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Wednesday, January 15, 2014

Did the US invasion of Iraq fatally destabilize the country?




False Nostalgia: The Original Fallujah Campaign Destabilized Iraq

(By Juan Cole)

We’ve been treated to a rash of articles about how US veterans of the Fallujah campaigns of 2004 are upset about the return of al-Qaeda to that city and the now dominant position of the extremists. Despite my respect for US soldiers who risked their lives, these veterans are making a political argument and I have to point out that it misunderstands what really happened in 2004.

It was being alleged at the time that Fallujah had become the center of the network of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who affiliated with al-Qaeda. It was being alleged by US generals that 80% of attacks in Iraq were being carried out by Zarqawi. All of these notions were nonsense. After Fallujah was reduced in late 2004, the Sunni insurgency did not skip a beat, and bombings in Baghdad continued. Likewise when Zarqawi himself was killed in 2006, violence did not subside; if anything, that year it got worse. There were 50 major insurgent cells in the Sunni Arab region, and Fallujah was only one site out of many for them.

George W. Bush was alleged by US reporters to have had a grudge against Fallujah because 4 contractors were brutally killed there by a mob in spring of 2004. “Heads must roll,” he said according to one reporter.
In November of 2004, Bush ordered the invasion of Fallujah. It was a brutal invasion that left much of the city in rubble, something Bush administration flacks attempted to cover up at the time.

Many Sunni Arabs in that era were on the fence and undecided about the US. The Fallujah campaign convinced them that their darkest suspicions of Washington were entirely justified.

But was was important was the outcome of the campaign. It was opposed by the Sunni Arabs of center-north Iraq in general. As it proceeded, more and more of them demonstrated against American rule. Many Sunni Arabs in that era were on the fence and undecided about the US. The Fallujah campaign convinced them that their darkest suspicions of Washington were entirely justified.

As a result, the whole Sunni Arab area cut off ties with the US. In Mosul, Gen. David Petraeus had established good relations with the local elite of Iraq’s 3rd city, which is about the size of Houston. Some 4,000 Mosulis, mainly Sunni Arabs but with some Kurds, had joined a new police force there.

After the Fallujah campaign, all 4000 resigned. Some showed back up in ski masks manning checkpoints for the insurgency.

In Ramadi, Khalediya, Samarra and other Sunni Arab-majority cities, local elites broke with the Americans and their young men joined the guerrillas.

Fallujah for the Sunni Arabs of Iraq was an Alamo, a symbol around which to rally, and a generator of hatred for the foreigners.

Then the Sunni Arab elites announced that they would boycott the parliamentary elections scheduled for the end of January, 2005. Paul Bremer, the American viceroy of Iraq and the UN team had set up a proportional system for the elections that was nationwide. Thus, if throughout the country a party got 10 percent of the vote, they’d get 10% of the seats in parliament. This system is more like a US presidential election than like a congressional one. There were no districts.

That was a problem. With district-based elections, even if there is low turnout, somebody will win and the district will be represented. But in the American-sponsored first Iraqi parliamentary election, it was possible that a group might have no representatives at all if they did not come out to vote.

I was very alarmed by the Fallujah campaign and the alienation of the Sunni Arabs from the voting process. I wrote an op-ed for the Detroit News late in 2004 in which I argued that there should be a one-time set-aside of seats for the Sunnis, in case they ended up not being represented in the legislature.

And here was another problem: Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani had imposed on the Bush administration the principle that the Iraqi constitution would be drafted by elected representatives of the iraqi people. That parliament was also a constituent assembly.

If the Sunni Arabs boycotted the vote and ended up poorly represented in parliament, they would have very little say on the shape of the constitution.

In turn, their lack of input into the constitution might cause them to reject it. A constitution is fundamental to a country. If any large number of persons rejects it, that is a recipe for civil war.

No one paid attention to my op-ed. Iraq held its January 2005 elections. The Sunnis largely boycotted.
The Sunni Arabs ended up with only 17 seats out of 275, and 3 of those were on the Shiite list cobbled together by Sistani.

The Sunni Arabs played very little role in crafting the constitution. In mid-October of 2005, when the referendum was held on the constitution, all three Sunni-majority provinces rejected it.
In 2006, a few months later, a civil war broke out between Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq. Part of the impetus was the Sunni rejection of what they saw as the Shiite constitution. Some 2500 people were showing up dead every month by that summer. Sunnis were massively ethnically cleansed from Baghdad.
So that was the actual impact of the Fallujah campaign. It pushed the Sunni Arabs off the fence and most of them became anti-American. Thousands of police resigned from their government positions. Entire cities became sullen and rejectionist.

So, the American Fallujah campaign did not save Iraq and nor did it create a path toward democracy in Iraq. To the extent that it angered the Sunni Arabs and alienated them from the American-sponsored political process, it was highly negative. There is a sense in which it led to the civil war of 2006-2007.

The people of Fallujah do not believe that they owe something to the Americans. Even the ones who later allied with the US, in the Awakening Councils, think the US forsook them after 2008. The Fallujah campaign epitomized the hubris of American rule under Bush. It was another step in the downward spiral of Iraq into chaos.

116 comments:

  1. Which battle of Fallujah destabilized Iraq? There was more than one, you know?

    The problem with Iraq is much like that of Afghanistan: It is impossible to be both the Marine Corps and the Peace Corps. In the American Civil War and WWII, the belligerents were unconditionally defeated. Their cities were left in rubble and their armies shattered, without leadership or the will to carry on. In short reconstruction came after demoralization. Oh, and unlawful combatants were summarily executed.

    Perhaps the single greatest error in Iraq was having no plan beyond the invasion. After a short resounding victory, we were dumbfounded, somewhat like Laurel and Hardy, "Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Numerous Iraqis both hated and supported the USA in it's efforts to destabilize and stabilize iraq.

      Numerous I tell ya...

      Delete
    2. WE HAD A PLAN!

      Ash provided the link to the Video Documentary.

      The Bush/Bremmer Team Brilliantly trashed the plan and began the disaster.

      Obama carries on this great tradition.

      Delete
  2. QuirkWed Jan 15, 09:31:00 AM EST
    .I will have to respond later this afternoon as I have appointments I have to attend. But I respond. As usual, your comments are riddled with misleading and inaccurate statements.


    Numerous posters have told me that you are more about style than substance. Go take a few hours to research and pen to make another epic rebuttal and personal slam against me.

    Numerous post of yours prove that what you lack in actual understanding is made up for in abundance of verbiage.

    That word "numerous" is interesting.

    What does it mean? Or not mean?

    Numerous... Your word to describe a meaningless % of jews who are either: misguided, misinformed, retarded, ignorant and or self hating....

    "numerous" LOL

    Go find some new words to prove how brilliant you are....


    .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Misleading and inaccurate statements...

      Is that like when you say "numerous" Jews are not zionists?

      It misleads... it certainly aint accurate...

      numerous...

      9 out of 10 dentists (surveyed) recommend crest...

      LOL

      Delete
    2. Quirk: As usual, your comments are riddled with misleading and inaccurate statements.


      As usual your accusations are riddled with misleading and inaccurate statements.

      Delete
    3. WiO,

      I think the argument could be made that "Zionism" ended in 1948 with the establishment of a Jewish state and Jewish homeland. Zionism had met its goal and its usefulness to Jews as a political ideology had ended.

      Over 75% of Israel's Jews are native born. 90% of Israel's Jews have some family member native born. After 65 years, Israel is a Jewish state and Jewish homeland, no longer owing its cause for existence to Zionism. Israel owes its current status to its ability to repeatedly defeat its Muslim adversaries on the battlefield. For those who claim to be anti-Zionist today but not anti-Jewish, I would say that makes about as much sense as saying the British blockade of Boston Harbor was not because of anti-Americanism but because of anti-Puritanism.

      I think it could also be well argued that "anti-Semitism" has had its day. It was once a useful neologism conveying the irrationality of the European hatred of Jews for being Jews. After the near extinction of European Jewry by Europeans, anti-Semitism became even more irrational; and in vestigial form only could be used to define the European hatred of ideas, say, Zionism.

      None of the above it cut in stone, but I do find it interesting and worth additional thought.

      Delete
    4. At one point in my time, it was my understanding that Zionism referred to the desire for a Jewish State that occupied the land that was biblical Israel, or Eretz Israel. It seems the term Zionism has morphed to simply mean a "Jewish State".

      Delete
    5. Quirk has to see his Parole Officer this late A.M.

      ;)

      Delete
    6. (this is just a 'gentle ribbing' and I hope does not violate the rules, which I support whole heartedly......how improved is this place ?........a lot improved)

      Delete
    7. It seems rat has scurried off with his tail between his legs. Too bad...

      Delete
    8. "Zion" was a place. "Zionism" was a political model. Israel became the state, the objective of Zionism.

      The initial Mandate took in a mass of land that had never been part of the historical Israel. The heartland of Biblical Israel is now called the West Bank - Judea and Samaria.

      Delete
    9. and many, still I think, believe Zionism is the quest for Judea and Samaria to become part of Israel.

      Delete
    10. what's a many?

      what's wrong for wishing your historic homeland is liberated?

      Hamas just graduated 10,000 kids from weapons, suicide bombing and fighting school. Grades 10-12. To fight, die and to liberate all of Israel.

      they have that right too, and they have the right to be killed while doing it...

      Delete
    11. If that were to happen, 1967 was the time. You see, in 1954 King Hussein made all Muslims in the West Bank and Jerusalem Jordanian citizens. That he had illegally snatched this land in 1948-49 did not seem to trouble the UN or the newly minted Jordanian citizens who were living on Jordanian "occupied" land.

      Had I run the show in 1967, Jordanian citizens would have been repatriated to Jordan immediately following the retreat of Jordanian forces from the illegally "occupied" Jordanian territory. My rationale would have been the repatriation of 14 million Germans per the Potsdam Agreement (1944-1950). Remuneration and/or reentry into the West Bank would have been handled on a case by case basis.

      That was then, this is now. Israel will have to come to terms with the Palestinians, unless the Palestinians do something incredibly stupid. Since Mr. Abbas says that no Jew may remain in East Jerusalem if the PA gains control, the PA would not gain control on my watch.

      Delete
    12. Again, there you go again suggesting Abbas would cleanse East Jerusalem of Jews where what he was referring to is that he would not accept Israeli Defense Forces in East Jerusalem if the Palestinians controlled it. That is a reasonable thought - what nation would accept foreign armies patrolling their sovereign land? It appears that the Israelis want their army in most all of any new Palestinian state and not accepting any Israeli presence is not unreasonable.

      Delete
    13. aye, that last line was a mouthful for even a native speaking English person. It must a be an even more difficult thought to express in a press conference for an ESL person.

      Delete
    14. p.s. I noticed a post yesterday where you referred to Israel as "we". Are you Israeli?

      Delete
    15. Re: Israeli

      There is no such nationality according to the Jewish Supreme Court. Jews are Jews, whether living in Israel or elsewhere.

      Abbas said what he said about Jews generally and about the IDF specifically.

      Delete
    16. abbas has repeatedly said that Jews have no place at all to live in any liberated palestinian lands.

      period.

      what part of juden free do you not understand ash?

      the other day you pompously scolded my for talking about the 899/900th of the middle east.

      well ash? 899/900th of the middle east is almost 100% Jew free. Gaza is JEW free and if the Palestinians have their way>??? any land they control will be JEW free.

      But go ahead, bitch about the IDEA of Israel arabs having the border moved to include them in a NEW palestinian state and you charge ethnic cleansing.

      you are selective in seeking rational thought

      Delete
    17. eh!? supreme court - what decision was that. There are Israeli passports, that's for sure. One would think one would need be a citizen of Israel to carry an Israeli passport.

      Delete
  3. U.S. Defense contractor suspected of smuggling plans for air force's $400 billion fighter jet to Iran

    According to court records, Khazaee has traveled to Iran at least five times in the last seven years.
    He's been charged with interstate transportation of stolen property of the value of $5,000 or more. If convicted, Khazaee faces a fine and up to 10 years in prison.


    Hmm...



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And yet Pollard got LIFE in prison for selling intel about the PLO to Israel. Information promised and withheld by the USA.

      Let's give freedom to actual enemies and keep the Jews locked up...

      Numerous times Jews have paid a price far greater than actual enemies of the USA for disloyalty and/or illegal activities.

      Delete
    2. My friend, I must disagree on Pollard. He took money to commit espionage. When caught, he immediately began to give up his sources. Indeed, he thought he had given up so much against Israel that his sentence would be lessened. He was mistaken.

      In all these years, Pollard has never once expressed genuine remorse for the damage done. It is impossible for me to sympathize.

      I have no doubt that he will be released sooner than later. Israel will take him because he is a Jew. But he is no hero and I doubt his damage is done; there will be a book.

      Sometimes it is better to let the dead bury the dead.

      Delete
    3. wasn't defending him, just wish there was consistency in sentences

      Delete
    4. He'll get the same award they gave the IDF pilots who took out an American SIGINT boat.

      Delete
    5. ...sadistic...sick, twisted...false...malicious... disrespectful of the dead and your country's armed forces...

      Delete
    6. Teresita RedingerWed Jan 15, 08:32:00 PM EST
      He'll get the same award they gave the IDF pilots


      What award did the IDF pilots get. I forget; but with your depth of knowledge on this matter I am sure you can tell me immediately. Go for it. :-)

      Delete
  4. Numerous threads have come and gone and still no WIO on the blog roll...

    I know that it must be a huge project to amend that... After all the time it took to add Jenny and Mome...

    LOL

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Please add WiO to the blog role.

      Sam is missing too.

      Where is Sam anyways?

      Delete
  5. QuirkTue Jan 14, 11:20:00 AM EST
    .
    ME: Deuce asserts that AIPACis making mischief, Quirk says that AIPAC is an Israeli governmental organ...

    QUIRK: There is only one country's interests that AIPAC worries about. And it isn't the US.

    Ah, misleading and inaccurate. How many AIPAC conventions, meetings and or briefings have you attended?

    Do you really think you are qualified to make a judgement about how AIPAC feels about American interests?

    Me thinks you shoot from the hip, but use nicely written words to cover up your with misleading and inaccurate statements.



    In fact I got you to admit your statement was "misleading and inaccurate"


    QuirkTue Jan 14, 12:19:00 PM EST
    I accept it. I merely call it what it is.

    .
    What is "Occupation"Tue Jan 14, 12:49:00 PM EST
    quoting Quirk: I accept it. I merely call it what it is.

    ME: No, you cal lit as YOU see it. You are not the end all of what is true or truth. You have your own bias as does everyone else here

    QuirkTue Jan 14, 12:53:00 PM EST
    A legitimate point.


    Even you admit that you make misleading and inaccurate statements....

    :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not bad, WiO, not bad at all !

      :)

      Delete
    2. "Even you admit that you make misleading and inaccurate statements......."

      But not often.

      HIs skill was honed to perfection through years of bilking the unwary and naïve over there that at Souls-R-Us !!

      ;)

      (this is a gentle ribbing)

      Delete
  6. Devil Baby Attack !

    http://www.fastcocreate.com/3024885/theres-a-marauding-devil-baby-scaring-people-on-the-streets-of-new-york

    ReplyDelete
  7. The answer to the question of the thread is 'no'.

    But we have left too soon, throwing it away......same will happen in Afghanistan.....to decompress the hatred of these folks, which is now in their genes as Rufus first intuited, in their genes through some kind of newly discovered Lamarckian wizardry, an occupation of at least two generations are needed, and we don't have the attention span for that.....

    ReplyDelete
  8. For his part, Dick Morris does not like the Obama/USA/Iran/Munich nuclear weapons deal...."It's terrible".....

    Watch the old toe sucker here -

    http://www.dickmorris.com/obamas-munich-deal-with-iran-dick-morris-tv-lunch-alert/e....


    ReplyDelete
  9. Re: Fallujah

    I do not think we lost Iraq because of Fallujah; it was already a lost cause thanks to our Peace Corps contingent.

    What the first battle proved to the enemy was that we could be had with some cheap talk about negotiating and civilians. Additionally, we showed up with about 10% of the force necessary to do the job and, then, dragged our heels, eventually, pulling back into a porous perimeter.

    After giving the bad guys about six months to turn the place into a fortress, with reinforcements arriving regularly, we brought in close to 20,000 troops and support units. At this point, we permitted some unknown number of less suicidal bad guys to leave the city. As might be expected, all the defensive preparations took a toll. If memory serves, about 700 Americans were killed or wounded. Enemy losses were believed to be considerably higher, but no one really knows. The books show about 1200 POWs arrested.

    Usually, the defense is at a disadvantage in terms of mobility, i.e. a fortress has a limited amount of space. However, when the enemy learns that firing off munitions will bring the offense to a grinding halt while air or artillery fire is called in, he moves to another position promptly. So, while all hell breaks loose on where he was, he is watching from another position.

    If anything, Fallujah, on the whole, was symptomatic of a failure of leadership and the lack of a clear strategic mission. It also validated our aversion to risk.

    ReplyDelete
  10. "...

    Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, the former leader of the Lincoln Square Synagogue in Manhattan and a founder of the West Bank settlement Efrat, spoke for many when he wrote, “The paradox of Jewish history is that, had we not been willing to sacrifice our children to God, we would never have survived as a God-inspired and God-committed nation.” Rabbi Riskin has commented elsewhere that what Abraham was asked to do will be demanded from “all subsequent generations of Jews.” The nod to current Israeli reality is evident, especially to those who, like myself, served long enough in Israel’s military to confront its manifestly immoral demands.



    Consciously or not, views like Riskin’s draw on a theology that explicitly identifies the Zionist cause with God’s will. The theology is pervasive in Israel, a country where a constitution could never be written because its authority would conflict with God’s, where every young soldier receives a copy of the Bible to go along with his first gun, where even left-leaning liberals eulogize a figure such as Ariel Sharon. Contrary to appearances, the focus of this theology and of this politics has never been on sacrifice. The focus has always been on obedience. Substitute “God’s will” with “the Jewish state” and you get the political theology of the binding of Isaac — of obedience to the state’s decree, immoral though it may well be.

    Sharon is worth a comment here, because he insisted on identifying himself as a Jew first and an Israeli second — a Jew for whom reviving biblical Judaism in the promised land was the principal value. Such fundamentalism is irregular among secular Israel-born Jews like Sharon and it may at least partly explain the ruthlessness with which he fought (one thinks of the brutal attack against the West Bank village of Qibya) or the zeal with which for so long he created settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. Sharon embodied better than most the political theology of the binding of Isaac: the Jewish state always first, morality second.

    But there are reasons to think that this political theology is distorted, not just when viewed ethically but also when viewed from within the standpoint of faith — indeed, within the Jewish faith.

    ..."

    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/14/the-politics-of-the-binding-of-isaac/?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Interesting - thanks allen! Also interesting what Omar Barhouti wrote under that citation said:
      "Israel remains the only country on earth, as far as I am aware, that does not recognize its own nationality, does not recognize a major part of its citizenry, the indigenous Palestinian citizens of the state, as nationals of the state, but recognizes foreigners who share the majority’s religion as nationals!

      Only decades of Israeli propaganda, mainly manufactured by complicit academia and propagated by pliant journalism serving Zionism, could have covered up this profound and blatant pillar of Israeli apartheid from world public opinion.

      Imagine if France, say, would not recognize its non-Catholic citizens as French nationals and would extend French nationality to all Catholics around the world, privileging them over its own citizens who are not Catholic. And of course French Catholics are not colonial settlers who gained hegemony and demographic majority through the systematic ethnic cleansing of the non-Catholic indigenous population of the land!"

      http://mondoweiss.net/2013/10/recognize-nationality-endanger.html

      Delete
    2. There is a distinct difference in the treatment of jews and non-jews in Israel. By a myriad of laws, rules and regulations, and simply illegal, but institutional discrimination, Israel does what is unthinkable in any other Western country

      Delete
    3. FWIW: Restricting the blog comments has only enabled the “Israeli lobby” to dominate every thread.

      Delete
    4. That's still better than Rat's spam.

      Delete
    5. The public wearing of the traditional burqa is illegal in France. This is not the case in Israel.

      Christians and Muslims may legally proselytize in Israel; however, There Is No Right to Religious Proselytizing in U.S. Military.

      It would seem from "myriad" laws you could have produced a single example.

      Delete
    6. Jenny ClarkWed Jan 15, 08:06:00 PM EST
      There is a distinct difference in the treatment of jews and non-jews in Israel.

      The public wearing of the traditional burqa is illegal in France. This is not the case in Israel.

      Christians and Muslims may legally proselytize in Israel; however, There Is No Right to Religious Proselytizing in U.S. Military.

      It would seem from "myriad" laws you could have produced a single example.



      Jenny ClarkWed Jan 15, 08:17:00 PM EST
      FWIW: Restricting the blog comments has only enabled the “Israeli lobby” to dominate every thread.

      Ash has been very busy today. He is hardly a member of the "Israeli lobby".
      Given Deuce's choice of threads, the interest of the "Israeli lobby" should be expected. You could complain to him about his choice of topics. AIPAC has no control over that, but we are working on it.

      Delete
    7. I have a topic queued up in case we ever get close to 200 posts, and of course, none of my topics are ever about that beach on the Eastern Mediterranean.

      Delete
    8. Jenny ClarkWed Jan 15, 08:17:00 PM EST
      FWIW: Restricting the blog comments has only enabled the “Israeli lobby” to dominate every thread.

      O, not to put too fine a point on it, but why didn't you stick with Deuce's topic? I know I did until pulled away.
      Your concern for the world's downtrodden is touching though.

      Delete
  11. Replies
    1. Government Healthcare pays twice as much for Penis Pumps than free market price.

      Delete
    2. "A newspaper FYI is like an iPad made of trees."

      ALEX: Hi. I'm Alex, and this is my wife Martha, and we're both approaching the big 6-0.

      MARTHA: And we have health care issues to deal with.

      ALEX: I take blood pressure medication.

      MARTHA: And Levitra.

      ALEX: Yes. And Martha’s got beta blockers and something for her osteoporosis. And it’s not cheap.

      MARTHA: But fortunately we don't have to pay for it.

      ALEX: No, you do.

      MARTHA: That’s right. You young people are paying for our drugs and our doctors.

      ALEX: Not to mention our Social Security and our Medicare when we retire to Boca. And you know why?

      MARTHA: Because you don't vote.

      ALEX: And we do.

      MARTHA: That’s right. Hope you enjoy that Burning Guy festival.

      ALEX: Come on, Martha, let's go find that Levitra.

      MARTHA: Oh, Alex!

      ANNOUNCER: The Affordable Care Act. Next time, maybe pick up a newspaper.

      (END VIDEO CLIP)

      KIMMEL: A newspaper FYI is like an iPad made of trees.

      Delete
  12. Obama's Great Leadership has nothing to do with Al Queada's resurgence.

    For those of you with highly creative imaginations.

    ReplyDelete
  13. ...actually not all that active.

    The MSM provides the scripts for mind numb robots.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ...or for Brainiacs like Rufus, you program your "brain" by reading "The Onion"

      Delete
  14. Babydoll got another interesting phone call last night. This time it was from a 60 yr. old friend, a part-time poker dealer, in St. Charles, Mo.

    She was excited, and more than a little incredulous, that she was able to get the Bronze Plan for Zero ($0.00.)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh, she estimated her 2014 income at $24,000.00.

      Delete
    2. So you're boasting to a blog called "The Libertarian" that somebody gets a 100 percent transfer of wealth. Check.

      Delete
    3. The woman hasn't had the taxpayers subsidizing her by way of "employer-paid (before taxes) Health Insurance" for her whole life,

      so maybe she was due for a break.

      Delete
    4. Employer-paid HMOs are part of a labor compensation package. The Bronze Plan for $0.00 is a raw transfer of wealth.

      Delete
    5. Who is this "Joe The Plumber" guy, anyway?

      Capitalist Pig.

      Delete
    6. They are Taxpayer-subsidized. That's a transference.

      But, what the hell, that's what civil society is.

      Delete
    7. Let's pay him to perform a reverse sewerpipe rotorooter cleanout for Rufus the next time he takes a dump.

      Delete
    8. Rufie Spinning on a Rooter.

      ...a Youtube Sensation

      Delete
    9. I am always amused by libs who say tax cuts have to be "paid for", because that position rolls from a false axiom that the current level of spending is sacrosanct.

      Delete
    10. Paid for 24 years from now by the lucky once young and healthy recipients of Obamacare.

      Delete
  15. A woman has a right to her body.

    ...including her Vagina and her Baby.

    Keep the Government out of Their Vaginas, Their Babys, and our Bedrooms!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Not to mention our Medical Technology.

      Delete
  16. "So you're boasting to a blog called "The Libertarian" that somebody gets a 100 percent transfer of wealth. Check."

    He does live in Mississippi.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Setup for how fucked up Mississippi Healthcare is now.

    "It is Red, ya know"

    Couldn't be because the whole state is fucked up.

    South Central LA is 95 percent True Blue, yet all the Hospitals have closed their doors and fled.

    ...helps Rufie's statistical comparisons of "Healthcare in the USA" with Sweden's.

    As if GWB encouraged their Black and Hispanic Big Asses to shoot each other after producing 5 Crack Babies.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I live on land that some of my ancestors have lived on for 13,000 years.

      Where did you say you live, again?

      Delete
    2. Want to compare Race Relations in Hawaii with any of our major cities?

      Your "ancestor" argument is laugable.

      Delete
    3. ...and of course the Spainards had a right given by God to Civilize the Savages.

      Whitey, pure evil compared to the Peace Loving Natives.

      ...average age of death, 38.

      Delete
    4. My people, the Solutreans, were in Mississippi first, but thought this was one god forsaken shit hole of a swamp, and left.

      Then the Sioux took over for a while, until some natural born killers of the Rufus variety moved on in and sent the Sioux packing to the north.......

      Delete
  18. .

    My. My. When the cats away the mice will play.

    Numerous posters have told me that you are more about style than substance. Go take a few hours to research and pen to make another epic rebuttal and personal slam against me.

    Your paranoia is showing again, Wio. It seems to form the basis of your problem. Your insinuation mimics Allen with his injunction to rat to be back in 10 minutes with an answer or Bibi’s demand that the PA acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state. A bit presumptuous, I would say.

    Or, simply kinda humerous.

    Let's see, doctors appointment and appointment with contractor on some work I'm having done at the house or skipping that to talk to some whack-job on the blog. Doctor? WiO? Doctor? WiO? Oh man, that is a toughy.

    Let me also say it is a bit ironic that the charge comes from a man who when asked a simple question requires a week to answer it even though he has been repeating the charge that prompted the question for that same entire week.

    The modern issue of anti-zionism of being anti-Semitism has nothing to do with the anti-zionism of "numerous" jews from the previous decades. BTW what is a "numerous"? 1%? 5% of the total population of Jews in the world?

    Jewish culture, religion and it's peoples support the self determination of the Jewish people for nationhood in it's historic homeland in Israel by a majority of over 98%. Of course there are always exceptions. There are also deluded, ill and simply retarded folks as well. Are they a part of your "numerous" calculus?


    Let's start with the initial question. You offered us an absolute: if you are against Zionism you are anti-Semitic. Based on the snarky, pompous, and dare I say, condescending answer you just gave, the statement is obviously false. Yet, you still accuse me of being anti-Semitic. So you are obviously basing your judgment of me on other that the fact that I am just opposed to anti-Zionism. Or, am I wrong since that answer too would tell us something.

    As to your question on the percent of Jews who were anti-Zionist, your memory lapses are staring to become problematic. My initial post contained words to the effect 'of the estimated 25% to 30%...' You questioned me on the number and I responded. I told you that while there was much discussion on Google about people who were opposed to Zionism, there was very little I could find on actual numbers, in fact I could find only one reference from a conservative rabbi's blog where he put down the estimate. I told you I could try to dig up the link again if you wanted it. More importantly, I offered you a chance to correct the number if you chose. And asked that if you had a link with different percentages please bring it forward. You went away and didn't revisit the issue again until yesterday. If you have a link put it out there and the issue is quickly resolved.

    As to your point about only wanting to talk about modern Zionism and how it is applied in Israel today, I am perfectly willing to do that. As you say, what people in the past have said about Zionism has little application with regard to the way the policy is be implemented in Israel today or in what people are saying about that policy today.

    .

    ReplyDelete
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    1. .

      And yes there are self hating Jews who are intact anti-Semitic.
      And you call me condescending. I may not be Jewish, but I find it laughable when you dips come to this blog purporting to tell us what ALL Jews think, or rather should think. You represent one portion of the Jews. There are differing thoughts out there on many subjects including Zionism your pompous prattle notwithstanding.

      There are NUMEROUS articles that describe the "anti-zionist" movement as a cover for anti-Semitism.

      You have have dismissed Daniel Pearl's mother article as ignorant or so other such dismissive term.

      Provide a link. As I pointed out, your memory lapses are troubling. I have never made any statement referring to Daniel Pearl’s mother’s article. As I recall, it had two main premises, the first arguing that the "anti-zionist" movement as a cover for anti-Semitism and the second that Zionism implies nationalism.
      .

      Delete
    2. "When you don't have anything to say, talk about yourself."

      from "Q's Book of Many Injunctions"

      Lost count on all the I's in the last two posts.....

      Delete
    3. .

      Sorry, don't talk in the third person as some do here.

      WiO: You have have dismissed Daniel Pearl's mother article as ignorant or so other such dismissive term.

      Provide a link. As QUIRK pointed out, your memory lapses are troubling. QUIRK has never made any statement referring to Daniel Pearl’s mother’s article. As QUIRK recalls, it had two main premises, the first arguing that the "anti-zionist" movement as a cover for anti-Semitism and the second that Zionism implies nationalism.

      Hmmm.

      Naw, QUIRK don't think so.

      .
      .



      Delete
  19. RUFUS II

    They are Taxpayer-subsidized. That's a transference.

    But, what the hell, that's what civil society is.

    ---

    Like Russia.

    Pootie Poot will fix Healthcare in So Central.

    ...like Stalin did in the Ukraine.

    ReplyDelete
  20. In Sweden, Lawyers do not control and profit from divorce.

    There is a set fee for childcare.

    In the good old USA, lawyers continue to profit from child care for decades.

    Part of the settlement, don'tcha know.

    More proof of why Sweden is directly comparable to the USA.

    ...in Rufus's "mind."

    ReplyDelete
  21. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  22. .

    DougTue Jan 14, 10:29:00 AM EST

    I thought you said Gates was one of the DC Insiders that you disliked least...



    Once again, you fail to realize that there are actually people that exist who have the ability to view a person favorably in a general sense while still offering up criticism of the person because of some of their positions or actions.

    Your tendency to view all things as black or white (one shared by others here) is demonstrated by your formulation of the following syllogism:

    Major Premise: Zionism is a really, really good thing.

    Minor Premise: Quirk doesn't like the policy of Zionism.

    Conclusion: Quirk doesn't give a shit if the Christians and Jews of the ME are tortured and starved.

    The logic? Well...

    Aristotle would be so proud.

    .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That's because you are the genius here, and I and the rest, the village idiots.

      ...as you are so eager to repeat.

      Were you a National Merit Award Scholar?

      Delete
    2. Major Premise: Zionism is a really, really good thing.

      Minor Premise: Quirk doesn't like the policy of Zionism.

      ---

      I mostly ignore the arguments on both sides.

      The only change you have wrought w/me is that Farmer Bob's citing the instance of you being a lapsed Catholic being relevant.

      As I said before, we've all been exposed to racism one place or other.

      You like to imagine that you were above all that.

      ...the sacrosanct working class household and all that.

      Delete
    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    4. .

      You are laughable.

      You cite Bob's lapsed Catholic meme as relevant ignoring the inherent bigotry that meme contains.

      .

      Delete
    5. .

      As I said before, we've all been exposed to racism one place or other.

      You like to imagine that you were above all that.


      We weren't talking racism specifically, we were talking anti-Semitism. That's what you were asking about. The Jews are what, 2%, of the population. Yet, you blame me because my neighborhood didn't get its share of Jews or I wasn't aware of it when I did run into one, that the only Jewish jokes I heard started out "a priest, a minister, and a rabbi walked into a bar."

      I'm tired of you PC bullshit. You said it pretty much with the first line, "I mostly ignore the arguments on both sides."

      Except when you want to throw a little shit in the game.

      .

      Delete
    6. Throughout the 19th century and into the 20th, the Roman Catholic Church still incorporated strong antisemitic elements, despite increasing attempts to separate anti-Judaism (opposition to the Jewish religion on religious grounds) and racial antisemitism. Pope Pius VII (1800–1823) had the walls of the Jewish ghetto in Rome rebuilt after the Jews were emancipated by Napoleon, and Jews were restricted to the ghetto through the end of the Papal States in 1870. Official Catholic organizations, such as the Jesuits, banned candidates "who are descended from the Jewish race unless it is clear that their father, grandfather, and great-grandfather have belonged to the Catholic Church" until 1946.

      Brown University historian David Kertzer, working from the Vatican archive, has argued in his book The Popes Against the Jews that in the 19th century and early 20th century the Roman Catholic Church adhered to a distinction between "good antisemitism" and "bad antisemitism". The "bad" kind promoted hatred of Jews because of their descent. This was considered un-Christian because the Christian message was intended for all of humanity regardless of ethnicity; anyone could become a Christian. The "good" kind criticized alleged Jewish conspiracies to control newspapers, banks, and other institutions, to care only about accumulation of wealth, etc. Many Catholic bishops wrote articles criticizing Jews on such grounds, and, when accused of promoting hatred of Jews, would remind people that they condemned the "bad" kind of antisemitism.

      Dawidowicz writes that the similarities between Luther's anti-Jewish writings and modern antisemitism are no coincidence, because they derived from a common history of Judenhass, which can be traced to Haman's advice to Ahasuerus. Although modern German antisemitism also has its roots in German nationalism and the liberal revolution of 1848, Christian antisemitism she writes is a foundation that was laid by the Roman Catholic Church and "upon which Luther built."[28]

      Delete
    7. .

      I attended high school in the 1960's.

      .

      Delete
    8. But didn't graduate, just attended.

      Delete
    9. QuirkWed Jan 15, 10:15:00 PM EST

      This comment has been removed by the author


      I read that. It was inherently racist, homophobic, misogynist, anti-Semitic, pornographic, seditioius and warlike.....

      Good instincts to take that down, Quirk, before Deuce would be forced to......

      Delete
    10. I thought, I thought, I thought I read a posty too, that said that you were National Merit Award Scholar, gone now, melted like dew.....

      Delete
    11. .

      Not anything quite so juicy. Merely a sarcastic jest that didn't seem funny when I reread it.

      .

      Delete
  23. Interracial Shootings and Vehicular Murder on Maui

    Documented on Video by the kid and a few of his friends.

    Premise of the short a little more or less believable than Obamacare.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ecclesiastes, no less!

      ...I didn't know The Bible was so reactionary on crime.

      Delete
    2. Pretty "funny" to see Kalama III beach park where the kid and I spent most of his preschool days, depicted as the scene for a sordid kidnapping/child molestation!

      Delete
  24. .

    What is "Occupation"Wed Jan 15, 10:09:00 AM EST

    QuirkTue Jan 14, 11:20:00 AM EST
    .
    ME: Deuce asserts that AIPACis making mischief, Quirk says that AIPAC is an Israeli governmental organ...

    QUIRK: There is only one country's interests that AIPAC worries about. And it isn't the US.

    Ah, misleading and inaccurate. How many AIPAC conventions, meetings and or briefings have you attended?

    Do you really think you are qualified to make a judgement about how AIPAC feels about American interests?

    Me thinks you shoot from the hip, but use nicely written words to cover up your with misleading and inaccurate statements.


    In fact I got you to admit your statement was "misleading and inaccurate"


    QuirkTue Jan 14, 12:19:00 PM EST
    I accept it. I merely call it what it is.

    .
    What is "Occupation"Tue Jan 14, 12:49:00 PM EST
    quoting Quirk: I accept it. I merely call it what it is.

    ME: No, you cal lit as YOU see it. You are not the end all of what is true or truth. You have your own bias as does everyone else here

    QuirkTue Jan 14, 12:53:00 PM EST
    A legitimate point.

    Even you admit that you make misleading and inaccurate statements....

    :)


    Reply

    Replies

    Farmer BobWed Jan 15, 11:51:00 AM EST

    Not bad, WiO, not bad at all !

    :)



    You can't make this stuff up, folks.

    WiO, what does that employee you mentioned do for you? Translations?

    You talk about 'misleading and inaccurate statements' and then take the money quotes in your posts completely out of context.

    .

    .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. .

      Here is the actual stream of quotes:

      QuirkTue Jan 14, 11:58:00 AM EST

      Wio: "Notice how it's slanted and makes Iran out to be a innocent, peaceful nation? How America is easily manipulated by "the jews" i.e. AIPAC and the Oil barons of Arabia?"


      Quirk: 2001, Bibi Netanyahu

      Netanyahu: "Especially today, with America. I know what America is. America is something that can easily be moved. Moved to the right direction...

      They won't get in our way. They won't get in our way.

      So let's say they say something. So they said it! They said it! 80% of the Americans support us. It's absurd. We have that kind of support and we say "what will we do with the..."


      Quirk: Some here get upset with a little condescension. Bibi goes beyond condescension to contempt.

      How Americans can be manipulated by the Jews? Bibi certainly believes in it to the point of sending out surveys to American Jews on who they would support in a US/Israeli crisis. Now, that takes a little chutzpah.

      .
      ReplyDelete

      Replies


      Farmer BobTue Jan 14, 12:11:00 PM EST

      Americans are easily manipulated. Look at how easily Obama has done it.

      But American support of Israel isn't a manipulated support.

      It has been there for decades.

      From Administration to Administration, decade after decade.

      Just accept it. That is the way most of us feel, we unwashed.


      QuirkTue Jan 14, 12:19:00 PM EST

      .

      I accept it. I merely call it what it is.

      .
      Delete


      What is "Occupation"Tue Jan 14, 12:49:00 PM EST

      Quirk: I accept it. I merely call it what it is.

      WiO: No, you cal lit as YOU see it. You are not the end all of what is true or truth. You have your own bias as does everyone else here

      QuirkTue Jan 14, 12:53:00 PM EST

      .

      A legitimate point.

      .


      Instead of following the actually flow of the comments and assuming that I was agreeing with his comment that I was posting it as I see it and everyone has their biases, our genius from AIPAC claims I said I offer up misleading and inaccurate statements.

      There was nothing misleading or inaccurate about my statements. I was merely commenting on Bibi's quote.

      .

      Delete
    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    3. Testy, testy, Quirk.

      Have you had your warm milk this evening?

      Remember, the doc said two glasses of warm milk in the evening will help your nerves.

      Delete
    4. .

      ever get tired of making excuses?

      :)

      You are amazing. Yeh, my latest 'excuse' is that WiO is too stupid to follow a blog stream and make a rational argument from the various posts.

      I did notice how giddy you were though when you thought you had caught me, and in the future, I will try to work out a way to throw you a bone now and then, you know, trinkets for the natives. Maybe, it will help improve your underlying problem.

      .

      Delete
    5. .

      Right, Bob.

      Not bad, WiO, not bad at all !

      It's hard getting mad at you, Bob. It would be like whipping a young dog that had chewed on your shoe.

      .

      Delete
  25. Whatever happened to the line of argument that said Bill Clinton got the Israelis to give the Pali's everything they asked for, and the Pali's still backed out?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. No matter how often people disagree, in Arabic both Fatah and Hamas do NOT accept the right of Jews to have a homeland on Arab land. Even if Fatah would make a deal, that still leave Iran's ally Hamas with which to deal, and since Hamas "occupies" land that Fatah is supposed to govern, a sane agreement is impossible.

      Most importantly, any Arab leader making a deal with the "Zionists" is going to be dead. Recall Sadat. Recall the first Hussein of Jordan - dead and dead.

      The issue is not about land; it is about who governs the land. Christians, Jews, and Etc are not welcome.

      Delete
  26. My meme does not contain bigotry......my meme is based on observations made over a lifetime.....and just recently the argument that learned characteristics might actually be passed on genetically.....I do hold that moslems are a lot harder to deconstruct and recondition than Catholics though.....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. .

      ......my meme is based on observations made over a lifetime... which along with $7.50 will get you a large mocha supreme frappe latte at Starbucks.

      .

      Delete
    2. That at least is something....

      A Catholic lapser is one who later in life has reluctantly concluded that "Life Sucks" - something no Catholic could possibly proclaim - but remains emotionally tied to the Mother Church and is immediately defensive and reflexively hostile to criticism of the organization that provided spiritual nourishment to the growing youth earlier in life.

      Thus Quirk can state that life sucks but was angered over the possibility that the new Pope and his investiture might provoke a few light howls of derision in some quarters.....He does, after all, hold Peter's Ring.....

      "Mother Mary may have been a Jew but Lord Jesus sure was not...." and variations on an old sad theme.....

      Delete
    3. .

      Right this diagnosis brought you by Soui Sai Boobi, swami, baba, mystic, fishing guide, and entrepreneur (best doggone homemade zucchini bread west of the continental divide). The diagnosis is based on clear indications that certain critical believes and biases can be instilled subliminally and, in harder cases, through micro-graft surgery.

      .

      Delete
    4. Critical believes can only be instilled by micro-graffiti surgery, you numbskull.

      Once property implanted, they are "non-erasable".

      In other words, "the fish is in the net".

      Delete
  27. Here's a guy that puts even the storied Quirk to shame, Quirk of the high repute......


    LONDON (CBS Atlanta) – A cyclist needed medical intervention at an Irish hospital because an injury he suffered caused his penis to remain erect for nearly two months.

    The unnamed bicyclist sustained an injury on the crossbar of his mountain bike that interfered with the blood flow to his penis.

    A medical report quoted in the Irish Examiner said the biker’s pain and bruising settled within days, but that he sustained ongoing “high-flow” priapism “with rigid erection”.

    After suffering in silence for five weeks, he finally sought medical attention.

    A hospital report said the initial examination “revealed no signs of injury, but penis was erect”.

    Doctors first tried “manual compression” which would work for a short time, but then the penis would become erect again.

    Then they applied a pressure dressing that was in place for two weeks. But once the pressure was removed there was an immediate return of the erection.

    Finally doctors inserted gel foam and four tiny platinum coils at an abnormal connection between an artery and a vein that supplied blood to the man’s penis.

    This successfully reduced the blood supply to the penis, ending the erection.

    One of the medical technicians said, “We were very happy with the outcome.”

    The CDC notes that bicycle parts manufacturers are developing saddles that ease pressure on the genitals

    ReplyDelete
  28. Getting an education in Gaza - (for special sharing with Jenny) - High School Education in Gaza -


    13,000 teens complete Hamas training camps to emulate ‘suicide martyrs’

    Numbers more than double in second year of Gaza’s ‘Pioneers of Liberation’ program; females also trained

    By Elhanan Miller January 15, 2014, 2:33 pm 147


    A child practices disassembling an AK-47 during the Hamas-run 'pioneers of liberation' camps in Gaza (photo credit: Hamas interior ministry website)
    A child practices disassembling an AK-47 during the Hamas-run 'pioneers of liberation' camps in Gaza (photo credit: Hamas interior ministry website)

    Writers


    Elhanan Miller


    Elhanan Miller
    Elhanan Miller is the Arab affairs reporter for The Times of Israel Follow or contact:



    The Hamas government in Gaza celebrated the graduation on Monday of paramilitary camps geared at training high-school children “to follow in the footsteps of the suicide martyrs.”


    The camps, titled “the pioneers of liberation,” are run by Hamas’s ministries of education and interior. Some 13,000 students in grades 10-12 participated in the one-week training camps this year, compared to 5,000 last year when the program was launched, Israeli sources with knowledge of the program said.


    The corps of instructors consists mainly of active members of Hamas’s security forces, and the curriculum includes weapons training, first aid, self defense, marching exercises and “security awareness” classes on identifying Israeli spies.

    Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, Interior Minister Fathi Hammad and Education Minister Usama Mzeini attended the graduation ceremony on Monday, each delivering fiery speeches stressing the importance of military training in developing a new generation of Palestinian combatants.

    Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh (center) attends the graduation ceremony in Gaza, January 13, 2014 (photo credit: Hamas interior ministry website)
    Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh (center) attends the graduation ceremony in Gaza, January 13, 2014 (photo credit: Hamas interior ministry website)

    “Beware this generation,” Haniyeh said, addressing Israel. “This is a generation which knows no fear. It is the generation of the missile, the tunnel and the suicide operations.”

    The Hamas prime minister added that female trainers are also on staff “to oversee the training of the young women to follow in the footsteps of the female suicide operatives.”

    Hammad, the interior minister, said the training was in preparation for the coming war with Israel.

    “This generation is a sapling from God on earth. It will harvest the enemies of God and be the pride of all nations,” he said.

    Hamdi Shaqura, deputy director of program affairs at the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, a Gaza-based watchdog, said that his organization issued no statement on the training.

    “To the best of my knowledge no other organization in Gaza issued a statement either,” he told The Times of Israel.

    A child practices shooting at the 'pioneers of liberation' camp in Gaza (photo credit: Hamas interior ministry website)
    A child practices shooting at the ‘pioneers of liberation’ camp in Gaza (photo credit: Hamas interior ministry website)

    Omar Dawabha, an eleventh-grader who took part in the training, was quoted on the website of Hamas’s interior ministry saying that “he learned how to safeguard our rights and principles.” Another student, Mohammed Abu Nar, addressed the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem at the graduation ceremony.

    “We are the pioneers of liberation, we are coming to purify you from the Zionists,” he said.


    Read more: 13,000 teens complete Hamas training camps to emulate 'suicide martyrs' | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-paramilitary-camps-prepare-teens-for-martyrdom/#ixzz2qY5cmt26
    Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They even train their young girls to blow themselves up - more proof, if any is still needed - as to how far advanced they are on issues of women's rights compared to the Israelis.....

      Delete