To oversimplify: Peter Beinart thought the deal was more good than bad, David Frum thought it was nearly all bad, and Jeffrey Goldberg could see merits on both sides but thought on balance that the deal might be the best of flawed alternatives.
In case you’ve been wondering what the debate would have been like with four participants, wonder no more. And if you’re wondering why I care, given that the Mideast is not my normal beat, here’s why:
— There’s a backward-looking reason: I’ve been interested in Iran since I first visited in the 1970s. Also, I worked for a president whose final two years were wrapped up with, and ultimately destroyed by, the effects of the Iranian Revolution; who believed deeply in nuclear non-proliferation; and who probably would have been reelected if not for his failed “Desert One” mission to rescue American hostages in Iran—some of whom I knew.
To oversimplify my hypothetical fourth-man argument: If I were in the debate I would have agreed with Peter Beinart, completely disagreed with David Frum, and agreed most heartily with the parts of Jeffrey Goldberg’s writing in which he was agreeing with Beinart.
I’d go further. On reflection, I think this is a far better deal than most rational observers thought obtainable—especially considering that “our side’s” negotiators included not simply the U.S. and its normal Western allies but Russia and China as well. I also think that the agreement does more to avert a nuclear-armed Iran than any real-world (not tough-talk fantasy-world) alternative would do.
I know this won’t be the case, but in the upcoming congressional debate I think the burden of proof should be on the opponents to explain what arrangements, in the real world, would have done more to advance American interests and delay or deter the prospect of Iran getting the bomb.
Let’s consider, briefly, facts and judgments.
* * *
Facts: There is one simple-seeming factual point that President Obama emphasized in his thoroughgoing defense of the Iran deal at his news conferencea few days ago, and that (my one-time professor) Graham Allison has examined in even more thoroughgoing fashion here, here, here, and here. That point is: If you don’t like this deal, what’s your better idea?Most of the “Oh, we should have been tougher—that would have done the trick!” rhetoric, including David Frum’s in this Atlantic exchange, abstracts away from several realities. Of these, the most important is that the U.S. can’t get its way just because Tom Cotton, Lindsey Graham, Bill Kristol, or Ted Cruz thinks it should (as Peter Beinart argued here). Iran is smaller, weaker, and poorer than the United States. But that doesn’t mean it will just accede—a lesson the United States might have learned from its dealings with Vietnam, Cuba, and various Middle Eastern states over the years. Negotiations are what both sides agree to, not what tough guys on one side think that side should demand.
Moreover, Russia and China, while somewhat poor in per-capita terms, are very far from small and weak. The most amazing part of U.S. debate on this deal is how rarely anyone notices that Vladimir Putin’s Russia and Xi Jinping’s China, the opposite of strategic allies of the United States right now, have been shoulder to shoulder with the Western negotiating team so far. Is the thought that because an American hardliner, or for that matter one from Israel, tells them they’re too lily-livered, they’ll suddenly snap to? That’s an argument you might make on a talk show or in an op-ed, but not if you’ve dealt with either country.
For more on the facts, apart from Graham Allison’s careful parsing of the deal, I direct you to the roundtable of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists. (E.g. from Siegfried Hecker, former director of Los Alamos Labs: “Much hard work lies ahead to make it a historic opportunity. Even so, the Iran nuclear deal was hard-won and is better than any other reasonably achievable alternative.” Or from Sharon Squassoni, director of the Proliferation Prevention Program at CSIS: “The Vienna agreement with Iran ... is a lumbering, 159-page tome of historic dimensions. ... Still, the level of detail, nuance, and overlapping obligations is impressive. Some of the details are astonishing.”—which she means in a good way. Or from Kingston Reif, of the Arms Control Association: “Many observers, including this author, doubted whether such an agreement could be reached. While a final judgment on the deal must await its implementation, what has been achieved to date is remarkable and historic.”) Or consider this analysis from the Molad institute about why the deal is more advantageous for Israel than any real-world alternative. Or this from Steven Metz.
Maybe these people are wrong. But if so, let’s hear some details of a better approach. Let’s hear a realistic alternative. Rather than, “Oh, that Obama is so weak. He just should have been strong.”
* * *
Judgment: Of course, provable facts take us only so far into the future. Judgment about appropriate risks and rewards inevitably comes into play. And here I argue: The historical balance weighs very heavily against the judgment of those opposing the deal. Those who have lined up against similar deals, in the past, have usually been wrong. This doesn’t prove that opponents are wrong now, but it’s worth thinking about.I’m not even talking about recent historical judgment concerning this same part of the world. Virtually every opponent of the new Iran deal was also a proponent of invading Iraq 12 years ago. In both cases, Iraq and Iran, the very same people thought that the threat was imminent and grave, that diplomacy was ineffective, and that a hard line was called for. This group notably included David Frum, who at the time was a speechwriter for George W. Bush. (Before you ask: I was a speechwriter for Jimmy Carter while the movement to overthrow the shah was gaining momentum in 1978.)
So far, I have found exactly two public figures who have opposed or questioned the Iran deal and who did not also support the Iraq War: They are Senator Robert Menendez of New Jersey and, disappointingly, former-Senator-now-presidential-candidate Jim Webb of Virginia. In all other cases, people who are alarmist about Iran in 2015 are the same ones who were alarmist about Iraq in 2003.
* * *
The more important point about judgment concerns the long record of agreements of this sort. Many of them have been controversial; some have been enacted and some have not. But in most cases, I contend, the skeptical opponents have been proven, by history, to have been wrong. Let’s consider: There has been one major case in which the proponents of diplomacy were proven naive, the advocates of a tougher line were right, and the talk of compromise ended in ashes. That was of course Munich in 1938.If you think that every adversary is Hitler’s Nazi Germany, that every pro-negotiation Western diplomat is Neville Chamberlain, and that every hardline opponent is Winston Churchill, then you’re likely to see every negotiated agreement as a mistake. But consider a few other examples:
The League of Nations vote, 1920: Senator Henry Cabot Lodge and his allies campaigned ferociously against Woodrow Wilson’s advocacy of American entry into the League of Nations after World War I. The opponents won; the League of Nations entry failed; a bitter and vengeful peace of Versailles, minus U.S. participation, followed. Might the history of 1930s Europe have been different otherwise? Who knows. But I don’t find any historian of the era saying, Thank God for the foresight of Henry Cabot Lodge.
The Panama Canal treaty, 1978: Jesse Helms, already a senator from North Carolina, became a national figure through his opposition to the treaty that transferred operational control of the canal to Panama. Strom Thurmond, then a senator from South Carolina, said that it would lead to the communist encirclement of the United States. Negotiations for the transfer had actually begun under Gerald Ford, but they were frozen during the 1976 election because of Republican Party criticism. Jimmy Carter completed the treaty (I was there, in Panama, for the transfer ceremony) and got it through the Senate. The Republicans made it a campaign issue in 1978 and 1980. Every one of their fears and warnings has proven wrong.
Law of the Sea Treaty, 1960s-onward: The United States participated in the drafting of a Law of the Sea treaty, but for the usual reasons has never ratified it. E.g., Jeane Kirkpatrick, the Reagan administration’s UN ambassador, said duringthe George W. Bush administration that “it was a bad bargain,” and that “its ratification will diminish our capacity for self-government, including, ultimately, our capacity for self-defense.” Now some 160+ other nations have ratified the treaty, but not the United States—and one perverse result is to deny one grounds for protest against China’s expansion into the South and East China Seas. Without going into all the details, the treaty opponents look as wise as Henry Cabot Lodge.
Some other treaties of the Cold War era, notably the ABM treaty and the Salt I and Salt II treaties of the 1970s, now seem enmeshed in the arcana of that era (though I remember taking part in heated debates on all of them). Here’s the point: Looking back, very few people could say that they represented irresponsible, naively gullible deals with the enemy. And virtually no one would say that about the Non-Proliferation Treaty of the 1960s.
* * *
Let’s raise this to a higher principle. In modern times, executive-branch judgment in decisions to go to war has often been flawed. In two consequential cases—a Democratic administration’s judgment about going to war in Vietnam, and a Republican administration’s judgment about invading Iraq—the result, more than mere flaw, was strategic disaster.But for Republican and Democratic administrations alike, judgment about accepting the risks of negotiated agreement has generally proven sound. The one gross counter-example is Munich. But to state the obvious: That wasn’t an American agreement; it involved the unique evils of Hitler and Nazism; and it was nearly 80 years ago. Counting examples from modern American diplomacy, even with full skepticism about abuse of executive power, there are more reasons to trust administrations’ judgment about treaties than to mistrust them.
* * *
We’ll hear the case, we’ll consider the arguments, we’ll allow for the unknown. But on the facts, it would be good to hear a better alternative from people who oppose the deal. And on judgment, for now the benefit of the doubt is with the administration rather than its critics.
Why not actually EXAMINE the "DEAL"?
ReplyDeleteWhy the knee jerk response to anyone that finds fault?
Interesting how the SPECIFICS (that are intact quite scary) are glossed over and it's all about Sal Alinsky's Rules for Radicals to slander those opposed to the DEAL. (in the west)
It is very telling that the secret annexes, the cash transfers, the promises of USA protection of Iranian assets (nuclear) are not discussed.
It's very telling how excited the supporters are for a deal they have never actually read or examined.
The simple solution to the bad deal is continued sanctions.
But that horse has left the barn with America already transferring 11.8 billion dollars in payments and the lifting of several sanctions.
The end run around Congress? Shows weakness.
If the DEAL was so good? Why not get the American people on board?
The good news?
The Iranians, may actually turn it down (as it doesn't give them everything) (Including a statement that all sanctions are illegal and the USA and the west owes them for restitution)
The Iranians are chess players. Obama either is a checker player or he wishes to bring the USA down to a cuckholded level.
Which is it?
Why would America single handedly dismantle decades of legal sanctions for empty promises by a fanatical regime with blood on it's hands of over 1000 American soldiers in Iraq?
What is the rush to sign a deal?
Why not allow sanctions to continue?
But as I said, the horse has left the barn. Now the ball is in Iran's court IF Iran behaves in its past patterns? It will cheat and it will get away with it.
There is also the possibility that Congress will approve the deal but pass additional legislation to penalize Iran if caught cheating.
Either way? Hamas, Hezbollah, the Iranian proxies in Yemen are all being resupplied because America transferred 11.8 billion over the last 12 months. (Iran's entire military annual budget is 15 billion)
Look for more arms to flow into hezbollah, hamas (etc) more deaths, more chaos.
Thanks Obama.
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DeleteIt is very telling that the secret annexes, the cash transfers, the promises of USA protection of Iranian assets (nuclear) are not discussed.
I have been looking for, googling, etc,. for details if they exist of where and what the US has promised in regard to protecting Iran's nuclear facilities. I have been unable to find anything so far. If true, I agree it's bullshit. Do you have a link?
Secret annexes?
What are they and who says they exist? What proof do we have? A link?
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DeleteWhy not actually EXAMINE the "DEAL"?
Why the knee jerk response to anyone that finds fault?
Interesting how the SPECIFICS (that are intact quite scary) are glossed over and it's all about Sal Alinsky's Rules for Radicals to slander those opposed to the DEAL. (in the west)
:o)
I find this charge quite ironic given that those opposed to the deal, even before the deal was negotiated, even before they had a chance to read the final agreement, were denouncing 'any' deal with Iran, calling Obama the new Chamberlain and worse, accusing those who support the deal of being 'cowards and pussies', setting their hair on fire ad declaring the coming Armageddon.
Yep, quite ironic.
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DeleteThe Iranians are chess players. Obama either is a checker player or he wishes to bring the USA down to a cuckholded level.
Which is it?
You are the 'master of the false dilemma'.
Oh, by the way, that is not a good thing.
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I learned of a few points about the deal, it was enough for me to be against it. I didn't need to see anymore before making up my mind that it was a bad deal. Conversely, what a good deal is? can be voided by the smallest of details.
DeleteSo shooting from the hip aint shooting from the hip in learning a few details that suck..
it's like making stew.
all is fine till you slip in just a little poison, then it's ruined.
You are the 'master of the false dilemma'.
DeleteOh, by the way, that is not a good thing.
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I LEARNED from you sonny...
Quirk: I find this charge quite ironic given that those opposed to the deal, even before the deal was negotiated, even before they had a chance to read the final agreement, were denouncing 'any' deal with Iran
DeleteNo not "any" deal"
Don't play loose and fast with words.
ANY deal?
really.
Here are the 5 points in any deal with Iran that I would support. (right from AIPAC's talking points)
1.INSPECTIONS AND VERIFICATION
Inspectors must be permitted unimpeded access to suspect sites.
A good deal must support “anytime, anywhere” inspections – including all military facilities – to verify Iranian compliance. Iran’s decades-long history of cheating on international obligations suggests it will secretly attempt to continue its nuclear weapons program. Iran cannot be permitted any safe havens where it could pursue this ambition.
2. POSSIBLE MILITARY DIMENSIONS
Iran must fully explain its prior weaponization efforts.
A good deal must require Iran to come clean on all of its prior nuclear work, such as developing triggers for a nuclear weapon, as required by six United Nations Security Council resolutions.
The entire scope of Iran’s nuclear activities must be known to establish a baseline against which to measure future actions. Iran must also be made to comply with prior commitments;
allowing Iran to shirk them will only tempt it to defy commitments made under a new deal.
3. SANCTIONS
Sanctions relief must commence only after Iran complies with its commitments.
A good deal must lift sanctions gradually as Iran meets its obligations under the agreement. Further, any deal should specify clear and immediate consequences for Iranian violations. The international community must retain significant leverage while Iran demonstrates compliance; it must not provide immediate sanctions relief or unfreeze a significant portion of Tehran’s assets so Iran can “take the money and run.”
4. DURATION
Iran’s nuclear weapons quest must be blocked for decades.
A good deal must prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear threshold state. The announced framework would lift nuclear restrictions in 10 to 15 years and grant Iran virtually instant breakout time after
12 or 13 years. A deal must restrict Iran’s nuclear capabilities until it demonstrates conclusively, over time, that it no longer seeks a nuclear weapons capability.
5. DISMANTLEMENT
Iran must dismantle its nuclear infrastructure so it has no path to a nuclear weapon.
A good deal must require Iran to dismantle its nuclear infrastructure and relinquish its uranium stockpile such that it has neither a uranium nor plutonium pathway to nuclear weapons.
Give me those 5 points in a deal with Iran and i'd support it.
U.S. 'disturbed' by Iranian leader's criticism after deal
ReplyDeleteThe United States said on Tuesday it was very disturbed by anti-U.S. hostility voiced by Iran's top leader after a nuclear deal, as both countries' top diplomats sought to calm opposition to the accord from political hardliners at home.
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said a speech by Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei on Saturday vowing to defy American policies in the region despite a deal with world powers over Tehran's nuclear programme was "very troubling".
"I don't know how to interpret it at this point in time, except to take it at face value, that that's his policy," he said in the interview with Saudi-owned Al Arabiya television.
"But I do know that often comments are made publicly and things can evolve that are different. If it is the policy, it's very disturbing, it's very troubling," he added.
Ayatollah Khamenei, the highest authority in Iran, told supporters on Saturday that U.S. policies in the region were "180 degrees" opposed to Iran's, in a Tehran speech punctuated by chants of "Death to America" and "Death to Israel".
LOL
That's who you are dealing with Deuce, Quirk and Rufus.
LOL
Your man in tehran...
Ayatollah Khamenei, the highest authority in Iran
the MAN
Not some lackey...
But THE MAN....
Ayatollah Khamenei, the highest authority in Iran
Iran’s Khamenei hails his people for demanding death to America and Israel
http://www.timesofisrael.com/irans-khamenei-hails-his-people-for-demanding-death-to-america-and-israel/
At Al-Quds day rallies last week, Khamenei noted appreciatively, “You heard ‘Death to Israel’, ‘Death to the US.’ You could hear it. The whole nation was shaken by these slogans. It wasn’t only confined to Tehran. The whole of the nation, you could hear, that was covered by this great movement. So we ask Almighty God to accept these prayers by the people of Iran.”
Khamenei also vowed in the speech, which was broadcast live on state television, that the nuclear agreement with the major powers would not change Iran’s policy against the “arrogant American government” nor would it change the Islamic Republic’s policy of supporting its “friends” in the region.
LOL
These are the folks you want to sign an agreement with...
Question, When Iran took over our embassy and broke all legal and moral positions and held our citizens for 444 days did you support Iran?
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DeleteQuestion, When Iran took over our embassy and broke all legal and moral positions and held our citizens for 444 days did you support Iran?
No. I didn't support it.
I also didn't support the US invasion of Iraq. I didn't support the renditions or the indefinite imprisonments without charges. I didn't support the torture or Abu Graiab. I didn't support Saudi Arabia's proselytizing or the spread of radical wahhabism that led to al Qeada, 9/11, and ISIS. I didn't support Sabra and Shatila
In 2006, former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak stated, "When we entered Lebanon ... there was no Hezbollah. We were accepted with perfumed rice and flowers by the Shia in the south. It was our presence there that created Hezbollah".[52]
No, I didn't support any of it.
But this deal is about Iran's nuclear capability. It was not designed to resolve all the issues we have with Iran. Bibi has been claiming that Iran is just months away from having a bomb for the past 20 years. This deal cuts back on Iran's capability and is designed to push their possibility of making a bomb off for 10 to 20 years. Ten to twenty years from now, Bibi will still be whining that Iran is only months away from getting the bomb. The difference is that it will be 10 to 20 years down the road and in that time a lot of things can change, including some that are positive. For one neither Khomeini nor Netanyahu will be in power.
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I dont support a lot of things but to list them is not on topic.
DeleteThe deal with Iran does not cut back on Iran's capacity.
It doesn't allow inspections of military sites.
It gives Iran 24 days notice of a request to inspect and then it must be approved.
It removes non-nuclear sanctions and allows Iran to not come clean about it's military applications of the past.
It does not cut back on any time for Iran, at it's choosing to make a bomb. They will have the ability to assemble a bomb in 2 months at any time they choose.
Nothing stops Iran from building a bomb while under this agreement if they choose do so without admitting it.
LIKE numerous other examples cheating on previous agreements that we have seen.
Nothing stops Iran from building a plutonium processing center in Syria.Or building an ICBM plant in Lebanon or Yemen.
And again, as for your false narrative "For one neither Khomeini nor Netanyahu will be in power"
More importantly Obama will be out of power in 16 months.
Bibi? 20 years down the line? He may be running, in a democratic election, for his 5th term.
Khomeini is already dead.
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DeleteThe deal with Iran does not cut back on Iran's capacity.
You're wrong.
It doesn't allow inspections of military sites.
I believe there is a process that will allow this if there is credible suspicion of cheating at one of those sites. I'm looking for the article I saw a few days ago that covered this and will link it when I find it. However, on this point, what other country in the world would allow a team representing their long-time enemies to visit their military installations. Just asking.
It gives Iran 24 days notice of a request to inspect and then it must be approved.
And if it is not eventually approved, the entire agreement is null and void.
It removes non-nuclear sanctions and allows Iran to not come clean about it's military applications of the past.
It removes sanctions as Iran fulfills its commitments under the deal. As for your comment on military applications from the past, you are wrong. In fact, over the last couple of days I have explained this to you a couple of times.
It does not cut back on any time for Iran, at it's choosing to make a bomb. They will have the ability to assemble a bomb in 2 months at any time they choose.
You are wrong.
Nothing stops Iran from building a bomb while under this agreement if they choose do so without admitting it.
There is no way you could rule this out. That being said, this deal makes it much harder for Iran to do it. In fact, the agreement makes it almost impossible for Iran to do it. Try reading this...
http://www.vox.com/2015/4/2/8337347/iran-deal-good/in/8104428
Nothing stops Iran from building a plutonium processing center in Syria.Or building an ICBM plant in Lebanon or Yemen.
Let's see, ISIS, al-Qeada, Saudi Arabia, the U.S. troops there all might notice and object. Iran is huge, yet, the Iranians are going to go to a war zone, one with ever shifting lines, to build a secret facility. Geez, WiO, even you have to admit that is a stretch.
One thing to remember, if the deal falls through and the US was faced with a military response, it will much easier after we have completed the ongoing reviews of Iran's facilities that represent a major part of this deal.
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ReplyDeleteMartin O'Malley apologizes for saying 'all lives matter'
While I understand the point being made it is, IMO, a sad commentary on our society when saying 'all lives matter' has become controversial.
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ReplyDeletePer Eugene Robinson, Donald Trump refuses to play the game. The reason people put up with him is that most people don't like 'the game'.
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Been out of town, and haven't seen much news; but, it looks to me as if Mr. Obama has out-slicked the slickers - big time.
ReplyDeleteQuirkTue Jul 21, 05:27:00 PM EDT
ReplyDelete.
The deal with Iran does not cut back on Iran's capacity.
You're wrong.
It doesn't allow inspections of military sites.
I believe there is a process that will allow this if there is credible suspicion of cheating at one of those sites. I'm looking for the article I saw a few days ago that covered this and will link it when I find it. However, on this point, what other country in the world would allow a team representing their long-time enemies to visit their military installations. Just asking.
Actually quirk, America lets Russia visit and inspect our sites.
example: http://freebeacon.com/national-security/russians-inspect-missile-defense-base-in-california/
DeleteActually quirk, America lets Russia visit and inspect our sites.
Then let’s have Israel step up and open her sites.
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DeleteWiO is just playing the fool. He knows nothing about this deal except what he is handed in the daily talking points they hand him. As for the Russians, I'm sure they have 24/7 access to US military bases. They just show up when they want and walk right on and start inspecting. Not.
As for the Iranian bases,
One of the most controversial issues in the negotiations was whether the U.N.'s International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) would be able to visit military sites if they had questions about suspected nuclear activities or facilities within them.
The matter became even harder to resolve, diplomats said, after Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, on June 23 said granting access to Iran's military sites was a "red line."
In the end, Britain, China, France, Germany, Russia and the United States agreed on language with Iran that requires more of Tehran than the existing global nonproliferation system while avoiding a direct mention of the sensitive military site issue.
"This is rather clever and reflects the interests of all sides," said George Perkovich, vice president of studies at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace think tank.
INSPECTIONS, 'WITHOUT SAYING SO'
Under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty's "Additional Protocol," the IAEA may ask for "managed access" to any site, including military, but a country can legitimately bar access by tying the U.N. nuclear watchdog up in endless negotiations.
This deal aims to close such loopholes with a process under which Iran would give access or otherwise allay IAEA concerns within 24 days, a time frame experts say is tight enough to keep it from sanitizing unauthorized nuclear work.
Iran and the IAEA have 14 days to resolve disagreements among themselves. If they fail to, a joint commission comprised of eight members - the six major powers, Iran and the European Union - would consider the matter for a week.
A majority of the eight could then inform Iran of the steps it would then take within three more days.
Majority-rule means the United States and its European allies -- Britain, France, Germany and the EU -- could insist on access or any other steps and that Iran, Russia or China could not veto them.
"This almost inevitably means inspections but without saying so. That’s why diplomats make the big bucks," Perkovich added.
Nonproliferation experts said the regime falls short of the "anywhere, anytime" inspections demanded by critics of the deal, including many Republicans, but said that would only be possible in a country that has been defeated militarily.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/15/us-iran-nuclear-military-sites-analysis-idUSKCN0PP2TG20150715
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DeleteThe same applies to his asinine comment that I am making this stuff up. Rather than read up on the deal and learning what's in it, it's much easier to take the talking points he is handed and run with them.
Another example from today,
It removes non-nuclear sanctions and allows Iran to not come clean about it's military applications of the past.
I responded with: "I believe there is a process that will allow this if there is credible suspicion of cheating at one of those sites. I'm looking for the article I saw a few days ago that covered this and will link it when I find it."
Here is the link,
Wolfsthal also discussed the thorny issue of Iran’s suspected past nuclear activities with a military dimension. Under a new agreement with the IAEA concluded just before the July 14 announcement of the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA), Wolfsthal said, Iran must satisfy the IAEA’s concerns about such activities by October so that the agency can present a report to its 35-member board of governors Dec. 15.
This information will give the agency a better understanding of the research Iran is said to have conducted from the late 1990s through 2003. Without clearing up this file, said Wolfsthal, Iran would get no sanctions relief, and the entire deal would be scrapped...
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/07/iran-nuclear-deal-compliance.html#ixzz3gFvIQ8QI
I recall referencing this link in a post the other day. I mentioned to provision a couple times since in responding to the same accusation by WiO. I'm sure WiO didn't read the link just as I am sure he didn't read the links I put up today. But his fallback excuse is 'Where's the link?'. And by the way, I'm still waiting for a response to my request from above.
[QuirkTue Jul 21, 10:56:00 AM EDT
WiO: It is very telling that the secret annexes, the cash transfers, the promises of USA protection of Iranian assets (nuclear) are not discussed.
Quirk: I have been looking for, googling, etc,. for details if they exist of where and what the US has promised in regard to protecting Iran's nuclear facilities. I have been unable to find anything so far. If true, I agree it's bullshit. Do you have a link?
Secret annexes?
What are they and who says they exist? What proof do we have? A link?]
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I don't really expect an answer; yet, he demands it of everyone else..
WiO doesn't know shit about this deal but that doesn't prevent him from spouting off. I'm though bothering with him.
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The deal with Iran does not cut back on Iran's capacity.
ReplyDeleteYou're wrong.
Am i?
this deal doesn't require Iran to dismantle anything.
When Bush left office they had 643 level one centrifuges... today? they have over 9000 level on and 9000 level 3 centrifuges.
The deal requires Iran to put into storage 9000, in the same base that they are operating in. Not dismantled. Storage.
It gives Iran 24 days notice of a request to inspect and then it must be approved.
ReplyDeleteAnd if it is not eventually approved, the entire agreement is null and void.
And do you really think Russia and China are going to approve of any requests once they are doing business for billions?
Ole fox guarding the hen house eh?
It removes non-nuclear sanctions and allows Iran to not come clean about it's military applications of the past.
ReplyDeleteIt removes sanctions as Iran fulfills its commitments under the deal. As for your comment on military applications from the past, you are wrong. In fact, over the last couple of days I have explained this to you a couple of times.
Once again you say " i am wrong" but you provide no proof, links or facts. Just assertions.
fact:
America already has lifted select sanctions and Iran has not done anything, except receive 700 million a month by the obama administration.
Your level of confidence in Iranian complainance is amazing, I can only imagine what christmas morning is like in your house...
Iran defense chief forbids international inspections of military sites
Despite nuclear deal’s terms, Hossein Dehqan says IAEA won’t be allowed to probe ‘defensive and missile capabilities’
Iran’s defense minister on Monday said Tehran would not allow international inspectors to enter the Islamic Republic’s military sites, in comments that appear at odds with the terms of a landmark nuclear deal struck with world powers last week.
Brigadier General Hossein Dehghan also said the nuclear deal does not limit Iran’s missile development, which he maintained Tehran would “resolutely” pursue.
The comments came on the heels of Iran’s Foreign Ministry saying the UN could not ban Iranian ballistic missile development under the deal and a top military commander rejecting the UN’s adoption of the groundbreaking accord earlier in the day.
WhatIran will not stop it's ICBM development? But expects the sanctions to be removed?
HMMMM
WIO: It does not cut back on any time for Iran, at it's choosing to make a bomb. They will have the ability to assemble a bomb in 2 months at any time they choose.
ReplyDeleteTo which you say: You are wrong.
WIO: Nothing stops Iran from building a bomb while under this agreement if they choose do so without admitting it.
There is no way you could rule this out. That being said, this deal makes it much harder for Iran to do it. In fact, the agreement makes it almost impossible for Iran to do it. Try reading this...
Try going back to my point.
Iran COULD be building a bomb within 2 months. It it CHOOSE to.
Which you say is possible.
IF Iran were required to dismantle their centrifuges, required to send out their spent fuel rods for exchange (as suggested) that would stop Iran from being able to build a bomb...
But your assertions are garbage.
As long as Iran can spin centrifuges and collect uranium they will have access to a path to a bomb.
As long as their ICBMs are off limits? and their war head research is not accounted for?
They will have a path, quickly, at their choosing to build a bomb.
10 years? Hand job.
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DeletePiss on you, WiO. You have your mind made up and no evidence will convince you. I suspect you didn't even read the link I put up above. You merely spout the talking points you are given like a good little boy.
Iran COULD be building a bomb within 2 months. It it CHOOSE to.
Which you say is possible.
Of course, Iran can start trying to make a bomb in two months. Hell, they can 'start' trying to build a bomb today. But given the terms of this agreement, it would take years for them to complete it. They would be starting from scratch. And given the inspection regime with this agreement their chance of secretly developing a bomb are infinitesimally small.
And even if they completely capitulated. Tore down all their nuclear facilities, you and your bros wouldn't be satisfied. You would still argue that they were trying to get the bomb in secret.
It is a waste of time arguing with you. It is a waste of time offering you evidence.
Sit around and piss and moan. Whine all you want from now on, I won't waste my time with you.
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Hey Quirk, time will tell if you are the jackass I think you are...
Delete:)
I suspect?
You will be proved to be a retarded fool...
You really don't know SHIT about Iran. Your comments says it all...
I stated my 5 conditions, of course you are not man enough to logically discuss those points. but rather retort: And even if they completely capitulated. Tore down all their nuclear facilities, you and your bros wouldn't be satisfied. You would still argue that they were trying to get the bomb in secret.
Absolute bullshit.
I love your naive POV: Of course, Iran can start trying to make a bomb in two months. Hell, they can 'start' trying to build a bomb today. But given the terms of this agreement, it would take years for them to complete it. They would be starting from scratch.
What planet do you live on? Do you not know how to read? Iran has uranium, has a delivery system, and has a warhead development (which it refuses to allow inspectors and or explanation for.
It would not be starting from scratch.
You sir, are a moron.
I only hope that whatever violent shit Iran does? It comes down on you and no one else...
You sir are a disgrace.
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DeleteTell it to the hand.
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Worry about something real like Pakistan.
ReplyDeleteIran has an opportunity to get rich or build a bomb that is useless as an offensive weapon. I think they will work on getting rich.
ReplyDeleteEvery country in the world except Israel and the Saudis wants to trade with Iran. The deal is done. It means nothing what the US Congress will do. It was all orchestrated by AIPAC and Netanyahu damaged the brand. The GOP will huff and puff but noting will come of it. They only proved that Boehner is not as smart as Obama.
"Every country in the world except Israel and the Saudis wants to trade with Iran"
DeleteAnd why do you think that Israel doesn't want to "trade"with Iran?
Could it be Iran's goal of genocide of every Jew on the planet?
The good news Deuce? Iran has helped Syria whack over 12,000 palestinians. That should make you happy...
DeleteThe good news is that despite all the combined efforts of the GOP, the Israeli Lobby, The US Media and AIPAC, the US Public supports the deal because they are through with the Neocon Wars:
ReplyDeleteA majority of Americans support the Iran deal despite widespread doubts it will stop the country from developing nuclear weapons, according to new Washington Post-ABC News poll.
The survey finds 56 percent support and 37 percent oppose a deal lifting economic sanctions against Iran in exchange for the nation agreeing not to produce nuclear weapons. Support for the final deal is narrower than for the framework agreement announced in March which received nearly 2 to 1 support in a Post-ABC poll, 59 to 31 percent.
The US public, by a wide majority, does not accept the Israeli/GOP position,
ReplyDeleteThe US public rejected AIPAC and all their hysteria. If the GOP is dumb enough to want to continue a losing fight to support a so-called political ally that will on a good day give them less votes than their Democratic rivals, it is only another step in their steady and certain demise.
ReplyDeleteCASE IN POINT:
DeleteIf there’s a secret competition among Republicans to see who could say the most ridiculous things about the international nuclear agreement with Iran, organizers can call off the contest. Reading this BuzzFeed report, it’s clear that Sen. Mark Kirk (R-Ill.) has won an ignominious prize.
Senator Mark Kirk, a Republican from Illinois, says the nuclear agreement with Iran “condemns the next generation to cleaning up a nuclear war in the Persian Gulf.”
Kirk, who has consistently spoken out against the deal with Iran, told WRKO’s Financial Exchange radio program on Tuesday that he believes “tens of thousands of people in the Middle East are gonna lose their lives because of this decision by Barack Hussein Obama.”
The increasingly erratic Republican senator, who’s facing a tough re-election campaign next year, went on to say, “This is the greatest appeasement since Chamberlain gave Czechoslovakia to Hitler.” Kirk added that he believes the corruption charges against Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) are part of an elaborate conspiracy to punish critics of the administration’s foreign policy.
The Illinois lawmaker, just to abandon any sense of subtlety or propriety, concluded that President Obama “wants … to get nukes to Iran.”
Remember, these quotes weren’t from some radio shock-jock or a strange right-wing blogger. Mark Kirk is an actual, elected member of the U.S. Senate.
Inspired by Iran deal, EU seeks coalition to revive Mideast peace push
ReplyDeleteBRUSSELS | BY ROBIN EMMOTT
Inspired by Europe’s role in a nuclear deal with Iran, the European Union wants to form a broader, U.N.-backed coalition to revive peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
Taking up a French proposal, EU foreign ministers agreed on Monday to try to create an "international support group" more than a year after the collapse of a U.S.-brokered peace push envisaging a Palestinian state co-existing with Israel. The EU wants to open the door to more countries to get involved.
"This week tells us that diplomacy in the long run can deliver," EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini said, referring to the July 14 deal in which Iran agreed to curb its disputed nuclear program in return for an end to sanctions.
The EU foreign ministers' plan envisages obtaining formal approval for the so-called support group at the U.N. General Assembly in New York in September, then a U.N. Security Council resolution to set parameters for a peace deal.
Part of the reason for seeking an international coalition is the deep internal divisions within the 28-nation EU over Middle East policy that limit its ability to take an active role.
Participants in the Iran nuclear accord were world powers Russia, China, the United States, Britain, France and Germany. EU diplomats see a chance to involve many more countries than those in the Middle East Quartet - the United States, the United Nations, the European Union and Russia - that has promoted Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking with little practical effect.
Under the EU proposal, the permanent members of the U.N. Security Council, the larger European economies including Spain and Italy, and Arab nations could play a bigger role.
Mogherini, who met Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in May, sees a chance for EU diplomacy in the absence of a new diplomatic initiative from Washington as President Barack Obama approaches the end of his final term.
While the central players in the nuclear negotiations were Iran and the United States, senior EU officials played a central role in mediating negotiations, becoming the unsung heroes of the deal and giving EU diplomats confidence to do more abroad.
"The (Israeli-Palestinian) peace process is at a standstill. The situation is bad. Europe should help both parties to take steps to overcome the impasse," French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said.
Palestinians seek a state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, areas captured by Israel in a 1967 war. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 but has expanded settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/20/us-israel-palestinians-eu-idUSKCN0PU1Z320150720
DeleteOh My!
ReplyDeleteA Washington Post-ABC News poll showed Mr Trump ahead of the field with 24 per cent support against 13 per cent for his nearest rival, Scott Walker, the Governor of Wisconsin. Meanwhile, in the key caucus state of Iowa, the Des Moines Register called Mr Trump a “feckless blowhard” and demanded that he get out of the race entirely.
Still nothing about the ongoing police coverup of the “police on biker" riot in Waco.
ReplyDelete2,150,000 weapons found on the scene but no report on how many of the dead bikers were killed with police weapons.
ReplyDeleteI bet a bunch of bought and paid for Democrats would like to shoot Obama, right about now.
ReplyDelete