How the North distorts Civil War history
Hugh Howard is the author of “Houses of Civil War America.”
With astonishing speed — and a surprising new consensus — the status of the Confederate battle flag has been altered. While a reconsideration of that symbol’s original meaning is long overdue, there is a countervailing risk that the righteous satisfaction in some quarters at lowering the flag may blind us to another large misunderstanding of the past.
The conversation in recent days has been illuminating, as many politicians from the South try to navigate a historic landscape blurred by generations of distortions. With the abruptness of cataract surgery, “Lost Cause” interpretations of a genteel Southern past have fallen away. The denials that, in the Confederacy, the impetus for war was slavery have long rung false; the minutes of the secession conventions held in Southern states make that explicit (as one Mississippi advocate put it in 1861, “slavery was ordained by God and sanctioned by humanity”). Acknowledging that the Confederate flag symbolized the fight to extend human bondage can at last put to rest an enduring falsehood in our national memory.
As important as this corrective may be, we will do our historical memory a disservice if we fail to recall how citizens of the Union regarded Abraham Lincoln’s War, slavery and even African Americans. To a surprising extent, the way the North remembers the Civil War is also deeply flawed and misleading.
Recall that when Lincoln took office, slavery had the official sanction of the U.S. government. Like it or not, slavery was a part of the economic history of the North as well as the South. Much of the nation’s cotton, its largest export, was taken north of the Mason-Dixon Line to be processed; for that matter, many of the South’s most successful planters were Yankees who adopted with alacrity the practice of slavery on their way to wealth.
In the antebellum years, there was nothing resembling an anti-slavery consensus in the North. America’s greatest philosopher, Ralph Waldo Emerson, hesitated for years to decry what he called “the habit of oppression.” When he finally did so from the podium in Concord Town Hall, he was called a fanatic and worse. The word “abolition” made his neighbors angry. The idea rang radical even in Massachusetts, where many regarded those who espoused such views as dangerous.
It’s simply wrong-headed to presume that average, mid-19th-century farmers and factory workers in the North harbored abolitionist sympathies. They didn’t.
I was taught growing up in Yankee Massachusetts that the North went to war to end slavery, but since then I have come to understand that I was misinformed. A case in point is the story of the well-known primitive painter Robert Peckham. He had served as a deacon in the same Congregational church that I attended as a child in central Massachusetts. But archival research reveals that, in 1850, when Deacon Peckham espoused abolitionist sentiments, the church fathers excommunicated him, declaring one of their own unwelcome because they thought his ideas too extreme. Little Westminster represented a quiet majority opinion in the region.
Even Lincoln’s racial thinking evolved in a slow and ambiguous manner. Until the very end of his life, the hero of the age resisted the notion that the black and white races were equal. In his famous 1858 debates — and elsewhere — he repeatedly rejected the idea of permitting black men to vote, serve as jurors, hold office or intermarry with whites. “There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality.”
That meant that, at its outset, the war for Lincoln was explicitly about union — until it became expedient to make it about emancipation. The Emancipation Proclamation was primarily intended to hobble the Confederacy’s war effort, which relied upon slaves for provisioning and other support.
Even among those who recognized that human bondage must end, few thought blacks were equal to whites. In the South, where 95 percent of the nation’s African Americans resided, slavery had been a fact of life for generations, fixing the black man’s inferiority in the minds of most whites. In the North, where less than 1 percent of the population was black, relatively few whites interacted with men or women of color; there, anyone of African descent remained very much other.
The past is no more a fixed destination than the future is, and we need to question constantly the history we’ve been handed. One encounters such proper names as Reconstruction, Jim Crow, Selma and, now, Clementa Pinckney. But even as our outrage simmers at what made possible the allegedly murderous ignorance of Dylann Roof, we would do well to consider that, aside from the color of some of the players’ skins, there is little that is black and white about our terrible Civil War and the enduring legacy with which we must still wrestle.
I think you will fine the second video fascinating.
ReplyDeleteThey started flying the stars and bars in 1961 when civil rights laws started being handed down federally. If someone wants to fly the swastika or burn a cross in their OWN yard, or hang the stars and bars from their own house, more power to 'em, as long as I don't see it in an official position. So we get this terrorist who wrapped himself in a flag and wants to start a race war with a shoot-em-up, but all he did was bring the issue to a wider audience and show the general public how offensive it is to fly a symbol of hate from the state capitol. But how the party of Lincoln got the Confederate battle flag wrapped around their neck, the one flown by the ANV when they looted Maryland and Pennsylvania, I'll never figure out.
ReplyDeleteAbraham Lincoln was inaugurated on Jan. 20, 1861.
ReplyDeleteThe Rebs attacked Ft. Sumter on April 12, 1861.
51 days.
Oops, 82 Days
DeleteYou should review your history, Rufus. Lincoln was inaugurated March 4.
DeleteJeff Davis was already President of the Confederacy the previous month.
DeleteThe Real argument was over the future of Slavery in the Territories.
DeleteLincoln was on record as wanting to keep Slavery contained to the South,
and the rich slavers wanted to move their business model westward, Texas and beyond.
When Lee came north, some of his boys went around looking for "n-----rs" to bring back home. Not all of them were escaped slaves. Lee did his awful best to extinguish the last best hope for civilization, the American republic.
Delete"You should review your history, Rufus. Lincoln was inaugurated March 4."
ReplyDeleteNo Shit!
Well, I made that classic mistake of "assuming," didn't I? My mistake.
That makes it 39 days, then; doesn't it.
The thing is, Slavery was an incredibly profitable business model. The Plantation Owners were going to expand it, or lose a war trying.
DeleteThey had to keep expanding, because cotton took all the nitrogen out of the ground and fucked up the soil for anything else. In that way it was a lot like cutting timber and sending the lumber to Japan. There's whole sections of Washington State only fit to grow crap red alder for paper pulp mills.
DeleteIMO, the Civil War extended bigotry and racial hatred by a century. Every country in the Americas that practiced slavery, other than the US ended it without a monstrous war. Racial attitudes varied and persisted in some forms but nothing comp[ared to US history:
Delete... Latin America has had its share of violent racism through the years: The Argentines virtually exterminated their Indians, and even in Brazil, our most racially integrated country (which didn’t abolish slavery until 1888), the black population still faces prejudice and hurdles to power. But European-style racism — which not only mistreats and discriminates but also persecutes and, in the very worst cases, tries to exterminate others because of their ethnicity — has been the exception and not the rule in modern Latin America.
The issue of racism varies from country to country. In places where the mixing of ethnicities (mestizaje) and cultures prevailed under the Spanish and Portuguese empires — countries like Mexico, Colombia and Brazil — racist attitudes and practices have been far less pronounced. Where Indian populations remained physically and culturally separate from the Spaniards — in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Guatemala and northern Chile — racial discrimination against Indians has been stronger and in some cases persists today. In a country like Venezuela, with a small Indian population, a huge mixture of formerly enslaved Africans and a minority of creoles (criollos, of unmixed Spanish descent), derogatory language based on skin color is common. One of the achievements of Hugo Chávez (the late Venezuelan president was of mixed ethnicity) was to affirm the claims for just treatment of the majority, dark-skinned population, even to the point of inventing an Afro-American lineage for the Creole liberator of much of Latin America, Simón Bolívar.
The American author John Reed, who rode with Pancho Villa in 1913, noted that Mexicans seemed little concerned with skin color (in great contrast to racism in the United States). Reed obviously experienced Mexico at war and the camaraderie of revolutionary soldiers; subtler features of the culture (such as the higher incidence of racist feeling among some creole families) were outside his experience. Still, Mexican history supports his general observations about race.
{...]
{...}Benito Juárez, perhaps Mexico’s greatest president, who presided over a country at war and at peace from 1858 to 1872, was a Zapotec Indian. Elsewhere in Latin America, the only other Indian ever elected to the highest office of a country is the current president of Bolivia, Evo Morales. But in Mexico, since the Juárez era, only three presidents have been creoles, while all the rest were mestizos of mixed ancestry.
DeleteThere is indeed an element of racial tolerance at the very base of Mexico’s culture. It stems from a current within the Catholic Church, exemplified by the great apostle to the Indians, Bartolomé de las Casas, who persuaded the king of Spain that Indians had souls and should not be formally enslaved. While this position was not universally supported and honored by the Spanish colonial masters, it was a strong deterrent to further degradation of the Indian population of New Spain, already decimated by diseases imported from Europe. Unfortunately, Las Casas did not argue for the worth (or perhaps the existence) of African souls and urged that Indians enslaved in the most grueling labor (sugar plantations and mines) could be replaced by African slaves. It was a view he would later regret and reject.
An estimated 200,000 to 500,000 enslaved Africans were brought to New Spain. But thanks in part to an undercurrent of equality among different ethnicities, African slavery in New Spain was somewhat less degrading in practice than it was in the United States. It was first outlawed in 1810 by Father Miguel Hidalgo, who led a short-lived insurrection against the colonial rulers, and then formally abolished in 1821 after the hard-fought victory in the struggle for Mexican independence, which had two part-African mestizos, José María Morelos and Vicente Guerrero, among its most prominent leaders. The equality and liberty of all Mexicans was then enshrined in the country’s earliest constitutions and the last slaves were freed by 1829.
{...}
ReplyDelete{...}
Before emancipation, African slaves arguably enjoyed greater privileges than indigenous Indians. They could buy their freedom and circulate throughout New Spain with some ease. While certain occupations were closed to them, many were not, and they often prospered in various trades and professions. In these ways, they contributed to the racial inclusiveness of mestizaje.
Mexico’s enduring problem is one of acute class differences — “classism” rather than racism — though it would be wrong to deny that racism toward Indians remains a factor in some parts of the country. Mexico is a complicated place, but its regional, cultural and ethnic identities are not all in conflict with each other. Since the days of the Spanish Conquest, our society has always favored mixing and syncretism. No one uses the word mestizo in ordinary speech, for the simple reason that almost the entire population is of mixed origin — Spanish, Indian and African. It is the cultural inclusiveness present in our religiosity, our art, our food, and even in the names of our streets and towns that determines and fortifies the way in which we face the modern world.
There is one atrocious stain on Mexico’s modern history: the persecution and killing of Chinese immigrants in northern Mexico during the early decades of the 20th century. But, generally speaking, Latin America has received and sheltered many nationalities fleeing hunger or persecution — and Mexico has been at the forefront of this receptiveness and openness. It is a national trait that Americans should recognize and value when passing judgment on the current surge of immigrants arriving from Mexico and Central America.
Enrique Krauze is a historian, the editor of the literary magazine Letras Libres and the author of “Redeemers: Ideas and Power in Latin America.” This article was translated by Hank Heifetz from the Spanish.
I see nothing great about Abraham Lincoln and why a so-called freedom loving independent people need created demigods who were in reality statist power mongering politicians and manipulative architects of mass killing is beyond me.
ReplyDeleteThere’s whole sections of Washington State only fit to grow crap red alder for paper pulp mills.
ReplyDeleteIt is all about big money, big business all the time. Everything else is circus.
Soy Beans replenish the nitrogen taken from the land by cotton, but in 1860 no one had much use for soy beans, and no one wanted to put their "cotton land" to production of such an uneconomic crop every other year.
DeletePeople give George Washington Carver all the credit for preaching "crop rotation," but they were rotating crops in the middle east 8,000 years ago.
I doubt that the Southern Planters, in their sober moments, thought that they would "win" a war with the North, but probably figured that, inasmuch as the Northern Textile Mills were making a fortune off of cotton, also, they would sue for peace (compromise,) and everyone could go on about their business.
DeleteAnd, it almost worked. They just didn't figure on the stubbornness of a really ugly, back-country lawyer (and, two guys named Grant, and Sherman.)
Also, the Steel Horse, and the Telegraph were game changers. The North could identify an opening, or a need, and move thousands of men several hundred, or more, miles in a weekend.
DeleteAnd, manufacturing.. Trainloads of ammunition, produced, and transported to the battle, at the drop of a hat.
DeleteAnd, btw, the North did not have enough money to buy out the slave owners (even if they'd wanted to - which, of course, they didn't.)
ReplyDeleteWhat made the slaves so valuable in the U.S. as opposed to say, Chile, or Equador, was the climate of the Southern United States; it was/is virtually perfect for growing cotton - much more so than, say, Mexico, or Guatamala, etc.
The GDP of the North was approx. $1.7 Billion in 1860.
DeleteThe total value of the slaves in the South was, minimally, $4.0 Billion.
Northern Industry in the Civil War
The upshot of everything was, if you fire artillery at Old Glory, we burn your capital to the ground.
Delete
ReplyDeleteJeb and the Nation of Takers
July 11, 2015 10:44 am July 11, 2015 10:44 am
Maybe we were unfair to Mitt Romney; Jeb “people should work longer hours” Bush is making him look like a model of empathy for the less fortunate. All the obvious points apply: longer hours would mean more GDP (if and when the economy ever gets back to full employment), but not necessarily better lives, especially if the increase in GDP doesn’t trickle down.
But I think it’s also important to understand where this is coming from. Partly it’s Bush trying to defend his foolish 4 percent growth claim; but it’s also, I’m almost certain, coming out of the “nation of takers” dogma that completely dominates America’s right wing.
At my adventure in Las Vegas, one of the questions posed by the moderator was, if I remember it correctly, “What would you do about America’s growing underclass living off welfare?” When I said that the premise was wrong, that this isn’t actually happening, there was general incredulity — this is part of what the right knows is happening. When Jeb Bush — who is a known admirer of Charles Murray — talks about more hours, he’s probably thinking largely about getting the bums on welfare out there working.
As I asked a few months ago, where are these welfare programs people are supposedly living off? TANF is tiny; what’s left are EITC, food stamps, and unemployment benefits. Spending on food stamps and UI soared during the slump, but came down quickly; overall spending on “income security” has shown no trend at all as a share of GDP, with all the supposed growth in means-tested programs coming from Medicaid:
Neat Chart
But isn’t there an epidemic of people declaring themselves disabled? Actually, no. You have to bear in mind the reality that people don’t stay perfectly healthy until they reach 65, or 70, or whatever age plutocrats think they should work until. As all of us pre-seniors can attest, things start to go wrong with increasing frequency all along the life cycle; sometimes they can be managed, but often they can’t, especially for manual workers. And if you look at age-adjusted disability rates, they have been flat or even declining:
DeleteAnother Neat Chart
But none of this will, of course, make any dent in the right-wing narrative: they just know that the rising number of bums on welfare is a problem, even though there basically isn’t any welfare and there are no more bums than there ever were.
Please Jeb, mention the 47 percent! Make my day!
Delete.
DeleteKrugman does what all economists do, he assumes. This time he assumes he knows what Bush is thinking. Makes for a good story for his minions.
A physicist and an economist are walking along the street when a sink hole opens up beneath them. The next moment they are both looking up out of a 20 feet deep hole with very steep sides.
"Damn, what are we going to do now," asks the physicist.
"Simple, we'll just assume a ladder," responds the economist.
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Worked for the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Delete.
DeleteI believe that would be classified as an inside joke.
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I'm getting the feeling that the Allies are trying to "up the game" just a bit;
ReplyDeleteThe United States and its allies carried out 34 air strikes against Islamic State militants in Syria and Iraq on Friday, the U.S. military said.
Various Islamic State targets near the city of Hasaka were hit in 12 of the 17 strikes in Syria, a military statement said on Saturday.
The allied forces also carried out 17 air strikes near eight cities in Iraq, including four near the northern city of Mosul, it said.
(Reporting by Mohammad Zargham)
More Virgins, Please
They dropped bombs on SOMETHING, but with no boots on the ground, I guess they just say "Islamic State targets" and call it good.
DeleteDespite the air strikes, ISIS insists they will not remove their black flags because it represents their heritage.
DeleteFunny how we get all this air action against ISIS just after the Army just lost 40,000 troops. Maybe the Air Force is scairt and needs some points on the board to show the bean counters.
DeleteThe Johnny-Rebs were double-lock cinchs to win, compared to ISIS; but the headcutters are perfect foils. They fit into Everyone's Narrative. If we didn't have them, the MIC would have to invent them.
ReplyDeleteSome say the MIC did.
Delete:) :) Yeah. I left that door Wide Open :)
DeleteJeb says Obama uses too many BigWords™
ReplyDeleteIn an interview with the Union Leader, aspiring 2016 Republican presidential nominee Jeb Bush took a slap at the foreign policies of President Barack Obama, stating that the leader of the free world uses too many big words and wastes his time at conferences with world leaders instead of forging ahead.
http://www.rawstory.com/20a15/07/jeb-bush-accuses-obama-of-creating-chaos-in-the-world-by-using-too-many-big-words/
Children eligible for Medicaid for more of their childhood are less likely to drop out of high school and likelier to earn a college bachelor's degree, a National Bureau of Economic Research study finds. The authors conclude:
ReplyDeleteOur estimates suggest that the long-run returns to providing health insurance access to children are larger than just the short-run gains in health status, and that part of the return to these expansions is a potential reduction in inequality and higher economic growth that stems from the creation of a more skilled workforce.
The study evaluated those born from 1980 to 1990, a period in which the federal and state governments expanded Medicaid to reach many more low-income children. It found that every 10-percentage-point increase in likely Medicaid eligibility reduced the high school dropout rate by 0.4 to 0.55 percentage points and raised the college completion rate by 0.6 to 0.8 percentage points.
As a whole, the eligibility expansions over the period had an impact equivalent to cutting today's high school dropout rate by 9.7 to 14.0 percent and raising the college completion rate by 5.5 to 7.2 percent. That's similar to the gains from educational reforms such as reducing elementary school class sizes and adopting school-wide performance standards.
Prior research showed that comprehensive health care during pregnancy improves children's cognitive ability and educational outcomes. These new findings reveal that continued health care throughout childhood produces further educational gains. They also show that Medicaid coverage can narrow the gap in college graduation rates between low-income and higher-income children.
Medicaid coverage improves educational outcomes at least in part by keeping children healthy and enabling them to perform at a high level in the classroom, the authors suggest. They also find evidence that Medicaid coverage helps reduce risky sexual activity, body mass index, substance abuse, and mental health and eating disorders, although their model isn't powerful enough to generate statistically significant results.
Delete"Returns on the public investments in health insurance in the 1980's and 1990's will be realized for some time," the authors write.
These findings on education add to a growing body of research on the long-term benefits of Medicaid eligibility during childhood, such as higher earnings, fewer hospital visits, and lower mortality rates (see graphic). You'll find more on this research and other aspects of Medicaid at our Medicaid at 50 page.
article
Unfreakin' believable
ReplyDeleteNV Energy, a Berkshire Hathaway-owned utility company, has signed a PPA to purchase electricity from the 100 MW Playa Solar 2 power plant at a stunningly low price of $0.0387/kWh!
CleanTechnica just reported on “the world’s cheapest solar” landing in Austin, Texas, with bids under 4 cents/kWh (and the assumed unsubsidized price of solar thus being below 5.71 cents/kWh), and that was incredible news, but it looks like that staggering news wasn’t even the highlight of the month!
Note that 3.87 cents/kWh is approximately 68% cheaper than the national average electricity price. I’s also well below the low levelized cost of electricity of coal, natural gas, or nuclear, according to Lazard. The only electricity generation option that can compete with that is wind energy. Furthermore, it’s much lower than the low of 6 cents/kWh that Lazard was predicting for solar in 2017, even if you add in the expected federal subsidy boost (which brings the price up to 5.53 cents/kWh).
Neat Chart
“That’s probably the cheapest PPA I’ve ever seen in the US,” Bloomberg Intelligence utility analyst Kit Konolige said. “It helps a lot that they’re in the Southwest where there’s good sun.”
Certainly. More sunlight translates to more power per solar panel, resulting in a lower cost per kWh.
The growth of the solar industry contributes to the price decline we’ve been seeing over the years. The declining cost of solar PV technology certainly helps too. If solar panels get extremely cheap (and at this rate, that might happen), that makes the idea of purchasing extra solar panels to compensate for cloudy weather (as opposed to energy storage or gas backup) more attractive.
Just Freakin' Awesome
That's great, Rufus, no argument from this quarter. My only hassle is with peakers who don't take the price of oil as a signal to venture capitalists into account. They missed the whole fracking thing.
DeleteScotland’s wind energy industry continues to astound observers, with the most recent figures from June showing that wind generated more than double the outputs, compared to a year earlier.
DeleteAccording to data provided and analysed by WeatherEnergy, and reported by Energy Voice, Scottish wind electricity output more than doubled in June, compared to the same time a year earlier, and though these figures were still down in May, June’s figures were still outstanding.
Wind energy generated enough electricity in June to supply the equivalent electricity needs of approximately 1.7 million Scottish households, or the equivalent of 33% of Scotland’s entire electricity needs for the month. Furthermore, wind energy generated in June generated enough electricity on six days out of the month to supply 100% or more of Scottish household needs.
“While much of the attention may have been focused on the welcome summer sunshine, June also turned out to be an astonishing month for wind power in Scotland,” said WWF Scotland director, Lang Banks. “Thanks to a combination of increased capacity and stronger winds, output from turbines more than doubled compared to the same period last year.
“These figures show just how much wind power has gone from strength to strength. However, wind power in Scotland could and should be playing an even bigger role in helping to reduce climate emissions from the power sector,” Banks added.
WWF Scotland, which also joined in on the announcement, was quick to point out the role that solar had as well. According to the environmental lobbyists, “sunshine generated more than four-fifths of the electricity and hot water needs of homes fitted with solar panels.”
“While good for generating power from the sun, the summer months often see a dip in the output from wind turbines,” said Karen Robinson, of WeatherEnergy. “And, while output was certainly lower than the month of May, this June saw a massive jump in output when compared to last year. While the data confirms Scotland is knocking out of the park on wind power, it also confirms it’s no slouch when it comes to solar power too.”
Scottish National Party MSP (Member of the Scottish Parliament) Mike Mackenzie said the figures released today showed that Scotland had a “real opportunity to be a world leader on renewable energy.”
“This excellent progress must not be put at risk by the reckless approach of a Tory government with scant regard for Scotland’s interests,” he said. “These outstanding new figures are a welcome demonstration of the strength of Scotland’s renewables industry, with a 120% boost on the previous year’s figure showing the incredible strides Scotland is making in producing clean, sustainable energy – and showing the
Cleantechnica
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ReplyDelete“This is exactly why the UK Government’s decision to cut onshore wind subsidies funded through the Renewables Obligation is so dangerous — which could see a loss of investment of up to £3 billion, put more than 5,000 jobs at risk and put at risk the excellent progress Scotland has made on renewables in recent years.”
The other side of the equation.
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ReplyDeleteFirst, the GOP ignored Trump.
Now, it appears they all will try to denigrate him.
Will they soon try to ostracize him?
Last week The Donald had 48% of the presidential political talk on social media. ALL of the other candidates in BOTH parties shared the rest. At an event out West, they were actually scalping tickets to get in to hear him.
The question becomes, if the GOP succeeds in ostracizing Trump, do we end up with a Perot Redux 2016?
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If the GOP nominates Trump, I'm voting Donk. I'm through.
Delete.
DeleteI don't expect Trump to be nominated but it begs the question, which Dem would you vote for, certainly not Hill.
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Certainly not B.S., which pretty much leaves me with Hil.
DeleteTrump is bad, but if Jeb Bush calls for putting Terri Schialvo on the ten dollar bill, that's worse
Delete.
Delete...which pretty much leaves me with Hil.
Good lord.
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ReplyDeleteOPM Director Archuleta resigns under pressure from WH. First time I can remember anyone actually being punished for incompetence under Obama.
Of course, at least 21 million federal worker's personal information hacked represent a pretty big voting blog and we are in the middle of the election cycle.
The sad part. They don't know who did, how they did, who has been affected; yet, they continue to pump info into the same systems.
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All in all, I prefer this sort of warfare to skyscrapers falling and battleships being sunk at port.
DeleteTrump is lead clown in the clown car, the one with the biggest shoes, craziest wig and loudest horn.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it interesting, the two safest large cities in the United States sit right on the border with Mexico.
ReplyDelete1. El Paso
2. San Diego
Safest and most dangerous
As for "most dangerous, well .. . . . you can't get much farther from Mexico than Detroit, can you.
Delete.
DeleteYou might be surprised. We get our share. As a matter of fact, ICE broke up a big smuggling ring here a few years ago. The illegals were coming through Florida and being bulk shipped up to Detroit. I forget all the details but I think they were trying to get most of them over to Canada. Our own little underground railroad south of the border style.
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All those dern Mexicans coming here taking our lettuce-picking jobs!
DeleteAfter more than two weeks of marathon negotiations, Iran and six world powers appeared close to a historic nuclear deal that would bring sanctions relief in exchange for curbs on Tehran's atomic program, diplomats said on Sunday.
ReplyDeleteBut U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry cautioned that some difficult issues remained on the 16th day of ministerial negotiations between Iran, the United States, Britain, France, Germany, Russia and China.
"I think we're getting to some real decisions," Kerry told reporters in the Austrian capital. "So I will say, because we have a few tough things to do, I remain hopeful. Hopeful."
Several diplomats close to the talks said an agreement that would end more than a year and a half of negotiations could come as early as on Sunday. In a sign that something might be in the works, both Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi were expected to join the talks.
A senior Iranian official echoed Kerry’s cautious optimism.
"The deal is within reach today," a senior Iranian official told Reuters. "But some issues remain that need to be resolved by foreign ministers."
Jaw, jaw is better than War, war.
DeleteHere's hoping.
Meanwhile the Greece deal seems to be on the skids, which should send oil south tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteIt should be clear to all the negotiators that if no deal is made, separate deals will be made:
ReplyDeleteRussia for one
China for two
European business interests for three
If The deal with Greece collapses, Russia will seize advantage there and Greece will be free to make economic deals and liaisons that serve its interests. Cheap oil for Greece from Iran.
The US has discredited itself by being the valet to Israeli interests as well as heavy handedness in banking and NSA spying. I doubt there is much of an appetite for years more of useless sanctions à la Cuba.Who benefited from that failed policy?
For his next trick Mr. Obama is going to normalize relations with Vietnam. Cold War 1 is over.
DeleteYep. it's all Israel's fault...
DeleteDeuce, a broken clock used to be correct twice a day...
But you are no broken clock, you are a tape loop...
"Israel is bad"
But sorry if we just don't buy what you are peddling...
I wonder which is worse, "Israel is always bad" or "Israel is never bad". Both are extreme positions, and both are wrong.
DeleteDeuce, a broken clock used to be correct twice a day...
DeleteBut you are no broken clock, you are a tape loop...
"Israel is bad"
But sorry if we just don’t buy what you are peddling...
The Israeli firster checks in.
(IraqiNews.com) Baghdad – Iraqi Defense Ministry announced on Saturday the end of the training of pilots on the F-16, pointing out that the aircraft will arrive in Iraq during mid summer.
ReplyDeleteThe ministry spokesman, Brigadier General Yahya Rasoul, stated in an interview to the Sumerian News, “The training of pilots and technicians ended up on the F-16 aircraft,” pointing out that, “The infrastructure of the base, which will receive the the aircraft, has been completed.”
“The aircraft will arrive in Iraq during mid-summer,” Rasoul added.
The Iraqis aren't nearly as squeamish about "collateral damage" as are the Allies. 36 F-16's in their hands might be interesting.
DeleteYep, I remember how "squeamish" you are.
DeleteYou condemned Israel for striking the headcutters of Gaza and killing the human shields.
Stating: If I had lived in Gaza, I'd have joined Hamas too...
Gaza:
DeleteJuly 8 marked the somber first anniversary of the start of the 2014 summer war in Gaza, when Israel and Palestinian militants battled one another for fifty days.
The war resulted in 2,251 Palestinian deaths -- including 1,462 civilians and 551 children. More than 70 Israelis were killed, mostly soldiers involved on the assault of Gaza, according to the United Nations. The organization also reported that 18,000 houses in Gaza were destroyed or severely damaged in the conflict and 30 percent of education facilities were damaged.
One year later, much of the Gaza Strip remains in ruins. Around 120,000 people are still homeless, according to to the UN. Authorities have yet to start rebuilding hospitals, schools and even water networks, the international children's charity Save The Children reports. The UN has warned that the reconstruction process has been so slow that it could take 30 years to repair the damages done.
Israel occupies Palestinian land, using walls and checkpoints, blockades its ports, ruins its economy, withholds tens of millions of dollars of its taxes, steals its water, indiscriminately murders women and children when they rebel.
All is well in the State of Israel, its apartheid penal colony and the incubator for future terrorists and the source of its own petard.
Obviously the news from Europe is terrible, with much confusion about exactly what is happening. Here’s what I think is the story, although I haven’t done any independent reporting.
ReplyDelete1. Tsipras apparently allowed himself to be convinced, some time ago, that euro exit was completely impossible. It appears that Syriza didn’t even do any contingency planning for a parallel currency (I hope to find out that this is wrong). This left him in a hopeless bargaining position. I’m even hearing from people who should know that Ambrose Evans-Pritchard is right, that he hoped to lose the referendum, to give an excuse for capitulation.
2. But substantive surrender isn’t enough for Germany, which wants regime change and total humiliation — and there’s a substantial faction that just wants to push Greece out, and would more or less welcome a failed state as a caution for the rest.
3. I don’t know if some kind of deal might still be approved; even if it is, how long can it last?
The thing is, all the wise heads saying that Grexit is impossible, that it would lead to a complete implosion, don’t know what they are talking about. When I say that, I don’t mean that they’re necessarily wrong — I believe they are, but anyone who is confident about anything here is deluding himself. What I mean instead is that nobody has any experience with what we’re looking at. It’s striking that the conventional wisdom here completely misreads the closest parallel, Argentina 2002. The usual narrative is completely wrong: de-dollarization did *not* cause economic collapse, but rather followed it, and recovery began quite soon.
There are only terrible alternatives at this point, thanks to the fecklessness of the Greek government and, far more important, the utterly irresponsible campaign of financial intimidation waged by Germany and its allies. And I guess I have to say it: unless Merkel miraculously finds a way to offer a much less destructive plan than anything we’re hearing, Grexit, terrifying as it is, would be better.
Krugman
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/world-insider/israel-and-the-bds-campaign-separating-fact-from-propaganda/article25449750/?service=mobile
ReplyDeleteA good article on the Israel BDS campaign.
BDS is working:
DeleteBritish exports to Israel collapsed by 13.68% whilst Israeli exports to UK fell by 4.24% compared to the same period of 2014, according to official published figures from the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics.
Netanyahu government wakes up to the increasing alienation of the state in global diplomatic and trade circles as criticism mounts against Israel’s continued blockade of Gaza and the Likud government’s illegal colonisation of the Occupied Palestinian West Bank with 380,000 Israeli settlers.
The Israeli government response to the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement has been predictable. Being incapable of engaging in any reasonable form of self-criticism, Israeli leaders have turned their wrath on their accusers and their victims.
DeleteIn recent years, several entities have implemented boycotts or are considering other punitive actions in an effort to force a change in Israeli behaviour. European governments are moving to require Israel to label products originating in West Bank settlements so as to distinguish them from exports from Israel. Some US churches and pension funds have decided to divest from businesses that support the occupation. US and UK student groups have been successful in winning votes calling on their institutions to support BDS. And some academic groups and renowned scholars have indicated that they will not cooperate with events supporting or hosted by Israeli institutions in the occupied lands.
These actions are not only legitimate expressions of political concern. They are also a profoundly moral response to Israel’s behaviour. When confronted by Israel’s continued defiance of international law, its theft of Palestinian lands to construct Jewish-only settlements and its daily displays of brutality towards Palestinians, the desire to disassociate from that behaviour is the right thing to do. And when confronted by an international system that has neutered itself, refusing to act decisively to put the brakes on Israeli conduct, then the response of the BDS movement becomes even more worthy of support.
James Zogby
This is a great point about Iran's official anti-Americanism
ReplyDeleteThe US-led nuclear deal is just about Iran's nuclear program and will not resolve any of the larger issues with Iran and its relationship to the rest of the world. Still, debate about the deal has, with merit, repeatedly turned to the question of Iran's place in the Middle East. After all, the country is increasingly assertive and influential in the region — it's also by far the country whose foreign policy is most hostile toward the US and its allies.
Iran hawks say that, for this reason, any nuclear deal can only embolden and enhance Iran's menacing stature. Proponents of a deal sometimes argue that this could be an important first step toward removing the hostility between Iran and the rest of the world, thus encouraging a more conciliatory and productive Iranian foreign policy.
Both arguments almost certainly overstate the effects of this nuclear deal, but they're circling around an important question: Will Iran's hard-line anti-Western foreign policy change? Can it? And, if so, how?
The journalist Steve Coll made an insightful point about this, speaking on a podcast this week hosted by the New Yorker. He compared Iran to the Sunni Arab countries of the Middle East, which make up most of the region:
The United States faces, in the Middle East, many Sunni Arab countries with elites that are pro-American and populations that are deeply hostile, whereas in Iran it faces elites that are mostly hostile — or require hostility to maintain their power — and a population that is really ready for change.
In other words, America's Middle Eastern allies are mostly countries where authoritarian rulers impose deeply unpopular pro-American policies. Our greatest enemy is a country where authoritarian rulers impose unpopular anti-American policies. It doesn't sound like a situation that's particularly stable, either for us or for the Middle East itself, and indeed it's not.
DeleteColl made the point while discussing a recent trip to Iran during a prior year's Quds Day, the annual celebration in which hard-liners chant against Israel and America (this year's Quds Day was on Friday). He'd found that most of the attendants were not true believers "there voluntarily" but rather were "tenth graders who'd been bussed in." "Everyone wanted a selfie with the Americans," he said. "I'm sure many travelers have the same experience; this is a society that is really ready to normalize" relations with the West.
And, indeed, people who travel to Iran or know it well will often point out that, for all the anti-Western deeds and rhetoric of the regime, the population is really largely over the idea of a never-ending revolutionary struggle against the foreign devils. This is something you especially hear proponents of a nuclear deal point out as a way to argue that US-Iran relations could one day be positive, and maybe even should be.
But the flip side of that is just as true: you have, in Iran, a regime that believes its very legitimacy rests to some extent on maintaining hostility with the West. And the Iranian government has important constituencies that, while small, do earnestly believe in anti-Western policies. Those include contingents within, for example, the security agencies and the clerical establishment. Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has a history of bending to hard-liners, perhaps believing that he cannot rule without their support. This tension between Iran's anti-American elite and its more pro-normalization population is a real problem for the country's leadership, and indeed for its stability.
The comparison to Sunni Arab dictatorships is particularly apt here and should be worrisome. In, say, Jordan or Saudi Arabia, you have governing elites and security-military establishments that really like the West and see Western support as crucial for their country.
DeleteBut they rule over populations that are much more anti-American. This creates all sorts of political problems in those countries; authoritarianism is always unstable and especially so when it pursues unpopular policies. But this contradiction has managed to hold for decades. It could hold in Iran, as well.
The fact that we want authoritarian elites to be able to overrule their populations in Sunni Arab societies, but want popular opinion to reign in Iran, should not surprise anybody. If you're shocked to learn that countries prioritize their interests over their values in foreign policy, then welcome to your first day reading the news.
Still, this contradiction speaks to the larger instability of American foreign policy in the Middle East and of the status quo there. The things that make Iran's official anti-Americanism politically unviable in the long-term hold just as true in the Sunni Arab states, from Algeria to Bahrain.
Vox
Roger that.
DeleteIsrael receives more of America’s foreign aid budget than any other nation.[4] The US has, in fact, given more aid to Israel than it has to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean combined—which have a total population of over a billion people. Israel receives from US taxpayers $8.5 million per day. Which poor rural area in the US would not be radically changed with that sash inflow?
DeleteIsraelis make up 0.1% of the world’s population, yet on average, Israelis receive 7,000 times more US foreign aid per capita than all other people throughout the world.
Only the absolute level of corruption in Washington would allow this. None of these figures comes close to the real damage done to the US by Israeli policies and their manipulators in Washington.
That is only the beginning of the damage done to the US.
According to an Associated Press article 13 years old, 2002
"In France, Turkey, The Netherlands and Finland, Israeli companies have edged such U.S. firms as Raytheon, Northrop Grumman and General Atomics out of arms deals worth hundreds of millions of dollars in recent years. The irony, experts say, is that tens of billions of U.S. tax dollars and transfers of American military technology helped create and nurture Israel’s industry, in effect subsidizing a foreign competitor."
That has quadruple over the past dozen years.
Bottom Line by Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson on the huge win for the US when Iran displaces Israel:
“This is in the category with Kissinger and Nixon opening China, with Camp David under Carter, with the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt and so forth, George Bush’s reunification of Germany and retention in NATO. We have a deal here that if it’s consummated in the complexity that it will need to be by the end of June, if it’s consummated this is a deal that has win win written all over it.”
Last week, I had a meeting In Montauk Long Island, New York. It is a fabulously wealthy part of the US. After the meeting, I decided to visit a client in Corning, New York. The drive goes through the New York Catskill Mountains and many small towns that are economically broken. People drive around in small twenty year old cars and each little town has abandoned factories and by the looks of homes and neighborhoods, few good paying jobs.
DeleteA revival of rural non-farm communities , inner cities and the poor parts of Latin America would bring far more benefits to the US taxpayers and citizens than all of the wasted tribute paid to the theocratic State of Israel.
This is why the "Isis = Hamas" meme doesn't work:
ReplyDelete(IraqiNews.com) Diyala – The head of the security committee in Diyala provincial council, Sadiq al-Husseini, announced on Friday that the so-called ISIS booby-trapped and ignited an infant by remote in a training mission of its components near Sharqat northern Salahuddin.
Husseini said in an interview for IraqiNews.com, “ISIS crimes against all segments of Iraqi society have not been stopped and doesn’t exclude an elderly man or woman or even young children.”
al-Husseini added, “The available information indicate that ISIS brought a baby, the son of a civilian was executed a few weeks ago under the charges of killing ISIS militants, in one of the training camps near Sharqat northern Salahuddin”, noting that, “the organization has booby-trapped and blew up the child in front of dozens of ISIS militants by a remote.”
ISIS
It is SOP for right wing Israeli firsters to make absurd and false comparisons, distort history and events, libel, exaggerate, play the race card, slander, play the victim card, play the anti-Jew card and lie to move the Zionist cause forward. To them, liberal Jews who dare raise an objection are slimed as self-loathing Jews.
DeleteOnce again you show your bias.
DeleteISIS and Hamas are cut from the same cloth.
No distortion, just reality.
Hamas has used hundreds of babies as human shields.
DeleteISIS and Hamas are the same.
Rufus IISun Jul 12, 12:03:00 PM EDT
DeleteThis is why the "Isis = Hamas" meme doesn't work:
Interesting how you can't really tell any difference between ISIS and Hamas.
Actual The Moslem Brotherhood, the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Iranian Revolutionary Guard?
DeleteAll the same, just difference ball caps.
Deuce ☂Sun Jul 12, 12:14:00 PM EDT
DeleteIt is SOP for right wing Israeli firsters to make absurd and false comparisons
All rational and reasonable persons can see that the above groups are at war with non-islamic peoples of the world and hate Jews and Christians.
Deuce ☂Sun Jul 12, 12:14:00 PM EDT
DeleteIt is SOP for right wing Israeli firsters to make absurd and false comparisons, distort history and events, libel, exaggerate, play the race card, slander, play the victim card, play the anti-Jew card and lie to move the Zionist cause forward.
Zionism is the advocation of Jewish self determination in it's historic lands of Zion.
Those that say they are not against jews, but find Jews that seek equal rights with all other people groups are in fact bigots.
To say that ONLY Jews are not entitled to self determination is the issue..
Deuce, you say that Israel has no right to be.. But why does any arab people have that right or America for that matter?
Deny the Jews? Deny your own rights as well as the arab peoples
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DeleteYou continually talk of 'self-determination' for Israelis while ignoring the Palestinian desire for the same thing.
Sounds a little self-serving.
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DeleteYou are continually politicking for a Kurdish state even though that is something they don't want at the moment preferring autonomy instead; yet, you would deny the Palestinians a state, something they do desire.
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Quirk, the fake nationalistic, newly invented people called "palestinians" have had a chance to a nation, several times, they have refused.
DeleteA state, living in peace is still an option.
However a state, dedicated to the genocide of the Jews? Not an option.
Like it or not, the record is clear, the arabs have been offered to have a state in the lands of palestine and the offer was refused.
The moment the palestinians choose to live as a peaceful nation, regardless of their dreams of empire, they can have their state. But at present they continue to live for the extermination of Jews.
The Kurds have more of a historic claim to statehood than the palestinians.
DeleteWhat they publicly say they want is because if they claim independence? Iran and Turley will slaughter them, as they have been doing for decades
Quirk, do you deny the palestinians have refused statehood in 1948 & the years forward?
DeleteWhat stopped the palestinians in 1966 from creating a state with Jerusalem as their capital?
Maybe they are more dedicated in denying Jews the right to self determination than they are about state building?
what stopped the PA from creating and declaring a state STARTING in Gaza when Israel withdrew?
Hmm....
I know the Palestinians want it all before they can create a state...
well in that case? They will be waiting forever...
QuirkSun Jul 12, 02:50:00 PM EDT
Delete.
You continually talk of 'self-determination' for Israelis while ignoring the Palestinian desire for the same thing.
Sounds a little self-serving.
ISRAEL has offered numerous peace offers for 2 states for 2 peoples.
They have all been turned down.
self serving?
hardly.
I guess your memory has faded.
Do you not remember the numerous offers?
Land swaps?
But the palestinians want refugees to return to Israel AND A STATE.
Cant have it all....
Want a state?
Take in your people and make a state.
But don't come knocking in Israel's door demanding more.
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DeleteQuirk, do you deny the palestinians have refused statehood in 1948 & the years forward?
Technically, the Palestinians weren't offered statehood in 1948. Neither were the Jews. When the mandate ended, Israel declared a state.
What stopped the palestinians in 1966 from creating a state with Jerusalem as their capital?
Well, possibly the fact that Israel not only took their own land in 1948, they also took 60% f what was to be designated Palestinian land.
Maybe they are more dedicated in denying Jews the right to self determination than they are about state building?
No doubt they are.
I know the Palestinians want it all before they can create a state...
well in that case? They will be waiting forever...
Why doesn't Israel simply admit this in public rather than behind closed doors. Why the hypocrisy? Admit it and move on.
ISRAEL has offered numerous peace offers for 2 states for 2 peoples.
Right, the same type of offers they now stipulate as prerequisite for the Iranian nuclear agreement, total capitulation.
Do you not remember the numerous offers?
Land swaps?
No, what I remember are a gazillion 'peace negotiations' that were simply negotiations over 'process'. There have been years of negotiation over process but they never seems to get to the point of actually arguing about 'issues'. It is all one big kabuki as Israel continues to build 'facts on the ground' in terms of the settlements.
But the palestinians want refugees to return to Israel AND A STATE.
Cant have it all....
What you/they mean is 'they can't have it at all'.
The refugee situation would be the simplest issue to negotiate of all if the other issues were addressed. Israel allows a token amount in so the other side can save face. Easy peasy. No one gives a shit about the refugees outside of Palestine. The Palestinians don't. Jordon has accepted them as citizens. The rest of the Arab countries could give a shit about them. They are merely a talking point and a negotiating tool.
But face it, Israel will always come up with some reason why they can not negotiate, the recognition of a Jewish State being the latest, a poison pill dreamed up by Bibi to assure there will never be an agreement.
If you actually believe the stuff you put up here, you are a carrier of what like to call the 'Middle East Disease'.
Reason #19 why the US should have nothing to do with the ME.
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ReplyDeleteAll those dern Mexicans coming here taking our lettuce-picking jobs!
That's why a deal on immigration is so hard to get, the Dems want them for their votes and the GOP wants them for the cheap labor.
The problem is that neither side can say it.
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My side, Libertarianism, is essentially open borders. We view labor as a commodity, and so immigration quotas are basically economic restrictions. But this position must be coupled with an even more extensive form of welfare reform to be practical.
DeleteFree trade should be accompanied with free mobility of labor. To date it hasn't
Delete...
... Well, in the EU it has I believe.
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DeleteThe assumption is that 'free trade' is a good thing. If so, the question becomes, 'For who'?
It may result in lower prices but it can also be argued that it has done nothing for the average American wage wise. What is the point f diminishing returns.
I suspect you would get different answers from the multinationals getting rich off it and the guy in Podunk who just ran out of unemployment benefits.
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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S.-led forces conducted 16 air strikes in Syria and 11 more in Iraq against Islamic State forces on Saturday, the Combined Joint Task Force leading the air operations said on Sunday.
ReplyDeleteIn Syria, air strikes that were carried out using bomber, fighter-attack and drone aircraft were conducted near Al Hasakah, Ar Raqqah, Aleppo and Kobani, the statement said.
The statement said Syrian aircraft conducted air strikes within Ar Raqqah "near the time frame of coalition forces" that "were not coordinated with the coalition." The statement said the nearest air strike by U.S.-led forces to Ar Raqqa's city center was 4.2 miles (6.75 km) away and targeted four bridges.
In Iraq, air strikes using attack, fighter-attack and drone aircraft were conducted near Al Huwayjah, Bayji, Falluja, Habbaniyah, Makhmur, Ramadi, Sinjar and Tal Afar, the statement said.
(Reporting by Will Dunham; Editing by Eric Walsh)
VIENNA (AP) — Negotiators at the Iran nuclear talks plan to announce Monday that they've reached a historic deal capping nearly a decade of diplomacy that would curb the country's atomic program in return for sanctions relief, two diplomats told The Associated Press on Sunday.
ReplyDeleteThe envoys said a provisional agreement may be reached even earlier — by late Sunday. But they cautioned that final details of the pact were still being worked out. Once it is complete, a formal, final agreement would be open to review by officials in the capitals of Iran and the six world powers at the talks, they said.
Senior U.S. and Iranian officials suggested, however, there might not be enough time to reach a deal by the end of Sunday and that the drafting of documents could bleed into Monday.
All of the officials, who are at the talks in Vienna, demanded anonymity because they weren't authorized to discuss the negotiations publicly.
"We are working hard, but a deal tonight is simply logistically impossible," the Iranian official said, noting that the agreement will run roughly 100 pages.
The senior U.S. official declined to speculate as to the timing of any agreement or announcement but said "major issues remain to be resolved."
Despite the caution, the negotiators appeared to be on the cusp of an agreement.
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who on Thursday had threatened to walk away from the negotiations, said Sunday that "a few tough things" remain in the way but added "we're getting to some real decisions."
En route to Mass at Vienna's gothic St. Stephens Cathedral, Kerry said twice he was "hopeful" after a "very good meeting" Saturday with Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif, who had Muslim services Friday. The two met again early Saturday evening.
French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius also was cautiously optimistic, telling reporters Sunday: "I hope that we are finally entering the last phase of this negotiation."
In Iran, President Hassan Rouhani said an agreement was close, but not quite done, declaring: "We are still steps away from reaching the intended peak."
DeleteIn another sign that a deal could soon be sealed, Russian news agencies reported that Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov had arrived in Vienna. Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi was also expected later in the day. The other foreign ministers of the six nations negotiating with Iran already are in the Austrian capital and in position to join Kerry and Zarif for an announcement.
Movement toward a deal has been marked by years of tough negotiations. The pact is meant to impose long-term, verifiable limits on nuclear programs that Tehran could modify to produce weapons. Iran, in return, would get tens of billions of dollars in sanctions relief.
The current round of nuclear talks is now in its 16th day and has been extended three times since the first deadline of June 30 was missed. The mood among negotiators had turned more somber each time a new target date — first July 7, then July 10 and then July 13 — was set.
As the weekend approached, Kerry declared the talks couldn't go on indefinitely and warned that the U.S. could walk away from the negotiations.
Diplomats familiar with the talks said most of the nuts and bolts of implementing the deal have been agreed upon. But over the past week, issues that were previously on the back burner have led to new disputes. Among them is Iran's demand for a lifting of a U.N. arms embargo and its insistence that any U.N. Security Council resolution approving the nuclear deal be written in a way that stops describing Iran's nuclear activities as illegal.
A diplomat familiar with the negotiations said disagreements also persist on how long some of the restrictions on imports of nuclear technology and other embargos outlined in any new Security Council resolution will last. The diplomat, who demanded anonymity because the diplomat wasn't allowed to discuss the confidential talks, said restrictions will last for years, not months.
DeleteMeanwhile, Iranians were preparing to celebrate in the event of an agreement. Iran's semi-official ISNA news agency reported that deputy police chief Brigadier General Saeed Montazer al-Mahdi said the authorities are fully prepared for such celebrations.
Despite Kerry's relatively upbeat take, comments by Iran's supreme leader suggested that Tehran's mistrust of Washington would persist no matter what the outcome of the talks.
Iran's state-run Press TV cited Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on Saturday as calling the U.S. an "excellent example of arrogance." It said Khamenei told university students in Tehran to be "prepared to continue the struggle against arrogant powers."
His comments appeared to be a blow to U.S. hopes that an agreement will lead to improved bilateral relations that could translate into increased cooperation in a common cause— the fight against Islamic State radicals.
Zarif had hinted at just that last week, suggesting a deal acceptable to his country will open the door to joint efforts on that front.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, a fierce opponent of what he considers a deal that is too lenient on Tehran, said Khamenei's comments showed that Western powers are "caving" in to Iran even as the Islamic republic keeps railing against them.
A nuclear deal will also face serious scrutiny from members of Congress. Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Bob Corker said Sunday he remains skeptical about a possible deal.
"I'm concerned about where we're going," the Republican senator said on NBC's "Meet the Press."
He said lawmakers will review any agreement carefully to make sure the Iranians are held accountable and that any violations can be enforced.
Huffpost
Delete.
ReplyDeleteSaw Lindsay Graham getting a lot of kudos from Republican commentators today for his strident attack on Donald Trump.
However, it is kind of telling to note that that in his interview Lindsay didn't attack Trump for the harm he might be doing to America but rather he denigrated him for the harm he was doing to the GOP.
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ReplyDeleteQuirk, do you deny the palestinians have refused statehood in 1948 & the years forward?
Technically, the Palestinians weren't offered statehood in 1948. Neither were the Jews. When the mandate ended, Israel declared a state.
Technically?
You are full of crap.
The 1948 war was easy to understand.
The Mandate of Palestine was over, the land was to be divided between the arabs and the jews.
The Jews accepted the mandate the arabs? Refused.
Why is that so hard for you to say?
The arabs of "palestine" had numerous opportunities to create a nation, including gaza and the west bank and jerusalem up to 1967.
Unless you want to speak of egyptian and jordanian "occcupation"?
Fact is simple Quirk, Israel's policy is still 2 states for 2 peoples.
The palestinians, want all of Israel and their state, they want the right to flood israel with refugees...
To argue your falsehoods and lies? Waste of time.
Matter is simple.
The palestinians, unless they are willing to give up their right to slit the throats of Jews?, will never have a state.
So sorry...
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DeleteTo argue your falsehoods and lies? Waste of time.
And yet you do.
Fact is simple Quirk, Israel's policy is still 2 states for 2 peoples.
That might be the official word to avoid sanctions and keep the aid coming from the US but you and I both know that is not the case.
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quirk: Right, the same type of offers they now stipulate as prerequisite for the Iranian nuclear agreement, total capitulation.
ReplyDeletehardly quirk...
Olmert offered 1/2 of Jerusalem, and land swaps for the 2% of the west bank to be given 4% of Israeli land to connect gaza to the west bank...
Hardly as you call it "total capitulation". Unless you think that the palestinians should have the right to perpetual murder of Jews?
Tell us once and for all...
Do the palestinians, once they get their state, regardless of the size of that state, have to give up on murdering Jews and a greater from the river to the sea?
And is that TOTAL CAPITULATION? as you call it?
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DeleteIt was also under Olmert that the poison pill f recognition of a Jewish State was first introduced as a requirement, another indication that the Israeli's were not serious.
Do the palestinians, once they get their state, regardless of the size of that state, have to give up on murdering Jews and a greater from the river to the sea?
Of course. Yet, I look at the actions of the two sides in the year and a half before Bibi launched the Gaza ploy and come to the conclusion that given a choice between who to trust more (you can trust neither side completely) I would tend to trust the Palestinian to modify there actions after an agreement much more than I would expect Bibi to do it.
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quirk: The refugee situation would be the simplest issue to negotiate of all if the other issues were addressed. Israel allows a token amount in so the other side can save face. Easy peasy. No one gives a shit about the refugees outside of Palestine. The Palestinians don't. Jordon has accepted them as citizens. The rest of the Arab countries could give a shit about them. They are merely a talking point and a negotiating tool.
ReplyDeleteBut face it, Israel will always come up with some reason why they can not negotiate, the recognition of a Jewish State being the latest, a poison pill dreamed up by Bibi to assure there will never be an agreement.
Your memory is poor Quirk...
I suggest you read up on the subject.
Israel has made solid proposals.
The issue of the Jewish state recognition?
It's been the Jewish state since the beginning.
Maybe Israel understands how the arabs say one thing in english for the saps in the west and another in arabic for their own people...
It's really simple.
But the hatred in the arab hearts of the palestinians is so deep, they cannot give up on their blood lust....
quirk: The refugee situation would be the simplest issue to negotiate of all if the other issues were addressed. Israel allows a token amount in so the other side can save face. Easy peasy.
DeleteIsrael already has over 1.4 MILLION arabs living inside of Israel. Will the palestinians allow the jews of the west bank to live as full citizens of the newly minted Palestine? After all almost 1/2 of Israel's jews were as well refugees from the arab world...
What? Did Abu Mazen actually say that NO jews would be allowed to live anywhere in Palestine?
How nazi like of PA...
Hmm...
Refugees, Jerusalem?
I got a solution, all palestinians should live in palestine.
Like that Idea Quirk?
Should Israel throw out 1.2 MILLION arab citizens of Israel for peace?
After all, why should Israel rule over any of them?
Hmmm the sound of your hypocrisy should start to fill the page in 3,2,1,.....
go....
You want Hypocrisy?
DeleteMore than 100,000 homes were damaged or destroyed in Gaza by Israel, none have been rebuilt since the 50-day war.
See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/world/middle-east-africa/a-year-after-gaza-war-in-crumbling-homes-living-broken-lives/2/#sthash.wFxKstDk.dpuf
Hypocrisy in Spades
DeleteThere are reasons critics of the Israeli encroachments on the West Bank grab for words like “apartheid” and “Jim Crow.”
It was a scene reminiscent of one of the darkest chapters in American history: Dozens of locals were enjoying a swim in a community pool, their skin gleaming brown and olive in the sun, when suddenly white intruders arrived, accompanied by men with guns. The armed men ordered the local population out of the pool so that the white people could bathe in peace. Under threat of violence, the locals complied. The uninvited visitors descended into the cool water, untouched and unbothered by the native population.
This might have been some long-forgotten incident from the Jim Crow American South, but it happened this spring, near the West Bank municipality of Yatta, when Israeli soldiers came to the village pool and ordered the Palestinian bathers out of the water. The April 2015 incident, documented by the respected Israeli human rights group, B’tselem, was all the more striking in that it occurred in “Area A,” the 18 percent of the West Bank that is supposedly sovereign Palestinian land. (Area C, under full Israeli military control, takes up 60 percent; Area B, joint Israel-Palestinian control, the remaining 22 percent.)
Just as important, the pool incident added another stark example of aggressive Israeli settlers’ increasingly brazen and domineering treatment of Palestinians under military occupation. It is such incidents as these that bring words like “apartheid” and “Jim Crow” into the debate about the future of Israel and the Palestinians.
At a moment when the world’s attention is turned to other problems in the Middle East, the long-suffering “peace process” seems to have expired altogether. But as successive U.S. governments have recognized, it is not just the fact of settlements, it is the attitudes and actions of the settlers themselves, particularly the hard core determined to force Palestinians out of the West Bank altogether, that have helped to make the process of peacemaking all but impossible.
{...}
DeleteThe militant settlers may not represent a majority of Israeli opinion, but the steady colonization of Palestinian lands by Israel’s unrelenting settlement project, supported by numerous Israeli government incentives and backed by its army and security services, is the force that undermines a just peace again and again. That the recently reelected government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is heavily indebted to settlers for support makes the situation all that much worse.
Last month, as I traveled through the West Bank, perhaps my 15th such journey to the Holy Land over the last 20 years, the separate and unequal reality between settlers and occupied Palestinians was more stark than ever.
Twenty minutes out of Jerusalem, I look east toward Efrat, a settlement that now stretches for nearly two miles, with rows of white trailers at its southern edge— soon to be incorporated into the expanding settlement. This is what the sharp rise in recent settlement housing construction looks like on the ground.
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DeleteI recall my first trip, shortly after the Oslo Accords were signed on the White House lawn in 1993. Then barely 110,000 Israeli settlers inhabited West Bank Palestinian lands. Israel had begun to build special highways for the exclusive use of settlers and VIPs. At the time I was confused—why put these roads on lands supposedly set aside for a Palestinian state? It didn’t occur to me then that this was part of a long-range plan, despite the “peace process,” to colonize “Judea and Samaria” with heavy financial incentives for Israelis to move beyond the Green Line, thus making evacuation of the settlements ever harder.
We ride south down Highway 60, on a portion that bars West Bank Palestinians, heading toward the vineyards of Hebron grapes and the old city just beyond. For years, as an experiment, I would challenge myself to drive for an entire minute without seeing some evidence of Israel’s settlement project. Each year it became more difficult; now there’s no point to the game: 380,000 settlers inhabit the West Bank. Eighteen settlements directly surround East Jerusalem, where an estimated 300,000 more settlers live, virtually cutting off the Palestinians’ hoped-for capital from the rest of the West Bank. And the networks of checkpoints, barriers, military bases and exclusive roads, like the one we’re traveling on, are entrenched, normalized facts of life on the occupied ground. They are ostensibly a reaction to terrorism by Palestinian groups, but even when violent resistance subsides, the occupation tightens its grip.
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DeleteDISGUSTED YET?
There is nothing subtle or normalized about the grim separation in the old city of Hebron. Here in H-2, a portion of Hebron where 1,500 soldiers protect some 500 settlers in a city of 170,000 Palestinians, steel nets rise above the old Arab market to protect vendors from the debris—bottles, bags of feces, metal objects, plastic chairs—that the settlers hurl down from above. The enmity here dates back to at least 1929, when Palestinians massacred Jews in riots sparked by European Jewish emigration to Palestine. Many of the Jewish survivors credited other Palestinians with saving their lives, and generations later, their descendants pointed out that today’s extremist settlers, many from Brooklyn, have no connection to the families of 1929. They called for removal of the Hebron settlements.
Instead, under the H-2 agreement, part of the “peace process” and signed by the Palestinian Authority, some 120 military checkpoints divide Palestinians from settlers. The once-bustling Shuhada Street has been closed by the army, and shopkeepers’ doors welded shut; some of the residents who used to passed through these shops to get home in this hilly city must now use ladders or ropes. Nearby, we saw 16-foot-high concrete slabs wedged into a long-trodden path between a 92-year-old imam’s home and his mosque; now he must walk nearly a mile. Just beyond, the army declared a play area for Palestinian children off limits. As we walked past it, we gazed at long parallel white lines in the asphalt. The place is now a parking lot for settler buses.
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DeleteTwo hundred meters away, we pass through two heavily fortified checkpoints, finally entering the Ibrahimi Mosque, also known as the Cave of the Patriarchs, where 60 percent of the mosque has become a synagogue. A pile of plastic rugs marks the entrance to accommodate Israeli officials who may enter the mosque at any time, but who refuse to remove their shoes. Hence mosque attendants place the rugs along their path, so as to preserve the mosque’s sanctity.
A journey to the West Bank (to say nothing of Gaza) is, for me, always a sobering re-acquaintance with the actual facts on the ground. Over the years, my many months in a would-be Palestine have revealed a complex system of domination and confinement. Random decisions by an occupying army seal buildings shut, erect “surprise” blockades in the road, and evict village swimmers from their own pool. On average, here, one Palestinian child has died every three to four days for the last 14 years. Here, youths as young as 14 who throw stones against the occupation can go to prison for 20 years. Here, one population sits in hilltop homes, protected by one of the worlds’ most advanced armies, while the other is subjected to frequent night raids by that army—so much so that 40 percent of the adult male population has spent time in prison. In this system, one people’s religion and special yellow license plates zip them through the fast lane at checkpoint kiosks, while the other must wait, sometimes for hours, submitting to humiliating inspection of their documents while snipers watch their every move. Here, one people’s “Civil Administration” can suddenly declare the other people’s town to be a historic archeological site, prompting the authorities to evict all the villagers, who move into tents nearby. Here, officials segregated the bus lines, recalling the struggles for civil rights in the American South, before an international furor forced them to hastily withdraw their plans.
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DeleteIt is not for no reason that comparisons to apartheid and Jim Crow have become more common.
Against these facts, it is dizzying to consider the accusations of bias, double standards, and even anti-Semitism lodged by Israel’s staunchest defenders against critics of such behavior. “We are in the midst of a great struggle being waged against the state of Israel,” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in May, accusing critics of casting Israel as “the focus of all evil in the world.” Two weeks later, billionaire Sheldon Adelson, the bankroller of settlements, of Netanyahu, of the right-wing free newspaper that is now the most popular in Israel, and of numerous Republican presidential candidates, convened a closed meeting of donors in his Las Vegas casino. The group reportedly raised at least $20 million, much of it to fight the “delegitimization” of Israel by its critics, especially the growing BDS (boycott, divestment, sanctions) movement.
Weighed against reality, one wonders how long before these accusations of bias and anti-Semitism will be seen as anything but a desperate deflection strategy by wealthy, disconnected billionaires and their hired political charges in Tel Aviv, Washington, and throughout the entire Republican presidential primary field. (The latest: Donald Trump, who modestly declares that “no one but Donald Trump will save Israel.”)
Yet no matter how entrenched it may seem, no matter how well funded its instruments of distraction, a system such as Israel’s domination of the Palestinians cannot stand indefinitely. Palestinians, with none of Israel’s firepower or its influence with Washington, are now making inroads with the international community. The Palestinian Authority’s unilateral move to achieve statehood in the United Nations now has the support of 138 nations. Its membership in the International Criminal Court could lead to war crimes charges against Israel. These, along with its threats, however hollow, to suspend joint security cooperation in the West Bank, are all efforts to pressure Israel into ending the occupation.
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DeleteThe greater momentum, however is with the campaign of nonviolent direct confrontation of Israel by Palestinian civil society and its international supporters. The BDS campaign has made significant symbolic gains in recent years, as scientists including Stephen Hawking, artists like Roger Waters and Lauryn Hill, European trade unions, and religious groups like the Presbyterian Church USA, have chosen to observe a cultural or academic boycott of Israel, or to divest of companies like Caterpillar, maker of Israeli bulldozers that raze Palestinian houses and olive groves. BDS now represents “a strategic threat of the first order,” according to Israeli President Reuven Rivlin. At this point the threat is in BDS’s moral challenge to Israel, rather than its economic clout. Yet maintaining the status quo, a Rand Corporation analysis recently declared, is costing Israel $15 billion per year, while an end to the occupation and a resolution to the conflict could provide an additional benefit, to Israelis and Palestinians, of $173 billion over 10 years.
In the end, however, it is not money, but a sense of moral power that is fueling the Palestinian nonviolent resistance. “They are so worried because the BDS is causing moral harm,” Mustafa Barghouti, an opposition leader and a founder of BDS, told me. “It is exposing Israel as a system of Apartheid. And that’s what they are unhappy with.”
At times it seems hard to picture another system replacing the existing one, entrenched as it is. But just north of Hebron, on our way back to Jerusalem, we were afforded a glimpse of the “viable, contiguous” Palestine that the “peace process” has purported to seek. There, amid the nearly unrelenting view of settlements, military surveillance towers, and dividing barriers, the landscape suddenly opened up, revealing long fields of Hebron vineyards, their grapes nearly ready for the market. On the other side of the road, stepped stone terraces of dusky green olives, marching silently up the hillside. Then, a whitewashed village imbedded in a valley, the minaret of its mosque shining in the sunlight, its call to prayer echoing into the hills.
HYPOCRISY ISRAELI STYLE
DeleteThe truth about Israeli apartheid practices in Israel defies description. Every real American should be disgusted with the Israeli government and the citizens of Israel who support it and the US political class that has sold out on any pretense of American values. BDS is the only answer.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/07/israel-and-palestine-not-so-separate-deeply-unequal.html
DeleteMade in Israel
DeleteNo thanks.
Deuce, please start with your computer and cell phones.
DeleteAnd of course, please do not avail yourself of any Israeli medical innovations.
otherwise you are a hypocrite.
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DeleteThe issue of the Jewish state recognition?
It's been the Jewish state since the beginning.
The two don't mesh. Israel may in fact have been a de facto Jewish state from the beginning but recognition of Israel as a Jewish State was not a negotiating point until 2007 when raised by Olmert. The fact is that the PA has recognized Israel as a state and that it has a right to exist for over 20 years now. That is all any state should be required to do. As a matter of fact, t is more than any other state demands. Do you see any references to the US' right to exist? France? Zimbabwe? Brazil? Hell no. And don't even start to talk of a Palestinian State's right to exist. About 135 states recognize the Palestinian state. However, if they try to act like a state look out, the full weight of Israel and the US comes down on them. The US uses its veto power, countries supporting the Palestinians are bullied and threatened, UN agencies including those supporting children are cut off from US aid, all Palestinian aid is cut off, Israel withholds tax funds, etc.
There is no Palestinian state according the Israelis only a Palestinian presence. During the myriad 'peace negotiations' any Israeli documents specifically mentioning a Palestinian State are sorely hard to come by. They may mention a two-state, land swaps, what the PA and/or Israel agree to do on an interim basis, but they never actually get to the point where they are putting down ANYTHING on a final document.
Over and above this, they now insist that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish State, one final poison pill to assure there is no agreement.
Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Iran, Qatar, may all be de facto Muslim countries but we sure as hell don't recognize them as such. Why would any Western country do so? We recognize them as independent states. Why should Israel be any different?
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DeleteIsrael already has over 1.4 MILLION arabs living inside of Israel. Will the palestinians allow the jews of the west bank to live as full citizens of the newly minted Palestine? After all almost 1/2 of Israel's jews were as well refugees from the arab world...
What? Did Abu Mazen actually say that NO jews would be allowed to live anywhere in Palestine?
How nazi like of PA...
Hmm...
Here were Abbas words in July, 2013 in the middle of the so-called 'peace negotiations'. He made them within the context of the security demands Israel was making for any final settlement. In truth, he had been saying the same thing since at least 2010 but suddenly they became a big deal.
Here is the JP commenting on the words at the time.
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Abbas-wants-not-a-single-Israeli-in-future-Palestinian-state-321470
Now, I have seen a lot of commentators in Jewish journals saying he said that there would be no Jews allowed in Palestine but I have not seen it myself. However, here is an article in the Times of Israel which details the Palestinian position on Jews in the new Palestinian state. It is from 2014.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-yes-to-jews-no-to-settlers-in-our-state/
Israel already has over 1.4 MILLION arabs living inside of Israel. Will the palestinians allow the jews of the west bank to live as full citizens of the newly minted Palestine?
I think the Times of Israel article answers that question.
However, I have to laugh at the implication behind that question. It seems to presume that Arab Israelis have the same rights as Jewish Israelis. Why because they can vote? Jews in Iran can vote and they do. The original Ayatollah, one of the first things he did when he came to power was issue a fatwa guaranteeing their rights. Did the same for Christians and other minorities. Surely, you are not comparing Israel to Iran.
The very name Jewish State tells you it is bifurcated system, one for Jews and one for non-Jews.
Now, it you want to get into the real reasons Bibi asked for recognition as a Jewish State, we can get into it but I don't think you would like my answers.
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DeleteSorry, I left out Abbas' actual words from 2013.
After
In truth, he had been saying the same thing since at least 2010 but suddenly they became a big deal.
above, it should have read
“In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli — civilian or soldier — on our lands,” Abbas said following a meeting with interim Egyptian President Adly Mansour in Cairo.
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The assumption is that 'free trade' is a good thing. If so, the question becomes, 'For who'?
ReplyDeleteYour neighbor running his clothes dryer on your circuit is a bad thing, but the question becomes, "For who?"
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DeleteSophistry, irrelevant and ultimately non-responsive.
IMO
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Then ask yourself, what is the opposite of free trade, when wealth creators are ultimately machines subject to laws of thermodynamics like any other? It is friction generated by regulations and wealth-transfers. It is parasitical line-losses. Surely you can't assent to the canard that wealth is comprised entirely of the markers the government prints to exchange it?
Delete.
DeleteI'll admit it. When I first read this I didn't quite understand it. After walking the dogs, I came back and read it again. Now, I know what you are saying but i still don't understand it.
Whereas your first comment was sophistry, this one is just plane batshit crazy.
I've sent a note to The Donald asking him to surrender his 'great big clown shoes' to you.
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Deuce ☂Sun Jul 12, 09:20:00 PM EDT
ReplyDeleteYou want Hypocrisy?
More than 100,000 homes were damaged or destroyed in Gaza by Israel, none have been rebuilt since the 50-day war.
But Hamas is bragging the tunnels are rebuilt as well as the rockets...
HMMMM....
ISIS is Hamas.
embrace it.
IDF is a murdering brood of swine
ReplyDeleteembrace it - see the next post.