Russia won’t extradite Snowden to US – Kremlin
Published time: July 26, 2013 11:53
Edited time: July 26, 2013 12:58
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Moscow says security agency FSB is in talks with the FBI over Snowden. But whistleblower will not be extradited to the US, a Kremlin spokesman said, adding he is sure the fugitive NSA contractor will stop harming the US if granted asylum in Russia.
Moscow says security agency FSB is in talks with the FBI over Snowden. But whistleblower will not be extradited to the US, a Kremlin spokesman said, adding he is sure the fugitive NSA contractor will stop harming the US if granted asylum in Russia.
“Russia has never extradited anyone, and will not extradite,” said Vladimir Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov.
Russian President is not handling the case of the former CIA employee Edward Snowden, as “Snowden has not made any request that is subject to consideration by the head of the state,” added Peskov.
The issue of Snowden asking for temporary asylum “was not and is not on Putin’s agenda,” Peskov said, adding that it lies in the sphere of the countries’ security agencies.
Head of the FSB Aleksandr Bortnikov and FBI Chief Robert Muller are engaged in the discussion over Snowden, Putin’s spokesman said.
Responding to the question whether the former NSA contractor will continue harming the US by leaking classified materials while in Russia, and if the situation is going to undermine Moscow’s ties with Washington, Peskov stressed that “the head of state has expressed strong determination not to allow this,” referring to Putin’s statements earlier.
“I have no doubt that this will be the case, no matter how the situation develops,” the spokesman added.
Meanwhile, the US Senate threatened Thursday that it might impose sanctions against any country that provides asylum to Snowden, including revocation or suspension of trade privileges and preferences.
The 30-year-old Snowden has been stripped of his US passport, and is wanted by the United States on espionage charges for carrying out one of the biggest security leaks in the American history.
The NSA leaker has been stuck in Moscow’s Sheremetyevo Airport since his arrival from Hong Kong, and remains there while his asylum plea is being reviewed by Russian immigration authorities.
The NSA leaker has been stuck in Moscow’s Sheremetyevo Airport since his arrival from Hong Kong, and remains there while his asylum plea is being reviewed by Russian immigration authorities.
His request followed weeks of searching for a way to leave the country, which he had intended to pass through only briefly on his way to another destination.
Russian President is not handling the case of the former CIA employee Edward Snowden, as “Snowden has not made any request that is subject to consideration by the head of the state,” added Peskov.
The issue of Snowden asking for temporary asylum “was not and is not on Putin’s agenda,” Peskov said, adding that it lies in the sphere of the countries’ security agencies.
Head of the FSB Aleksandr Bortnikov and FBI Chief Robert Muller are engaged in the discussion over Snowden, Putin’s spokesman said.
Responding to the question whether the former NSA contractor will continue harming the US by leaking classified materials while in Russia, and if the situation is going to undermine Moscow’s ties with Washington, Peskov stressed that “the head of state has expressed strong determination not to allow this,” referring to Putin’s statements earlier.
“I have no doubt that this will be the case, no matter how the situation develops,” the spokesman added.
Meanwhile, the US Senate threatened Thursday that it might impose sanctions against any country that provides asylum to Snowden, including revocation or suspension of trade privileges and preferences.
The 30-year-old Snowden has been stripped of his US passport, and is wanted by the United States on espionage charges for carrying out one of the biggest security leaks in the American history.
The NSA leaker has been stuck in Moscow’s Sheremetyevo Airport since his arrival from Hong Kong, and remains there while his asylum plea is being reviewed by Russian immigration authorities.
The NSA leaker has been stuck in Moscow’s Sheremetyevo Airport since his arrival from Hong Kong, and remains there while his asylum plea is being reviewed by Russian immigration authorities.
His request followed weeks of searching for a way to leave the country, which he had intended to pass through only briefly on his way to another destination.
In the video above, Rep Holt makes an interesting allegation. He claims that the FISA Court and The Patriot Act were passed to give legal cover for what were illegal ongoing activities by the government in response to the 911 attacks.
ReplyDeleteAll that was understandable at the time. He says it was a time of great fear. People react differently at times of great peril and during times of unknown but credible threats,
The congressman makes as much sense as anyone I have heard on this subject. Watch this video, it is about as good as it gets on the entire Patriot Act/Fisa/NSA/Snowden affair.
Russia never extradites anyone.
ReplyDeleteThey starve to death millions of their own...
They murder 100,000's of other's with ease....
Russia had the highest number of abortions per woman of child-bearing age in the world according to UN data of 2004.
Majority of fake Jewish in Palestine that have abortions? Russians... (not a REAL Jewish soul among them)
Which part of Palestine are these fake Jews from Russia residing?
DeleteThe Israeli part, just like you say...
DeleteThe only REAL Jews are the 51% of the Jews that were ethnically driven to Israel from the arab lands and of course the 25% of the Jews that always lived there.
Just using YOUR logic to discuss it with you..
BTW, those Arabs that are now living in Dearborn, MI? You know the ones, that America is helping occupy Native American lands?
They need to be expelled to Arabia, after they are just a arab colony in the "americas"
Once again,quot is spreading propaganda and telling lies.
DeleteHe tells us that it is the Russian immigrants that drive the numbers of Jews murdered with subsidies by the secular government of Israel. He is not relating the truth.
Speaking only of legal abortions and immigration patterns from Russia to Isael, the truth becomes obvious.
As to Russian immigrants ...
Between 1948 and October 1992, 2,279,179 Jewish immigrants arrived in Israel. Russian Jews accounted for nearly 27 percent of this total. (64 percent of the Russian Jews have arrived since January 1990). Approximately 14.4 percent of all Jews living in Israel in 1992 come from various parts of the former Soviet Union. [4]
Russian Jewish immigrants today are not, by and large, concerned with Zionist or ideological motives. In comparison with the immigrants of the 1970s who were “pulled” by Israel, the immigrants of the 1990s were “pushed” by the situation in the Soviet Union and the difficulty of immigrating to North America.
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer182/russian-jewish-immigration-future-israeli-palestinian-conflict
The secular Israeli government began the subsidies for murder in 1979, well before the immigration wave of Russians in the 1990's.
In 1979 the secular Israeli government sanctioned the murder of 15,925, an abortion percentage of 14.5%
In 1995, in the midst of the Russian influx, that number was 17,627, an abortion percentage of 13.1%
In 2000 the number was 19,405, or 12.5%
2010, the number was 19,531, or 10.5%
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-israel.html
It is obvious, by a perusal of the facts, that it was not an influx of Russians that was the driving factor in the murder of Jews, financed by the secular state of Israel.
Once again reality demolishes the propaganda themes spouted by our in house AIPAC mouth piece.
He is still in denial of the reality of secular Israel.
Your grasp of data is amazing, reminds me of a 4th grader doing logic problems
DeleteA cat as a tail, a kite has a tail so a cat is a kite.
In one breathe you claim that Israel is a european colony and the jews are fraud.
In another breathe you claim the Jew are authentic and murder their own.
In one breathe you act like you want to pursue truth.
and in the other you claim to have private AZ FBI information that you spread on this blog concerning national security and me.
One can only wonder what lies within that hard peanut sized brain you have...
LOL
Now go google some more so called facts and post them....
Question Rat, do you ever do anything productive in life?
Besides lie, distort and mislead people?
I have lots or varied, productive, pursuits.
DeleteThis is a hobby that I enjoy, disabusing the propaganda of totalitarians.
Again, you can provide no data points, no references, you just spout worn out propaganda themes that are easily debunked.
I do believe debunking Israeli propaganda is productive.
Moves the policy debate forward, to uncover the truth and debunk the Goebbels style propaganda spouted by AIPAC shills
Besides, when queried about why those Russians moving to Israel under the "Right of Return" were not "real" Jews, quot refused to answered.
DeleteNow he tells us that those Russians are not real Jews, though they were considered so under Israel's "Right of Return" policies.
Perhaps now he will tell us why the secular sate of Israel opens the doors to Russians of undetermined religion, but not Syrian Christians attempting to escape slaughter perpetrated by Wahhabi extremists.
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ReplyDeleteDidn't see the video yet but it reflects the pattern of the last decade.
In the 2005 renewal of the Patriot Act, Congress retroactively authorized widespread data mining that Bush had been illegally conducting for years previously both to cover his ass as well as AT&T and other carriers.
If Snowden hadn't gone public Congress would have done nothing although anyone paying attention would have known what was going on.
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They may not extradite, but they exile a lot -- to cold Siberia.
ReplyDeleteSnowden's going to need to get himself one of those fur hats, and a pretty Moscowan girlfriend (there are plenty available, I have read), keep himself sober, and he'll be just fine.
Trust me, a young guy spending a couple of years in today’s Russia will be no hardship.
DeleteThe Russian women are going to fall all over this guy, like wolves.
Delete:)
Any secret organization, established for the best of reasons, always evolves into a mental, psychological, cynical and eventually pathological entity:
ReplyDeleteUs against them.
Them keeps expanding.
Everyone outside the organization is either an enemy or naive to the threat.
The threats cast shadows everywhere.
What are we missing?
The money, the sex, the drugs......but they will be along soon enough....
DeleteThese European Russians are also good at setting up colonies around about. Had a lot of them in Eastern Europe for a while. Now, in the mid-east, they have set up the European Colony of Israel. That is why the Russians back in Mother Russia were always backing Israel in all these wars, just as they are doing in Syria to this very day. And look how they have stood strong for Israel in the Iran flap.
ReplyDeleteIsrael is just a Russian Colony.
Jeez, what in hell did I just say? Not awake yet. Sounds like rat think to me. I'm rubbing my eyes.
DeleteIDF Nabs Palestinian Suspected of Firing at Israeli Buses in West Bank - Gili Cohen
ReplyDeleteA Palestinian resident of the West Bank village of Awarta, suspected of shooting at buses in the West Bank, was arrested Thursday by the Israel Defense Forces. According to Col. Yoav Yarom, commander of the Samaria Regional Brigade, two soldiers have been posted on buses traveling in the area for the past three weeks in an effort to identify the gunmen responsible for firing at Israeli buses. An IDF soldier riding a bus near Hawara saw the Palestinian aiming a handgun at the bus. (Ha'aretz)
See also 15 Israelis Injured in Arab Rock Attacks in Jerusalem - Lazar Berman
Fifteen Israelis were injured in Jerusalem on Thursday in two separate rock-throwing incidents by Arabs at vehicles driving past the Damascus Gate near the Old City. (Times of Israel)
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Yes, you read that correctly - rock attacks, not rocket attacks.
Many have been injured and killed in rocket attacks too.
LINCOLN MEMORIAL VANDALIZED
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I visited the Lincoln Memorial. No matter how one feels about Lincoln it is quite impressive. Sort of hushed holy feel to the place.
I take that back. The Lincoln place we visited was in Illinois, this seems to be in D.C. and we have never been there.
DeleteIt is amazing what you can do with cold stone.
ReplyDeleteYou could crush it to aggregate and use it for a French drain or carve it to a monument to some mythical hero.
ReplyDelete>>>Why doesn’t GM bailout Detroit?
ReplyDeleteJul 26, 2013 8:01 AM by Bruce McQuain
47 Comments »
Because using taxpayer money to create jobs in China is more important<<<
Now there's a thought.
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DeleteThe government has said they are not bailing out Detroit.
Currently, with their reduced stake in GM, the US would need to get over $95 per share on their remaining GM stock to break even (cashwise) on the investment.
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"Now there's a thought."
DeleteBut evidently not a very good one.
Better to just "sell off" the art collection, even if Detroit doesn't own it.
Delete>>>>>So let's do the arithmetic: of the 14,612 murders in the U.S. in 2011, about 7,656 were committed by blacks and another 4,380 were committed by illegal aliens. That leaves 2,576 committed by non-black people who are here legally.
ReplyDeleteIn round numbers, there are about 250 million non-blacks in the U.S. legally. So their murder rate is about 1.0 per 100,000, or the same as Sweden's.
A murder rate of 1.0 is in the same league as the Europeans who like to call us gun-crazy cowboys. But it's not the "cowboys" who are doing the killing.
(In fact, Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wyoming have murder rates significantly lower than the U.S. average. Texas itself is close to average. Illinois, the last state to allow concealed carry and the only state to require a special ID to purchase either guns or ammunition, has an above average rate.)<<<<<
July 26, 2013
Murder Most Swedish
Randall Hoven
Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/07/murder_most_swedish.html#ixzz2a6V8WzFq
>>>>"(By the way, please spare me any "Hoven thinks all blacks are murderers" talk. The statistics say that 99.98% of blacks did not commit murder in 2011. When looking at murderers, we are looking at a very tiny slice of the population, regardless of race. It is unwise to extrapolate much of anything about a population based on how 0.02% of it behaves.)<<<<
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DeleteOh, I'm not accusing you of anything except reading American Thinker.
Bad enough.
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ReplyDeleteThe resurgence of al-Qaeda and easy to target Ramadan social events helped push July to be the deadliest month in 2013.
Al Jazeera staff Last Modified: 24 Jul 2013 19:22
Violence in Iraq is rampant, and is getting worse. Numbers vary (depending on the sources used) of the mostly civilian victims that fell in the recent spike of suicide bombings and other acts of violence, but all counts point to a similarly grim conclusion. The violence takes place within the context of a civil war in Syria and divisive political crisis that is separating the country around sectarian and ethnic lines.
In this deadly context, few can claim innocence, and no one is immune. Using figures provided by AFP and information supplied by our Iraq correspondent, Jane Arraf, Al Jazeera looks into the intensifying violence in Iraq, the possible perpetrators, and reasons behind it.
Source: Al Jazeera and agencies
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2013/07/2013724141933455196.html
You need some accurate information, not about George Zimmerman, there is The Guardian, The Independent, Telegraph, Al Jazeera and RT.
ReplyDeleteI'm a sensitive man. It always hurts me when people use the term 'vandalize'. Doesn't anyone realize how hurtful this is the people of nordic descent? I feel it is a hate crime, a violation of human rights, a kind of racism where one group is singled out as being to blame for all the property damage, and human damage too, that occurs around. I even had to use that awful term 'criminal vandalism' in a police report the other day, and in a court filing. It was an awful and degrading experience.
ReplyDeleteHere is but the most recent example -
Delete>>>>The Lincoln Memorial… vandalized?!
POSTED AT 9:04 AM ON JULY 26, 2013 BY ERIKA JOHNSEN
…Who does that?
The Lincoln Memorial was shut down Friday morning after unknown vandals splashed the statue of the nation’s 16th president, and the marble floor around it, with green paint, U.S. Park Police said.
Police are reviewing surveillance footage from the popular tourist attraction on the west end of the Mall, but so far have released no information about who may have been responsible.
Authorities believe the vandalism happened around 1:30 a.m. The National Park Service will work to clean up the paint, police said, and the memorial will be closed to the public until cleanup is complete.<<<<
"Erika" Johnsen feels just as I do, and is brave enough to speak up, wonderful woman.
Delete.
DeleteYou nitwit, the Vandals were from East Germany.
You should be more concerned about references to Viking pillage and rape or, some would argue, Klingon interstellar rampage.
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boobie is geographically challenged.
DeleteHe still thinks Hawaii is in the Americas.
Good to know we have a Vandal in our midst.
ReplyDeleteI instinctively dislike art, painting or statuary larger than the subject itself be it man, beast or fruit. Statuary over life size is vulgar and fascistic. That hulking monster size of Lincoln brooding on a throne does not belong in a democratic republic. It is an authoritarian relic belonging to a society with subjects to their master, masters who add a foot or two, with each passing generation to the tribute to the great killers of history.
ReplyDeleteIn this I agree with you. Good observation.
DeleteI'd make one exception to this rule - the new over sized statue of Chief Joseph at the Casino, with his words about 'from where the sun stands in the sky today, I will fight no more forever', an over sized statue I really like.
Delete.
DeleteI find it a little interesting that despite the simplicity of the Buddhist believe system, the largest statuary in the world are of Buddha.
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Delete“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings./Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!”
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>>>>Tell General Howard I know his heart. What he told me before, I have it in my heart. I am tired of fighting. Our chiefs are killed; Looking Glass is dead, Too-hul-hul-sote is dead. The old men are all dead. It is the young men who say yes or no. He who led on the young men is dead. It is cold, and we have no blankets; the little children are freezing to death. My people, some of them, have run away to the hills, and have no blankets, no food. No one knows where they are—perhaps freezing to death. I want to have time to look for my children, and see how many of them I can find. Maybe I shall find them among the dead. Hear me, my chiefs! I am tired; my heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.[10]<<<<
Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Joseph
The popular legend deflated, however, when the original pencil draft of the report was revealed to show the handwriting of the later poet and lawyer Lieutenant Charles Erskine Scott Wood, who claimed to have taken down the great chief's words on the spot. In the margin it read, "Here insert Joseph's reply to the demand for surrender"[11][12] Although Joseph was not technically a war chief and probably did not command the retreat, many of the chiefs who did had died. His speech brought attention – and therefore credit – his way. He earned the praise of General William Tecumseh Sherman and became known in the press as "The Red Napoleon".
wiki
Now, boobie, you are denouncing Judea-Christianity?
DeleteOr just the Bible?
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
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DeleteStatuary is not my favorite type of artwork but size is not a determining factor on whether I like a piece of art or not.
Speaking of art brings to mind an interesting factoid involving Goya's Naked Maja. Back in the 30's, Spain approved two new stamps representing Goya's paintings, both the naked and the clothed versions. However, the U.S. government refused to accept mail stamped with the naked version.
Values and tastes change.
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A more accurate portrayal would be 3/4 size of Lincoln getting hosed by one of his orderlies.
ReplyDeleteI’ll bet he was one whimpering groveling bitch.
ReplyDeleteThere should be a monument to the hundreds of thousands of Americans wounded and killed and to those millions who’s lives were ruined by this incompetent authoritarian politician. Instead, we have this gargantuan grandiose monstrosity for generations of school children to be brain washed in government schools about the majesty of a great man that never was.
ReplyDeleteThere should be a monument to the hundreds of thousands wounded and killed by slavery, and those millions whose lives were utterly ruined by the same institution of slavery. As a reminder, and warning to us all not to ever again allow any American group to ever get in that situation again.
ReplyDeleteA very nice little primer (short) on "energy, economy, growth, and debt" - well worth the couple of minutes to read:
ReplyDeleteConsumption/energy, and the economy - basic principles and feed-back loops
also has a couple of pretty, little informative charts :)
DeleteStatue of Chief Joseph
ReplyDeletehttp://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/06/04/nez-perce-unveil-chief-joseph-statue-149711
Horace Axtell is an acquaintance of mine, and a very nice man.
Also:
http://news.nativeamericanencyclopedia.com/post/52216065456/nez-perce-unveil-chief-joseph-statue-a-major
Can't find a full toe to head top picture, but at the bottom it has a plaque with his quote.
Except there were not hundreds of thousands and millions of lives ruined by slavery. As bizarre as it sounds to us in our more enlightened age, slaves were property, a valued part of a society where money exchange was more rare than today. Slaves were bought as freely in markets as one would buy a nice new Ford F 150. It is illogical that the first thing that you would do to expensive newly acquired property, property purchased with hard and scare currency, is to injure “it” and kill “it”.
ReplyDeleteThe slaves were bought in slave markets in Africa by Europeans. The Europeans went to Africa, like coffee buyers go to Columbia. Columbia is where they grow coffee. Africa is where slavery was an ancient part of African culture. One African tribe would capture another tribe and instead of just killing them, they did an economic calculation and sold them. Kill them or sell them, what is a good businessman to do?
The Europeans prior to colonialism went along to get along. Hey, if you’r selling, I’m buying.
The middlemen knew that there was a capital and manpower shortage in America. They did not need armed ships to attack Africans, they needed storage capacity on the ships. When the European ship’s sails were scene entering African waters, people didn’t flee in terror, they welcomed them but did not take American Express. Hard currency and trade was the game.
The luckier of the unlucky were sold to go to America. Their fate in being sold to Africans or Arabians was far less fortunate.
That was the way it was for hundreds of generations. Nothing personal Alfredo, just business. Like most things in human history, they change. Slavery ended in Europe and through the nineteenth century ended in every country in all of the Americas. One country, under one man, could not do it peacefully. It was beyond his political skills. He killed and wounded over a million Americans. He impoverished the South with his psychopathic killer generals and this made the lives of the freed slaves more miserable than it need to have been.
"Except there were not hundreds of thousands and millions of lives ruined by slavery."
DeleteGood Grief!!
You make it sound as if being a piece of 'valued property' is a wonderful thing.
Why would they risk death then, some of them, to head north?
Ever see the pictures of the whip marks?
The hangings of the 'rebellious'?
The families broken up?
Of being worked to death?
The medical care?
The living huts?
The fine dining?
The conditions on the slave ships coming across the ocean?
The fine educational institutes for the enslaved?
"If you ever have a choice of being a slave, or being a serf, by all means be a serf."
Dinesh d'Souza
The fine parks and playgrounds and toys for the black kids?
DeleteThe fine clothing, the comfortable shoes - nature's best, barefoot. The cozy comfy corn cob bedding.
DeleteGood Grief!
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DeleteI have to agree with the Wizard of ID on this one.
I remember reading that the Mexican drug cartels used to keep sending boatloads, planes, drug mules, etc. in a constant stream north to America. If they lost a shipment (can't remember if they were losing 12% or 20%), no big deal. It was the cost of doing business and they were getting rich on what did get through.
With the slavers, they stuffed their ships with as many slaves as they possibly could. When a lot of them inevitably died, it was no big deal, dump them over the side, just the cost of doing business.
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Those were the days my friends. It was no picnic for the poor whites either . Care to guess the percentage of white Southerners that were actual slave holders.
DeleteNah, what fun is that?
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DeleteIrrelevant.
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John Hope Franklin, Harvard graduate, Professor Emeritus of History and Professor of Legal History at Duke University, black man and author: From Slavery to Freedom, McGraw-Hill, 1994., p. 123:
DeleteLess than 5% of the whites in the South owned slaves. Fully 3/4’s of the white people of the South had neither slaves nor an immediate economic interest in the maintenance of slavery or the plantation system.
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DeleteIf addressed to me, my response is
Irrelevant
at least to the subject at hand, the rationalization of slavery.
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Let’s do the math:
Delete300,000 white Southerners, 95% of which did not own slaves, died to keep that which they did not own while, 300,000 mostly white northerners, who in the majority probably hated and despised the blacks, died to free them. Who believes this stuff.
I can picture the scene. A recruiter goes into a Bower slum rounding up Irish Volunteers to join the army to free black slaves. That would have raised at least a company and a half.
I am not rationalizing slavery. It is bad enough in its own right without the drama and the myth making. All those young men that were drafted on both sides were slaves as well. If they deserted, they were hunted down and hanged or shot. They worked for nothing, ate crap food and lived in squalid conditions. They were not allowed to go or do anything on their own. They had their masters and could be whipped for insubordination. They were the times.
DeleteSimply stated, Lincoln took a bad situation and made it worse, far, far, worse. Lincoln failed where every other leader in North and South America succeeded. They ended slavery without getting hundreds and hundreds of thousands killed and wounded.
DeleteLincoln could not “free” the slaves without enslaving others to fight his war. He could not raise the army with volunteers. The people did not want his war but like every other ruthless authoritarian, Lincoln would kill by the hundreds of thousands to enforce his rule.
It make me sick to hear some weepy misty eyed reading of his Gettysburg Address. He probably got one whiff of the unimaginable disaster of his making, wretched, ditched his prepared speech, scribbled his nonsense on an envelope and got back to DC with a perfumed hankie over his nose.
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DeleteYou mix your messages. Everyone here is aware of your contempt for Lincoln and the war. But using slavery as an excuse for that contempt on the basis of 'gee whiz mom they do it in Africa' is just plain silly.
Bob and I both were responding to this meme Nothing personal Alfredo, just business
which makes up much of the substance of your post above that led to this stream of replies. Sounds like something out of a gangster movie where the hitman tells the victim, "Nothing personal Alfredo, just business".
While it is understood that slavery was a product of the times, there is no rationalizing or excusing that which can't be excused on any basis.
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DeleteI am no expert on Lincoln, not even close; but I have read that he was more interested in saving the union and less interested in freeing the slaves, despite how Hollywood might portray it.
If you were to base you objections to Lincoln on the premise that the union should not have been saved I probably wouldn't argue with you although that doesn't mean I would be agreeing with you. If you were to argue that Lincoln used slavery as an excuse for the war, I wouldn't argue that point either.
However, on your initial post which was of moderate length with a number of paragraphs you only had two sentences referring to Lincoln. The rest seemed to be devoted to the proposition that all things considered, slavery in America wasn't all that bad, just business as usual.
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I object to the simplistic myth that slavery was unique to Europe and Africans were unique victims. European racists invaded Africa to capture innocents in their tribal huts and brought them to the US where every southern white had a few to torture and kill and Lincoln rescued them all and was later sanitized, canonized and beatified.
DeleteI liked this lard ass for about fifteen minutes once.
ReplyDeleteNew Jersey Gov. Chris Christie is ripping libertarians — including Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) — for challenging government surveillance programs and failing to understand the dangers of terrorism.
“This strain of libertarianism that’s going through parties right now and making big headlines I think is a very dangerous thought,” the New Jersey GOP governor said on Thursday at a Republican governors forum in Aspen, Colo. “You can name any number of people and (Paul is) one of them.”
Christie, a potential 2016 candidate who appeared on the panel with Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal, Indiana Gov. Mike Pence and Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, said lawmakers who are questioning government surveillance programs should hear from the families affected by the Sept. 11 attacks.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/chris-christie-rand-paul-2016-election-94789.html#ixzz2aAoV8fBM
DeleteFirst McCain and now Christie ...
You are seeing the revealed truth of the politicos that wear the mantle of Lincoln shine through, Deuce.
But of course, Libertarian rat would dislike Lincoln too, as he brought Freedom to so many.
Deleteout, can't stand to read non sense anymore this hot day
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DeleteI've considered Christie a typical populist pol since day one. His initial appeal involved going after the low hanging fruit, the people the majority dislike, teachers unions, the press, entrenched politicians, etc. Yet, in office he has proved himself just another dick, supporting the national party line.
Why rock the boat when you think you might be steering it in 2016. Can you imagine the full power of the US military and the entire intelligence apparatus being in this guys hands?
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I would have objected to a politico that had Atlanta burned to the ground.
DeleteThat would have accepted over 600,000 Americans killed to impose import tariffs on manufactured goods.
Read "The Coming Fury", by Bruce Catton.
You would gain knowledge and insight, well beyond your current level of knowledge on the subject, what you learned in elementary school.
You really do not enjoy facts to occlude your 5000psi re-barred positions do you?
ReplyDeleteSpeaking to Bob, who is still holding a grudge against his fellow Lutherans for defacing all that medieval statuary in the great cathedrals of France and Northern Europe. Or as he is wont, rejecting his inner Viking.
DeleteMarketing geniuses over there at Justice. This should conince Snowden to pack up and come home. Holder is one smooth muthrfuker,
ReplyDeleteWASHINGTON (AP) — Attorney General Eric Holder has told the Russian government that the U.S. will not seek the death penalty for former National Security Agency systems analyst Edward Snowden.
In a letter dated July 23, the attorney general said the criminal charges Snowden faces do not carry the death penalty and that the U.S. will not seek the death penalty even if Snowden were charged with additional death penalty-eligible crimes.
Holder says his letter follows news reports that Snowden, who leaked information on largely secret electronic surveillance programs, has filed papers seeking temporary asylum in Russia on grounds that if he were returned to the United States, he would be tortured and would face the death penalty.
The attorney general’s letter was sent to Alexander Vladimirovich Konovalov, the Russian minister of justice.
Holder’s letter is part of an ongoing campaign by the U.S. government to get Snowden back.
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DeleteThis balls out effort on the part of the US to get Snowden is due to vindictive outrage and is due less to national security concerns than to embarrassment.
The same applies to the persecution of James Risen and his source. The events detailed in Risen's book happened 11 years ago and merely showed how the US intelligence services botched another of their covert operations.
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BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany’s president, who helped expose the workings of East Germany's dreaded Stasi secret police, said whistleblowers like U.S. fugitive Edward Snowden deserved respect for defending freedom.
DeleteWeighing in on a debate that could influence September’s federal election, President Joachim Gauck struck a very different tone from that of Chancellor Angela Merkel, who has assured Washington that Berlin would not shelter Snowden.
Gauck, who has little power but great moral authority, said people who work for the state were entitled to act according to their conscience, as institutions sometimes depart from the law.
"This will normally only be put right if information is made public. Whoever draws the public’s attention to it and acts out of conscience deserves respect," he told Friday's Passauer Neue Presse newspaper.
After the fall of communism, Gauck, a dissident Lutheran pastor, headed a commission in charge of the Stasi’s vast archive of files on people it had spied on, using them to root out former Stasi members and collaborators.
His unusual decision to speak out on a hot political issue comes as the fallout from the Snowden affair is dominating headlines in the run-up to the September 22 election where Merkel - who, like Gauck, comes from what was communist East Germany - hopes to win a third term.
“The fear that our telephones or mails are recorded and stored by foreign intelligence services is a constraint on the feeling of freedom and then the danger grows that freedom itself is damaged," he said.
"We are a democratic state with the rule of law with basic rights. Freedom is one of these basic rights."
desert ratFri Jul 26, 01:10:00 PM EDT
ReplyDeleteI have lots or varied, productive, pursuits.
This is a hobby that I enjoy, disabusing the propaganda of totalitarians.
thank you Rat, for clearly stating that you believe that Israel is a totalitarian state.
The visitors of this blog will read this clearly insane pov of your and make their own judgements
Apartheid is synonymous with totalitarianism, quot.
DeleteSimple as that.
I have no problem letting the entire world know that.
That is, in fact, one of the reasons to continue, daily.
The secular state off Israel operates in violation of the Article Four of the Geneva Accords.
DeleteOnly totalitarians that do not respect the rule of law would so.
desert ratFri Jul 26, 04:16:00 PM EDT
DeleteApartheid is synonymous with totalitarianism, quot.
Wow...
Perfect description of Abbas's Palestine.
Or the Arabians.
But there is no "Apartheid" in Israel.
Now talk about the big lie, just because you repeat it over and over again doesnt make it so.
You see Rat, you really are at a disadvantage, having never actually traveled to Israel.
Now Israel? The most stable place in the middle east. Where Jews, Christians, Bhais, Moslems, wiccans, druze, pagans all live together. Even gays live free, hell even gay arabs live free there.
Israel sports people of all race, creed, color, faith and lack of faith.
All that are citizens of Israel? are equal in the eyes of the law, property and justice.
Sucks to be you...
Citizens of Israel?
DeleteAlmost half the residents are not allowed to be citizens.
That is the very issue at hand.
They are oppressed and occupied, in violation of the Geneva Accords.
If the residents of the camps in Lebanon that have not been allowed to return, the people of the West Bank and Gaza were given equality in the eyes of the law property and justice, I would not dismiss your claims out of hand.
Those people are not equal in law, property or justice.
You are playing old propaganda themes, proven to false by reality.
desert ratFri Jul 26, 01:28:00 PM EDT
ReplyDeleteBesides, when queried about why those Russians moving to Israel under the "Right of Return" were not "real" Jews, quot refused to answered.
Now he tells us that those Russians are not real Jews, though they were considered so under Israel's "Right of Return" policies.
thank you again for MIS-quoting me.
Not what I said.
But never let be said that you ever actually QUOTE someone's words.
Rather you lie, distort and misdirect.
So why would we waste time "quotings" facts with someone of your ilk?
We have learned. You are a serial liar.
But we do appreciate your honest hatred of Jews & Israel.
What did you say, quot, look below:
DeleteMajority of fake Jewish in Palestine that have abortions? Russians... (not a REAL Jewish soul among them)
Why are those Russians fake Jews?
Why is there not a REAL Jewish soul amongst them?
Why were they allowed to immigrate to Israel, if they are fake Jews?
Do you not know how to read your own words?
When there are data points that invalidate the quot/AIPAC theme that it is the Russian immigrants that drive the abortion numbers, drive what the Chief Rabbinate of Israel described as the "Murder of Jewish Souls" in 2011 and as just plain murder in 2012, quot denounces the Judaism of the folks that immigrated to their Jewish Homeland under the Israeli "Right of Return" laws.
DeleteHow much more "anti-Judaic" can a secular socialist be, but to deny the other fella is a "REAL" Jew?
Then deny he even wrote it, a couple hours later.
Love the OUT of context quote there rodent..
Delete"Just using YOUR logic to discuss it with you.."
If you were CAPABLE of reading an entire train of thought you'd understand I wasnt talking about MY point of view, but YOURs and Deuce's.
You are getting sloppy and dumber by the day.
But you prove the point, No sense in discussing ANYthing with you, you lie, distort and misdirect all conversations to your sick, twists end.
You are one seriously demented person....
But the good news? I stand with Israel, you do not.
That says it all
rat is a Major dumbshit, who no one takes seriously any longer, po' ol' Quirk a much more Minor one, who deserves serious consideration at select times --
ReplyDelete>>>>>>>>>Name
Further information: Vendel and Aurvandil
The name of the Vandals has often been connected to that of Vendel, the name of a province in Uppland, Sweden, which is also eponymous of the Vendel period of Swedish prehistory, corresponding to the late Germanic Iron Age leading up to the Viking Age.
((((((((((((The connection would be that Vendel is the original homeland of the Vandals prior to the Migration Period, and retains their tribal name as a toponym.))))))))))))))
The etymology of the name may be related to a Germanic verb *wand- "to wander" (English wend, German wandeln). The Germanic mythological figure of Aurvandil "shining wanderer; dawn wanderer, evening star", or "Shining Vandal" is reported as one of the "Germanic Dioscuri". R. Much has forwarded the theory that the tribal name Vandal reflects worship of Aurvandil or "the Dioscuri", probably involving a tradition that the Vandalic kings were descended from Aurvandil (comparable to the case of many other Germanic tribal names).[2]<<<<<<<<<<<<
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DeleteNo reference, no link, zip, typical dumb Swede.
"The name of the Vandals has often been connected to that of Vendel" Often? By whom?
"Vendel period of Swedish 'prehistory'? Prehistory. Good lord.
The term 'vandals', the subject we were talking about, sprang from the actions of the Vandals under Genseric and those that followed when they sacked Rome and took over North Africa in the 5th century B.C. And you concern yourself with some theory of Swedish 'prehistory' that no one has ever heard of.
http://www.zonu.com/fullsize-en/2009-12-30-11527/The-Germanic-Invasions-of-the-Roman-Empire-378-439-AD.html
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Amending dosages recommended below:
DeleteQuirk - high
wiki, boobie?
DeleteThat is like saying encyclopedia.
You are not up to the challenges of life in the 21st century, are you.
STUDY: Dementia slowed in patients taking blood pressure meds...drudge
ReplyDeleteRecommended dosages:
rat - too far gone
Quirk - medium
Deuce - medium
The Gentleman from Mississippi - high, due to alcohol use
Sam - not needed
WiO - not needed
Bob - already on low
Doug - not needed
Chlorthalidone is recommended as needed above.
And, further Quirk, Buddhism is not simple in your sense of 'simplistic'.
ReplyDeleteIt might be described as Hinduism with a protestant twist.
It is elegant, profound, an educational technique, but not 'simplistic'.
You undoubtedly caught a glimpse of it under the rose-apple tree sometime in your youth.
Most do.
But you have forgotten.
You are not living in the cool.
But in the hot of Detroit.
There are not a lot of dance steps to it, but there are some, and they are elegant and graceful.
I hold a flower in my hand......do you see it?
Feds investigate Redneck Day at AZ high school...drudge
DeleteDidn't have the courage to read this disturbing article, so am turning the computer off.
later..
hmm, I guess it's just that kind of day; good article by Amory Lovins -
ReplyDelete3 Major energy trends to watch
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ReplyDeleteAnd, further Quirk, Buddhism is not simple in your sense of 'simplistic'.
Not being an English major, I have no problem in distinguishing the difference in meanings of 'simplicity' and 'simplistic'. Since you are an English major, it should come as no surprise that the latter is offered ascribed to you.
As for the rest of your gibberish, save it for your niece the next time she writes for cab fare. All except for that flower in your hand. I think you know what you can do with that.
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Civil Dialog would be appropriate here to provide a more welcoming atmosphere for passers-by.
DeletePo' Ol' Quirk, not even the rose apple experience in this his current wasted life. No chance for the bo-tree then. Be later.
DeleteAnd my niece has never asked for money.
You are probably thinking of your wife, when you said, picking a flower, here, wife, shove this up your ass, and walk.
Quirk just can't stand being proven wrong, and so easily too. That was the reason for his nasty remark above, Doug.
DeleteHe is becoming more rat like day by day, nasty. He has even begun to put words in the mouths of others, if you have noticed.
It may have to do with the his continued use of Cialis while using Chlorthalidone, along with drinking drank.
I am becoming somewhat concerned.
I have known about Vendel in Sweden since my aunt, who could still speak Swedish, told me about it in my youth.
Hamdoon has indicated to me privately that he is becoming concerned as well.
Delete.
DeleteCivil Dialog would be appropriate here to provide a more welcoming atmosphere for passers-by.
Gee, I will have to take note of that since it is coming from one of the most affable, courteous, dispassionate, not to mention, polished, politic, and polite guys ever to have graced this blog.
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Doug is indeed a great counter weight to your nasty, discourteous, passionate, crude, impolitic, and impolite self.
DeleteI agree, we should all take note.
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DeleteI have known about Vendel in Sweden since my aunt, who could still speak Swedish, told me about it in my youth.
:)
Good one.
Face it the only thing the Swedes were known for prior to the 8th century AD was sacrificing people and burying them in bogs. Oh yeh, and meatballs.
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Tourism in Israel is one of Israel's major sources of income, with 3.5 million tourist arrivals in 2012.[1] Israel offers a plethora of historical and religious sites, beach resorts, archaeological tourism, heritage tourism and ecotourism. Israel has the highest number of museums per capita in the world.[2] In 2009, the two most visited sites were the Western Wall and the grave of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai;[3] the most popular paid tourist attraction is Masada.[4] Most tourists visit from the United States, Russia, France, United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, Poland, The Netherlands, India, South Korea, Australia, and Brazil.
ReplyDelete3.5 MILLION visits in 2012
Not bad for a tiny Nation on the sea...
India, I will keep that in mind, and ask her one day.
DeleteShe has already said yes to Northern Nevada.
Cameras! Likes to take pictures.
Sens. Alexander and Rubio becoming examples for House Republicans who think they can advance political careers with amnesties and big immigration surges.
ReplyDelete"Last night across the street from our NumbersUSA offices, I could literally "read the writing on the wall" for Republicans who are following the advice of their national party leaders, consultants and corporate fund-raisers to flood America's labor markets with foreign workers.
The words "Sen. Alexander under fire on immigration" scrolled across the electronic news screen that wraps around the corner of the complex that contains the local ABC TV station and Politico.
***
Providing the starkest evidence was a Public Policy Polling report earlier this week on Sen Marco Rubio (R-Fla.). The firm was widely regarded as one of the most accurate during last year's presidential campaign. In its polling of preferences for a Republican presidential nominee, it found:
"Marco Rubio, who had led all of our polling since December, has dropped all the way to 6th place. . . . Rubio was at 21 or 22% on all of our polls between January and March but his support has now dropped to half that level (10%)."
Rubio made the decision in January to become the face of the omnibus immigration bill, even allowing various special interest groups to run non-stop ads featuring him touting the legislation on conservative TV and radio, even though the bill was written primarily by the staff of New York Democratic Sen. Chuck Schumer. Rubio made sure that few Republican Primary voters across the nation would be unaware of his leadership for the giant bill. It was a huge gamble apparently based on national GOP consultants' belief that Rubio could convert conservative voters to his view that giving out some 30 million new green cards over the next decade would be good for the American people."
https://www.numbersusa.com
I'm just glad Snowden won't be coming back here to try to put the make on my Newski Soviet Bride.
ReplyDeleteHow many rubles, Doug? Some of those Russian girls are having trouble finding a sober and responsible Ruski with whom to share life. Some of them I see popping up on pop up ads on my computer ain't bad.
Delete.
DeleteYou do realize those pop-up ads are geared specifically to the interests you exhibit when you do searches, right?
.
:)
DeleteDidn't know that. How would reading the dreaded American Thinker, Hot Air, Drudge, Real Clear Politics and The Libertarian, and my e-mails, plus a few Jewish sites, and Jihad Watch, etc. touch off such pop-ups?
Cause that's all that's on my reading list.
The pop-ups I am referring to are not porn, as you imply, I have never seen a naked woman on them, but are of the Russian Mail Order Bride variety.
Haven't seen one in a long time, but if I do again I will direct you to it.
You seem very interested. You might ask Doug concerning the subject. He seems to already have a mail order bride. He might be able to tell you if mail order mistresses are available, since that seems what you are seeking.
I have punched the block pop-ups dealie I bet a hundred times, to no result.
Delete.
DeleteSins of the past visited even unto today.
What can I say.
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Turkey clears bird of spying for Israel
ReplyDeleteAuthorities in eastern Turkey have cleared a small bird detained on suspicions of spying for Israel.
Intensive medical examinations of the kestrel - including X-rays - determined that the bird was, indeed, just a bird Photo: Alamy
By Justin Vela, Istanbul10:45AM BST 26 Jul 2013
The kestrel was discovered by residents of Altinavya, a village in Elazig province, wearing a metallic ring stamped with the words “24311 Tel Avivunia Israel”. Suspicious that the bird may have been on a spying mission for the Jewish state, villagers turned the bird over to local authorities, according to Turkish media.
So great was the level of concern medical personnel at Elazig’s Firat University initially identified the kestrel as “Israeli Spy” in their registration documents. Intensive medical examinations - including X-rays - determined that the bird was, indeed, just a bird. There were no sign of microchips that might transmit information back to Israel, local media reported. The kestrel was allowed to fly off after authorities determined there was no need to press charges.
Yet the incident shows the degree of paranoia and xenophobia regarding Israel that exists among large segments of Turkish society. It comes as talks between Turkey and Israel over compensation for families of those killed in the 2010 Mavi Marmara incident have stalled.
Eight Turks and one Turkish-American were killed on May 31, 2010 when Israeli commandos stormed the Turkish vessel carrying aid to the embargoed Gaza Strip.
Ties between the countries suffered until United States President Barack Obama brokered a reconciliation between the two sides during a visit to Israel earlier this year.
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DeleteRight, it would be real clever of Israel to send out a spy bird with a metal band that said, if found please return to Mossad HQ, 24311 Tel Avivunia Israel. Drop in nearest mailbox. Postage will be paid upon receipt.
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It was obviously an Israeli spy bird. The metal band was just a disinformation ploy. Designed to make the Turk think it was an Israeli spy bird. The Israelis knew the bird would be X-rayed and all manner of other testing, to no avail as they had developed a kind of feather with photo capacity and photo voltaic cells for energy that are undetectable by current means. The spy bird is 'nesting' on a Turk army base as I report.
DeleteHAVE ARCHAEOLOGISTS FOUND HOME OF BIBLE'S ELISHA?
ReplyDeletePottery shard dated to the 9th century B.C. with prophet's name
Archaeologists in Israel say they may have discovered the home of the Old Testament prophet Elisha.
A pottery shard with his name on it has been dated to about the ninth century B.C., which would be about the time he lived, researchers say.
“You know I cannot say for sure this particular Elisha that we found is the biblical Elisha,” archaeologist Ami Mazar told CBN Jerusalem bureau reporters Chris Mitchell and Julie Stahl.
“You know it’s very difficult to say, but it is very tempting because it is exactly the period when Elisha acted – the second half of the ninth century B.C.”
CBN reported the pottery piece was found in a novel house uncovered in Tel Rehov in the Jordan Valley. Elisha was born in Avel Mehola, only about seven miles from Tel Rehov.
The report said the research, which has been going on for more than a decade, uncovered a 3,000-year-old “well-planned” city.
There, a unique structure was uncovered, with two wings “connected to one another through the back room and each one of the wings had an opening to the street,” Mazar said.
Inside was a special room with a table and a bench. A pottery shard bore the name Elisha, CBN reported.
The news organization said archaeologist Stephen Pfann suggested the possibility it was the prophet were reasonable.
“With only six other people by the name of Elisha known in that time for a couple of centuries on either side, we can somehow believe that either there was just the luck that this holy man was also by the name of Elisha, or this was Elisha the prophet himself,” Pfann told CBN.
The report said also found on site were two inscriptions mentioning the family of Nimshi.
Pfann told CBN: “We remember that it was Elijah who was told to anoint Jehu, the son of Nimshi, to be the king. … And he passed that on to Elisha who sent out one of his disciples to finally do the anointing.”
Cary Summers, head of Nazareth Village, said there will be doubters.
“There is always the skeptic who says, ‘Show me the proof,’” Summers told CBN.
He pointed to the tile with the name and the excavation itself as “one more proof for what we call the doubting world.”
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/07/have-archaeologists-found-home-of-bibles-elisha/#bMbGlEA3BPi3Xyvt.99
ReplyDeleteSome here who show a deep daily and committed concern about abortions around the world, and particularly in certain small areas of the mid-east, may already be members of the Susan B. Anthony List.
If not, all are invited to join by going here-
http://www.sba-list.org/
Here's a typical subject at their blog--
>>>>Perry Signs Texas Law
“This is a lifesaving victory for Texas women and unborn children,” said SBA List President Marjorie Dannenfelser. “We thank Governor Perry, the pro-life legislators, and the entire statewide coalition including Texas Right to Life, Texas Alliance for Life, Concerned Women for America of Texas, 40 Days for Life, and so many others for making this happen."<<<<
The new law is intended to protect the unborn children from feeling the pain of being aborted.
,
ReplyDeleteFrom Charlie Laduff,
So Detroit files for bankruptcy. What does this mean? Pay close attention because it may be coming to you soon, Los Angeles, Baltimore, Chicago, Philadelphia. In 2011, Moody’s calculated the unfunded liabilities for Illinois’s three largest state-run pension plans to be $133 billion. (It is expected to be even larger this year.) That’s the size of six Detroit bankruptcies — give or take a few hundred million...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/26/opinion/come-see-detroit-americas-future.html?_r=0
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Have always said these monster cities are an insane way to live.
DeleteHow does the bankruptcy filing affect LaDuff's Detroit vacant lot golf game?
That's what I am desperate to know.
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ReplyDeleteHousing...
Throughout the housing recovery, plenty of attention has been paid to the sharp drop in first-time homebuyers, typically couples in their 20s and 30s. Joblessness has kept many from buying houses, but that also suggests fewer are renting, too; many are couch surfing at a friend's or relative's, or living with their parents. Even as many aspects of the housing market improve, the recovery in household formation among millennials lags behind improvements we've witnessed in home prices and foreclosures.
The share of 18 to 34-year-olds living with their parents rose from about 27.6% before the Great Recession in 2007 to above 31%, where it remains today, according to an analysis by Trulia, a real-estate website. Millennials have contributed to the sharp decline in household formation, which likely will take a while to return to normal.
Up until 2008, about 1.1 million new U.S. households were formed each year, mostly due to population growth. That has declined dramatically; between the first quarter of 2008 to the first quarter of 2011, only 450,000 new households a year were created. Even as the economy improves, household formation hasn't -- only 521,000 households were created between the first quarter of 2012 and the first quarter of 2013...
And a question for rat, true or not?
Given their living situation today, it's worth asking how investors could possibly rent all the homes they bought. It's a similar question Fusion IQ CEO Barry Ritholtz raised recently as firms big and small pour billions into Phoenix real estate: "How the hell can they be making money when there are so many empty houses cooking in the desert sun?"
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/07/26/the-rise-of-the-mooching-millennial/
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In Detroit they burn them down and try to collect the insurance money.
DeleteYou might try this, Quirk, as an alternative source of income, now that you no longer have 'Souls'.
ReplyDeleteShared via feedly // published on Simcha Jacobovici TV // visit site
The Greatest Mistranslation in History!
Pass this on. Shout it from the rooftops. The Bible never mentions the “Ten Commandments”!
It’s true. One can argue that this is the greatest mistranslation in history. Let me explain: the Torah i.e., the “Five Books of Moses”, has 613 commandments embedded in it. Over 50% of them involve the sacrificial ritual that used to be conducted first in the Israelite tabernacle in the desert and then in the Temple of Jerusalem (the First and Second Temples stood on the same site – Mount Zion – for approximately 1,000 years!) According to the Torah, 10 of the 613 commandments were inscribed on stone tablets by the finger of God. When the Israelites sinned, worshipping a golden calf at the foot of Mount Sinai, Moses broke the original God written commandments.
After the sinners had been dealt with and God forgave the children of Israel, Moses created a new set of tablets, this time inscribed by him. According to Rabbinic tradition, both the broken and the new tablets were set in a special box – the Ark of the Covenant – which was the centerpiece of the Holy of Holies. The tablets and the Holy Ark (as in “Raiders of the Lost Ark”) disappeared from history when the First Temple of Jerusalem was destroyed (586 BCE). According to Jewish legends, the prophet Jeremiah hid the Ark and the tablets before the invading Babylonians managed to get into the Temple (II Maccabees 2:4-8). During the Second Temple period, the Ark was not in the Holy of Holies, by then it had literally disappeared from history. But what of the writings inscribed on it?
Typically, the “Ten Commandments” are treated as the top 10 of the 613 commandments of the Torah. Even irreligious people will say “I’m not religious, but I believe in the Ten Commandments”. Most people remember; “Thou Shalt Not Murder” and “Thou Shalt Not Steal” but the other commandments, especially the one about the Sabbath, have been largely forgotten. Anyway, let’s return to the greatest mistranslation in history.
In the original Hebrew, the Torah refers to what is normally rendered as the “Ten Commandments” as “Aseret haDibrot”, which literally translates as the “Ten Sayings”. Though they are commandments, they are never referred to as such. Why? Because it seems that the Torah wants to separate these Ten Commandments from the others, and mark them out as ten “principles” out of which the commandments flow. Meaning, the most proper translation of “Aseret haDibrot” is the “Ten Principles”. Cecil B. DeMille notwithstanding, all the translations of the Bible have it wrong. Some of them may footnote the fact that they are mistranslating, but the plain truth is that the only way to translate “Aseret haDibrot” is the “TEN PRINCIPLES”.
Why should this matter? It should matter a lot because “commandments” are things that people easily ignore. Nobody wants to be pushed around. All the children of God feel rebellious at some point. But “principles” are difficult to ignore. They gnaw at you, they burrow into your mind and they activate insight and consciousness. It’s hard to ignore ten God-given “principles”. In the gulf between the Hebrew and the English, the French and the Spanish, and all modern languages, much suffering has occurred. It’s hard for the world to come back to the “Ten Commandments”. It’s easier, I think, to wrestle with the “Ten Principles”.
DeleteTravertine from Mount Sinai, the stone on which the commandments were inscribed.
As an archaeological footnote, the Torah says that Moses inscribed the commandments on stone tablets. It doesn’t mention chisels or any other sculptor’s tool. In other words, the stone must have been soft. The Torah also says that there was a stream that flowed from the top of Mount Sinai – where the tablets were written – to the bottom (Deuteronomy 9:21). The Talmud says that the tablets were transparent and you could see the letters from both sides. My recent blog about the true Mount Sinai – Hashem el-Tarif in the Sinai desert – states that at the top of the mountain there are the traces of a now dry stream. The clue that there was once a stream there is “travertine”, a carbonate deposit left behind by rivulets of clear water. Travertine is transparent and soft. Put it up to the light, and you can see letters on both sides. You can scratch it with a hard rock and it’s only deposited by pure water. So there you have it! The “Ten Principles” must have been written on travertine. It is said that when the Messiah comes, the “Ten Principles” will be rediscovered.
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from Mat
What ridiculous nonsense. Soft stone, a supposed god restrained by the technology of the time? It would have been a miracle had Moses arrived with an i-Pad, no an idea of a god, boxed in by his creators and their technological restraints. His “children” are his creators, his limitations are the imaginations and fantasies, the illusions, fears and prejudices of wandering nomads, totally ignorant of the knowledge that is common to a ten year old in 2013. Don’t bother even to try and pass it on to the real “sinners”, the purveyors of intellectual rot, the ludicrous idea that god is misunderstood by poor translations and he can’t get good help to get his “message” universally understood, the “Ten Principles”.
ReplyDeleteGod had to deal with the sinners. No doubt, “dealing” involved ethnic cleansing, murder, theft and rape. All in the name of the Lord.
All the killers throughout history, always march to the demands of a higher authority. I think I get it, it has a better name than torah, bible, it’s called bullshit, dangerous bullshit. Sacrifice and god dealing with his children has the whiff of homicide all over it. The idea that a human life should be wasted in the guilty, fearful, self-obsessed propitiate to supernatural nonentities and made up gods is the real tragedy.
A news reader for creative minds.
from deuce
:)
DeletePretty good there Deuce.
I report, you decide.
Thank you for your service and as always:
ReplyDeleteOOrah