments:

  1. The more you learn about the current government of Israel, the more you realize that it is antithetical to fundamental American laws and values.

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    1. Daniel Pearl was a journalist who was kidnapped and murdered in Pakistan while investigating the case of a convicted shoe bomber. The Foundation seeks continue Daniel Pearl's mission and uphold his principles which included: uncompromised objectivity and integrity; insightful and unconventional perspective; tolerance and respect for people of all cultures; unshaken belief in the effectiveness of education and communication; and the love of music, humor, and friendship.

      Judea Pearl is co-editor of “I am Jewish: Personal Reflections Inspired by the Last Words of Daniel Pearl” (Jewish Lights, 2004), winner of the National Jewish Book Award.

      Anti-Zionism is Racism

      by Judea Pearl

      In the past three months, I have visited four “troubled” campuses — Duke, York (Canada), Columbia and UC Irvine — where tensions between Jewish and anti-Zionist students and professors have attracted national attention. In these visits, I have spoken to students, faculty and administrators, and I have obtained a fairly gloomy picture of the situation on those and other campuses.

      Jewish students are currently subjected to an unprecedented assault on their identity as Jews. And we, the Jewish faculty on campus, have let those students down. We have failed to equip them with effective tools to fight back this assault.

      We can reverse this trend.

      Many condemn anti-Zionism for being a flimsy cover for anti-Semitism. I disagree. The order is wrong. I condemn anti-Semitism for being an instrument for a worse form of racism: anti-Zionism.

      In other words, I submit that anti-Zionism is a form of racism more dangerous than classical anti-Semitism. Framing anti-Zionism as racism is precisely the weapon that our students need for survival on campus.

      Anti-Zionism earns its racist character from denying the Jewish people what it grants to other collectives (e.g. Spanish, Palestinians), namely, the right to nationhood and self-determination.

      Are Jews a nation? A collective is entitled to nationhood when its members identify with a common history and wish to share a common destiny. Palestinians have earned nationhood status by virtue of thinking like a nation, not by residing where their ancestors did (many of them are only three or four generations in Palestine). Jews, likewise, are bonded by nationhood (i.e., common history and destiny) more than they are bonded by religion.

      The appeal to Jewish nationhood is necessary when we consider Israel’s insistence on remaining a “Jewish state.” By “Jewish state” Israelis mean, of course, “national Jewish state,” not “religious Jewish state” — theocratic states (like Pakistan and Iran) are incompatible with modern standards of democracy and pluralism. Anti-Zionist racists use this anti-theocracy argument repeatedly to delegitimize Israel, and I have found our students unable to defend their position with conventional ideology that views Jewishness as a religion.

      Jewishness is more than just a religion. It is an intricate and intertwined mixture of ancestry, religion, history, country, culture, tradition, attitude, nationhood and ethnicity, and we need not apologize for not fitting neatly into the standard molds of textbook taxonomies — we did not choose our turbulent history.

      As a form of racism, anti-Zionism is worse than anti-Semitism. It targets the most vulnerable part of the Jewish people, namely, the people of Israel, who rely on the sovereignty of their state for physical safety, national identity and personal dignity. To put it more bluntly, anti-Zionism condemns 5 million human beings, mostly refugees or children of refugees, to eternal statelessness, traumatized by historical images of persecution and genocide.

      Anti-Zionism also attacks the pivotal component of our identity, the glue that bonds us together — our nationhood, our history. And while people of conscience reject anti-Semitism, anti-Zionist rhetoric has become a mark of academic sophistication and social acceptance in Europe and in some U.S. campuses.

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    2. As a form of racism, anti-Zionism is worse than anti-Semitism.

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    3. It's really not up to those that would shove Jews into gas chambers to define Who is a Jew in Israel.

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    4. It's interesting how those who supported Hitler and the like, who had no problem figuring out "who was a Jew" when targeting them for deportation or execution now get pissy about who is a Jew in Israel.

      There was was no confusion by the spanish or brits when they expelled them from their lands.

      there was no confusion when the germans targeted their businesses for looting...

      there was no confusion when the Italians invented the "ghetto" to keep the Jews locked up..

      there was no confusion by the grand mufti of jerusalem and the other arabs when the slaughtered the Jews of Hebron..

      there was no confusion when the arab world expelled 850,000 Jews from the arab occupied world and PUT those Jews in Israel.

      there was no confusion when Iran and Iraq both got rid of 95% of the Jews that had lived there for 2400 years or more...

      Now that the Jews LIVE in israel?

      There is confusion.

      LOL

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    5. It's funny to watch those that failed to murder Jews from the face of the earth with bullets now attempt to do it with lawfare.

      The good news?

      Israel is not about to commit suicide to make people like Juan Cole, Deuce or Abbas happy..

      So sorry...

      Not going to do it...

      So continue to boycott, divest, support terrorist attacks on israel, try to claim Jews are not Jews it all reflects back on you..

      Not on Israel or Jews.

      Israel is the freest, safest place in the middle east for Arabs.

      Delete
    6. DeuceMon Jan 06, 10:07:00 AM EST
      The more you learn about the current government of Israel, the more you realize that it is antithetical to fundamental American laws and values.


      Funny, I guess you don't know squat about the legal system in Israel do you?

      Palestinians routinely sue in court and sin...

      Now in the Arab world? jews have the right to die...

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  2. Oh non sense Deuce, all that is really lame.

    How many states are there out there that define themselves as moslem states?

    And, further, really mean it.

    I'm an American and I give it my blessing.....

    Israel is quite secular, open and free compared to so many of these.

    Jewish people have a particular history and cohesiveness. They have lasted a long time, and have given much to the world. USA is johnny come lately in comparison, and as many have noted here recently, we are going downhill now at a rapid rate.

    I'd almost suggest it's none of your business..........but politely of course.........

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    1. Politely? LOL

      there is nothing politely about Israel declining the advise from people who would throw a Jew down a well if given a chance.

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  3. Antithetical to American laws and values?

    That's a good one. A great portion of our laws and values come from the long lasting Jewish traditions......

    Remember our blessed ancestors compared crossing the Atlantic to crossing the Red Sea........

    I suggest a thread on the NFL football play off games, with predictions about the Super Bowl......you've beaten this dead horse till it's meat is worse than hamburger.....

    Doug, I didn't know he played at Boise State.....I have much to learn....

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    1. Roberto - el Loco CagaderoMon Jan 06, 10:22:00 AM EST


      "Jewih Tradition"

      Which definition of 'Jewish' are you using?


      bob

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    2. How about a thread on how all the moslem countries violate our sacred American laws and values, much of which laws and traditions came from the Jewish tradition.....or at least include them in your condemnation of Israel.......compared to Israel they all come up very badly lacking.......

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    3. Roberto - el Loco CagaderoMon Jan 06, 10:31:00 AM EST


      Agreed, we should not be supporting them, either.

      No one here, that I have EVER read has defended the manner in which the Islamoids manage their countries. Not a word.

      Saudi Arabia, Pakistan are pilloried, often.

      It is just that the ISRAELI government is not 'Jewish' it is SECULAR, it is SOCIALIST, it is FASCIST.

      Those may or may not be part of the 'Jewish' Tradition.
      Only Humpty Dumpty would know, 'fer sur'


      bob


      No one has defined the meaning of that word, adequately, as Mr Cole so aptly illustrated.

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    4. The men who drew up and approved the Constitution believed themselves informed by the G-d of Israel. History is not the strong suit here.

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  4. 'Jewish'?
    'Semite'?

    ‘When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone,
    ‘it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.'

    ‘The question is,' said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things."


    ‘The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master—that's all.'

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  5. rat is a master baiter.

    And so publically......

    out

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    1. Roberto - el Loco CagaderoMon Jan 06, 11:25:00 AM EST


      Where is he?

      What are the lies?

      Why do you fellas not reference them, quote them?

      The answer is obvious to anyone with eyes that see ..
      or ears the hear ...

      They are not there.

      “The truth, as much as people acted like they wanted to hear it,
      was sometimes too cruel and harsh.”


      ― Laura Kreitzer

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    2. We posted the Rat's claims that he had a source/mole inside the AZ FBI and that he had access to an ongoing investigation about Rat's death threats. Rat acknowledged that the report was made and even stated that I was a target of an investigation about national security.

      So was Rat lying about having a mole inside the AZ FBI? Did Rat lie about so sort of fictitious investigation about me?

      Or if he was telling the truth, then he leaked confidential government reports concerning national security on this blog.

      Which is it? Is Rat a liar or a threat to national security?

      Delete
    3. Well he's either a liar or a self confessed criminal...

      Sure love a straight answer....

      Criminal LEAKER or a liar...

      Which is it.

      Delete

    4. What is "Occupation" - Sun Dec 22, 10:49:00 AM EST

      I wonder how long til the Palestinians get lucky and murder a few dozen Israeli kids…

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    5. Thanks for posting out of context my words Mr Rat.

      The post refers to the fact that the Palestinians have conducted over 200 terrorist attacks in the last 4 months, including bus bombings, stabbings, shootings and rockets.

      It is important that the world KNOW the extent of the savages that border around the state of Israel.

      Just this week, Israel delivered warm blankets and Jackets to Syrian refugees made homeless by Assad and the Israelis were instructed to removed any and all words or labels that were in Hebrew lest the refugees would shun the aid knowing it came from Jews.

      Again thanks for bringing up the horrible neighborhood that Israel finds it's self surrounded by.

      So while you folks debate the nonsense about whether Israel is racist or not perfect enough?

      Arabs are murdering Arabs by the dozens on a daily basis and Palestinians KEEP trying to MURDER Jews. Perhaps the Palestinians get lucky and murder a few dozen Israeli kids, then Israel can retaliate.

      Maybe the Palestinians need to be put under occupation like the nazis in post ww2 were...

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    6. Well he's either a liar or a self confessed criminal...

      Sure love a straight answer....

      Criminal LEAKER or a liar...

      Which is it?

      Delete
  6. UN General Assembly Resolutions:
    Resolution 181
    (November 29, 1947)

    PLAN OF PARTITION WITH ECONOMIC UNION

    Independent Arab and Jewish States

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    1. The reality, which you may well know.

      The General Assembly passed on 29NOV1947 - Reslution 181, which RECOMMENDED that ...

      Recommends to the United Kingdom, as the mandatory Power for Palestine, and to all other Members of the United Nations the adoption and implementation, with regard to the future Government of Palestine, of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union set out below;

      Requests that

      The Security Council take the necessary measures as provided for in the plan for its implementation;


      The Security Council consider, if circumstances during the transitional period require such consideration, whether the situation in Palestine constitutes a threat to the peace. If it decides that such a threat exists, and in order to maintain international peace and security, the Security Council should supplement the authorization of the General Assembly by taking measures, under Articles 39 and 41 of the Charter, to empower the United Nations Commission, as provided in this resolution, to exercise in Palestine the functions which are assigned to it by this resolution;

      The Security Council determine as a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, in accordance with Article 39 of the Charter, any attempt to alter by force the settlement envisaged by this resolution;

      The Trusteeship Council be informed of the responsibilities envisaged for it in this plan;

      Calls upon the inhabitants of Palestine to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put this plan into effect;

      Appeals to all Governments and all peoples to refrain from taking any action which might hamper or delay the carrying out of these recommendations, and

      Authorizes the Secretary-General to reimburse travel and subsistence expenses of the members of the Commission referred to in Part 1, Section B, Paragraph I below, on such basis and in such form as he may determine most appropriate in the circumstances, and to provide the Commission with the necessary staff to assist in carrying out the functions assigned to the Commission by the General Assembly.


      The "Plan" was never voted upon, by the Security Council, and the inhabitants of the area did not sign on, either.

      The Resolution was ignored by all the parties.
      The Israeli UNILATERALLY declared an independent state on 15MAY1948

      Seems that no one accepted Resolution 181, concurrent to its passage, the Plan was never implemented.

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    2. Sorry...did not read your post...You are a lair and I am tired of proving it.

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    3. Well he's either a liar or a self confessed criminal...

      Sure love a straight answer....

      Criminal LEAKER or a liar...

      Which is it?

      Delete
  7. "Doug, I didn't know he played at Boise State.....I have much to learn...."

    Yes...

    We do.

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    1. He is young in his career, but can he best Steve Young?

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  8. Congrats Deuce, you are true to form, just last thread, at the end, I stated that your action, rat's and Ms T is the very definition of Ant-semitic behavior.

    And then you deleted my words and put up this thread.

    thanks for PROVING my assertion.

    As a form of racism, anti-Zionism is worse than anti-Semitism.

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    1. Jewish intellectuals no longer allow that distinction. They have learned that Jew baiters and haters hide behind the aegis of anti-Zionism.

      Delete
  9. Israel, as a Jewish state, has as it's citizens, 20% arabs. Who are free to be muslim, christian or nothing.

    To single Israel out to a standard that no nation on the planet lives up to is by it's very nature, anti-semitic.

    United Nations General Assembly the same day, November 10, 1975, Israeli Ambassador Chaim Herzog stated:
    "I can point with pride to the Arab ministers who have served in my government; to the Arab deputy speaker of my Parliament; to Arab officers and men serving of their own volition in our border and police defense forces, frequently commanding Jewish troops; to the hundreds of thousands of Arabs from all over the Middle East crowding the cities of Israel every year; to the thousands of Arabs from all over the Middle East coming for medical treatment to Israel; to the peaceful coexistence which has developed; to the fact that Arabic is an official language in Israel on a par with Hebrew; to the fact that it is as natural for an Arab to serve in public office in Israel as it is incongruous to think of a Jew serving in any public office in an Arab country, indeed being admitted to many of them. Is that racism? It is not! That ... is Zionism."

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    1. WiO, what, specifically, would make Israel a Jewish State?

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    2. The Invention of the Jewish People
      is a book written by Shlomo Sand, an Israeli professor of history at the University of Tel Aviv.

      The author wasn’t probing a belief system but Zionist fabrications of a spurious common lineage for people of the Jewish faith.

      Sand argues that the idea of Jews having a common ethnic identity is implausible because,
      as with Christianity and Islam, Judaism was originally a “proselytising religion”.

      The notion of Judaism as a “race”, rather than a religion of various races, is without foundation.

      The recent study by John Hopkins geneticist Dr Elhaik confirms...
      that the common genome structure of the European Jew gravitated towards an origin in old Khazaria.

      “The majority of Jews do not have Middle Eastern genetic component,” he told Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

      Founded on a mélange of myths and manufactured historical tales,
      Israel has failed the archaeological test of time and is now exposed by DNA science.

      Today’s genetics prove unequivocally that in 1948 “the children of the original Jews” were replaced by converts ...
      With no roots in the Middle East.

      http://www.redressonline.com/2013/02/the-myth-of-the-jewish-people/

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    3. The notion of Judaism as a “race”, rather than a religion of various races, is without foundation.

      The results of a recently published study by Israeli-American geneticist Dr Eran Elhaik at John Hopkins University have scientifically and genetically validated Sand’s research

      The idea of a “nation race” was progressively developed and reinforced over centuries among segregated Jewish communities in Europe.

      With the rise of German nationalism in the 19th century, Jewish historian Heinrich Graetz “retrospectively” crafted a discrete identity for the ghettoized people –  mapping their origin to an old kingdom and wandering exiles.
      The exiles tales transpired from a Christian myth of “divine punishment” imposed on Jews for rejecting the new religion.

      The parable is likely to have originated from the Old Testament story of Jews wandering the desert for disobeying God and worshipping a golden calf.
      Christians propagated the concept of exile to lure “disobeying” Jews to the new religion, becoming their saviour from another eternal banishment.

      Modern political Zionism, which otherwise rejects the Christian Bible, adopted the untested story of “Jewish exile” to establish a mythical linkage between European Jews and the Middle East.

      But Jewish history tells us that the Romans did not expel the original Jews from Palestine when they crushed the Simon bar Kokhba revolt in 136 AD but instead barred them only from city of Jerusalem – and even then they were allowed to visit it during Tisha B’Av, the annual fasting day on the ninth day of the month of Av in the Hebrew calendar.

      Under Christianity and during the Roman Empire a large number of native Jews converted to Christianity and, with the advent of Islam, most adopted the new religion and assimilated under the new power.

      In addition to the descendants of the Canaanites, the original denizens before patriarch Abraham’s arrival from Mesopotamia, Sand concludes that today’s
      Muslim and Christian Palestinians are actually the true progenies of the original Jews.

      Jamal Kanj

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    4. “When people tell a lie about something, they have to make up a bunch of lies to go with the first one. ‘Mythomania’ is the word for it.”

      ― Haruki Murakami

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    5. AshMon Jan 06, 12:00:00 PM EST
      WiO, what, specifically, would make Israel a Jewish State?

      Ash, I guess you need to ask Israel that question.

      For me? The answer is clear. For you? I suggest you do some research and learn the answer by yourself

      Delete

    6. It could be that the reason the Arab and he Ashkenazi hate the Palestinians ...

      They all have animus toward the the true progenies of the original Jews.

      Just sayin' ...



      bob

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    7. Yawn..

      Just saying? How about this... Look at israel, see how it grows? See how moslems from around the globe seek to break into israel TO LIVE?

      See how Israel delivers hundreds of tons a day in food, fuel and supplies to the Gazans all the while the democratically elected Hamas tries to murder Jews on a daily basis?

      Israel, the Jewish State, shines like a beacon for liberty in the middle east..

      Not Egypt, Palestinian territories, Jordan, lebanon, Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, UAE...

      Not a one..

      But Israel.

      The BEST place in the middle east for a Palestinian woman to get an advanced degree from a REAL university...

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    8. Israel was purposefully established as a national home for Jews. One is a Jew by birth or conversion. I guess you could say it the homeland for Jews by ethnicity or inclination.

      It is not the US and has no desire to be.

      "Our habit of constantly and zealously answering to any rabble has already done us a lot of harm and will do much more. ... We do not have to apologize for anything. We are a people as all other peoples; we do not have any intentions to be better than the rest. As one of the first conditions for equality we demand the right to have our own villains, exactly as other people have them. ... We do not have to account to anybody, we are not to sit for anybody's examination and nobody is old enough to call on us to answer. We came before them and will leave after them. We are what we are, we are good for ourselves, we will not change, nor do we want to."

      Delete
    9. Judaism is not a race, as evident from the "ism". It is the culture of the Jewish race (converts are considered racially Jewish).

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    10. WiO,

      I am not sure I understand what the big issue is. If Israel is already a Jewish state, as you seem to suggest, the why is Netanyahu pushing the issue? It seems he is looking for something different than what is currently the case. My guess is that he is trying to deal with the dilemma posed by the demographic trend where Jews may be outnumbered in Israel by non-Jews in the not too distant future. There is also the Jew/non-Jew problem if one were to absorb the West Bank and Gaza strip.

      My impression of your approach is too blow smoke about the issue while avoiding these thorny problems by saying stuff like "research it yourself".

      Delete
    11. Hardly Ash. But we have explained it numerous times and no answer seems to get thru to you.

      You don't need to understand WHY it's a big issue to Jews. Accept its our RIGHT to have BE a big issue.

      Delete
    12. I don't believe I have noticed your explanation in the past. Maybe it is my mashed potato brain but, in any case, I'd appreciate it if you would provide the simple explanation again.

      Delete
    13. allenMon Jan 06, 12:44:00 PM EST
      Israel was purposefully established as a national home for Jews. One is a Jew by birth or conversion. I guess you could say it the homeland for Jews by ethnicity or inclination.

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    14. allen: "Our habit of constantly and zealously answering to any rabble has already done us a lot of harm and will do much more. ... We do not have to apologize for anything. We are a people as all other peoples; we do not have any intentions to be better than the rest. As one of the first conditions for equality we demand the right to have our own villains, exactly as other people have them. ... We do not have to account to anybody, we are not to sit for anybody's examination and nobody is old enough to call on us to answer. We came before them and will leave after them. We are what we are, we are good for ourselves, we will not change, nor do we want to."

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    15. Do as you wish but the Netanyahu is currently trying to force others to recognize Israel as a Jewish state which makes it an issue for non-Jews. On the face of it it appears to be an unreasonable request given the apparent discrimination it entails.

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    16. No it makes it an issue for the Palestinians. Not you.

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  10. On November 29, 1947, the UN General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into two states, one Jewish and the other Arab. The UN partition plan divided the country in such a way that each state would have a majority of its own population, although some Jewish settlements would fall within the proposed Palestinian state and many Palestinians would become part of the proposed Jewish state. The territory designated to the Jewish state would be slightly larger than the Palestinian state (56 percent and 43 percent of Palestine, respectively) on the assumption that increasing numbers of Jews would immigrate there.


    A JEWISH STATE and an Arab state.

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    1. Actually a Jewish state and a PALESTINIAN state.

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    2. I may need your help again soon, Ash.

      I keep losing my google name.

      It just seems to all of a sudden go away.....and this time I am having the devil's own time getting it back up again......

      If 20 some or however many there are moslem countries can define themselves as being moslem states what the hell is wrong with Israel defining itself as a Jewish state?

      Particularly with their history.....

      I think this argument is silly in the extreme....

      Delete
    3. You need to login in to google. Just go to google.com and up in the right corner you can find where you log in. If you are here at the bar you should be able to select under "reply as" the google account selection and it will force you to sign in. You do have to clear the hurdle of knowing your user id (google email addy) and password. Pretty high bar that!

      With respect to the question of the thread Quirk below said it nicely. To be a Jewish state (or a Moslem one) implies that there is some discrimination against non-Jews or Non Moslems. Just because some Moslem states do it doesn't make it right.

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    4. No, a jewish state and an ARAB state.

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    5. From YOUR unattributed citation:

      "The territory designated to the Jewish state would be slightly larger than the Palestinian state (56 percent and 43 percent of Palestine, respectively) on the assumption that increasing numbers of Jews would immigrate there. "

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    6. A Jewish and an Arab state.

      Call the arab state anything you wish... Fuckistan... for all I care.

      After all there is no P in arabic... Fuckistan sounds closer to it...

      Delete
  11. .

    To my mind this is all bullshit and you are missing the main point.

    The Jews of Israel have declared themselves a Jewish state. They have the power to enforce it and they are doing it. Israel speaks of itself as a secular state yet it is the Chief Rabbinate that determines who is a Jew.

    I personably find this objectionable coming from American culture and tradition. However, it doesn't mean shit what I think. The Jews have declared Israel a Jewish state. The Palestinians and the Arabs find it objectionable. Doesn't matter. The Jews have declared themselves a Jewish state.

    The Jews don't NEED world recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. They have the legal means and the force to declare it and maintain it. They WANT world recognition of Israel as a Jewish state as justification for their actions now and in the future.

    The PA and most of the world have recognized Israel as a sovereign state. Why should they or we be forced to voice our acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state? Take your Zionism and shove it.

    IMO, if Israel continues on its current path, it will at some point have to make a choice between being a Jewish state or being a democracy. That is its choice. There is no reason for trying to force the rest of the world to recognize and voice approval for the fact.

    .

    .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "However, it doesn't mean shit what I think."

      Quirk, at his very best.....

      I find this eminently reasonable.

      ;)

      Delete
    2. It doesn't, come to think on it, mean shit what I think either.

      Delete
    3. One might ask the two or three lapsed Catholics here among us why the Vatican should have the right to be thought of as a Catholic state?

      They even enforce their will through the use of Swiss mercenaries......

      Surely this goes directly against our sacred American values and traditions and laws.......

      Delete
    4. I am calling for an American expedition to the Vatican to force our American sense of values and traditions and laws on this unruly group.........I call this effort cultural imperialism of the most benevolent and just kind.......who the hell does the Pope think he is anyway?......George Washington?......

      Delete
    5. .

      Bob, do you ever check things out before opening your mouth?

      A rule I usually follow in an argument, never ask a question you don't know the answer to.

      http://blogs.loc.gov/law/2012/07/the-current-legislation-on-citizenship-in-the-vatican-city-state/

      .

      Delete
    6. I feel certain Miss T, Quirk, rat's ass, and Deuce will all jump to arms and volunteer and join me in this noble effort.....

      Delete
    7. The Vatican is packed with Jews, that is for certain Quirk.....we need to run them out of there......

      Anyway you get the drift of my argument, regardless of some meaningless detail you may throw up.....barff, barff....

      Delete
    8. .

      Meaningless detail? You mean fact.

      Good Lord, you are a moron.

      .

      Delete
    9. Quirk: Take your Zionism and shove it.

      Thanks Quirk, I am sure you would be the part of the cheering masses when Jews are being sub machined gunned down.

      This is why Zionism is important. To make pricks like you? Irrelevant

      Delete
  12. Nonsense, if Israel claims and receives acquiescence from other states that it is a Jewish state, then Israel has legal standing to demand that it remains a Jewish state. The point is that Israel can call itself a Jewish state but it cannot expect that others need to recognize it as such. Israel cannot expect that actions that it may take to enforce compliance with its declaration will be acceptable by normal western standards.

    No western democracy would make such a claim. No US state or city could make such a claim. Why is that? Simply stated, western democracies and the US have decided that such a claim is wrong for their societies. Why should any of them accept that it is right for Israel?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We should immediately end all diplomatic ties and trade and all ties of any kind to all the moslem states, along with Israel......there is not a legitimate state in all the middle east......and with the Vatican too.....the Vatican, Israel, all those moslem states......all cesspools of anti-Americanism.......wife is saying we are driving into Wal-Mart.......she at least is an American !!

      out

      Delete
    2. (we go to Wal-Mart, a truly great American corporation, to buy cheap shit from China)

      out
      out

      Delete
    3. .

      Words have meaning and Israel is fully aware of that fact.

      They still try to use UN Resolution 181 as justification for their declaration of independence in 1948 even though we know Resolution 181 provided no legal basis.

      They continue to use the weasel wording, the difference in meaning of a single word, ‘the’, between the English and French/Russian versions of Resolution 242 as justification for continuing to occupy the West Bank.

      In 2001, Netanyahu bragged that he had deceived Bill Clinton and destroyed the Oslo Accords by the open ended words that were injected into the agreements.

      Now they insist that the world acknowledge them as a Jewish state even though that acknowledgment would offer them no more security than they have right now.

      It is obvious they want that wording for two reasons: first, as another obstacle to the peace process and second, if they get approval and recognition of the wording, as a justification of any actions they must take to maintain Israel as a Jewish state, basically, a pre-approval for any of those actions.

      .

      Delete
    4. “… The State of Israel is thus not legally derived from the partition plan, but rests (as do most other states in the world) on assertion of independence by its people and government, on the vindication of that independence by arms against assault by other states, and on the establishment of orderly government within territory under its stable control.

      By the time armistice agreements were reached in 1949 between Israel and its immediate Arab neighbors (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Transjordan) with the assistance of UN mediator Dr. Ralph Bunche – Resolution 181 had become irrelevant, and the armistice agreements addressed new realities created by the war. Over subsequent years, the UN simply abandoned the recommendations contained in Resolution 181, as its ideas were drained of all relevance by events. Moreover, the Arabs continued to rejected 181 after the war when they themselves controlled the West Bank (1948-1967) which Jordan invaded in the course of the war and annexed illegally.

      Attempts by Palestinians in the past decade (and recently by the ICJ) to ‘roll back the clock’ and resuscitate Resolution 181 more than five decades after they rejected it ‘as if nothing had happened’ are a baseless ploy designed to use Resolution 181 as leverage to bring about a greater Israeli withdrawal from parts of western Palestine and to gain a broader base from which to continue to attack an Israel with even less defendable borders. Both Palestinians and their Arab brethren in neighboring countries rendered the plan null and void by their own subsequent aggressive actions.

      Professor Stone wrote about this ‘novelty of resurrection’ in 1981 when he analyzed a similar attempt by pro-Palestinians ‘experts’ at the UN to rewrite the history of the conflict. (Their writings were termed ‘Studies’.) Stone called it “revival of the dead”

      “To attempt to show … that Resolution 181(II) ‘remains’ in force in 1981 is thus an undertaking even more miraculous than would be the revival of the dead. It is an attempt to give life to an entity that the Arab states had themselves aborted before it came to maturity and birth. To propose that Resolution 181(II) can be treated as if it has binding force in 1981, [EH the year the book was written] for the benefit of the same Arab states, who by their aggression destroyed it ab initio,15 also violates ‘general principles of law,’ such as those requiring claimants to equity to come ‘with clean hands,’ and forbidding a party who has unlawfully repudiated a transaction from holding the other party to terms that suit the later expediencies of the repudiating party.”16 [italics by author].

      Resolution 181 had been tossed into the waste bin of history, along with the Partition Plans that preceded it.

      Delete
    5. .

      And yet, it wasn't all that long ago that there were some here citing Resolution 181 as justification for Israel declaring independence.

      And even today, in one of the posts upstream, one here cites some unattributed link talking about the terms of Resolution 181.

      Go figure.

      .

      Delete
    6. .

      And speaking of unattributed links...

      .

      Delete
    7. The UN adopted Resolution 242 in late November 1967, five months after the Six-Day War ended. It took that long because intense and deliberate negotiations were needed to carefully craft a document that met the Arabs' demand for a return of land, and Israel's requirement that the Arabs recognize Israel's legitimacy, to make a lasting peace. It also took that long because each word in the resolution was deliberately chosen, and certain words were deliberately omitted, according to negotiators who drafted the resolution.

      So although Arab officials claim Resolution 242 requires Israel to withdraw from all territory it captured in June 1967, nowhere in the resolution is that demand delineated. Nor did those involved in the negotiations and drafting of the resolution want such a requirement. Instead, they say Resolution 242 explicitly and intentionally omitted the terms 'the territories' or 'all territories.' The wording of UN Resolution 242 clearly reflects the contention that none of the territories were occupied territories taken by force in an unjust war.

      Because the Arabs were clearly the aggressors, nowhere in UN Security Council Resolutions 242 is Israel branded as an invader or unlawful occupier of the territories. The wording of UN Resolution 242 clearly reflects the contention that none of the territories were occupied territories taken by force in an unjust war.

      Given that the Palestinian arabs never had soverignty over the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Jordan had seized them illegally in 1948, Professor, Judge Stephen M. Schwebel, former President of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Hague, concluded:

      "State [Israel] acting in lawful exercise of its right of self-defense may seize and occupy foreign territory as long as such seizure and occupation are necessary to its self-defense. ... Where the prior holder [Jordan] of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense [Israel] has, against that prior holder, better title.
      "As between Israel, reacting defensively in 1948 and 1967, on the one hand, and her Arab neighbors, acting aggressively, in 1948 and 1967, on the other, Israel has the better title in the territory of what was Palestine, including the whole of Jerusalem, than do Jordan and Egypt."

      Delete
    8. Quirk

      Re: lack of attribution

      What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I did not hear you complain about the other guy. In your failing to do so, I do not owe you the courtesy of attribution. As the other guy said, "google it."

      Delete
    9. .

      Why should I have complained about the other guy. That was not the first time he quoted that and I saw the attribution previously, you friggin asshole. And going by the standard you established, I can only assume you are either a liar or racist.

      Spare me the bullshit.

      .

      Delete
    10. I'm not sure who the other guy is you are referring to but that strikes me as a poor excuse. In my opinion it is a courtesy to the original author and publisher to make proper reference to the source. In publishing and journalism you must. At least you, allen, used italics. Your buddy WiO didn't even do that (nor quotation marks) in his first post which can lead the reader to think he actually wrote the piece.

      Delete
    11. .

      As to Resolution 242, as I said, it was weasel worded.

      .

      Delete
    12. Ash, are you to lazy to google it?

      man, grow a pair.

      Delete
    13. You are the one who appears to be a plagiarist. Have at it and enjoy.

      Delete
    14. Oh ash, I am a plagiarist?

      By what standard? After do you call ALL here the same for doing what I did?

      No? then shut the fuck up asshole...

      Delete
    15. 242 was worded exactly as the parties wanted. Lashing out at things one does not like will not change them.

      Delete
    16. Quirk: Take your Zionism and shove it.

      Thanks Quirk, I am sure you would be the part of the cheering masses when Jews are being sub machined gunned down.

      This is why Zionism is important. To make pricks like you? Irrelevant

      Delete
  13. There are plenty of Americans who would like to declare the US as a Christian State, and the strongest opponents have been US Jews.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ...aside from the obstacle called the Constitution.

      Delete
    2. .

      Hey, Jen, Happy New Year.

      :oI

      (As I recall, you don't like smiley faces.)

      .

      Delete
    3. JennyMon Jan 06, 04:20:00 PM EST
      There are plenty of Americans who would like to declare the US as a Christian State, and the strongest opponents have been US Jews.

      There are plenty of Americans that support Nambla... What's your point?

      Delete

    4. What is "Occupation" - Sun Dec 22, 10:49:00 AM EST

      I wonder how long til the Palestinians get lucky and murder a few dozen Israeli kids…



      Delete
    5. Thanks Eleanor for reminding me to explain what that quote meant.

      The palestinians have conducted over 200 terrorist attacks against civilians in the 120 days in Israel. Also in the last 3 months HUNDREDS of attacks against Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai by the Palesitnians as well have lead to dozens of deaths.

      In retaliation Egypt has bulldozed 1200 tunnels connecting the strip to the sinai. The Brothers of the Palestinians, the Egyptians are getting pissed...

      Delete
    6. Jenny,

      Re: Christian state

      You must hang with some really strange people. The last time I heard anything near that was in the 50's on television.

      Delete

  14. Monday, January 06, 2014

    Netanyahu’s demand that Israel is a Jewish state is either racist or fundamentalist and is objectionable from an American point of view on human rights grounds either way.


    Nice choice, Hey deuce have you stopped beating your wife?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There are Jews of every racial background living in Israel. It is about as white as New York. The entire argument is adolescent.

      Israel was established as a refuge for Jews, skin color or nationality notwithstanding.

      Delete

  15. Abusive Ad Hominem occurs when an attack on the character or other irrelevant personal qualities of the opposition is offered as evidence against their position. Such attacks are often effective distractions ("red herrings"), because the opponents feel it necessary to defend themselves, thus being distracted from the topic of the debate.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Our self professed professional asshole Whackopathrat is an expert on the Ad Hominem, Eleanor Newman.

      It's practically all he does.

      Everyone is sick of his ass here.

      Delete
  16. All this talk is a big waste of energy.

    The fact is moslems are pledged to destroy Jews.....in their book......and as Martha Gellhorn wrote the arabs of Palestine are world class haters......"they eat hate, they roll in hate, they love hate"......

    It is sadistic to sit around and insist that Other People......never one's noble self.....but Other People live in peace with those that have wanted to kill them from centuries ago.....

    Quirk you go run off with Jenny and live in Arabia......try Saudi first.....then if you survive that go to 'Palestine', or Gaza.......

    What a CROCK

    Bullshitting about our American values.......the MB wants to replace American values with SHARIA HERE NOW !!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Whole discussion pisses me off......

      Delete

    2. “Bigotry is an odd thing.
      To be bigoted you have to be absolutely sure you are right and nothing makes that surety and righteousness like continence.
      Continence is the foe of heresy.”
      ― Ernest Hemingway

      Delete
    3. You really shouldn't have written all that anti-Semitic crap into The Sun Also Rises, Hemeroid.

      I realize you felt uncomfortable with it much later, but you never issued an apology, either.

      Delete

    4. You're projecting, Robert.

      Think of how much easier it'd be ...

      If you would just acknowledge YOUR errors.

      Do it now, while an apology is not required.

      If you wait, the hardliners may gain the upper hand, here a the Hegemony of Character,
      they will demand an apology before the sanctions regime can end.

      Do I now, while the opportunity for compromise still exists!

      Delete
  17. Thankfully there is THE HOUSE OF SUNNY ANNUAL REPORT to turn to when things get unsupportable....

    http://houseofsunny.tv/2013/annual-report/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies

    1. “He was Farmer O-Bob-ma Fudd, but now he is Anonymous
      ...and so my friends, you'll just have to carry on.

      The dream is over.”


      bob

      Delete
    2. And you will always and forever be the self professed professional asshole Whackopathrat, the man without a life.

      Delete
    3. Roberto - el Loco CagaderoMon Jan 06, 06:43:00 PM EST


      Remember this, Anonymous . . .

      “You are who you are today because of the mistakes you made yesterday.”

      ― The Prolific Penman

      If you were to acknowledge some of the mistakes you have made, well . . .


      Who you will be tomorrow is dependent upon your actions today.

      Delete
  18. Time for Palestinian leadership spring clean

    Saeb Erekat wakes up to the peace swindle; Mahmoud Abbas still in cloud cuckoo land


    By Stuart Littlewood

    The Times of Israel reports that Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erekat,
    who recently resigned (again) but mysteriously remains in post,
    said in an interview that the Palestinians will not agree to extending the latest talks with Israel one minute beyond the allotted nine months, ending in April.

    “The objective is to reach an agreement on all issues pertaining to a final-status deal.
    And according to the wording of the agreement with [US Secretary of State John] Kerry, there will be no transitional or interim agreement,” Erekat said.

    He added that the US administration was trying to cut the talks short to pre-empt any attempt to extend them.
    In the meantime ,Israel was trying to thwart the peace process – and US efforts — in “every way”,
    the latest example being an Israeli bill to annex the Jordan Valley,
    which passed a key ministerial committee last week.

    Reality dawning


    Proper talks, which started last July,
    have not been held for two month owing to stalemate and unofficial meetings had been fruitless.

    Erekat said Washington has yet to present the two sides with an official offer.
    Where exactly the US gets its authority to make any “offer” without reference to, and full compliance with,
    international law and previous UN resolutions has never been clear to this writer.

    We’re also told that Abbas, the de facto Palestinian president who is well past his clear-your-desk date,
    has written to Barack Obama that the Palestine Liberation Organization,
    which represents the Palestinians to the outside world, will not accept Israel as a Jewish state,
    will not accept a Palestinian state with 1967 borders without Jerusalem,
    and will not accept any Israeli on Palestinian land, sea, air and border crossings after Israel’s withdrawal is completed.

    Nor will Abbas accept any solution that does not grant potentially millions of refugees their right to return and be compensated, as per UN Resolution 194, and allow for the release of prisoners.


    None of this is new or surprising; it’s standard stuff and should be unobjectionable,
    supported as it is by UN resolutions (unimplemented) and international law (unenforced).

    According to the Times of Israel, Erekat said Abbas presented these preconditions to the Arab League,
    which passed them to UN Security Council member states.

    This is Erekat’s strategy for appealing to the European Union to recognize the Palestinian state while at the same time appealing to various international bodies to sign treaties and protocols that would enable the Palestinian Authority to file a suit against Israel in the International Criminal Court (ICC) at The Hague.

    Erekat has also produced a crime-sheet of Israeli moves that undermine the peace process.
    Again, what’s new?
    Israel has been sticking two fingers up, for the whole world to see, all the years Erekat and Abbas have been involved.

    http://www.redressonline.com/2014/01/time-for-palestinian-leadership-spring-clean/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies


    1. In the name of God, go!


      The confidential Palestine Papers, leaked to Al-Jazeera in 2011, revealed the shambolic conduct of the so-called peace process and how the Palestinian team allowed the Israelis to walk all over them, with US help.

      One of the leak’s sources, a French-Palestinian lawyer and former adviser to the PLO, Ziyad Clot,
      said in an article in the Guardian newspaper that the peace process was

      “an inequitable and destructive political process which had been based on the assumption that the Palestinians could in effect negotiate their rights and achieve self-determination while enduring the hardship of the Israeli occupation”.


      They were
      “a deceptive farce whereby biased terms were unilaterally imposed by Israel and systematically endorsed by the US and EU”.

      They
      “excluded for the most part the great majority of the Palestinian people: the seven million Palestinian refugees”. And, he said, “the PLO, given its structure, was not in a position to represent all Palestinian rights and interests”.

      So why is Erekat still engaging in it?

      He was educated in political science in the US and conflict studies in England,
      so should be articulate and media-savvy. He became chief negotiator in 1995.

      He occupies a king-pin position in the world’s hottest hot-spot but how often do we see him in the Western media?
      When was the last time?

      He is possibly the least successful negotiator in the world, and where has that got the Palestinians?
      He also has a habit of resigning then popping up again. Is there really no-one else?

      Furthermore, there’s still no sign that Abbas himself has got his backside into gear and commenced the necessary preparations for Palestine to activate the ICC and bring long-overdue war crimes charges against Israel.

      It’s also a bit late in the day for Erekat to suddenly see the light.
      Does any of this actually take us nearer a sane justice process, as opposed to the shameful “kangaroo” peace negotiations that Erekat and Abbas seem addicted to?

      As Oliver Cromwell told the English Parliament in 1653:
      “You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately… Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!”

      It might be appropriate for those same words to be addressed to Erekat and Abbas,
      and indeed the entire PLO and Palestinian Authority – the whole caboodle a futile waste of space.


      http://www.redressonline.com/2014/01/time-for-palestinian-leadership-spring-clean/

      Delete
    2. Roberto - el Loco CagaderoMon Jan 06, 06:00:00 PM EST



      "The so-called “Palestinian autonomous areas” are Bantustans.
      These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli Apartheid system."

      - N. Mandela

      The Palestinians are in their "Ghettos", on their "Reserves"

      Palestinian lackeys rule over the fractured and factionalized Palestinians, $100 million a month the Israeli pay their house boy Arabs in baksheesh.

      Just as the Germans used Ashkenazi guards in the Warsaw Ghetto.

      The first commander of the Warsaw ghetto was Józef Szeryński, a Polish-Jewish police colonel.

      Warsaw Ghetto archivist Emanuel Ringelblum has described the cruelty of the ghetto police as ...
      "at times greater than that of the Germans, the Ukrainians and the Latvians."

      Delete
  19. Once across the border in Israel, they try to claim asylum.

    "All of us are fleeing genocide, fleeing dictatorship regimes. Looking for protection,"
    says the African Refugee Development Center's Mutasim Ali, who came to Israel from Darfur.

    "(A migrant) doesn't care where he gets it.
    We know it's too difficult to cross the border making our way to Israel, but that's the only option at the time."

    The asylum seekers complain that the Israeli government isn't viewing their goal as legitimate,
    but rather sees them as migrant workers.

    "The Israeli government leaves them in limbo from one side.
    The Israeli government calls them infiltrators,
    that they came here for work and that they are all criminals,"

    says Orit Marom of ASSAF, Aid Organization for Refugees and Asylum Seekers.

    "On the other side, they never check their asylum requests."

    The Israeli government refers to the asylum seekers as illegal migrants who are in the country to work.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/05/world/meast/israel-african-migrants/

    ReplyDelete
  20. “The problem is that people who want human rights and came here to a democratic country, searching for a safe place, are sent to prison, they are treated as prisoners, as criminals, as a cancer, some people call them cancers in Israel.”

    The new government measure has drawn criticism from the UN refugee agency. It accuses Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of not conforming to the 1951 world treaty on the treatment of refugees. However the Israeli leader says the migrants are not refugees but people who are breaking the law.

    Some 60,000 African migrants currently live in Israel.

    http://www.euronews.com/2014/01/06/un-condemns-israel-s-new-migrant-detention-policy/

    The key question is the identification of a regime that practices
    systematic oppression and domination by one group over another.


    How then does it apply to Israel?


    Israel as a "Jewish democratic state" is "democratic" for Jews and "Jewish" for 'Arabs'.
    and other 'Darkies'

    http://mg.co.za/article/2013-10-04-00-is-there-a-better-adjective-than-apartheid-to-describe-israel/


    ReplyDelete

  21. It’s one of the viral rumours of the start of 2014: North Korean leader Kim Jong-un is said to have executed his uncle by having him stripped and thrown to a pack of 120 dogs who had previously been starved for three days. It’s also claimed he invited around 300 officials to observe the gruesome hour-long spectacle.

    The source for this rumour? Initially a state-run Chinese newspaper supposedly close to the North Korean leadership, the Wen Wei Po, which was then quoted by The Straits Times in Singapore before the story found its way to the Western media. In any case, the rumour is yet to be either confirmed or denied by official North Korean sources. A denial may well come. In the meantime the story has become fodder for some Western commentators as ravenous as Kim’s pack of hounds to chew over whether or not the story – as incredible as it sounds – might in fact be true. After all, this came out of North Korea…

    North Koreans destroy effigy of South Korean president Lee Myung-ba

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. http://www.euronews.com/2014/01/03/was-kim-jong-uns-uncle-fed-to-the-dogs-thats-not-really-the-point/

      Delete

  22. Israel’s abortion law now among world’s most liberal

    Despite its conservative leanings, government approves free pregnancy termination for nearly all women, and it barely causes a ripple
    By Debra Kamin

    Read more: Israel's abortion law now among world's most liberal | The Times of Israel

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-abortion-law-now-among-worlds-most-liberal/#ixzz2pfKlsxEo

    ReplyDelete
    Replies

    1. This year, the rabbis cited
      “the extreme seriousness involved in killing fetuses, which is like actual murder.”


      http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/chief-rabbis-of-israel-praise-efforts-to-reduce-abortions#ixzz2l0g8NiJB

      Delete


  23. Israel’s Ethical Challenges

    January 6, 2014

    A bitter irony of modern Israel is that the Jewish people have historically been at the forefront of tolerance,
    reason and egalitarianism but now have leaders who demand a Jewish religious state accompanied by the repression of Palestinian Muslims, a dilemma addressed...


    By Winslow Myers

    While Secretary of State John Kerry admirably shuttles around like the Energizer Bunny in search of Middle East peace, is there anything new to say about the intractable tension between Israelis on the one hand and predominantly Muslim peoples, especially the Palestinians, on the other?

    One layer of the unspoken is Israel’s implicit status as a nuclear power.

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and President Barack Obama draw red lines in the sand concerning the threat of Iranian nukes, but say little about the only viable long-term solution:

    a negotiated and verified nuclear-free zone in the Eastern Mediterranean
    — even better, a planet-wide nuclear-free zone.

    Nuclear war anywhere on earth has become more unthinkable as it has become more possible.
    ....

    The moral basis of the secular state, the tolerance and compassion that flows from the acknowledgement of universal rights, is ironically a major premise of the Jewish ethical tradition. An unbeliever once asked Rabbi Hillel if he could sum up the Torah while standing on one foot.
    The simple answer was ...

    “What is hateful to yourself, do not to your fellow man.
    That is the whole of the Torah and the rest is but commentary.”


    ReplyDelete
    Replies

    1. The war... was an unnecessary condition of affairs, and might have been avoided if forebearance and wisdom had been practiced on both sides.

      - Robert E. Lee

      Delete
    2. That's where Lee made his mistake right there. "Both sides". There ain't no sides. We'z Amurricans dangit.

      Delete
  24. Wow, ten in a row by ratboy.....that is really something.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's impossible to tell whether a post is made by rat or boogie. I scroll them all.

      Delete
  25. The first duty of a blog administrator should be to protect his bloggers from a freak.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies

    1. Abusive Ad Hominem occurs when an attack on the character or other irrelevant personal qualities of the opposition — such as ..... — is offered as evidence against their position.

      Such attacks are often effective distractions ("red herrings"), because the opponents feel it necessary to defend themselves, thus being distracted from the topic of the debate.


      heh, heh, heh


      Delete
  26. “That there are men in all countries who get their living by war,
    and by keeping up the quarrels of nations, is as shocking as it is true;

    but when those who are concerned in the government of a country,
    make it their study to sow discord and cultivate predjudices between nations,
    it becomes the more unpardonable.”

    ― Thomas Paine, Rights of Man

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Antony LoewensteinMon Jan 06, 07:33:00 PM EST

      How Israel’s weapons industry thrives on ever-greater conflict

      One of the contributing factors has been the massive use of shielded or automatic unmanned vehicles, which allows for wars in which there is no proportion between the risk taken by one side and the risk incurred by the other.

      This has reshuffled all the moral, political and legal categories which had been applied to warfare.
      In the past, all these campaigns were based on the assumption that this is a conflict in which two parties accept the possibility of killing or dying, but here, in almost all cases, one party kills and the other dies.

      The military industries, which develop products for conflicts of the Gazan type, and coax the Israeli army to purchase them, are playing a pivotal role here. The result is disturbing, because it seems to me that the war in Gaza has become inherent to the Israeli political system, possibly a part of our system of government.

      This was particularly noticeable during operation Pillar of Defense which took place during the election campaign, but support for it unified all the contenders for power.

      http://antonyloewenstein.com/2013/05/30/how-israels-weapons-industry-thrives-on-ever-greater-conflict/

      Delete
  27. World's Top 5 arms exporters

    I could tell you where Israel fits, but google it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We need to deduct the amount Israel makes from selling arms to China from their yearly stipend.

      Delete
    2. Sounds fair, in fact, how about Israel sells it's weapons to anyone it wants to and give up the 3 billion Israel gets completely?

      Then America can rely on the arabs for stability and security in the middle east.

      Delete
    3. Obama is heading America in that direction anyway, might as well get ahead of the curve.

      Delete
  28. WiO: As a form of racism, anti-Zionism is worse than anti-Semitism.

    You should get a gig on MSNBC, everything is about race there. And how can anti-Zionist Jews (or any other anti-Zionists) be racist? Their objection is against a nationalist movement that is exclusively for Jews and no others, precisely on the grounds that such a thing IS racist.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks Ms T for putting words in my mouth,

      The arab world? has 21 nations already and comprises 899/900th of the middle east.

      Zionism is about the Jewish right to self determination and nation status in it's homeland, Israel.

      1/900th of the middle east for the Jews. 899/900th of the middle east for the arabs.

      it's in fact quite telling your hatred for Israel and the Jewish right for self determination and your silence about how the arab world already has 21 nations that squat on the 899/900th of the middle east SQUASHING any and all others from self determination.

      Can you say you are a hypocrite?

      Tell your Lord jesus christ about your double standard..

      Delete
  29. WiO: It's really not up to those that would shove Jews into gas chambers to define Who is a Jew in Israel.

    Why not? You said it's racism to be anti-Zionist. Race means a person's physical characteristics. So it should be an easy matter to identify the Jew, no? Big schnozz or something like that, right?

    ReplyDelete
  30. Replies
    1. Aha ! You better be nice to boogie, Ash, he may not need your ass any longer.

      But why does it do that, flip out once in a while?

      But I think I'm getting the hang of getting it back now.

      Delete
    2. Aha ! You better be nice to boogie, booger, he may not need your ass any longer.

      (My friend Ash had the bad habit of always picking his nose online)

      ;)

      Delete
    3. When I pointed this out to him one time, he agreed he had the habit, but refused to change or apologize.

      Delete
    4. I admire that, in an odd way.

      Delete
    5. You mean I have told you how enough times already you don't need me anymore? My, my, it makes the teacher proud when the student climbs even higher upon Mount Wisdom!

      I flip a boobie your way... Errrr...booger.

      Delete
  31. Allen: Israel was established as a refuge for Jews, skin color or nationality notwithstanding.

    And yet you and WiO are suggesting anti-Semitism is a form of racism. Go figure.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'll figure it for you, Miss T. Obviously Whoopie and Sammy Davis are/were of a different race than the mainstream Jewish folks. It's just that they allow good hearted converts. At least in some branches. All the Jewish mother stuff notwithstanding. You could be Jewish too if you were sincere about it, nevertheless you'd stand out in a Jewish crowd. At least that is how I've got it 'figured'.

      Delete
    2. Then, like WiO says below, there was all this selecting of certain people for the gas chambers......

      Delete
    3. But, then, what do I know?

      I'm just a pale faced peckerwood with a circumcised peckerhead.

      Delete
    4. Which very well might have qualified me for the gas chambers back in the day.

      Delete
    5. T,

      You just do not get it. When one converts to Judaism, one becomes racially a Jew. There are texts that go even further, but I am not about to introduce those.

      You are fixated with skin color as a mark of something (who knows). Jews do not care: a Jew is a Jew and his father is Abraham, whether he comes from a 100 generation line or entered the mikva this afternoon.

      Delete
  32. Dear Ms t,

    As sincerely as possible I wish for you and your family the racism that the Jewish people have had over the centuries.

    Go figure...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As for myself, I return good for good, and good for evil, that good may abound, and the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ might be glorified.

      Delete
    2. Which is why you called me a peckerwood.

      :):)

      I liked you better back when you were a Taoist. You weren't spouting so much non sense about the Jews back then.....

      ;)

      Delete
    3. Yo, WiO,

      Do you as a Jew regularly experience racism in America these days? I am honestly curious as to whether it is much of an issue in current America. Do you experience the equivalent of "driving while black"?

      Delete
    4. Your Lord? Jesus Christ?

      Would throw your slimy Jew hating ass into a fire pit for all eternity..

      Sure hope you meet him and he gets to review your black evil anti-Semitic heart.

      Delete
    5. AshMon Jan 06, 09:15:00 PM EST
      Yo, WiO,

      Do you as a Jew regularly experience racism in America these days? I am honestly curious as to whether it is much of an issue in current America. Do you experience the equivalent of "driving while black"

      Honestly?

      Racism against Jews is now moved into a different agenda.

      On college campuses? To be an openly Jewish person is to invite violent anti-Jewish, anti-Israel retribution. Slurs, hazing and violence against Jews is not considered a hated crime, let alone a crime.

      In fact, we now have hired armed guards at our community centers to deal with the terrorist threats.

      The cops are not our enemies. The PC police are.

      But not to worry, SOME of us are not our Grandfather's Jews.

      Delete
    6. I didn't realize you were a student.

      Delete
  33. .

    Quirk you go run off with Jenny and live in Arabia......try Saudi first.....then if you survive that go to 'Palestine', or Gaza.......

    What a CROCK

    Bullshitting about our American values.......the MB wants to replace American values with SHARIA HERE NOW !!



    My. My.

    El Loco speaks from the bowels of anonymity.

    Why in the world should I go anywhere? You are so hepped up about all things Israel, an actual AIPAC member if truth be told, an expert on all things kosher, the biggest Israel-phile here. Why don't you go to live in Israel?

    Don't talk to me about American values you stupid hick.

    .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. .

      If you have a specific point you want to argue, post it. Otherwise, leave me out of your little hissy fits.

      .

      Delete
    2. Oh, my, bob, I don't believe Quirk is a fan of yours anymore.

      Delete
    3. QuirkMon Jan 06, 09:15:00 PM EST
      Why in the world should I go anywhere? You are so hepped up about all things Israel, an actual AIPAC member if truth be told, an expert on all things kosher, the biggest Israel-phile here. Why don't you go to live in Israel?
      Don't talk to me about American values you stupid hick.


      AIPAC is an American organization Quirk. I KNOW it doesn't fit inside your articulate, glib mind, but it is. Loyal American citizens doing their constitutional right to lobby Congress with an issue that is important to them. You denigrate that effort. That is UN-American

      Delete
    4. .

      We've been through this before.

      Of course, AIPAC has the right to lobby Congress. However, IMO, they act as agent for a foreign government and should register as such.

      I denigrate AIPAC and that makes me Un-American?

      You have been lobbying for Israel too long.

      .

      Delete
    5. You denigrate Americans and an American organization exercising their constitutional rights.

      THAT makes your actions un-American.

      Delete
    6. .

      I denigrate Americans whose sole purpose is to promote the policies of a foreign country.

      If you want to call me un-American for that, I can live with it.

      .

      Delete
  34. Quirk: Take your Zionism and shove it.

    Thanks Quirk, I am sure you would be the part of the cheering masses when Jews are being sub machined gunned down.

    This is why Zionism is important. To make pricks like you? Irrelevant

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. .

      You are an idiot, WiO. When your wife disagrees with you do you accuse her of wanting to sub-machine gun you. You evidently don't understand how childish you sound.

      .

      Delete
    2. You don't understand WIOs wife's armament.

      Delete
    3. .

      If you like your Zionism, you can keep your Zionism.

      I told you what the consequences of it will ultimately be for Israel in my post above.

      But please don't try to shove the concept down my throat. As far as I'm concerned, its pure bullshit. As for it having any effect on me at all, that's ridiculous. You seem to be under the mistaken assumption I really give a shit.

      .

      Delete
    4. No Quirk I KNOW you don't give a shit.

      That's why your kind is irrelevant.

      Delete
    5. .

      Nonsense.

      The subject at hand on this stream is Zionism and Bibi's demand that the Palestinians agree to recognize Israel as a Jewish state before there is a peace settlement on the West Bank. My opinion on that matter is as relevant as yours since we are both on the same blog discussing the same issue.

      My opinion on it is that the issue itself is 'irrelevant' since there is no way that there will ever be a peace settlement. If Zionism weren't an issue there would be plenty more that Bibi could use to queer the deal. For that reason, I don't really give a shit about it.

      However, what is relevant (at least to this discussion and at least as much as yours) is my opinion on it.

      That opinion remains,

      - The demand to 'recognize Israel as a Jewish state' is a non starter but not a deal breaker because there is no deal to break.

      - It is the height of presumption for Bibi to demand that anyone other than those he governs accept Israel as 'Jewish state'. If someone wants to do it, that's their business.

      - If the Israelis want a Jewish state they can have one and any repercussions that flow from that.

      - I believe anyone who equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is a moron.

      - I personally am opposed to the idea of Zionism. The concept is foreign to everything I have learned growing up as an American.

      - IMO, anyone who thinks that because a person disagrees with him on this subject that person would enjoy or cheer if Jews were gunned down by machine guns is one sick puppy. There is no other way to describe it.

      You and your buddy Bob are irrational.

      .
      -

      Delete
  35. It's the vodka for Christ's sake. I know Q so well.

    It's the vodka, and the fact that he can't reconcile his uber modern view that "Life Sucks" with his subliminal yearnings to remain in the arms of Mother Church.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And Quirk, it's not that I think Israel is perfect by any means, it's that all the surrounding countries are so damn bad, and always bringing misery to themselves and others. Israel does wonderfully well though with what she has to work with.......where ever rain drops fall in Israel flowers bloom, and even with the underground drip irrigation, the flowers bloom where no rain falls....

      Delete
    2. A moral relativist to the bone.

      Delete
    3. Yuppers, that's Quirk for ya.

      Best rationalizer of his own behavior on the planet.

      Delete
  36. This $95 tablet is okay for browsing the blog but it's shit for posting until I get a physical keyboard for it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have enough points built up at the Casino - this took one hell of a long time - to get a free Ipad, which I wouldn't know how to use.

      Delete
    2. Once you send that check and it clears I can help you out with that iPad ole boy.

      Delete
    3. Check? Clears?

      What the hell?

      You are trying to pull a Quirk-O fast one on me. You never said anything about any fee or billing......this is an ex post facto bill-o pad-o Quirk-O if I ever saw one.

      It will be a cold day in hell.....

      (how much you asking?)

      Delete
    4. $ 35 bucks, T.
      Cough it up!

      Delete
  37. Giving the good guys a chance to fight back -








    Breaking: Federal judge strikes down Chicago’s ban on handgun sales


    posted at 7:21 pm on January 6, 2014 by Allahpundit






    Fun fact: The judge, Edmond Chang, is an Obama appointee.

    Courts have been slapping Chicago around on guns for years now. In 2010, after issuing the landmark Heller decision finding an individual right to bear arms in the Second Amendment, the Supreme Court followed up by striking down Chicago’s gun ban. The issue in that case was whether the right to bear arms was so fundamental that it should also shield citizens from state bans just as it shielded Heller from a ban in the federal District of Columbia. Answer: Yep. So Chicago went back to the drawing board, redrafting its ordinance to allow lawful possession of guns inside the home but banning gun sales inside the city. Was that enough to evade Heller?

    Nope:


    U.S. District Court Judge Edmond E. Chang wrote in a 35-page opinion that “Chicago’s ordinance goes too far in outright banning legal buyers and legal dealers from engaging in lawful acquisitions and lawful sales of firearms . . .”



    City of Chicago attorneys argued that it needed to ban the sale of handguns within the city because it wanted to restrict criminals’ access to licensed dealers; restrict gun acquisition in the illegal market; and eliminate gun shops, which are dangerous in themselves and cannot be properly regulated.

    The plaintiffs in the lawsuit — a combination of Chicago residents and an association of Illinois firearms retailers — argued that if they have the right to have a handgun within city limits — as courts have ruled — then they have a right to buy one within the city.

    That argument carried the day with the judge.

    The city argued that pushing gun sales outside of Chicago would make things harder for gang members. Chang’s surprising reply:

    ec1

    Sensible, which is precisely why it’s surprising coming from an Obama appointee on this issue. Elsewhere the city argued that banning gun sales would help reduce gun crime. Chang’s even more surprising reply: The cops have other means of doing that, like, say … stop-and-frisk.

    c2c3

    How this guy made it onto O’s judicial shortlist, I’ll never know. Maybe there’s a “three cheers for late-term abortion” opinion lurking somewhere in his background. This opinion’s part of a general trend against Chicago gun laws, though, and not all of it is coming from the courts. A few months ago the state legislature made Illinois the last state in the country to legalize concealed carry, forcing Chicago to re-write its gun ordinance yet again to accommodate the practice. The same law also made the city end its registry of gun owners. Now it’ll have to allow sales, per Chang’s opinion. We’ll see what happens to crime stats next year, but three years after the SCOTUS decision that invalidated Chicago’s gun ban, the city posted its lowest homicide rate since the mid-60s. Hmmmm.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Excerpts from the Judge's opinion can be read here -

      http://hotair.com/archives/2014/01/06/breaking-federal-judge-strikes-down-chicagos-ban-on-handgun-sales/

      Delete
  38. From Hawaii, Obama Blasted Republicans Who 'Went Home for Holidays'...

    In his weekly address released on Saturday, January 4, President Obama had the audacity to slam Republicans for "going home for the holidays" and letting unemployment insurance benefits expire. The only problem is that Obama said this while still on his holiday vacation in Hawaii.

    A day before his Sunday return to Washington, DC, from a two-week holiday visit to the state of his birth, Obama criticized Republicans for going home for the holidays:

    "Just a few days after Christmas, more than one million of our fellow Americans lost a vital economic lifeline - the temporary insurance that helps folks make ends meet while they look for a job. Republicans in Congress went home for the holidays and let that lifeline expire. And for many of their constituents who are unemployed through no fault of their own, that decision will leave them with no income at all."

    "Before taking off, the Obamas enjoyed a family dinner at Buzz's, a casual restaurant with tiki torches in Lanikai, near their Kailua vacation home. Earlier Saturday, the president and first lady went for a 15-minute hike before the president headed out for one last round of golf, this time with aide Marvin Nicholson and White House chef Sam Kass."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I still predict that there will be a sex scandal arising out of all these vacations......

      One of Obama's pals runs, or used to, a string of hookers.....

      They are not likely to let them live off of unemployment benefits.....

      Delete


    2. We’re told the Obama family stayed at the home of
      Aspen Ski Company owners Jim and Paula Crown
      , who are big Democratic donors.

      Their security team occupied another entire house next door.


      http://pagesix.com/2013/02/19/all-downhill-for-obama-gals/

      Delete
  39. Drudge says the average temp in USA right now is 17.5 degrees F, making Idaho a mild weather destination vacation spot.

    ReplyDelete
  40. The UN adopted Resolution 242 in late November 1967, five months after the Six-Day War ended. It took that long because intense and deliberate negotiations were needed to carefully craft a document that met the Arabs' demand for a return of land, and Israel's requirement that the Arabs recognize Israel's legitimacy, to make a lasting peace. It also took that long because each word in the resolution was deliberately chosen, and certain words were deliberately omitted, according to negotiators who drafted the resolution.

    So although Arab officials claim Resolution 242 requires Israel to withdraw from all territory it captured in June 1967, nowhere in the resolution is that demand delineated. Nor did those involved in the negotiations and drafting of the resolution want such a requirement. Instead, they say Resolution 242 explicitly and intentionally omitted the terms 'the territories' or 'all territories.' The wording of UN Resolution 242 clearly reflects the contention that none of the territories were occupied territories taken by force in an unjust war.

    Because the Arabs were clearly the aggressors, nowhere in UN Security Council Resolutions 242 is Israel branded as an invader or unlawful occupier of the territories. The wording of UN Resolution 242 clearly reflects the contention that none of the territories were occupied territories taken by force in an unjust war.

    Given that the Palestinian Arabs never had sovereignty over the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Jordan had seized them illegally in 1948, Professor, Judge Stephen M. Schwebel, former President of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Hague, concluded:

    "State [Israel] acting in lawful exercise of its right of self-defense may seize and occupy foreign territory as long as such seizure and occupation are necessary to its self-defense. ... Where the prior holder [Jordan] of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense [Israel] has, against that prior holder, better title.
    "As between Israel, reacting defensively in 1948 and 1967, on the one hand, and her Arab neighbors, acting aggressively, in 1948 and 1967, on the other, Israel has the better title in the territory of what was Palestine, including the whole of Jerusalem, than do Jordan and Egypt."

    Professor Julius Stone, a leading authority on the Law of Nations, has concurred, further clarifying:

    "Territorial Rights Under International Law. ... By their [Arab countries] armed attacks against the State of Israel in 1948, 1967, and 1973, and by various acts of belligerency throughout this period, these Arab states flouted their basic obligations as United Nations members to refrain from threat or use of force against Israel's territorial integrity and political independence. These acts were in flagrant violation inter alia of Article 2(4) and paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) of the same article."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am old enough to recall Abba Eban, that eloquent man, making those very same points very forcefully back in those days.

      I believe that the above post by Allen has it right.

      Delete
    2. Israel, a secular and socialist state that was built upon ...
      ... the Three Pillars of Apartheid

      The first pillar
      “derives from Israeli laws and policies that establish Jewish identity for purposes of law and afford a preferential legal status and material benefits to Jews over non-Jews.”

      The second pillar is reflected in
      “Israel’s ‘grand’ policy to fragment the OPT [and] ...
      ... ensure that Palestinians remain confined to the reserves designated for them ...
      ... while Israeli Jews are prohibited from entering those reserves but enjoy freedom of movement...
      ... throughout the rest of the Palestinian territory.

      This policy is evidenced by Israel’s extensive appropriation of Palestinian land, which continues to shrink the territorial space available to Palestinians;

      the hermetic closure and isolation of the Gaza Strip from the rest of the OPT;
      the deliberate severing of East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank;

      and the appropriation and construction policies serving to carve up the West Bank into an intricate and well-serviced network of connected settlements for Jewish-Israelis ...

      ... an archipelago of besieged and non-contiguous enclaves for Palestinians.”


      The third pillar is
      “Israel’s invocation of ‘security’ to validate sweeping restrictions on Palestinian freedom of ...
      ... opinion, expression, assembly, association and movement [to] mask a true underlying intent ...
      ... to suppress dissent to its system of domination and thereby maintain control over Palestinians as a group.”




      bob

      Delete

    3. The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands.

      The country is theirs, because they inhabit it,


      whereas we want to come here and settle down,
      and in their view we want to take away from them their country,

      while we are still outside.

      They defend bases which are theirs,
      which is easier than conquering new bases...
      let us not think that the terror is a result of Hitler's or Mussolini's propaganda —
      this helps but the source of opposition is there among the Arabs.

      ○ Address at the Mapai Political Committee (7 June 1938) as quoted in Flapan, Simha, 1979.

      Delete
  41. Borderland Beat Reporter un vatoMon Jan 06, 11:16:00 PM EST

    High level Mexican officials involved in the murder and kidnapping of Kiki Camarena

    Three former Mexican police officers, placed in the witness protection program since the 1990's, gave Proceso details of the kidnapping and torture of DEA agent Enrique "Kiki" Camarena in 1985. But there's more: these witnesses assert that Manuel Bartlett Diaz, then the Mexican Secretary of the Interior, and Juan Arevalo Gardoqui, Secretary of Defense, witnessed the torture of the DEA agent.

    This is the most detailed account I have found of the persons present during the interrogation of Kiki Camarena. --un vato


    CALIFORNIA, U.S. (Proceso).- In collaboration with drug traffickers and with the CIA, Miguel Bartlett Diaz and General Juan Arevalo Gardoqui participated in the interrogation of DEA agent Enrique Camarena, who was tortured to death in February of 1985.

    This claim is sustained by three former Mexican police officers who are now in the U.S. Federal Witness Protection Program, also known as WITSEC (Witness Security Program). One of them also accuses Bartlett (then Secretary of Interior, now a Senator for the Labor Party (Partido del Trabajo)) of having received four billion dollars(?) [Probably pesos, not dollars. Other sources refer to this amount as $320 million. -- un vato] in 1984 to finance his campaign to become a candidate for the Mexican presidency from drug traffickers Rafael Caro Quintero, Ernesto Fonseca Carrillo,"Don Neto", Miguel Angel Felix Gallardo and Manuel Salcido Uzeta, "El Cochiloco".

    For the three former police officers -- interviewed separately by Proceso and identified for safety reasons as "Jose I", "Jose II" and "Jose III"-- there is no doubt: the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), drug traffickers, the (Mexican) Army and the Mexican government planned the kidnapping of Kiki Camarena on February 7, 1985.

    These statements are consistent with those made to this journal (Editions No. 1928, 1929 and 1932) by three former U.S. federal agents -- Hector Berrellez, Phil Jordan and Robert Plumlee-- who insisted that the CIA was behind the murder of Camarena because the anti-narcotics agent had discovered a secret plan by the agency to arm the Nicaraguan contras with resources obtained from drug trafficking.

    http://www.borderlandbeat.com/

    ReplyDelete
  42. Are you saying your work in Central America was paid for by drug money?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Borderland Beat Reporter un vatoMon Jan 06, 11:44:00 PM EST


      ?

      Delete
    2. .

      I read the text of Resolution 242. I have also read quotes and articles on the subject that describe the discussions that went into the wording. There is no doubt in my mind that the word 'the' was left out intentionally in order to provide more flexibility for the negotiations towards a final agreement between the appropriate parties.

      However, the reason it was set up that way was because there was a basic assumption that they were dealing with rational players who had an intention to work towards a negotiated settlement. Now, 45 years later, it is obvious to everyone that there was never the intention nor the will to get a deal done.

      Just as there is no chance of getting a deal done now, there was no chance of getting a deal done then primarily due to the credulity of the deal's brokers.

      .

      .

      Delete
  43. Mohamed Samara, a chemical engineer and football coach who spoke with the Post, is a resident of Tira, an Israeli Arab city to the west of Rout 6. He said he is against Liberman’s plan.

    “We are happy here; we have all the rights and live well and don’t want to be sacrificed,” said Samara.

    “We do not want to be in a Palestinian state, under a new political area,” he said. “We work here,” he said, noting that his city has good relation with Jews.

    Asked if he identifies with Palestinians in the West Bank, Samara responded that he has feelings for them and has some family members that live there.

    However, at the same time Samara says he identifies with being an Israeli citizen.

    Asked what percentage of residents of Tira would agree with his views, he responded, “90 percent.”

    ReplyDelete
  44. QuirkMon Jan 06, 03:38:00 PM EST
    .

    Why should I have complained about the other guy. That was not the first time he quoted that and I saw the attribution previously, you friggin asshole. And going by the standard you established, I can only assume you are either a liar or racist.

    Spare me the bullshit.


    Pathetic. And there you go with the asshole thing again. Grow up, Princess.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You saw no attribution to the Ben Gurion post until today. Google does not contain the quote because Ben Gurion never made it.

      Take a hike.

      Delete

    2. Within a system which denies the existence of basic human rights,
      fear tends to be the order of the day.

      Fear of imprisonment, fear of torture, fear of death, fear of losing friends, family, property or means of livelihood, fear of poverty, fear of isolation, fear of failure.

      A most insidious form of fear is that which masquerades as common sense or even wisdom, condemning as foolish, reckless, insignificant or futile the small, daily acts of courage which help to preserve man's self-respect and inherent human dignity.

      It is not easy for a people conditioned by fear under the iron rule of the principle that might is right to free themselves from the enervating miasma of fear.

      Yet even under the most crushing state machinery courage rises up again and again, for fear is not the natural state of civilized man.

      ― Aung San Suu Kyi, Freedom from Fear

      Delete

    3. The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it,
      whereas we want to come here and settle down,
      and in their view we want to take away from them their country,
      while we are still outside.

      They defend bases which are theirs,
      which is easier than conquering new bases...
      let us not think that the terror is a result of Hitler's or Mussolini's propaganda —
      this helps but the source of opposition is there among the Arabs.

      ○ Address at the Mapai Political Committee (7 June 1938) as quoted in Flapan, Simha, 1979.

      Delete

    4. I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared

      . "Why should the Arabs make peace?
      If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel.

      That is natural: we have taken their country.
      "

      http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

      Delete
  45. The birth of Israel in 1947 was celebrated as the salvation for the Jews after their near decimation in the holocaust. Most of the Western world, as well as the Soviet Union, felt that creating Israel would absolve them of the guilt they felt because of their mistreatment of their Jews. That included France, Britain, Germany, as well as the United States. Although the original Zionists considered several other locations to create a Jewish state, they decided on Palestine because of its ancestral relationship to the Jews. At that time, no significant resistance from the Palestinians was expected; the Arabs were just recovering from decades of Ottoman domination and were still under the thumb of British and French colonialism. It seemed that the price of forcing Israel upon the Palestinians would be relatively cheap when compared with the great good it would do for the long-oppressed Jews.

    Since then, however, the world has changed in many significant ways. Now, the costs associated with the support and maintenance of the Jewish state greatly outweigh the benefits. Since the creation of Israel, the Middle East has been literally in flames. Today, most of the problems afflicting the world can be traced, either directly or indirectly, to the Middle East and to Israel. The cost, in lives and material, of supporting and defending Israel has been incalculable and continues to mount. The future looks even more ominous. The world is getting tired of the problems caused by Israel and its continued occupation of Palestinian lands.

    In the last 60 some years, the Israelis abused the support they received; they used it mostly to suppress and humiliate the Palestinians, to bully and attack their neighbors, and, ultimately to mercilessly create an apartheid state in Palestine. In occupied Palestine, the Jews have become a master race that is on a lofty and well-protected pedestal. Today, Israel is a violent occupying power that is continually pleading to the rest of the world that it is a victim and is under enormous threat.

    Use the link to my name for the balance of my post

    ReplyDelete
  46. Ah, Quirk's momentarily in a bad mood for some reason or other. I think he had a hard holidays season. He was missing here for a long time, and moody as hell when he got back. He called me a Hick, not even realizing I would take it as a compliment coming from a city slicker, which is unlike him. Quirk is not a liar or racist or an asshole. He does exaggerate sometimes though, and is often wrong on the issues. And when in a good mood he has a wonderful sense of humor. He's just off his feed.



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bob,

      I believe he was calling me a liar, racist, and asshole.

      Meh...

      Delete
  47. Quirk,

    If I google, " All things are mortal but the Jews", tiny snippet instantly takes me to Mark Twain.

    If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one quarter of one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly, the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk.

    His contributions to the world’s list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine and abstruse learning are also very out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world in all ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself and be excused for it. The Egyptians, the Babylonians and the Persians rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greeks and Romans followed and made a vast noise, and they were gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, and have vanished.

    The Jew saw them all, survived them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities, of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert but aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jews; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

    --Mark Twain, September 1897



    If I google, Why should the Arabs make peace?
    If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel, I do not get a quote by Ben Gurion.

    I did not call desert rat a liar and a racist because he did not provide a link to his alleged quote of Ben Gurion. I called him that because there is no such quote.

    I did call desert rat a liar and a racist for his idiotic claim, answering my question to Jenny, that the had paid contract fees to Israel of $110 billion USD since 1977. Nothing of the sort happened and he knew it.

    If I am expected to give links, my preference, I expect everyone to do so. If you do not understand that, you are as dense as a sack hammers. Since that is not the case, you must have something else in mind. I do not care what. You have chosen the wrong horse in this race.


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    1. The search for scapegoats is essentially an abnegation of responsibility:

      it indicates an inability to assess honestly and intelligently the true nature of the problems which lie at the root of social and economic difficulties and a lack of resolve in grappling with them.

      ― Aung San Suu Kyi, Freedom from Fear

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    2. From threatening to "End Western Civilization" to ...
      ... fabricating false headings on a "Cut & Paste"


      How the 'mighty' have fallen!

      "Spengler's Laws": "When a nation is reduced to selling its women, it's lost."
      hat tip: allen



      bob

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  48. Mark Twain also recommended we not tell the Jews how smart they are, just as horses should never be told how strong they are, as neither would ever again allow themselves to be ridden.

    This is what pisses desert rat off about the Jews - and he always attacks his betters.

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