Real HeroesTobruk, Libya. 25 April 1953. Group portrait of five Victoria Cross winners, members of the Australian and New Zealand Coronation Contingent, in the Tobruk War Cemetery, during their brief stay while on their way to England to attend the coronation of Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II. They are, left to right: Private (Pte) F. J. Partridge VC, (Australia); Pte E. Kenna VC, (Australia); 215003 Sergeant J. D. Hinton VC, (New Zealand); Pte R. Kelliher VC, (Australia); Sergeant R. R. Rattey VC.
The Fab Fifteen, post ordeal
(I feel sorry for the three on the right)
MoD: Captured crew can sell their stories
By Emma Henry and agencies
Last Updated: 10:17am BST 08/04/2007
The 15 British service personnel held captive in Iran have been given official permission to cash in on their 13-day ordeal by selling their stories to the media.
The Ministry of Defence said it had taken the unusual decision because of the "exceptional circumstances" surrounding their situation.
It means that the eight Royal Navy sailors and seven Royal Marines can now look forward to five or six-figure payouts.
However the move could also expose them to criticism from others in the Armed Forces who have suffered as a result of the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan but have not been allowed to profit in the same way
The MoD said they attracted similar intense media interest as someone who had won the Victoria Cross - the military's highest award for gallantry in the face of enemy fire.
"Serving personnel are not allowed to enter into financial arrangements with media organisations. However, in exceptional circumstances such as the award of a Victoria Cross or events such as those in recent days, permission can be granted by commanding officers and the MoD," the statement said.
____________________
Buoyant Teheran warns of further kidnappings
By Gethin Chamberlain, Philip Sherwell and Tim Shipman, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 11:56pm BST 07/04/2007
Hardliners in the Iranian regime have warned that the seizure of British naval personnel demonstrates that they can make trouble for the West whenever they want to and do so with impunity.
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: a PR bounce
The bullish reaction from Teheran will reinforce the fears of western diplomats and military officials that more kidnap attempts may be planned.
The British handling of the crisis has been regarded with some concern in Washington, and a Pentagon defence official told The Sunday Telegraph: "The fear now is that this could be the first of many. If the Brits don't change their rules of engagement, the Iranians could take more hostages almost at will.
Would I be as harsh if these were Americans? Brutal.
ReplyDeleteI do feel sorry for the three lads on the right side of the picture.
ReplyDeleteWoman sailor sells her story in lucrative deal
ReplyDeleteBy Chris Hastings, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 11:56pm BST 07/04/2007
Faye Turney, the woman sailor at the centre of the Iran hostage crisis, is to reveal the trauma of her 13-day ordeal in a solo interview.
Faye Turney: The deal involves a 'life-changing sum'
Leading Seaman Turney, who was paraded on Iranian television during her captivity, is understood to have agreed a lucrative deal with ITV's Tonight with Trevor McDonald for a special programme to be broadcast tomorrow evening.
It is thought the deal will also involve an interview with a tabloid newspaper. A source at the MoD said it involved a "life-changing sum".
But the involvement of a large amount of money and her decision to be interviewed on her own could backfire.
Ldg Seaman Turney, 26, was warned last night that the interview and payment could attract controversy, given the deaths of four British soldiers, including two women, in Basra on the day that she was released.
Fantasy Celebrity "War"
ReplyDelete---
Real War:
All Stationed in Hawaii
2164th: I do feel sorry for the three lads on the right side of the picture.
ReplyDeleteThat's very odd, I wonder how the ones with a shred of dignity managed to clump together apart from the dirty dozen? If it was up to me I'd track them down and give them a plane ticket to the home of the brave.
Purple Fingers Choice:
ReplyDeleteThe Nov. 19 killings have placed Haditha in the spotlight, prompted comparisons to Vietnam and damaged U.S.-Iraqi relations.
Iraq Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has called the deaths "a horrible crime," and accused U.S. troops of habitually attacking unarmed civilians.
When I first read this, I thought maybe it was clever satire. Even after seeing the story with my own eyes on the British web site, it still seems unreal, like something out of a Monte Python skit.
ReplyDeleteIt is common for US military generals, etc. to write books after they retire, which is usually years after things happened, but it is amazing for active service personnel to be giving details of an event like this days after it happened. Isn't any of this information classified, like the operational details? The debriefings were so short that the British commanders will probably learn new details from the tabloid interview.
All along this had the feeling that the hostages just wanted to get it over with so they could be on the British equivalent of Oprah, but I couldn't believe it. When the sailors first got back home the government said something like "The briefing will be short, and it will be to meet their needs [not ours]". Then the hostages said they wanted to be "given space".
I actually started reading through the "History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" a week ago, to see if they had the same signs that our Anglo-Saxon countries do (US, UK, Aust.).
TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Iran's Foreign Ministry spokesman said Sunday that his country has been searching for a former FBI agent missing in Iran for almost a month.
ReplyDeleteLevinson's relatives said last week they are worried and doing everything possible to find him.
U.S. officials, meanwhile, have downplayed the disappearance as routine.
---
He disappeared.
Routinely.
Wu,
ReplyDeleteThe Generals will be able to mimic Bubba:
"I honestly didn't know about it until I read it in the Mirror."
Wu Wei said...
ReplyDeleteWhen I first read this, I thought maybe it was clever satire. Even after seeing the story with my own eyes on the British web site, it still seems unreal, like something out of a Monte Python skit.
Brilliant observation wu. Wish I would have thought of it.
On a previous thread I posted a picture of some little shiite with a smirk on his face holding a helmet. This morning in the Express is an article about the young woman. who's head was in the helmet. Look at the picture.
ReplyDeleteThe "Black Knight" wins, again, aye?
ReplyDeleteFury as hostages sell story
ReplyDeleteTake a look at these story, from what appears to be a conservative UK newspaper. It gets even wilder. (Honestly, I am NOT making this up.)
Quotes from newspapers:
One of the hostages, Dean Harris, 30, an acting sergeant in the Royal Marines, told a Sunday Times reporter yesterday: “I want £70,000. That is based on what the others have told me they have been offered. I know Faye has been offered a heck more than that. I am worth it because I was one of only two who didn’t crack.”
He claimed the marines were planning to sell on eBay the vases given to them in their “goody bags” by the Iranians.
The freedom they were given surprised Max Clifford, the storybroker, who said the MoD was “frogmarching them out to win the propaganda war”.
Colonel Bob Stewart, a commander of British UN forces in Bosnia, said: “I am appalled the MoD is encouraging them to profit from a military disaster. Some of them are acting like reality TV stars.”
----
This weekend relatives of victims killed or injured in the Iraq war and opposition politicians criticised the authorisation as “inappropriate” and “undignified”. It comes only three days after their release and before they have given detailed evidence to an official inquiry.
Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, said: “One of the great things about our armed forces is their professionalism and dignity. Many people who shared the anxiety of the hostages’ abduction will feel that selling their stories is somewhat undignified and falls below the very high standards we have come to expect from our servicemen and women.”
Rose Gentle, whose son Gordon Gentle was killed by a roadside bomb in Basra in Iraq, said the MoD should not allow the servicemen to sell their stories. “This is wrong and I don’t think it should be allowed by the MoD. None of the parents who have lost loved ones in Iraq have sold their stories,” she said.
"Color the rest pink"
ReplyDeletefunny ...
Just when you think it can't get any worse:
ReplyDeleteSTATEMENT FROM THE ROMAN CATHOLIC BISHOP OF THE FORCES
For whether we are Christian or Moslem, we profess to hold a faith that comes from Abraham – the Father of all Nations. We adore the one, merciful God, who will be mankind’s judge on the last day. All nations form one community. We come from the one God who created us, and we will return to the one God as our common destiny. One day we will all be gathered in the holy city of God, where there will be perfect peace and harmony, and everyone will be reconciled. In an important way, today represents building some of that city today in our midst.
ReplyDelete"... and everyone will be reconciled."
Right out of the White House.
ReplyDeleteFrom Mr Bush's lips to many ears.
"Give them some space, to reconcile"
This post by fellowpeacekeeper is worth of a note and comment. He knows what he is talking about.
ReplyDeleteRAMALLAH, West Bank — Israel is reviewing a list of hundreds of Palestinians prisoners that Gaza militants want released in exchange for a captured Israeli soldier, an official and media reports said Sunday, in a sign of potential progress in the 10-month standoff over a deal.
ReplyDeleteThe release of Israeli Cpl. Gilad Shalit is a precondition for any possible progress in Israeli-Palestinian peace efforts. A swap could also help the new Palestinian unity government, a coalition of the Islamic militant Hamas and the moderate Fatah movements, in its quest for international acceptance.
There were conflicting reports on the captors' demands. Some said the list contained close to 500 names, while others said there were twice as many. A Palestinian close to the negotiations was told that among those on the list is Palestinian uprising leader Marwan Barghouti, who is serving five consecutive life terms for his role in shooting attacks that killed four Israelis and a Greek monk.
How weak will Israel be percieved, vis a vie England, if hundreds of Palis are released, in a detainee swap
The Iraqi Army is doing excellent, there in
ReplyDeleteLamla also confirmed that insurgents attack the multinational base in Diwaniyah on a daily basis but said his forces cannot return fire because the attacks come from residential areas. "We do not want to hurt residents," he said.
Doh! This problem is old, they seem to have lost control of central Diwaniyah last year. I would like to hear General Llama explain why is a military base is maintained a easy mortar/rocket attack from a insurgent save haven? Or if the base is immovable, why is the no-go area permitted? And what exactly does MND(CS) actually do in Diwaniyah anyway, since they have handed over responsiblity for the district to local forces last year?
Underscoring the threat, police said gunmen attacked an American patrol in Diwaniyah and two civilians were wounded in clashes.
Police, which police? The militia supporting ones? Who were the gunmen, maybe they were police?
In spite of his criticism to Iraqi police, Lamla praised the Iraqi army's 8th Division which is in charge of Kut and Diwaniyah.
"This division is the best formation in the Iraqi army, it is well-equipped and has the best commander and officers and are doing excellent job in a very wide and sprawling area ," he said.
"Excellent job" ... excellent?
or so reports the peacekeeper
Check out the motto on the wall
First to Go - Last to Know
ROP
ReplyDeleteReconciliation of Peace.
Meanwhile Grandma P, and her touring group of Spring Breakers, stopped in Portugal where the tour guide said this:
ReplyDeletePelosi said Friday she had paid no attention to the dustup back in the United States.
She also said the delegation was not trying to cut deals between Syria and Israel but rather "assessing the ground truth" to inform spending decisions made by Congress.
"What others were saying and doing was many miles away, in a different time zone and had no impact on our trip except to call more attention to it," Pelosi said.
NAW!
ReplyDeleteNew Age "War"fare.
Pelosi and W deserve each other:
ReplyDelete"Leaders" from Hell.
> ...God, who will be mankind’s judge on the last day.
ReplyDeleteThe Priest is talking about the end of the world, not a peace treaty now.
The Bitch that never misses a cuckholding,
ReplyDeleteand the Wuss that takes it on the other cheek.
In an important way, today represents building some of that city today in our midst.
ReplyDeleteSounds like he's talkin' about TODAY, when he says "today represents..."
Building towards reconciliation.
TODAY
Huh?
ReplyDeleteTillman's brother came home, right?
"Holly Dyer, who is also an Army officer, was at home on leave from Iraq when she was told of her sister’s death. She will have to attend 23-year-old Joanna’s funeral before returning to complete a further tour of duty in the country where her sister, a friend of Prince William, was murdered by Shia militants."
Looks like my sis in law, also deceased, from the "free" love cancer.
He would still have been a Ranger for a while, four years from the enlistment date in May of '02, anyway. Jr went in Sep that year, but enlisted in May. Lots of patriotic war fever here in AZ, then.
ReplyDeleteEverybody wanted to "go get some".
Whether he was redeployeed or stayed at Ft Stewart, wouldn't know. I assume he got out.
Mrs Veck has suffered the ordeal of watching television pictures of grinning Iraqis clutching her daughter’s helmet moments after the bomb blast in which she and three comrades, with their Kuwaiti interpreter, were killed.
ReplyDelete“There are lots of innocent people in Iraq and it was my little girl’s job to go out there and help them, not the people we saw on television holding up her helmet,” said the 41-year-old hotel manager.
“There are lots of people around the world who need our help. If it’s our job to help them then that’s what we should do. Nothing could have stopped her from serving her country. She was doing exactly what she wanted and she had always dreamed of joining the army.
---
We deserve better leaders.
Who would want to be reconciled with a Muzzie in Hell?
ReplyDelete>Mrs Veck has suffered the ordeal of watching television pictures of grinning Iraqis clutching her daughter’s helmet
ReplyDeleteI hope that doesn't lead us to cut and run like when they dragged the bodies through the streets in Somalia. The US needs to be stronger and not so easily manipulated by images. We know there are pro-terrorist people there who want to bomb up and then desecrate the bodies and anything which is left over. Those people may have been told lies about us.
Deuce's link reminds me of Steyn on Miller's Show:
ReplyDelete"They're over there watching, saying,
These people WANT to submit."
COOL
I should add, I agree with what the mother said, which is very heroic. She clearly explains that some Iraqis want us there and some don't.
ReplyDeleteThe real reason for being in Iraq though is self-defense, whether some Iraqis like us or not. The goal always has to be the fewest deaths we can have while still keeping our freedom.
Deuce:
ReplyDeleteThat Bishop is one sick Shithead!
...I thot my Presby Ministers were bad!
"The goal always has to be the fewest deaths we can have while still keeping our freedom."
ReplyDelete---
W receives an *F* on that score.
It is my fervent hope that the lessons we will all learn from this incident are that:
ReplyDeleteprayers in faith are answered
anxiety can provide a trigger for good
violations of sea- and air-space happen all the time, even around Britain, and the intruders are sent on their way. But it is important to keep a cool head so that these sensitive occasions depend on a unity of purpose to bring about a realistic and speedy solution.
charts and treaties need constant updating in order to avoid any confusion and misunderstanding
we are all called to share the limited resources available in this world for the benefit of all
there is a goodness within mankind that can triumph over every difficulty – as is eminently shown by this Holy Week in which we find ourselves.
Tra la la.
ReplyDeleteThe US and its' freedoms have been defended for over 200 years, without an US Army in Iraq.
ReplyDeleteThere is no threat in Iraq, certainly not just 500 aQ foreigners and a couple thousand aQIraq, that requires 150,000 US troops.
Those troops are required to secure Mr Maliki's Government, not the US's. The two are not the same.
I could and have argue that Mr Maliki and his team are opponents to US strategic interests in the Region.
So there you go, your basic premise of defense yet to be proved. If "They" were coming here, the 50,000 terrorists trained in Afghanistan and the thousands of foreigners that have been reported cycled through live fire training, against US, in Iraq.
Troops deployments in Ramadi will not stop a Pakistani or Suad hit team nor the next homegrown Mohammed and Malvo.
Keeping Iraq out of the picture for the sake of argument,
ReplyDeleteand re:
"W receives an *F* on that score."
---
40 THOUSAND have died thanks to W's ongoing open-borders policy.
Real People, really DEAD.
43 K Dead, and Half a Trillion later,
ReplyDeleteHere we are.
(Mullahs laugh, hysterically)
I guess what I meant about the Priest's statement is that it is the same pacifism that they've been using my whole life. Whenever conflict breaks out somewhere in the world, the Pope issues a statement saying the fighting should stop, blah blah blah. I'm not Catholic so I don't know the ins and outs, but it seems to always be the same.
ReplyDeletePacifism is the least harmful when it is out in the open, like when people expect a religious figure to be pacifist. The dangerous pacifism is that of the Left, which pretends that it only opposes THIS war, and has a non-pacifist reason for doing so.
We are about 7k short of Vietnam, which stretched over multiple admins, when INNOCENT CIVILIANS are included.
ReplyDeleteGood job, W.
AND,
ReplyDeleteI left out the 3k of 9-11:
46 THOUSAND.
The dangerous pacifism is having a CIC that oversees 46k DEAD, and still spouts ROP Bullshit.
ReplyDeleteThe White House's draft plan, leaked last week, calls for a new "Z" visa that would allow illegal immigrant workers to apply for three-year work permits. They would be renewable indefinitely, but would cost $3,500 each time.
ReplyDeleteThen to become legal permanent residents, illegal immigrants would have to return to their home country, apply at a U.S. embassy or consulate to re-enter legally and pay a $10,000 fine.
The proposal has been sharply criticized by Hispanic advocacy groups, many Democrats, the Roman Catholic Church and unions that have many immigrants in their ranks. They argue the cost of work permits and the green card application are prohibitive for low-wage earners.
"For my wife and I it would cost about $30,000," said Francisco Gomez, 41, who along with his wife is in the country illegally. "Multiply that by all the illegal immigrants here ... It's obvious Bush just wants to fund his Iraq war with our money."
Maria Lopez, 50, an illegal immigrant who works as a seamstress and sends $200 a month home to family members in Mexico, said she could never apply for residency under Bush's plan.
"We have no way to come up with that much money, and Bush knows that," she said. "He is doing this on purpose so we don't ever become legal residents."
The march passed through one of most heavily Hispanic districts in downtown, collecting people who had come to do their weekend shopping. Stopping at City Hall, protesters danced to beating drums and listened to immigrant rights speakers.
Alfredo Gonzalez, 33, an illegal immigrant from Mexico, marched with his wife and daughters, ages 6 and 8. He said he fears the stepped-up immigration raids happening across the country.
"If they kick me out, who is going to take care of my daughters? The government? I don't think so," said Gonzalez, who works in construction. "We need full legalization and we need it now."
The White House plan is far more conservative than the one passed by the Senate last year with bipartisan backing and support from President Bush. That plan would have allowed many of the country's illegal immigrants to stay in the United States, work and apply to become legal residents after learning English, paying small fines and back taxes and clearing a background check.
Many Senate conservatives opposed that plan. It failed to gain traction in the then Republican-controlled House, which at the end of 2005 passed a punitive immigration reform bill that angered immigrant communities and led to massive protests.
Many protesters said they were frustrated that immigration reform hadn't been passed, despite all the protests and activism in immigrant communities over the last year.
Rocio Estrada, a 24-year-old illegal immigrant from Mexico, said she wanted to attend nursing school but couldn't afford it because she couldn't get financial aid without legal residency.
"We just came here for a dream," she said, holding her 4-year-old son. "The more they deport people the more we are going to come back."
> So there you go, your basic premise of defense yet to be proved.
ReplyDeleteI think it is absolutely proven, and I didn't need to prove it in the first place. Can you prove it wouldn't be dangerous to let Al Qaeda form a base camp in Iraq like the one in Afghanistan which they launched 9/11 from?
What meaning is there to the global war on terror if we let Al Qaeda take over Iraq, or a portion of it? How could the US have any credibility if we say bin Laden and Al Qaeda are our mortal enemies, then we cut & run out of Iraq and let Al Qaeda have it? That's especially true when the Iraqis (Sunnis) have partnered with us and are begging us to stay and defeat Al Qaeda.
""For my wife and I it would cost about $30,000," said Francisco Gomez, 41, who along with his wife is in the country illegally.
ReplyDelete"Multiply that by all the illegal immigrants here ... It's obvious Bush just wants to fund his Iraq war with our money.""
---
Hey, Francisco:
"He" already told you what he is, now all you gotta do is negotiate the price!
On principle, wu, I oppose War.
ReplyDeleteAny sane person would.
But there is war and then there is what the US practices in Iraq, which is policing.
The two are not the same.
FallujahII, that was a war
Haditha, a year later, was policing.
Same Marines, same equipment, same Iraqi culture. Different Rules.
If you commit a Nation to war, go to war. Don't half-step down the ambush trail, break some brush.
Wu's back to defending the indefensible:
ReplyDeleteYou don't conduct war in a non-warlike manner.
You don't secure borders by offering ever-better deals for border crossers.
OUT.
Certainly that is provable.
ReplyDeleteThere have been and are often taken down CURRENT aQ bases in Iraq. US presence has not curtailed them, in fact has provided live fire training for aQ trainees from Algeria and Europe. Training that was unavailable in 2000.
The US has permitted aQ camps to be established and enlarged in Pakistan, gave Taliban operatives control of sections of Afghanistan, under NATO/Brit decisions, allows aQ training in Sudan.
US presence in Iraq did not deter Mohammedan attacks in Spain, England, US, France, Belgium or Holland.
The aQ battleplan was to engage the US in a tar baby war, either in the Middle East or Southwest Asia, they got both. They have no shortage of combat leadership or recruits, per General McCaffery.
I never said a word about amnesty here. Maybe I was confused with someone else.
ReplyDeleteI am not part of the Bush Administration, and have been a frequent critic of him. I am not responsible for him or the way he fights wars.
(temporarily) IN:
ReplyDeleteBill Clinton prevented any "attacks on America" from 1993 until he left office.
(Sailors and such don't count.)
but sometimes you DO
ReplyDeletesound like an apologist,
WU!
"The real reason for being in Iraq though is self-defense, whether some Iraqis like us or not. The goal always has to be the fewest deaths we can have while still keeping our freedom.
ReplyDelete"
Don't stand up to reality, under CIC "W"
ReplyDeleteGeneral McCaffery makes an ineresting point.
ReplyDeleteUpon US entry and for at least a decade prior Iraq could house 20 to 25,000 criminal prisoners.
About 1% of the population.
Genral McCaffery said prison capacity for 150,000 is required.
6% of the population.
The General also puts enemy combat KIA at 20,000+, with the enemy constantly improving despite the losses.
Reconciliation between the anti aQ Sunni and the Shia Government still far away.
Yeah, but reconciliation is EVERYTHING, baby!
ReplyDeleteWhat's the US Prison figure?
ReplyDeleteThose damned lefties claim it's the highest in the world.
(not too hard to believe, given two hots, cots, AC, TV, weightrooms, and etc)
ReplyDeleteThose Sunni now being recruited into the Police will behave with similar loyalty patterns to the Shia Police in Basra.
ReplyDeleteTheir loyalty will not be tranfered to the Government in Baghdad, when they put on that police uniform..
"To my own Tribe,
ReplyDeletebe True."
Hell, that's what they do in Hawaii, for property crimes, and sometimes much more!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"You got to give,
ReplyDeleteto get."
---
True story of some dude that ripped off multiple cases of Bud from a local restaurant business, so he could GIVE them at his parties in his tire shop!
---
My one experience in Jury Duty.
I, and some 70 year old lady were the only ones with enough balls to secure a guilty verdict.
(probly overturned on appeal)
300 million : 2 million
ReplyDelete.666%
Five years ago America's prison population topped 2 million inmates for the first time in history on June 30, 2002 according to a new report from the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).
The 50 states, the District of Columbia and the federal government held 1,355,748 prisoners (two-thirds of the total incarcerated population), and local municipal and county jails held 665,475 inmates.
By midyear 2002, America's jails held 1 in every 142 U.S. residents. Males were incarcerated at the rate of 1,309 inmates per 100,000 U.S. men, while the female incarceration rate was 113 per 100,000 women residents.
Of the 1,200,203 state prisoners, 3,055 were younger than 18 years old. In addition, adult jails held 7,248 inmates under 18.
Federal, state and local prisons see increases
During the 12-month period ending last June 30, the local jail population increased by 34,235 inmates, the largest increase (5.4 percent) since 1997.
...
Non-citizen prison population also growing
As of last June 30, state and federal correctional authorities held 88,776 non-citizens, a 1 percent increase from the 87,917 held a year earlier. Sixty-two percent were held in state prisons and 38 percent in federal institutions
"You got to give,
ReplyDeleteto get."
---
That's what the perp said on the stand!
...the majority bought it.
> You don't conduct war in a non-warlike manner.
ReplyDeleteA counter insurgency war is not world war II. It's a lot tougher, and if our country too weak to fight a counter insurgency war, then we will lose the global war on terror and our freedom.
I don't believe all the stuff about rules of engagement because our military is not the soft. When they are faced with crappy rules of engagement (like in every war), the troops change them or disobey them, whatever it takes to win. Our military has always been "can-do". Wars are won and lost in the field, not by the commander in chief.
Math mistake alert!
ReplyDeleteSaddam could jail .1% of his people
General McCaffery wants to up Iraqi capacity to US ratios of .666% or above.
Iran is patient. Hezbollah is patient. They don't have to fight every battle like World War II. If we can't do the same thing...
ReplyDelete5:39 p.m. April 6, 2007
ReplyDeleteLOS ANGELES – A driver arrested after the crash that killed “A Christmas Story” director Bob Clark and his son pleaded not guilty Friday to two counts of gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated.
Prosecutors say Hector Velazquez-Nava, a 24-year-old Mexican national, was drunk when he steered his sport utility vehicle into the wrong lane of Pacific Coast Highway early Wednesday, and struck Clark's sedan. Clark, 67 and his son, Ariel Hanrath-Clark, 22, died at the scene.
Velazquez-Nava had a blood-alcohol level of 0.24 percent, three times the legal limit, authorities said. Both he and his passenger were treated for minor injuries.
“The family
Wu,
ReplyDeleteBS
I've done counter insurgency, trained foreigners in the task, we won.
ReplyDeletePeople were killed, bad guys & civilians, too.
Lots of folk displaced, moved, refugeed. None made better by it.
The "long term" result of the "success" is MS-13 spreading across the US.
"I don't believe all the stuff about rules of engagement because our military is not the (THAT) soft"
ReplyDelete---
LTc Kurrila if proof that you are WRONG.
Hundreds of others have died proving it.
Since Mr Ortega, the then "enemy" has been elected, as a minority vote getting President.
ReplyDeletePeace in our Time.
PIOT
ReplyDeleteROP
COOL
The two Lance Cpl tried it your way, wu.
ReplyDeleteRolling frags into rooms, prior to entry. Same as they did in Fallujah, a year before.
After being told, reportedly according to investigators
"Shoot first, ask questions later" by their SSg
The two E3s have been charged with murder.
Hadithia Marines 60 minutes, goodle away, read a first hand account, by the SSg.
The biggest part of Velazquez-Nava's "punishment" will be deportation.
ReplyDelete...same thing as hard-working campesinos get when we selectively enforce the law.
Prison and Humiliation ain't no big thing, 'Rat.
ReplyDelete...when you're doing it for your Country and CIC.
60 minutes?
ReplyDeletethe opposite is true!
"Wu Wei said...
ReplyDeleteIran is patient.
Hezbollah is patient. They don't have to fight every battle like World War II. If we can't do the same thing..."
---
Nothing like slow failure.
The hurt feels SO Good.
Statistics from '05 via WaPo and google
ReplyDeleteA record 7 million people -- one in every 32 US adults -- were behind bars, on probation or on parole by the end of last year, a Justice Department report ...
1 in 32, tad over 3%
Read it, the SSgt is on shaky ground, but the E3s...
ReplyDeleteSSgt - Where did he depart from SOP about entering building from which they were receiving fire?
ReplyDeleteThe US has never shown patience, wu.
ReplyDeleteTo develop a strategic or tactical policy that requires it, fool hardy.
You go to war with the Country you've got, adapt accordingly.
Do not expect the US to change, without an exitensial threat.
Islam, the Religion of Peace, is by the choice of words used, no threat at all.
They fragged the rooms, without seeing the threat, first.
ReplyDeleteAMEN!!!
ReplyDeleteTHAT was for your post about "country you've got"
ReplyDeletewasn't the threat incoming fire from said buildings?
ReplyDeleteDo not expect the US to change, without an existential threat.
ReplyDeleteIslam, the Religion of Peace, is by the choice of words used, no threat at all.
Yup
"For whether we are Christian or Moslem, we profess to hold a faith that comes from Abraham – the Father of all Nations. We adore the one, merciful God, who will be mankind’s judge on the last day."
ReplyDeleteARMEN.
ReplyDeleteSo it was said.
ReplyDeleteBut they did not identify a specific window or location in the building.
Each room becomes a new situation.
By not identifying the individual target, the actual armed threat, the Marines killed nonthreatening Iraqi.
Recall Yon's suprise that the bionic runner was not fired up, after he dropped the detonator? He was no longer a threat, not a legit target of lethal force.
I doubt that the Marines were out there with concussion grenades, flash bangs, that police are equipped with. Did they even have a choice in weaponry?
The E3s, I do feel for them. As one of the mothers said:
"The Marines abandoned my son"
I tend to agree.
re: Prisoners in Saddam's day.
ReplyDelete"About 1% of the population."
Probly about what we had under Eisenhower, proving you don't have to have a Fascist Dictator to maintain law and order.
"The Marines abandoned my son"
ReplyDeleteTHAT is for sure.
"Recall Yon's suprise that the bionic runner was not fired up, after he dropped the detonator? He was no longer a threat, not a legit target of lethal force."
ReplyDelete---
Dan and I say Nuke em!
Trish recoils and offers offspring as sacrifices!
(JOKE, Trish!)
Back when Ike was POTUS,
ReplyDeleteand PC and Multiculti
had yet to be fantasized,
Law and order did not mean a fascist state, it simply meant that laws were enforced right side up.
(w/o ACLU Lawyers, Bobal)
...not perfect, many blacks and Hispanics not treated equally, but on the whole, it was not upside down, like today.
Previous thread. (if Habu can, I can!)
ReplyDeleteVon Neuman loved to drink, party, and etc. and had a racing team of Ferraris and such.
Could have been an EB member, but he was too smart!
"Von Neumann was married twice. He married Mariette Kövesi in 1930.
ReplyDeleteWhen he proposed to her, he was incapable of expressing anything beyond
"You and I might be able to have some fun together, seeing as how we both like to drink."
True EB Pledge, except for those damned smarts.
...he was a polymath, also.
To paraphrase:
ReplyDeleteWhen politics permeate every sector of life, we call it Totalitarianism. When religion permeates every sector of life,
we call it Theocracy. When commerce
dominates everything, some call it Liberty.
On a side note,
Price is perception. Perception does not always equal reality. And reality is always subject to change (but that's just a man-made law of thermodynamics).
Von_Neumann
ReplyDeleteAtom Bomb, Computer, H-Bomb, and etc.
Inspiration for Simoni, now in space, and developer of Word, Excel, and now, Intentional Software.
Another damned Joo,
ReplyDeleteMat!
Doug,
ReplyDeleteHere's a little something I'm prescribing to calm the nerves:
Luxuria Music
Hope you enjoy! :)
ReplyDeleteI want my NITROUS!
ReplyDeleteYou'll blow your engine with that stuff!
ReplyDeleteWe just can't afford a new cork padding every time you blow a gasket!
ReplyDeleteI can't Permatex Gasket Sealant!
ReplyDelete...but I have a NEED for Speed.
ReplyDeleteUse a rubber. :D
ReplyDeleteCRAP!
ReplyDelete"I can't AFFORD Permatex Gasket Sealant!"
Money can't buy you love.
ReplyDeleteHey, how come we're not on this list!?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq-blogs.htm
The oddest thing about this for me has been the fact that these peope are Royal Marines. In other words, supposedly elite troops. The Royal Marine Corps is much smaller than the American version and, insofar as exclusivity is concerned, about equal to American Rangers.
ReplyDeleteIs the woman a Royal Marine or merely Navy? Look at how obese she is (even setting aside the fact we don't allow female Rangers). Either they fed her extremely well or fitness standards are in the toilet.
Looking it up, it appears the woman was Royal Navy.
ReplyDeleteThat's a slight relief.
"I do feel sorry for the three lads on the right side of the picture."
ReplyDeleteComplete agreement.
> To develop a strategic or tactical policy that requires it, fool hardy.
ReplyDeleteSo are Iran and Hezbollah fool hardy for not trying to fight their battles like world war II? If they are that stupid, then why bother fighting them? They're bound to lose. If World War II fighting is the only thing that matters, then we can ignore the Islamists until they have armies the size of Hitler. Terrorism doesn't matter, according to that argument.
It's fun to pretend that all wars are one uniformed army shooting another, with a clean surrender at the end, but the world was never that way. There was always conventional fighting and guerrilla wars.
Retreat into believing that we have a fantasy opponent who is easy to beat won't win the war. We have a tougher enemy than that.
"Mrs Veck has suffered the ordeal of watching television pictures of grinning Iraqis clutching her daughter’s helmet."
ReplyDeletePreaching to the choir, but I can't believe SOP isn't to kill these people, in Fallujah, Mogadishu, wherever shouldn't matter. Young, old, female, male, you're prancing around on burning allied equipment, dragging bodies, you should be dead.
In most cases it wouldn't even require anything other than a UAV and smart bomb.
No one has been found guilty at Haditha. It's just an investigation. I believe in America, and that the system works.
ReplyDeleteAn example was when those wounded prisoners were shot by US Marines inside a mosque, the ones filmed by Kevin Sites. At the time, some said the Marines would never have a fair chance, and the investigation would be rigged against them because of the political pressure.
However what really happened was that the investigation cleared the Marines of all charges against them. The system worked.
"The corporal reasonably believed that [the wounded Iraqi] posed a hostile threat to him and his fellow marines and justifiably fired in self-defense. The enhanced videotape of the shooting supports the corporal's claim that the wounded [combatant] was concealing his left arm behind his head." - U.S. Marine Corps, May 4, 2005.
> When they are faced with crappy rules of engagement (like in every war), the troops change them or disobey them, whatever it takes to win.
ReplyDeleteThose are my words, and I wanted to emphasize that I said "change them or". I am talking about officers working within the system to change the rules. I was not saying that the problem is solved just by noncoms and enlisted men disobeying their rules of engagement.
The Haditha Marines are at trial, now.
ReplyDeleteJust like Border Patrolmen.
The fellow waving the helmet of that British lovely, not a target.
Has not been for over three years.
No weapon in hand.
Policemen in Iraq.
Bustin' up the Army, for that.
47 recruits, $62,000 net after tax bonus.
Jr joined the Guard, last week, he has an achievable Goal. 28 credit hours and 28 recruits, next year.
Wu Wei,
ReplyDeletere: No one has been found guilty at Haditha. It's just an investigation. I believe in America, and that the system works.
WW, that is so not cool.
Who needs a trial when we have the expert squirts at the EB.
wu, the US is not at war with Iran.
ReplyDeleteNor really with hezzbollah.
But not at all with Iran.
Not by Law, today.
None made public, anyway.
Hezzbollah is strongest in Lebanon, the US is in no war there.
The triCorner region of South America.
No US war there, though Hezzbollah is.
Venezuela, where Hezzbollah is provided forged documentation and both recieves and provides training? No War there.
There may be a War of Words. Professor Lewis may expound
Mr Perle may have ideas
And Mr Bush can be quoted.
But the US is not at War.
It is attempting a reconciliation.
> Your 1:35 only supports Rat's complaint: That was the Falluja one-off.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the point, that there should never be investigations?
What about the case of the alleged rape / murder of the Iraqi teen, supposedly led by a soldier who had been discharged from the Army for a personality disorder? Was it wrong to investigate that? Are there groups which say it is a frame up, and it was self defense?
Almost every action we take, some Iraqi comes forward and says that civilians were killed. Yet very few of those end up going as far as the mosque incident, and even fewer end up in court martials and trials. That seems to be a sign that the system is fair.
> All ROE - and any changes thereto - local or theater, must be vetted by JAG.
ReplyDeleteDoes the JAG have a commanding officer? Follow some sort of written rules by senior lawyers and commanders?
If there's a problem, fix it.
The problem, wu, is the system. Mr Rumsfeld said on FOX and was quoted, so it'd be out there somewhere, that he could not understand the Rules, as they were sent out of the Pentagon to the Commanders in the field.
ReplyDeleteBut they were outside his pervue.
They are the legal basis of the Policies we engage in.
Promoting Civil Authority. Not war fighting. The War has been over for years. The civil unrest, sectarian and gang violence is not and will not end soon.
It is a criminal and political problem, without a military solution. Read General P, he's been profound in his statements.
Read the bing west piece, he explains it in detail.
> The fellow waving the helmet of that British lovely, not a target.
ReplyDeleteHas not been for over three years.
What about the little tyke in the left corner who looks more like he's ready to cry, holding up something? Should he be a target too?
This isn't an Al Qaeda photo, it is taken by Associated Press. Should they be targets, or forbidden to take pictures?
The same things happened in World War II. The book "Catch-22" was written by a WW II pilot, and the bureaucracy is the same. It's the same in large organizations like businesses all over the world.
ReplyDeleteWhat's going on with the UK hostages right now is exactly like something in "Catch-22". A mission gets screwed up, so the generals cover it up by giving everyone medals instead of admitting it was a mistake.
Petraeus is the one who can get ROE changed. If the Bush Administration stands in the way, which I doubt it will, then Petraeus needs to go before Congress and say we will lose the war because of the ROE. It would be tough, but that's why he gets the big bucks and has the four stars. But before he can do that, the word needs to get passed up the chain of command to him.
In the Summer of 1993 there was little doubt in Mr Dick Cheney's mind as to what was required, before going to War.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that advocates of U.S. military force to end the bloodshed in Bosnia Iraq have properly considered what would be entailed. Before you commit U.S. forces, there are certain questions you need to be able to answer. You need an objective that you can define in military terms. Our military knows how to liberate a country, destroy a navy, take down an air force; those are militarily achievable objectives. But if you say, "Go in and stop the bloodshed in Bosnia/ Iraq," that's not sufficiently clear to build a mission around. Does that mean you're going to put a U.S. soldier between every Bosnian Serb/ Iraqi Shia," and Bosnian Muslim? // Iraqi Sunni,"
A second requirement is to specify rules of engagement. The soldier or marine in the trenches needs ground rules -- what we call "rules of engagement" -- about how he is to achieve his mission. Whom does he shoot? How much force can he use, and under what circumstances? That's very difficult to define in this nebulous kind of civil war that's been raging in Bosnia / Iraq," . Who's the enemy? And how do you tell the good guys from the bad guys? Is this a three-sided conflict among Serb, Muslim, and Croat, or a two-sided conflict between Muslim and Serb? That's never been very well defined.
You also need to know what constitutes victory. How would you define it? How would you know when you had achieved it? And finally, how do you get out? What's the end game? How do you wrap it all up? And what's the cost in terms of American lives in that involvement? Nobody answered these questions with respect to Bosnia.
Is there any reason to expect that an age-old conflict based on animosities that go back for hundreds of years is going to be ameliorated or ended by the temporary presence of U.S. military force? I don't think so. And for all of those reasons, I was, and still am, very reluctant to see us rely on U.S. forces to solve Bosnia's problems. I am afraid we would have an ill-defined mission, we would take significant casualties, and would get involved without knowing how we were going to get out.
Such growth of what is acceptable Mission Creep, from 1993 to 2007, from the premier GOP spokesman
wu wei,
ReplyDeletere: Haditha
The investigations on the mission in Haditha have concluded. Charges have been brought. The government of the United States in the form of the Marine Corps believes that sufficient evidence exists to bring the Marines to trial. At trial, the government will have to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that the Marines are in fact guilty as charged. Failing that, the Marines will go free.
As to "60 Minutes", I can understand how opinionated people would go there for military advice. When I think "military", I think first of the Cronkite/Rather network. Their track record of objectivity is unparalleled.
Appendix E: Rules of Engagement for U.S. Military Forces in Iraq
ReplyDeleteIssued by U.S. Central Command Combined Forces Land Component Commander
A laminated card with the following text was distributed to all U.S. Army and Marine personnel in Iraq.
CFLCC ROE CARD
On order, enemy military and paramilitary forces are declared hostile and may be attacked subject to the following instructions:
a) Positive identification (PID) is required prior to engagement. PID is a reasonable certainty that the proposed target is a legitimate military target. If no PID, contact your next higher commander for decision
b) Do not engage anyone who has surrendered or is out of battle due to sickness or wounds.
c) Do not target or strike any of the following except in self-defense to protect yourself, your unit, friendly forces, and designated persons or property under your control:
Civilians
Hospitals, mosques, national monuments, and any other historical and cultural sites.
d) Do not fire into civilian populated areas or buildings unless the enemy is using them for military purposes or if necessary for your self-defense. Minimize collateral damage.
e) Do not target enemy infrastructure (public works, commercial communication facilities, dams), Lines of Communication (roads, highways, tunnels, bridges, railways) and Economic Objects (commercial storage facilities, pipelines) unless necessary for self-defense or if ordered by your commander. If you must fire on these objects to engage a hostile force, disable and disrupt but avoid destruction of these objects, if possible.
The use of force, including deadly force, is authorized to protect the following:
Yourself, your unit, and friendly forces
Enemy Prisoners of War
Civilians from crimes that are likely to cause death or serious bodily harm, such as murder or rape
Designated civilians and/or property, such as personnel of the Red Cross/Crescent, UN, and US/UN supported organizations
3. Treat all civilians and their property with respect and dignity. Do not seize civilian property, including vehicles, unless you have the permission of a company level commander and you give a receipt to the property’s owner.
Detain civilians if they interfere with mission accomplishment or if required for self-defense.
CENTCOM General Order No. 1A remains in effect. Looting and the taking of war trophies are prohibited.
REMEMBER
Attack enemy forces and military targets.
Spare civilians and civilian property, if possible.
Conduct yourself with dignity and honor.
Comply with the Law of War. If you see a violation, report it.
These ROE will remain in effect until your commander orders you to transition to post-hostilities ROE.
AS OF 311330Z JAN 03
60 minutes provide the SSgt's persepective. It is his statements that are germane.
ReplyDeleteThe Corps has made it's position clear, the E3s are on trial.
I hope thet are released.
Seems to me they should be.
Seems to the Corps they should be in jail, or at least be put in jeopordy of such a fate.
"Failing that, the Marines will go free."
ReplyDelete---
After having their lives turned inside out and upside down.
...for serving their country.
"The Haditha Marines are at trial, now.
ReplyDeleteJust like Border Patrolmen."
---
BIG DEAL!
...you should expect to have to pay dearly for doing your job.
...unless you partake in the Conventional Corruption.
Wu, the legal risks run by shooters in the current campaigns cannot be overstated.
ReplyDeleteAnd unless they've got some top cover, there is no ready defense against exposure to prosecution.
---
Which means many second guess themselves and DIE.
" That seems to be a sign that the system is fair."
ReplyDelete---
RIGHT:
Unless Time or Kevin Sites decides to F... your life, in which case MCYA goes into effect.
(Massive CYA)
"c) Do not target or strike any of the following except in self-defense to protect yourself, your unit, friendly forces, and designated persons or property under your control:
ReplyDeleteCivilians
Hospitals, mosques, national monuments, and any other historical and cultural sites."
---
Yet Marines DIED rather than defend themselves re: a mosque and sniper.
ROE Creep.
'Rat's, rules are NOT WWII rules, Wu, Catch 22 or not.
ReplyDeleteBut, hey, the guys that are there say the Rules are Fucked,
ReplyDeleteWhat do THEY Know?
(course Yon might be an Al Jiz Operative)
> Wu, the legal risks run by shooters in the current campaigns cannot be overstated.
ReplyDelete> And unless they've got some top cover, there is no ready defense against exposure to prosecution.
> Which means many second guess themselves and DIE.
This is serious, but I don't understand how the Commanders could support the marines and soldiers in the field any more than they are, other than saying that there will never be an investigation at all.
Maybe word of the trials and investigations doesn't leak out, but I am not aware of anysoldiers or marines who are believed to have been wrongly convicted in this Iraq War. I have only heard of a couple of cases that got a lot of publicity like the one with Kevin Sides, and the Marines were found innocent there.
Starting in Afghanistan, it is standard procedure for insurgents to say that every US attack killed civilians. Yet I have not heard of large numbers of troops going through deep investigations, and going to trial.
I believe in our troops, but unless I see proof otherwise, I believe the Marine Commanders, etc. aren't putting their innocent troops in jail.
we wei,
ReplyDeletere: Starting in Afghanistan, it is standard procedure for insurgents to say that every US attack killed civilians. Yet I have not heard of large numbers of troops going through deep investigations, and going to trial.
Bingo!
How's this for a diverse pov; out of 147 comments:
ReplyDeleteDoug - 66
DR - 33
Those two comprise 67% of all comments; now the also rans:
Wu Wei - 19
2164 7
Mat 7
Trish 6
Cutler 4
Allen 3
Trish 1
missed 1
At his point, BC has a far more diverse crowd, with no dominant pov. The EB simply fronts for DR, a blowhard verbal bully who no one would put up with in person.
DR, why do you monopolize someone else's blog instead of creating your own? You seem reasonably web adept; you can embed YouTube videos and run a business website. You reckon anyone would ever visit and tolerate your intolerant, arrogant and cynical pov, if you ran your own blog?