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Friday, January 13, 2012

What Really Happened In Gaffney, South Carolina?

The Left is carrying out a coordinated attack on Mitt Romney’s business career. One sees exactly the same allegations, often phrased identically, whether you look at the Daily Kos, the Associated Press, Slate or Think Progress, or listen to Newt Gingrich or Rick Perry. The centerpiece of the Left’s attack has been Bain’s involvement with two companies that merged to become Holson Burnes Group, Inc. Holson made photo albums, and Burnes made picture frames.

In the late 1980s, Holson was in deep trouble because of competition from cheap imports.
Bain helped to save the company, then encouraged its merger with Burnes:

Partly because of the import problem, the Holson family sold out to Bain Capital in 1986; however, the Holson Company, which was still managed by family members, continued to have problems under the Bain umbrella. To return the organization’s competitive edge, Bain called in a series of consulting teams, including one from Price Waterhouse. Among the members of the Price Waterhouse team was Hoffmeister. Bain asked Hoffmeister to join Holson as head of the company in 1988 to effect a turnaround.

In the same year, 1988, Holson opened a factory in Gaffney, South Carolina, where photo albums were produced. The factory initially employed 100 people and eventually around 150–all brand-new jobs that were created by Holson under Bain’s guidance.

Unfortunately, the new company, Holson Burnes, Holson Burnes,
was losing money
, suffering net losses in both 1991 and 1992. The new management “worked to streamline the company, eliminate overlap, cut production costs, and jettison poorly performing units.” Those efforts succeeded in making Holson Burnes profitable; they also resulted in closing the Gaffney plant in 1992, after four years of operation.

Rick Perry says, referring specifically to Gaffney:

[T]he idea that you get private equity companies to come in and, you know, take companies apart so they can make quick profits and then people lose their jobs, I don’t think that’s what America’s looking for. I hope that’s not what the Republican Party’s about.

Other demagogues like Gingrich and the goofs at Think Progress say essentially the same thing. From the brief narrative above, one can see how ludicrous these charges are. Bain didn’t “come in and take companies apart;” on the contrary, it brought Holson and Burnes together in what became a profitable enterprise for decades. Bain didn’t make “people lose their jobs;” on the contrary, it created all of the jobs in Gaffney that Perry is talking about. It would have been good if the jobs had lasted more than four years, but there was obviously a net benefit of four years’ work to the employees.

Moreover, Bain’s stewardship helped to ensure that Holson Burnes survived and prospered. At the end of 1992, the company had 588 employees. Profitability returned in 1993 and 1994, and in 1996 Bain and the other shareholders of Holson Burnes sold the company to Newell Rubbermaid for $33.5 million. Leftists grumble that Bain and the other shareholders made money on the deal. I hope they did; they deserved to. Newell Rubbermaid’s purchase of Holson Burnes made it “the world’s largest manufacturer of picture frames, framed art and photo albums.” In the years that have gone by since then, Holson Burnes has changed names and owners, but has continued to prosper and has employed thousands of people. It is now known as Burnes Home Accents, LLC, and has its headquarters in Atlanta.

As for Gaffney, South Carolina, the fact that its 150 citizens had jobs at Holson Burnes for only four years was unfortunate, but hardly catastrophic. The county’s top economic official says:

A 1992 decision by a company controlled by an investment firm once led by former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney to close a Gaffney plant and lay off 150 workers did not have a major impact on the local economy, according to Cherokee County’s top economic development official. …

Jim Cook, executive director of the Cherokee County Development Board, said the county was able to lure another manufacturer in the Meadowcreek Industrial Park off Interstate 85 the same year the Holson Burnes Group — the company controlled by Bain — left town.

“It was not devastating to our economy,” Cook said Wednesday. “The overall impact on the economy was typical of any small business going out. Nobody remembers it, so how significant was that? If anything, it helped us start the industrial park.”


If this is really the best that Think Progress, Barack Obama, Newt Gingrich, the Daily Kos, Rick Perry and the rest of the country’s know-nothings can come up with to smear Mitt Romney’s business career, they had better give it up before they make complete fools of themselves.

134 comments:

  1. Too late for facts, the lie has circled the world three times, it is now truth.

    On to the next Newtron Outrage.

    The half-Mexican Mormon vulture capitalist is fluent in French!

    In any language, Newt is an idiot.

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  2. Beached whale impersonator Michael Moore: Older generation who didn’t vote for Obama are “racist”.

    Take a dump on a police car and you're an Main Stream Media hero. Take a whiz on the Taliban and we'll sic Rachel Maddow on ya.

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  3. Rachel's got more balls and moral indignation than I have left.

    ---

    I'd still take the Marines in a mixed martial arts contest, tho.

    With a free piss-off/on for the winners.

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  4. BTW, for those pissed over pissing on dead taleban, the Afghani army one-ups.

    Where's the outrage?

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4cd_1326415154

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  5. PALIN: I don't agree with the attacks on free market capitalism at all. But I don't believe that that's really what is at the heart of Governor Perry's criticism of Romney and his time at Bain. This isn't about a politician making huge profits in the private sector, I think what Governor Perry is getting at is that Governor Romney has claimed to have created 100,000 jobs at Bain and you know, people are wanting to know, is there proof of that claim? And was it U.S. jobs created for United States citizens?

    You know, the 100,000 jobs, and I believe that that's what Governor Perry is getting at is, you know, own up to the claims that are being made. And that's fair. That's not negative campaigning, that's fair to get a candidate to be held accountable to what's being claimed, especially when it comes to job creation because so many of us are so concerned about what's going on, on Main Street, as well as Wall Street.


    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/01/12/palin-calls-bain-capital-criticism-against-romney-fair#ixzz1jLjJGIA8

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  6. Those "Crazed" Afghans, tosh.2, are not US Marines.

    The United States does not seek to find excuses for law breaking by finding equivalency between the US Marine Corps and miscreants within the Afghan military.

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  7. One would think, one should think, that a half-Mexican Mormon vulture capitalist, if we have one around, should be speaking Spanish these days, here in the States, rather than French.

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  8. "The United States does not seek to find excuses for law breaking by finding equivalency between the US Marine Corps and miscreants within the Afghan military."

    "Miscreants"? Are you kidding?

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  9. "One would think, one should think, that a half-Mexican Mormon vulture capitalist, if we have one around, should be speaking Spanish these days, here in the States, rather than French."

    Well, there's the outrage.

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  10. There is more to the Bain story, than Gaffney SC.

    Reuters profiles a Kansas City steel mill that had been operating since 1888 that Bain bought, dumped, and profited from. “Workers were denied the severance pay and health insurance they'd been promised, and their pension benefits were cut by as much as $400 a month. What's more, a federal government insurance agency had to pony up $44 million to bail out the company's underfunded pension plan.

    Nevertheless, Bain profited on the deal, receiving $12 million on its $8 million initial investment and at least $4.5 million in consulting fees…


    Reuters tells the tale

    It is not a "good" candidate for "cut and paste" as the story of private profit and public subsidy by Bain Capital is convoluted, as is often the case when Wall Street vulture capitalists are in the leveraged buy-out picture.

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  11. No, I'm not kidding.

    Miscreants is a great word, especially when judging folks in foreign lands and cultures.

    mis·cre·ant/ˈmiskrēənt/
    Noun:
    A person who behaves badly or in a way that breaks the law.

    Synonyms:
    noun. villain - scoundrel - blackguard - rascal - rogue - knave

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  12. Post here long enough, tosh.2 and your vocabulary will expand.

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  13. Whether that will improve your understanding, an unknowable.

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  14. "A person who behaves badly or in a way that breaks the law."

    What ever caused you to believe these Afghani soldiers are breaking the law?

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  15. North Korea Punishing Lackluster Kim Jong-Il Mourners

    The Daily NK, an online newspaper based in South Korea and run by opponents of the North Korean government, said it had learned from a source in North Hamkyung Province that, “The authorities are handing down at least six months in a labor-training camp to anybody who didn’t participate in the organized gatherings during the mourning period, or who did participate but didn’t cry and didn’t seem genuine.”

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  16. Private profit, public expense...

    "The Bin Way"

    Reporting from Washington—
    As Mitt Romney defends his record running a private equity firm, he frequently points to a fast-growing Indiana steel company, financed in part by Bain Capital, that now employs 6,000 workers.

    What Romney doesn't mention is that Steel Dynamics also received generous tax breaks and other subsidies provided by the state of Indiana and the residents of DeKalb County, where the company's first mill was built.

    The story of Bain and Steel Dynamics illustrates how Romney, during his business career, made avid use of public-private partnerships, something that many conservatives consider to be "corporate welfare." ...

    Yet as he seeks the GOP presidential nomination, he emphasizes government's adverse effects on economic growth.

    "Fundamentally, what happens in America that creates jobs is not government. It has its role. But by and large, it gets in the way of creating jobs," he said during a debate Saturday sponsored by ABC News and Yahoo.

    Bain Capital began looking at investing in the steel start-up in late 1993. At the time, Steel Dynamics was weighing where to locate its first plant, based in part on which region offered the best tax incentives. In June 1994, Bain put $18.2 million into Steel Dynamics, making it the largest domestic equity holder. It sold its stake five years later for $104 million, a return of more than $85 million.

    As Bain made its investment, the state and county pledged $37 million in subsidies and grants for the $385-million plant project. The county also levied a new income tax to finance infrastructure improvements to benefit the steel mill over the heated objections of some county residents.

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  17. They should be crying crocodile tears.

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  18. Another steel company in which Bain invested, GS Industries, went bankrupt in 2001, causing more than 700 workers to lose their jobs, health insurance and a part of their pensions. Before going under, the company paid large dividends to Bain partners and expanded its Kansas City plant with the help of tax subsidies. It also sought a $50-million federal loan guarantee.

    "This is corporate welfare," said Tad DeHaven, a budget analyst with the Washington-based Cato Institute, which encourages free-market economic policies. DeHaven, who is familiar with corporate tax subsidies in Indiana and other states, called the incentives Steel Dynamics received

    "an example of the government stepping into the marketplace, picking winners and losers, providing profits to business owners and leaving taxpayers stuck with the bill."

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  19. I don't know, tosh.2 if those miscreants wee breaking the law, but I do know they were behaving badly.

    Thus, the word miscreant is apropos.

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  20. The word "or" is important, in the definition of miscreant.

    The behavior that qualifies may not, necessarily, be criminal.

    Which is what makes "miscreant" so, shall we say appropriate, in regards those Afghans.

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  21. Ever wonder why you can carry guns in states that you don't need to carry one and in states that you need them, you can't?

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  22. How many Solyndra type enterprises, where private profit came at public expense, have there been in the Bain portfolio?

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  23. January 13, 2012
    The Brotherhood's True Itinerary
    Jeff Treesh

    The Obama administration's recent outreach to the newly elected Muslim Brotherhood government of Egypt takes no account of the group's true nature. "Supreme Leader" Mohammed el-Badi has other plans. At the end of December in his weekly message he let slip the true intentions of the group and their long term goals. Thanks to Coptic Solidarity for the translation:

    "The Brotherhood is getting closer to achieving its greatest goal as envisioned by its founder, Imam Hassan al-Banna. This will be accomplished by establishing a righteous and fair ruling system, with all its institutions and associations, including a government evolving into a rightly guided caliphate and mastership of the world. When the Brotherhood started its advocacy [da'wa], it tried to awaken the nation from its slumber and stagnation, to guide it back to its position and vocation. In his message at the sixth caucus, the Imam [Banna] defined two goals for the Brotherhood: a short term goal, the fruits of which are seen as soon as a person becomes a member of the Brotherhood; and a long term goal that requires utilizing events, waiting, making appropriate preparations and prior designs, and a comprehensive and total reform of all aspects of life. The Imam [Banna] delineated transitional goals and detailed methods to achieve this greatest objective, starting by reforming the individual, followed by building the family, the society, the government, and then a rightly guided caliphate and finally mastership of the world. In this Arab spring, the revolutionary people were determined to achieve particular, obvious goals. They were adamant and uncompromising about goals such as the end of unjust regimes and the ousting of unfair rulers, to rid our countries of all corrupt systems that usurped our resources and thwarted our progress. And today we are very close to achieving a major goal by establishing a righteous and fair ruling system with all its institutions and guiding principles. With the blessings of Shura we are on the path of achieving the goals of the nation and the revolution through a candid and genuine representation of the people in the parliament to start building the institutions of good governance and a rightly guided state."

    Just lovely, he must be a real crowd pleaser. With a Caliphate, and mastership of the world for goals, someone needs to explain the term Taqiyya to Hillary.

    Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com

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  24. "What Romney doesn't mention is that Steel Dynamics also received generous tax breaks and other subsidies"

    What the article doesn't mention is that SD is the 5th-largest producer of carbon steel, employing over 6,000 people. Those people pay taxes, and they buy stuff.

    So... what is wrong with incentives?

    I live across from a billion-dollar stadium that was built partly with taxpayer-funded incentives, we have a multimillion dollar budget surplus this year.

    The ballpark next door? Built with incentives, paid off years early. Now generating revenues.

    Down the street is the top GM plant in the country, which is here because incentives. They pay out about one million dollars every day in wages. Currently undergoing a multi-million dollar expansion, adding over 100 jobs.

    It's investment, not welfare.

    Tell you what. You build a town, I'll build a town.

    You attract industry based on your good looks and terrific vocabulary, I'll offer incentives.

    How long before your town has to bus kids to schools in my town because your town can't keep the lights on?

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  25. Solyndra just gave out bonuses.



    We know too Ron Paul made over a million dollars on a bunch of racist, anti-semitic, conspiracy mongering "news letters."


    Fuck them all.

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  26. "I don't know, tosh.2 if those miscreants wee breaking the law, but I do know they were behaving badly."

    In your eyes they were, others may see them as heroes.

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  27. There's the debate, tosh.2.

    What the proper place of government in business is.

    Mr Romney is for public subsidies for businesses he owns a piece, against public subsidies for those he does not.

    His position on the Government Motors bailouts, illustrative on the point.

    He was against that, but in favor of subsidies/bailouts for GS Technologies.

    Mr Romney supports the Federals picking winners and losers, in the business whirled. A typical Federal Socialist, to be sure.
    But not a "conservative", at all.

    That's the rub, for so many in the Republican Party. The reason so many will stay home, in November, if he is the GOP nominee.

    Mr Perry may not count for much, in New Hampshire, but he is a real Texican. Capable of reading that electorate, quite well.

    Mrs Palin, another example of what many describe here as the "Real America".

    Folks that will not toe the Party line.

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  28. I see they've interviewed two of the pisser Marines, not releasing names.

    I'll wager that these guys are from the Eastern seaboard, most likely Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Just a hunch.

    From taleban HQ:

    "A Taliban spokesman called the video “barbaric.”

    As opposed to...

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  29. If you wish to describe those Afghans as heroes. tosh.2, you are welcome to.

    Have at it, if that is your believe.

    I'll describe them as miscreants, Afghans behaving badly, and stand by that.

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  30. I guess they could also, correctly, be described as Muslims behaving badly.

    Defend them, if you wish.

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  31. Sure, conservatives will skip the vote because Romney isn't conservative enough - they'd rather have a quasi-Marxist instead. Makes sense.

    I voted for Perry a few times. He's not particularly conservative.

    I voted for Bush four times, he's not particularly conservative.

    Maybe conservatives are a little more pragmatic that you think.

    That being said, Obama will win, for several reasons. Republican's will take Congress, and Obama will spend the next 4 years going rogue, as only the nation's top Constitutional scholar can do.

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  32. "If you wish to describe those Afghans as heroes. tosh.2, you are welcome to."

    Thanks for granting me that opportunity, but what could you possibly see in what I've written that would lead you to believe I would describe them as heroes?

    Your vocabulary is top-rate, reading comprehension could use a little work.

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  33. It seems calling the Iranian "bluff" on the Straits could yield the opposite of a "small footprint":

    "The administration has warned Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, that closing the Strait of Hormuz is a “red line” that would provoke a response, officials said. "

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  34. I read just fine, tosh.2.

    When you wrote ...

    ... others may see them as heroes.

    Here I thought you were speaking for yourself and your compatriots, not projecting for some other, as yet unknown, "others".

    Mea culpa.

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  35. OK, I'm so upset at this I am bringing it forward from the previous post:

    How about those crazy Maldivites? Those bastards, all 340,000 of them, are living off the coast of India. They gained their independence from the U.K. in 1965, they didnt deserve it and I think they should give it back.

    We should nuke the island and water board any survivors to find out what they really know.

    Who's with me?

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  36. They (We) are not going to have to worry about it, because the world needs Iran's oil, desperately. It Will be bought.

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  37. So, rufus, do you think the Administration and Congress will cave to Iranian demands?

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  38. "Could" being the operative word, ash.

    The roulette wheel is still spinning.

    Of the four options.

    A. Do nothing ...
    B. Sanctions and Sabotage ...
    C. "Limited" military strikes ...
    D. Invasion and Occupation ...

    A & B are certainly preferable to C & D.

    It does not appear that "A" is an option that is really "On the Table".

    Leaving "B" and the real risks involved in that course of action as the "best" option "On the Table".

    For better or worse.

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  39. .

    Geez, Gag, when you put it that way it kind of makes sense.

    .

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  40. I have absolutely no idea as to what will happen, Ash - other than I'm sure China, Japan, Italy, Greece, India, and others will continue to buy Iranian oil.

    The timing for that particular power play couldn't be worse.

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  41. Q, you know me.....I am tired of reading about Jew vs Jew hater.

    My Korea request lasted about 15 minutes.

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  42. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  43. Rufus II said...
    I have absolutely no idea as to what will happen, Ash - other than I'm sure China, Japan, Italy, Greece, India, and others will continue to buy Iranian oil



    Well, they will only continue to buy Iranian oil if (a) they choose not to do business with US financial institutions and/or (b)The administration grants them an exemption from the newly passed law forbidding those doing business with the Iranian central bank (which you do to buy Iranian oil) from doing business with US financial institutions.

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  44. The UK has it's own nukes, gag.

    If the Brits feel as if they've been "had" well, they can chart their own course.

    There are those in India that think the Maldives should be incorporated into that country with the 3rd largest of Muslim populations, in all the whirled.

    India should offer the Maldives statehood within our Union, says M P Anil Kumar.


    Or, the Indians could nuke the Maldives, themselves.

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  45. .

    From the NYT,

    "Administration officials and Iran analysts said they continued to believe that Iran’s threats to close the strait, coming amid deep frictions over Iran’s nuclear program and possible sanctions, were bluster and an attempt to drive up the price of oil. Blocking the route for the vast majority of Iran’s petroleum exports — and for its food and consumer imports — would amount to economic suicide..."



    This is what our government believes and I think rightly so. However, if Iran was foolish enough to attempt to close the Straits then the US has stated

    "Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said this past weekend that the United States would “take action and reopen the strait,” which could be accomplished only by military means, including minesweepers, warship escorts and potentially airstrikes. Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta told troops in Texas on Thursday that the United States would not tolerate Iran’s closing of the strait...

    Again, I think it would be the right thing to do.

    If Iran attempts closing the Strait, while I could still not endorse his plan to bomb a black rock, I would have to admit WiO's contention that the Iranian leadership are insane has more credibility.

    .

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  46. The law is not that cut and dried, ash.

    (Reuters) - Washington's latest sanctions on Iran target Tehran's ability to sell crude oil but they give U.S. President Barack Obama wide latitude to pull his punches and avoid imposing penalties.

    ... a description of the sanctions Obama signed into law on December 31, the timelines to carry them out, the ways Obama can avoid imposing them and the ambiguities in the law that may be interpreted by his administration.

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  47. Well, Quirk, if the sanctions are effective enough then Iran may feel 'existentially threatened' in which case 'by any means necessary' from their POV would not be "insane".

    The question remains, though, as to whether military means short of occupation would be enough to keep the Straits open. Even occupation would not make safe passage 100% guaranteed and hence a too large a risk of insurers. The risk being from water borne IED equivalents deployed by individuals or small groups utilizing small boats and shoulder launced weapons.

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  48. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  49. .


    My Korea request lasted about 15 minutes.


    That represents a sad day in the history of this blog, Gag.

    If you came around more often maybe you could attain the status of bartender and be able to put up your own posts; that is, if you have the requisite computer skills (some of us don't).

    .

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  50. The President and his Team, ash, have to balance on the beam.

    His perceived natural abilities, at achieving balance, perhaps the reason he received that Peace Prize.

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  51. I prefer to lurk. Dropping in on ocasion for a cold one with a smart assed remark is more to my liking.

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  52. Maybe after he starts a war in Iran with 300,000 boots on the ground the Nobel Prize committee will reconsider.

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  53. Good article Rat, thanks. Yes, he does have some lattitude. If one were to apply the sanctions firmly Iran could very well feel existentially threatened. If they are not applied firmly the Administration has some paper work to do.

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  54. No one wanted to defend the Jim Crow culture of North Korea, gag.

    The topic died, when no one would tell us that the family Kim represented the paragon of civilization.

    Even though the NorKs had attacked a US Navy ship on the open sea on January 23, 1968 ....

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  55. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  56. If you came around more often maybe you could attain the status of bartender and be able to put up your own posts; that is, if you have the requisite computer skills (some of us don't).




    Some of us that that have a PRO-Israel pov are excluded from being bartenders.

    Talk about a "Jim Crow" blog.

    Reminds me of those real estate exclusionary covenants, "This property shall never be sold to Jews"

    now if you hate Israel? You are sure to get a spot at the top...

    Life aint fair and that's is a fact.

    Cant change the haters..

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  57. A valid one Quirk.

    A possible course of action for Iran might be that they allow a small group to attack a ship as an alternative to a closure.

    Also in Iranian calculations would be how much oil they can sell through their pipelines ect. I do think they realize the gravity of closing the Straits but they are also under tremendous pressure and suffering because of it. If the Administration should exercise the Sanctions stipulated under that new law thngs could get really really bad in Iran. Bad enough that they (they being the current power structure) could feel existentially threatened.

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  58. Well, the governments of the world can engage in all the hoopla, and distraction they wish, but two things won't change. If Iran wants nukes, Iran will have nukes, and the world will buy oil from Iran.

    Everything else is just political posturing.

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  59. After they close the Straight, they inflict an enormous amount of damage but then their wad is shot. They have alienated not only most of the world but also their current customers, China, India, etc. Eventually, the Straight will be opened and Iran will be more isolated than ever.

    Just my opinion.




    So what?

    Remember the '80s tanker war?

    Remember the Iran/Iraq war?

    It's amazing how people in the west place their thoughts of outcome of what is reasonable or not on those that come from a completely different world/life view...

    If Iran could inflict some hugh measure of pain on the west? Even at a great cost? that is victory.

    Perfect example is Hezbollah and israel war of 2006.

    Hezbollah got their heads handed to them by any rational measure. But you know the critics are all excited that hezbollah got off a couple of rockets that hit a shit and the killed a couple dozen israels and a tank.

    Meanwhile complete sections of southern lebanon were leveled. But the world now says Hezbollah won.


    The same failed logic was with hamas after operation cast lead.

    Because hamas survived they won.

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  60. Rufus II said...
    Well, the governments of the world can engage in all the hoopla, and distraction they wish, but two things won't change. If Iran wants nukes, Iran will have nukes, and the world will buy oil from Iran.

    Everything else is just political posturing.


    Almost correct.

    Iran may get nukes but Iran will not survive.

    As for oil? I dont really care what group controls the iranian oil fields.

    Most likely it will be the independent Kurds or the Baluchis...

    The oil will make it to the market.

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  61. Might be interesting when Iran's secret plutonium and uranium plants all blow up in the middle of the night..

    I personally will laugh....

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  62. Meanwhile complete sections of southern lebanon were leveled. But the world now says Hezbollah won.

    Who cares what the world says. Rubble don't make trouble.

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  63. Is it possible for US pilots to pee on Iran while doing their bombing runs?

    reminds me of Patton and the Rhine.

    http://www.skylighters.org/patton/index3.html

    Patton stops in the middle of a pontoon bridge over the Rhine River near Oppehneim to urinate on March 24, 1945. Said Patton, "I drove to the Rhine River and went across on the pontoon bridge. I stopped in the middle to take a piss and then picked up some dirt on the far side in emulation of William the Conqueror." Later, he sent the following communique to Eisenhower: "Dear SHAEF, I have just pissed into the Rhine River. For God's sake, send some gasoline." This photo is the edited version (Patton's urine stream has been eliminated by an Army censor).

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  64. Teresita said...
    Meanwhile complete sections of southern lebanon were leveled. But the world now says Hezbollah won.

    Who cares what the world says. Rubble don't make trouble.


    Who cares what any israel hater says.... Including you...

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  65. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  66. yeppers, Iran appears to be suffering.

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  67. .

    It's amazing how people in the west place their thoughts of outcome of what is reasonable or not on those that come from a completely different world/life view...

    Luckily, we have you to provide the balance, WiO, that different worldview.


    .

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  68. Quirk said...
    .

    It's amazing how people in the west place their thoughts of outcome of what is reasonable or not on those that come from a completely different world/life view...

    Luckily, we have you to provide the balance, WiO, that different worldview.




    More than you could possibly understand old man...

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  69. As to the Israeli incursion into Lebanon ...

    The partial report by a government-appointed committee probing the Second Lebanon War on Monday accused Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of "severe failure" in exercising judgment, responsibility and caution during the outset of the war.

    The report, officially released at a 5 P.M. press conference in Jerusalem on Monday, says Olmert acted hastily in leading the country to war last July 12, without having a comprehensive plan.

    The prime minister, the report said, "bears supreme and comprehensive responsibility for the decisions of 'his' government and the operations of the army."
    ...
    Olmert was also censured for failing to "adapt his plans once it became clear that the assumptions and expectations of Israel's actions were not realistic and were not materializing."

    "All of these," the report said, "add up to a serious failure in exercising judgment, responsibility and prudence."
    ...
    According to the report, "the government did not consider the whole range of options, including that of continuing the policy of 'containment', or combining political and diplomatic moves with military strikes below the 'escalation level', or military preparations without immediate military action - ..."


    The failure of the Israeli Government, was in rushing to war.
    According to the Israeli.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Ash said...
    yeppers, Iran appears to be suffering.



    What happens when you wound a lion?

    Does the lion care who or what you are?

    What kind of weapon you have?

    Does the lion think I guess those folks really showed me...

    The Iranians/Persians have been fighting and dying longer by a factor of 10 then the USA has existed.

    Do you really think we scare them with sanctions?

    man you folks are on some bad ass weed....

    you're just tripping on your own swag....

    but get your panties in a wad about some pissing marines...

    lol

    too fuckin funny...

    reminds me of russians after ww2 being told that having a western lifestyle was the be all and all...

    now these were people that lived thru stalin...

    the west doesnt have a CLUE....

    ReplyDelete
  71. Decisions made by "Chicken Hawks" that do not understand the ramifications of military actions.

    Well illustrated, in the Israeli experience in Lebanon.

    Lessons that some refuse to learn.

    ReplyDelete
  72. desert rat said...
    As to the Israeli incursion into Lebanon ...

    The partial report by a government-appointed committee probing the Second Lebanon War on Monday accused Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of "severe failure" in exercising judgment, responsibility and caution during the outset of the war.


    Yo ratboy...

    You dont understand shit..

    By why try to explain to you?

    You are incapable of learning or understanding.

    Please embrace the Israeli failure.

    What a maroon....

    Coconut that it...

    Tired of calling you retarded, not fair to the people how have actual learning disabilities.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Rubble don't make trouble.

    Hope you saw my post about carpet in south Afghanistan, Miss T.

    Granted, they didn't know what they were doing, for sure, but, for sure, the village is no longer there.

    ReplyDelete
  74. carpet bombing, of course

    ReplyDelete
  75. If it was not worth bombing Tora Bora flat, to kill Osama, why should we bomb entire regions, to secure the ruins for the family Karzai?

    ReplyDelete
  76. Are you going to be my tour guide?

    ReplyDelete
  77. You really need one?

    Want to fly or drive?

    ReplyDelete
  78. Of course I need a guide. I get lost leaving my own neighborhood. My flight to AZ is probably not going to be non stop. I'm having anxiety just thinking about getting off one plane and getting on another.


    I prefer driving.

    ReplyDelete
  79. From Phoenix it's a two day drive.
    Stopping the first night in Guaymas/Hermosillo, which includes the US style resorts in San Carlos, Sonora.

    From there take Hwy 15 south another day. Most all of the trip, vistas supreme. Mountains and sea.

    ReplyDelete
  80. I will be traveling from Tucson.

    ReplyDelete
  81. That makes it a shorter day to Guaymas.

    Cross the border at Nogales, take the main highway, Hwy 15, south to Hermosillo, then on to Guaymas. That road is very secure, safer than I-17 north of Camp Verde.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Guess that's a no on the tour guide gig.

    ReplyDelete
  83. TACOMA, Wash. -- A strange quirk in the law is allowing an accused child rapist to watch child pornography inside the Pierce County Jail.

    Marc Gilbert is accused of sexually assaulting young boys and videotaping the abuse.

    Under the law, defense attorneys are allowed to review material tied to the case. And because Gilbert has chosen to act as his own attorney, he has had unlimited access to the pornographic footage.


    That's like busting someone for possession of crack cocaine, them letting him have the evidence to "review" in his cell.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Not necessarily, just want us both to understand the scope of the trip we're talking about.

    I've got the time.

    ReplyDelete
  85. I do not fly commercial, unless there is a pressing reason to get across the country quickly..

    ReplyDelete
  86. Granted, they didn't know what they were doing, for sure, but, for sure, the village is no longer there.

    What a step down, from V-2 factories on the Oder to villages in the mountains of Asscrackistan.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Van der Slut gets 28 years in a Peruvian prison.

    May only serve 8 or 9 years.

    But then, the victim's father is a popular fella, in Peru.
    Wonder if they will or have put him in the "General Population"?

    ReplyDelete
  88. He may get sent to the US first. I think Alabama wants a word with him.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Yo, Doug, that headline article • did you write it? No attribution
    with it makes it look like plagerism.

    ReplyDelete
  90. I ain't no Sam, and this is kind of long, but here goes.......

    One day a man (named Willie) decided to retire...

    He booked himself on a Caribbean
    cruise and proceeded to have the
    time of his life, that is, until the ship sank.

    He soon found himself on an island with no other people, no supplies, nothing, only bananas and coconuts.

    After about four months, he is lying on the beach one day
    when the most gorgeous woman he has ever seen rows up to the shore.

    In disbelief, he asks, "Where did you come from? How did you get here?"

    She replies,"I rowed over from the other side of the island where I landed when my cruise ship sank."

    "Amazing," he notes."You were really lucky to have a row boat wash up with you."

    "Oh, this thing?" explains the woman. "I made the boat out
    of some raw material I found
    on the island. The oars were whittled from gum tree branches. I wove the bottom from palm tree branches, and the sides and stern came from a Eucalyptus tree."

    "But, where did you get the tools?"

    "Oh, that was no problem,"
    replied the woman. "On the south side of the island, a very unusual stratum of alluvial rock is posed.
    I found that if I fired it to a certain temperature in my kiln,
    it melted into ductile iron and I used that to make tools and used the tools to make the hardware."

    The guy is stunned.

    "Let's row over to my place,"
    she says "and I'll give you a tour." so, after a short time of rowing, she soon docks the boat at a small wharf. As the man looks to shore, he nearly falls off the boat. Before him is a long stone walk leading to a cabin and
    tree house.

    While the woman ties up the rowboat with an expertly woven hemp rope, the man can only stare ahead, dumb struck. As they walk into the house, she says casually, "It's not much, ut I call it home. Please sit down."

    "Would you like a drink?"

    "No! No thank you," the man blurts out, still dazed. "I can't take another drop of coconut juice."

    "Oh it's not coconut juice," winks the woman. "I have a still. How would you like a Tropical Spritz?"

    Trying to hide his continued amazement, the man accepts, and they sit down on her couch to talk. After they exchange their individual survival stories, the woman announces, "I'm going to slip into something more comfortable. Would you like to take a shower and shave? There's a razor in the bathroom cabinet upstairs."

    No longer questioning anything,
    the man goes upstairs into the bathroom. There, in the cabinet is a razor made from a piece of tortoise bone. Two shells honed to a hollow ground edge are fastened on to its end inside a swivel mechanism.

    "This woman is amazing," he muses. "What's next?"

    When he returns, she greets him wearing nothing but some small flowers on tiny vines, each strategically positioned, she smelled faintly of gardenias. She then beckons for him to sit down next to her.

    "Tell me," she begins suggestively, slithering closer to him, "We've both been out here for many months. You must have been lonely. When was the last time you played around? She stares into his eyes.He can't believe what he's hearing.
    "You mean..." he swallows
    excitedly as tears
    start to form
    in his eyes, !
    !
    !
    !
    !


    "You've built a Golf Course?"








    =

    ReplyDelete
  91. :)

    heh


    ......

    I hear from my daughter, she is taking a course on pirates, the history of, from the ancient world to modern day Somalia, with an emphasis on the Caribbean.

    And, I'm ultimately paying for this.
    It better be interesting.

    Henry Morgan comes to mind

    ReplyDelete
  92. Because the sack of Panama violated the 1670 peace treaty between England and Spain, Morgan was arrested and conducted to the Kingdom of England in 1672. He proved he had no knowledge of the treaty. Instead of punishment, Morgan was knighted in 1674 before returning to Jamaica the following year to take up the post of Lieutenant Governor.[citation needed]

    By 1681, then-acting governor Morgan had fallen out of favour with King Charles II, who was intent on weakening the semi-autonomous Jamaican Council, and was replaced by long-time political rival Thomas Lynch. He gained considerable weight and a reputation for rowdy drunkenness.



    He looks like Falstaff in some of the old depictions.
    :)

    ReplyDelete
  93. .

    The Iranians/Persians have been fighting and dying longer by a factor of 10 then the USA has existed.

    Do you really think we scare them with sanctions?

    man you folks are on some bad ass weed....



    I was just trying to jerk your chain with my previous post, Wio; but I am serious with this one. You piss and moan about us taking this thing too lightly, not understanding the ME. The whole question is about preventing Iran from getting the bomb. The limited timeframe everyone worries about for them getting the bomb sets a time limit for any actions to work.

    What exactly would you suggest the administration do that it is not doing right now?

    Doing a little fuminatin is fun stuff but at some point you have to offer up something practical that would "actually" deter Iran from getting the bomb.

    You offered up a long list the other day. Do you think anything on that list would do more, within the time frame needed, than the sanctions and planned embargo Obama is talking about?

    .

    ReplyDelete
  94. .

    Long but worth the wait, Gag.

    :)

    .

    ReplyDelete
  95. Toshtu,

    I am liking you more and more.

    There are a couple people on this site who use their own little languages. Don't get me wrong; I care less until they try using them on me.

    Later!

    ReplyDelete
  96. Allen -

    I've been lurking on this site since it was birthed post-Belmont, always interesting.

    Folks used to get along a lot better back in the old days, maybe what they say about familiarity is true?

    ReplyDelete
  97. What exactly would you suggest the administration do that it is not doing right now?

    WiO recommends nuking the Kaaba. That will make the Iranians give up their nuclear program.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Double the pleasure, double the fun?

    http://tinyurl.com/6ny8tq7

    ReplyDelete
  99. Teresita said...
    What exactly would you suggest the administration do that it is not doing right now?

    WiO recommends nuking the Kaaba. That will make the Iranians give up their nuclear program.


    That will cause moslems world wide to feel that allah is not supporting them.

    Why Ms T do you misdirect, distort and lie?

    Is that your true nature?

    I have never said what you say I have said.

    You are a very evil person. I suggest you use the next few hours to reflect at your black hearted soul and why you wish to always lie and stir up shit?

    I have explained my position numerous times and you know what I have said.

    Please do not misrepresent my words, it just makes you look cheap.

    ReplyDelete
  100. That will cause moslems world wide to feel that allah is not supporting them.

    Who cares what Muslims feel? We're looking for practical ways to stop Iran's nuclear program here.

    ReplyDelete
  101. DR

    I've got the time.


    I've only got a week.


    I'll be a hop, skip, and a jump away from Davis-Monthan AFB. I'll make sure to wear my fedora so you can spot me in any crowded shopping mall or sand storm that may occur during my stay.

    ReplyDelete
  102. We could encourage the Israelis to just go ahead and nuke them. That might work.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Now, boobie, all we have to do is track back and find out who the Vulture Capitalists were that cashed out of those Private Companies when they went on the Public Subsidy program.

    Who got the money?

    We all know who spent it.

    Who approved it, only a third of the story. Who gained by it, that is the "real" story.

    ReplyDelete
  104. Who were the Cronies in these cases of DC Capitalism?

    ReplyDelete
  105. crapper, here's your chance to take Melody down to C. Am and show her the old killing fields. Don't let the chance slip away!

    ReplyDelete
  106. Tombstone, Nogales, Kitt Peak Observatory some of the Tucson area highlights.

    ReplyDelete
  107. There is a real big hole, down towards Bisbee. Some folks like to see it. Never could understand why.

    Though the architecture in Bisbee is interestingly out of place.
    Its become kind of a artist colony.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Does the Emir "really" have a mercenary force, used in Libya, that is ready to deploy to Syria from bases in Turkey?

    Qatar builds Sunni intervention force of Libyan, Iraqi terrorists against Assad

    Are international Sunni terrorists targeting the Alawai regime of Bashar Assad in Damascus?

    Are the claims of Bashar Assad, that his regime is being targeted by foreign terrorists, accurate as Debka reports?

    Is Debka a credible source?

    ReplyDelete
  109. Qatar builds Sunni intervention force of Libyan, Iraqi terrorists against Assad

    More camel-fucker on camel-fucker violence.

    ReplyDelete
  110. While South Carolina Democratic Party Chair Dick Harpootlian was a guest on Al Sharpton’s “Politics Nation,” he said that the GOP candidates should condemn the upcoming Republican debate, scheduled for Martin Luther King, Jr. Day (MLK Day), because it’s “racially insensitive.”

    Basically, Republicans should stay indoors on MLK day.

    ReplyDelete
  111. So, it is now legally binding

    Fox News

    Judge rejects GOP candidates' request to be added to Virginia ballot


    It's Doctor Paul vs Mitt Romney
    Head to head.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Teresita said...
    That will cause moslems world wide to feel that allah is not supporting them.

    Who cares what Muslims feel? We're looking for practical ways to stop Iran's nuclear program here.




    Different question

    want to stop the iranians?

    revolution, most Iranians are not Iranian.

    support an a free kurdistan

    support sanctions and do not allow signing statements and delays of sanctions.

    make a world wide statement that if you do any business with iran you cannot do business with the USA. Make China choose.

    Grow a pair.

    respond to iranian ied's with harsh military action

    respond to iranian terrorist support of hezbollah and syria with harsh military strikes.

    destroy their gasoline refinery

    iran has been at war with us for decades killing our servicemen without punishment.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Toshtu, welcome to the blog. I knocked off one of your comments because I did not like how it would shown up in the search engines. Nothing personal.

    ReplyDelete
  114. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  115. The good news that I've been reading today is that some of the deep economic thinkers in our society believe unemployment rate will be back up over 9% come election time. This should toast Obama, unless he gets us into a war and the rally round the President effect pushes him over the top.

    A little more short term pain for a greater long term gain is usually a good thing. Works in farming.

    ReplyDelete
  116. respond to iranian terrorist support of hezbollah and syria with harsh military strikes.

    I said rubble don't make trouble, and you said "Who cares what any israel hater says.... Including you..." so I thought military action was off the table.

    ReplyDelete
  117. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Even Bibi came to admit, as reported in the NYTimes, that Mr Obama and the US are on the "right" track.

    Where is "o" going and wiggle off to, now?


    “For the first time, I see Iran wobble,” Mr. Netanyahu told The Australian newspaper in an interview in Jerusalem, referring to
    “the sanctions that have been adopted and especially under the threat of strong sanctions on their central bank.”


    Bibi has come to see and agree with me on the long held stance, that strong sanctions would have a "real" impact with the leadership in Iran.

    The strong sanctions do not even have to implemented, and Bibi is impressed with the success of the mere threat of implementation.

    ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  119. Tom Brady vs. Tim Tebow: Clash of biblical proportions
    By John Zaremba
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 - Updated 1 day ago
    EmailE-mail PrintablePrint Comments(64) Comments LargerSmallerText size Bookmark and Share Share

    When God-fearing Tim Tebow and Golden Boy Tom Brady [stats] square off in what experts predict will be a ratings-busting rematch of December’s Patriots [team stats] beatdown of the Broncos, we’ll see more than Tebow’s scrambling leather helmet-era quarterback vs. Brady’s disciplined, omniscient power passing.

    We’re talking a matchup between two sports deities that could dwarf the whopping 42 million who watched the Broncos’ heart-stopping overtime win over bad-boy Ben Roethlisberger and the Steelers Sunday night.

    “It’s Jesus vs. the Prophet,” said Henry Schafer of the celebrity-pollster firm Marketing Evaluations, referring to Brady’s Dec. 18 postgame prophecy that the two would meet again. “Given Brady’s success and Tebow’s attraction right now, coming from a lot of different angles, I would not be surprised if this becomes the highest-ever rated playoff game.”

    Tom and Tim rank among the most popular, polarizing and appealing players in the game. Marketing Evaluations’ Q rating, which measures the public’s awareness and opinion of celebrities, lists Tebow as the NFL’s sixth-most-appealing player, and Brady as the 13th.

    “Two out of three Americans age 6 years and older knew who Tom Brady was, and two out of five knew who Tim Tebow was,” Schafer said. “That’s crazy. That’s telling me (Tebow) is more of a national personality than anybody thought, even before the season started.”

    What’s more, that measure was taken in September, before backup QB Tebow stepped up and turned his 1-4 Broncos into the NFL’s 8-8 comeback kids, very publicly professing love for Christ and admiration of his teammates the whole way through. Just yesterday, ESPN Sports ran a poll showing Tebow is American’s favorite active pro athlete, ahead of Brady in fifth place.

    Indeed, a December report from Dallas-based The Marketing Arm says Tebow has just a shade less influence than Lady Gaga, and more than Tom Hanks. And he’s head-and-shoulders above Brady, who has about as much pull as Bruce Willis and Robert Downey Jr.

    “You have two interesting guys here,” said Darin David, a Marketing Arm account director. “As great as Brady has been — there’s probably been nobody better — there’s part of the country where they’ve seen him as a pretty boy.

    “What Tebow gained last week was he was able to pull off what a lot of people didn’t think was possible. Here’s another opportunity for him.”

    ReplyDelete
  120. "Toshtu, welcome to the blog. I knocked off one of your comments because I did not like how it would shown up in the search engines. Nothing personal"

    Thanks for the welcome, and no more camel pron, I promise.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Iranians chant death to America at funeral and are supporting the Assad regime killing civilians.

    No wonder all the Sunni states are arming up and the Obama admin. continues to augment military forces in the area.

    And the sky crows continue to augment their capabilities

    ReplyDelete
  122. .

    Different question

    want to stop the iranians?



    That was not the question. The question was "What do you say we should do over and above the escalating sanctions proposed by Obama so that within the time it takes the Iranians to get the bomb we prevent them from getting it."

    I think the worst case scenario I've heard is between one and three years. If I'm wrong, someone can correct me.

    You've given a list. Obviously, some of them wouldn't help within the timeframe (Kurdistan), others are a little Pollyannish (revolution). With others you are just saying do more of the same with the sanctions only harder and faster. With the last couple you are basically saying go to war.

    Well that clearly tells us where you stand, you and Bob. Hard to say what will happen at this time but you guys should probably be hoping Iran closes the Strait of Hormuz.

    .

    ReplyDelete
  123. obama has delayed the sanctions for 6 months and signed a signing statement that demands exemptions.

    bush also dragged his feet at real biting sanctions.

    we are still doing business as usual with those supporting iran.

    we are not serious

    real sanctions could work but we are running out of time.

    once iran crosses the final red line?

    pandora's box will be opened and no one can predict how it will end, except it will end badly.

    ReplyDelete
  124. .

    WiO forgive me if I require a little clarification. Was your previous post where you indicated we should be destroy their refinery and deliver harsh military strikes meant to stop them from getting the bomb or where they for some other purpose independent of the bomb?

    Now you say sanctions can work but you are dissatisfied with how they are being applied.

    I want to get it straight because you are constantly saying we don't get it and I want to make sure what it is we don't get.

    .

    ReplyDelete
  125. .

    Obama seeks more power to merge agencies, streamline government


    Sometimes Elections Are A Good Thing


    .

    ReplyDelete
  126. That is a scary list, those 10 reasons why America is no longer the land of the free.

    Quirk, I don't have a clue as to what to do about Iran. I was for bombing earlier on. Now, I don't know.

    How can anyone know? We peasants aren't privy to the intelligence reports, which are probably wrong anyways.

    I think it might be a good time to make some investments based on the idea the world might go topsy-turvy, if one could figure out what those investments would be.

    ReplyDelete
  127. You can thank George Bush for that list. You can vote for Ron Paul to help turn it back.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Don’t put too much faith and expectation in the intelligence reports. They don’t know as much as you think.

    ReplyDelete