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Sunday, December 12, 2010

9 Questions About Wikileaks from Ron Paul



  • Number 1: Do the America People deserve know the truth regarding the ongoing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen?
  • Number 2: Could a larger question be how can an army private access so much secret information?
  • Number 3: Why is the hostility directed at Assange, the publisher, and not at our governments failure to protect classified information?
  • Number 4: Are we getting our moneys worth of the 80 Billion dollars per year spent on intelligence gathering?
  • Number 5: Which has resulted in the greatest number of deaths: lying us into war or Wikileaks revelations or the release of the Pentagon Papers?
  • Number 6: If Assange can be convicted of a crime for publishing information that he did not steal, what does this say about the future of the first amendment and the independence of the internet?
  • Number 7: Could it be that the real reason for the near universal attacks on Wikileaks is more about secretly maintaining a seriously flawed foreign policy of empire than it is about national security?
  • Number 8: Is there not a huge difference between releasing secret information to help the enemy in a time of declared war, which is treason, and the releasing of information to expose our government lies that promote secret wars, death and corruption?
  • Number 9: Was it not once considered patriotic to stand up to our government when it is wrong?
Hat Tip: Mediate







111 comments:

  1. Janet Daley of the Telegraph disagrees:

    We are entering an unprecedented age of free speech, right? For the first time in human history, the state will no longer have control over information, right? Democracy is about to come to its full fruition, with the triumph of bottom-up power over top-down domination, right?

    Wrong.

    The frenzied hyperbole generated by the latest WikiLeaks episode – an anarchic, but so far remarkably ineffectual, spasm of delinquency – seems peculiarly weak in its understanding of the basic concepts with which its rhetoric is larded. It is, in fact, the precise opposite of what its apologists claim it to be: with its unilateral programme of revealing confidential information, which it boasts is unstoppable and accountable to no one, it is profoundly anti-democratic.
    In its self-contradictory maintenance of its own untraceable operations, it effectively declares itself to be the only agency in the world that is entitled to secrecy. Its insistence that it is somehow a voice of open and transparent “freedom of expression” is simply absurd: there is no issue here of any individual or group openly expressing an opinion that would otherwise have been suppressed. The only opinion that is implicitly conveyed by WikiLeaks’ exposures is the boringly prosaic anti-Americanism of the average Guardian comment writer.

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  2. Has Assange declared or given indication of his ultimate motive?

    To my mother's mind, it's money. "It's always about the money." Or words to that effect.

    But that doesn't sound quite right to me.

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  3. Question Number One:

    "Do the America People deserve know the truth regarding the ongoing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen?"

    I'd be interested in your answer.

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  4. That is an interesting question:

    At the beginning of the Afghan War, no. We were there to avenge 911, to kill our attackers. Simple mission. The initial achievements were brilliant, using the Northern Alliance against the Taliban.

    I sincerely believe that we should have used tactical nuclear weapons at Tora Bora. The American people would have had no right to know about the plan, but would obviously had know about the result.

    Guantanamo was foolish. We had no reason to keep Taliban prisoners for over a few months and kept them in Afghanistan.Did we have a right to know how prisoners were handled, again no.

    The American people have a right to be defended. They have no right to know how those who are obligated to defend choose to do it.

    Now assume the government had used 911 as an excuse to attack another country that was uninvolved in 911. We would have a right to know that as there would have been no legitimate basis for the attack and it would have crossed a line where we were being deceived.

    If we accept, which I did at the time, that there were vast amounts of weapons that could have been used against US in Iraq, the public would have had no right to know much more than what was provided by the imbedded press.

    Clearly with both wars the military and political rulers felt the American public should be informed and provided for the imbedding of journalists.

    I have learned little new from the Wikileaks.

    I will answer all of Paul's questions. I would appreciate your response as well:
    1.- no
    2.- yes
    3.- yes
    4.- probably yes, not sure
    5.- I think the wars have both gone on too long. The absurdity of half the US deaths coming from IED's is absurd.
    6.- Here Paul is correct, If assange can be convicted , there are many journalists and bloggers that can as well.
    7. - yes.
    8. - yes.
    9. - yes.

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  5. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  6. I sincerely believe that we should have used tactical nuclear weapons at Tora Bora.



    I agree with that.

    For sure.

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  7. This fine rainy morning I bring to you Christmas in my heart (a true letter from a soldier)

    Just hit the play button under the title. It's one you wouldn't want to miss. Have a warm day.

    Peace

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  8. Ron Paul, from time to time, makes more sense than all the rest of them put together.

    When it comes to the Fed he's pretty much out to lunch. On all other matters he's just about always "right on."

    He's just as likely to get my vote this time around as anyone.

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  9. BTW, Deuce, I want to thank you.

    I've been a bit preoccupied with family matters, and haven't commented much the last few days, but you have put up a string of Very Good Posts (as always, of course.) :)

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  10. Number 1: Do the America People deserve know the truth regarding the ongoing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen?

    Without a doubt, the people should know the truth, after a decade of "Long War".

    Number 2: Could a larger question be how can an army private access so much secret information

    That is the real question as it concerns leadership and systematic rot.

    Number 3: Why is the hostility directed at Assange, the publisher, and not at our governments failure to protect classified information?

    Misdirection by the "Powers that Be".

    Number 4: Are we getting our moneys worth of the 80 Billion dollars per year spent on intelligence gathering?

    More than half of the money goes towards fraud and waste, as in any Federal project where there is observable systematic rot.

    Number 5: Which has resulted in the greatest number of deaths: lying us into war or Wikileaks revelations or the release of the Pentagon Papers?

    The lies which involved US in these foreign adventures, to include Vietnam.

    Number 6: If Assange can be convicted of a crime for publishing information that he did not steal, what does this say about the future of the first amendment and the independence of the internet?

    If Assange can be extradited from Europe, tried and convicted in US courts for publishing the data sets, the 1st Amendment is dead.

    Number 7: Could it be that the real reason for the near universal attacks on Wikileaks is more about secretly maintaining a seriously flawed foreign policy of empire than it is about national security?

    Yes, of that there is little doubt.

    Number 8: Is there not a huge difference between releasing secret information to help the enemy in a time of declared war, which is treason, and the releasing of information to expose our government lies that promote secret wars, death and corruption?

    Of course. There is no "Long War" on terror. Not that was approved by Congress. There is an authorization to use force against the perpatrators of 11SEP01 and there is an authorization to depose Saddam.

    There is no authorization for "Endless Conflict" against all enemies, foreign or domestic.

    Number 9: Was it not once considered patriotic to stand up to our government when it is wrong?

    Still is.

    Mr Assange is no US patriot, though. He is a foreign national. He is not committing treason.
    He is not being "unpatriotic".

    He is doing what is right, for an interested and involved foreign national to do.

    The problem is within US, not him.

    If the same data sets were to be made available, but sourced from the Chi-coms instead, we'd all applaud its' publication.

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  11. The diversity of opinion, and the eclectic mix of commentors, in addition to your, and Whit's, hard work, and Excellent posts absolutely make the Elephant Bar the most interesting, and all-around informative site on the internet.

    No other blog, Anywhre, has the timeliness, and multiple, well-thought out viewpoints that are found at the Elephant Bar.

    No wonder folks find it so hard to "leave." :)

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  12. I'll just second everything Rat wrote, and save some bloviating. There's not a chance I could write it as well.

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  13. Swedish police: Explosions were terrorism

    By MALIN RISING, Associated Press – 57 mins ago
    STOCKHOLM – Two blasts that shook a busy shopping street in central Stockholm were an act of terrorism, officials said Sunday, in what appeared to be a suicide bombing. It would be the first such attack in the Nordic country.
    Police would not comment on a motive for the Saturday attack, which left the apparent bomber dead and two people injured. But a Swedish news agency said it received an e-mail threat just before the blast in which the writer claimed to have visited the Middle East "for jihad," and referred to the country's soldiers in Afghanistan and a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad that outraged the Muslim world.

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  14. As I understand Assange is very likely to be indicted by the US for violation of our 1917 Espionage Act.

    Reportedly he has said that he passed State secrets to to Hezbollah.

    There is a big difference between releasing cables which simply embarass our Elites and passing harmful or detrimental secrets to our enemies.

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  15. rufus said,


    No wonder folks find it so hard to "leave." :)

    Sun Dec 12, 08:24:00 AM EST


    ...agree entirely!...

    Censorship, whether at the EB or by Paypal, Amex, Visa, MC, Google, Facebook etc etc etc is always troubling to me. In the case of Mr. Assange, I am really concerned about the uniform opposition mounted by all the powers that be within the space of a couple days. Conspiracy comes to mind.

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  16. The US is not at war with Hezbollah.

    Though they may well be "an enemy".

    There is no Authorization to Use Force, against them. Unless they can be directly tied to the events of 11SEP01.

    It'll be interesting to watch, the continuing tales of Assange.

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  17. Doug, most people didn't notice how much Coal "Spiked" in 2008.

    China is, I believe, a "net" coal Importer, today, and we are just a hair's width away from being a coal "importer" ourself (about 4% IIRC.)

    Also, those "shale gas" plays have turned out to be Very Unprofitable at $4.00 nat gas, and, unobserved, it seems, by the Cramers of the world, we Still Import 13% of our Nat Gas (how much would it be if we actually started trying to run our Big Trucks on it?)

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  18. .

    Some people fear there is a conspiracy to shut up Assange and Wikileaks. To me, it appears to be blatant intimidation by the parties that be.

    It is no different that China's intimidation of Google or the steps they are taking to mask the fact that a dissident recieved the Nobel Prize. We see it in the language used in Wikileak documents themselves. Being 'diplomats' our guys don't come out and say "do this or you're fucked" but the meaning is obvious. It's the same as when HS set up a room at At&T to monitor the telcons of US citizens without a warrant.

    Ronald Reagan feared having them come in and say "We are the government and we are here to help."

    At&T, Google, Paypal, et al fear them coming in and saying "We are the government and we need your help."

    .

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  19. I was reading, last night, about the "Northwoods" Plan - a plan by the CIA, and Military in 1963 to commit Terrorist Acts upon our own Citizens, and Military Installations, and blame it on Cuba in order to garner public approval for a War against Castro.

    It was shocking. I'm turning into an Assange supporter. We have to keep a baleful eye upon Washington, and the "Spooks," and Dilletants that inhabit that perverted place, boys. They've been pissing down our leg for a long time. They'll drown us if we give them enough opportunity.

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  20. .

    "Do the America People deserve know the truth regarding the ongoing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen?"

    Perhaps not as they were intially advertised. Probably wouldn't even have really been interested except in an academic sense.

    After ten years?

    Damn straight.

    .

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  21. As you all know, I never "tout" anyone to "Buy oil," or "buy gasoline." There's a reason for this. Even though I'm totally convinced that oil, and gasoline prices are going up over the next 3 to 6 months, the Volatility in the commodities markets is such that you can be right "long term," and get Broke, quickly, "Short term." It's just a horribly Dangerous place to "play."

    Having said that, I'm becoming convinced that we'll see another spike like we saw in 2008 as soon as this summer. The only question is "how high can the spike go before we fall back into recession?" The answer: I haven't the first clue.

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  22. BTW, I hope to start gathering information on "Utility Costs," and "Usage" in our 3 County area next week. I'm doing a "3 County" area because my county is so sparsely populated that I'm afraid my study could be attacked as being "unrepresentative" of the real world.

    My area will be Tunica, Tate, (two sparsely populated rural counties, and Desoto (more densely populated) Counties. Taken as a threesome, I believe these counties will give an accurate representation of Mississippi, as a whole.

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  23. I'm thinking about buying a couple of Solar Stocks for my Grandson's College Fund. It's the only industry that I can see (that has the right kind of publicly traded companies) that I'm willing to bet will have Very Strong Growth in the next 10 years.

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  24. desert rat said...
    If Assange can be extradited from Europe, tried and convicted in US courts for publishing the data sets, the 1st Amendment is dead.


    Definitely. It would be interesting to see how we'd react to Chi-com secrets being revealed and the Chi-coms getting the Australian publisher of the secrets arrested and sent to China for trial.

    The hypocrisy of US on this is absolutely unbelievable.

    I'm waiting for Pinch Sulzberger's indictment as well, since the NYT also published the Wikileaks stuff.

    I mean, if we're going to cross the Rubicon, let's go all the way.

    The more the clowns in DC and their globalist buddies demonize this guy, the more I want the "Doomsday file" to hit the streets.

    He's really getting the Emmanuel Goldstein treatment.

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  25. A Consensus seems to be forming.

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  26. A lot of posters here are ex-military.

    Most of us will never see 50 again.

    Disregarding physical condition, we now understand why 17,18 and 19 year olds are the choice for military service. Can you imagine?

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  27. Red, I believe referred to us as "D squad", D for digruntled ex-enlisted men.

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  28. It's very likely that Assange restrained himself to publishing only embarassing links, he would never see a day in court. He couldn't restrain himself. Whether he is utopian or anarchist or whatever is unclear, but he has made it clear that he is rabidly anti-American.

    It's my understanding that the 1917 law is a good one that has produced convictions against both US citizens and foreigners. I suspect Mr. Assange will the next.

    I don't have any sympathy for Assange nor the dysfunctional Mr. Manning. I also see no reason to focus merely on the perps while ignoring the failure to protect sensitive/secret information.

    Shine the light on all the players.

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  29. Bro D-Day makes a great point. What about the New York Times? They actually jumped in, and beat'im to the punch on a lot of the "juicier" stuff.

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  30. Well, Now the world has gone completely ass-over-teacup; I'm linking speeches by Socialists. But, dammit, this guy has something to say, and it's worth hearing.

    Ladies, and Worms, I give you Bernie Sanders

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  31. And, yeah, yeah, I know; we're not "Giving" the Walton Family anything if we're merely allowing them to keep a little more of their own money, so don't flame me with the usual "Rufus the Communist Dummy" Tirade (Doug.)

    I'm just saying the guy makes a few cogent points.

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  32. I wish I had been in the military, it's one thing in my life I feel bad about.

    I wish you vets the best.

    I took my chances on the combine, though.

    Best to all you Vets.

    God Bless Melody for her music.

    Let's have a songfull Christmas and Holiday Season.

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  33. Personally, I think Dividends, Cap Gains, and Inheritances should all be taxed at the appropriate "income tax" rate. I'll be damned if I can understand why money made from "investments" should be taxed less than money made from driving a truck, or laying bricks. I'm just dum that way.

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  34. You missed a "gig and a party," Bob.

    After you get past that part about people shooting at you, anyway. :)

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  35. The government needs less spending, more revenue and a complete overhaul of the tax system.

    Forget net neutrality. Start with tax neutrality.

    Once you have that, set a number for accross the board cuts and that includes benefits for government workers. 10% seems fine to me.

    Adjust the neutral rate to bring the budget into balance over five years with no spending increase on any item not offset by a decreas in another.

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  36. 8 percent sounds better to me, but we'll leave it up to Rufus.

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  37. First off, it makes absolutely No sense that I should pay a higher percentage of My Income in Taxes than does Warren Buffet. Period.

    And, it makes No Sense that GE, Exxon, Halliburton, et al pay NO Federal Income Tax, and that their shareholders (including myself) should only pay 15% on their Dividend, and Cap Gains Income.

    So, Monday morning, you fix That.

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  38. It, also, makes no sense that we allow China to use Slave Labor, and State-Subsidized Enterprises to put OUR manufacturers out of business.

    Again, That is Great for the Warren Buffets of the world, but it will bankrupt me, and thee. We can fix that Monday afternoon.

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  39. Our resident apologist for Jihadists states:


    desert rat said...
    The US is not at war with Hezbollah.

    Though they may well be "an enemy".

    There is no Authorization to Use Force, against them. Unless they can be directly tied to the events of 11SEP01.


    July 19, 1982: The president of the American University in Beirut, Davis S. Dodge, is kidnapped. Hezbollah is believed to be behind this and most of the 30 other kidnappings of Westerners over the next ten years.

    April 18, 1983: Hezbollah attacks the U.S. embassy in Beirut with a car bomb, killing 63 people, 17 of whom were American citizens.

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  40. Oct. 23, 1983: Hezbollah attacks U.S. Marine barracks with a truck bomb, killing 241 American military personnel stationed in Beirut as part of a peace-keeping force. A separate attack against the French military compound in Beirut kills 58.

    Sept. 20, 1984: The group attacks the U.S. embassy annex in Beirut with a car bomb, killing 2 Americans and 22 others.

    March 16, 1984: William F. Buckley, a CIA operative working at the U.S. embassy in Beirut, is kidnapped and later murdered.

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  41. April 12, 1984: Hezbollah attacks a restaurant near the U.S. Air Force Base in Torrejon, Spain. The bombing kills eighteen U.S. servicemen and injures 83 people.

    Dec. 4, 1984: Hezbollah terrorists hijack a Kuwait Airlines plane. Four passengers are murdered, including two Americans.

    Feb. 16, 1985: Hezbollah publicizes its manifesto. It notes that the group's struggle will continue until Israel is destroyed and rejects any cease-fire or peace treaty with Israel. The document also attacks the U.S. and France.

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  42. June 14, 1985: Hezbollah terrorists hijack TWA flight 847. The hijackers severely beat Passenger Robert Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, before killing him and dumping his body onto the tarmac at the Beirut airport. Other passengers are held as hostages before being released on June 30.

    Dec. 31, 1986: Under the alias Organization of the Oppressed on Earth, Hezbollah announces it had kidnapped and murdered three Lebanese Jews. The organization previously had taken responsibility for killing four other Jews since 1984.

    Feb. 17, 1988: The group kidnaps Col. William Higgins, a U.S. Marine serving with a United Nations truce monitoring group in Lebanon, and later murders him.

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  43. March 17, 1992: With the help of Iranian intelligence, Hezbollah bombs the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires, killing 29 and injuring over 200.

    July 18, 1994: Hezbollah bombs the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires–again with Iranian help–killing 86 and injuring over 200.

    Nov. 28, 1995: Hezbollah bombards towns in northern Israel with volleys of Katyusha rockets in one of the group's numerous attacks on Israeli civilians.

    March 30, 1996: Hezbollah fires 28 Katyusha rockets into northern Israeli towns. A week later, the group fires 16 rockets, injuring 36 Israelis. Israel responds with a major offensive, known as the "Grapes of Wrath" operation, to stop Hezbollah rocket fire.

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  44. October 1997: The United States lists Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

    By MICHAEL R. GORDON and DEXTER FILKINS
    Published: November 28, 2006
    WASHINGTON, Nov. 27 — A senior American intelligence official said Monday that the Iranian-backed group Hezbollah had been training members of the Mahdi Army, the Iraqi Shiite militia led by Moktada al-Sadr.

    The official said that 1,000 to 2,000 fighters from the Mahdi Army and other Shiite militias had been trained by Hezbollah in Lebanon. A small number of Hezbollah operatives have also visited Iraq to help with training, the official said.

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  45. and then in 2007

    Iran is using the Lebanese Shiite militia Hezbollah as a “proxy” to arm Shiite militants in Iraq and Tehran’s Quds force had prior knowledge of a January attack in Karbala in which five Americans died, a U.S. general said Monday.
    U.S. military spokesman Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner said a senior Lebanese Hezbollah operative, Ali Mussa Dakdouk, was captured March 20 in southern Iraq. Bergner said Dakdouk served for 24 years in Hezbollah and was “working in Iraq as a surrogate for the Iranian Quds force.”


    Read more: http://defensetech.org/2007/07/02/hezbollah-in-iraq/#ixzz17v1KDSij
    Defense.org

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  46. This "Long War" adventurism is great for the shareholders of General Dynamics, and the Generals, but, once again, it's toxic for me and thee.

    My paying taxes to support 100,000 Military Personnel in Europe, and another 50,000 in S. Korea, and Japan is wonderful for the shareholders of Grumman, and the Pentagon Brass, but sucks for me.

    Tuesday Morning would be a good time to do something about that.

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  47. and then in 2009

    The commander of U.S. forces in Latin America says the Iranian-backed Lebanese militant group Hezbollah is involved in drug trafficking in Colombia. The admiral is worried about increased Iranian and Hezbollah activities throughout the region.

    At Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on Tuesday Admiral James Stavridis accused Hezbollah of involvement in the drug trade.

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  48. and now

    First Muslim congressman excites crowd in “Hezbollah City” USA, a.k.a. Dearborn, Michigan
    By Ted Sampley

    “Allaha akbar” were the last words heard on the cockpit voice recorder of Flight 93, just before Muslims murdered all its passengers by crashing the jetliner into the ground.
    Muslim presence in Dearborn dates back to the last decade of the 19th century, when men from Lebanon followed a larger number of Lebanese Christian immigrants to the U.S.
    Dearborn, which was originally settled in 1795 by German Catholics as a stagecoach stop on the Sauk Trail between Detroit and Chicago, has slowly given way to an escalating population of Palestinian, Lebanese, Yemenis and Iraqi emigrants and their descendants in turn.
    Today, Dearborn is dominated by Lebanese Muslims, with an Arab population that has grown to nearly 40,000 from 7,000 in 1970. It has evolved into a midwestern United States re-creation of the Middle East with the second largest concentration of Arabs and Muslims outside the Middle East, second only to Paris.

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  49. and I could go on for another 30 posts...

    Hezbollah is at war with the USA, it is an arm of Iran, which is also at war with us...

    We are at war with both..

    Whether we say it out loud or not, whether the squatter in chief admits it or not...

    war is here...

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  50. I'm for making Israel the 51st state, but I don't think they want to do it.


    Would be a big gain over Detroit, Michigan.

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  51. Dearborn, which was originally settled in 1795 by German Catholics as a stagecoach stop on the Sauk Trail between Detroit and Chicago, has slowly given way to an escalating population of Palestinian, Lebanese, Yemenis and Iraqi emigrants and their descendants in turn.
    Today, Dearborn is dominated by Lebanese Muslims, with an Arab population that has grown to nearly 40,000 from 7,000 in 1970. It has evolved into a midwestern United States re-creation of the Middle East with the second largest concentration of Arabs and Muslims outside the Middle East, second only to Paris.




    THINK PEOPLE!!!!!

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  52. THE CONSTITUTION IS NOT A SUICIDE PACK!!!!


    a burka may be coming your way, Melody....

    ....o melody....

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  53. "Up In Michigan" was basically where Hemingway came from, with some previous time in Illinois.

    "Big Two Hearted River" came from there.

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  54. Over Thanksgiving I was peripherally brought back into the orbit of my ex's family. Maybe 10 adults and maybe another 4 or so kids of college age. Many more younger ones.

    Among them are the one's I spoke about as "smug liberals" in a comment on Trish's daughter's Semester at Sea.

    All with degrees. Three teaching at university level. All on government payroll in one way or another.


    And all of them, all of them still love Obama...


    .

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  55. And all of them, all of them still love Obama...


    did you have a vomit bag?

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  56. We don't need anymore states. You're not tired of enough empire yet Bob?

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  57. One consistent theme I noticed in their lives is the ubiquity of NPR in their lives.

    We have an NPR station, KPLU, in our area that features jazz. But which also carries much of the NPR generated news and comment. That station is sort of "background noise" in their lives.On in the kitchen. On in the cars.

    If not KPLU, then KUOW which is more of what I'd describe as "mainstream" NPR.

    I had been thinking about the significance of this.

    I had purchased and have started to re-read Jacques Ellul's "Propaganda."


    .

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  58. GN your observation is correct and I think I know why.

    The special privledge of the utra-rich, endorsed by the Republicans is insane for two reasons.

    A lot of the ultra-rich are Democrats. No coddling in the world will bring them over.

    Second, for everyone of the ultra-rich that the Republicans cater to, we probably lose 50,000 from the center.

    It is nuts.

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  59. Then a couple of strangely coincidental things happened. Strange to me at least.

    And all with the background of Assange and Manning.

    The first was the recently publicized clip of a Van Jones' speech where he wants to "take back the media."


    .


    I'm thinking, whoa brother, ain't you already got it?

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  60. The Acquisitor Class recieve very little marginal utility for their aquired wealth. Most of them are very highly motivated to become bigger and wealthier because that is their gig.

    I believe that there is a paradox on tax rates for the wealthy in that a higher tax rate may be an incentive to work harder for their after tax income.

    Where are the limits? i am not sure but probably a surprisingly higher level than many expect, and where rates are now. 18 year old Miley Cyrus made enough to buy at least one multimillion dollar condo and a new bong, and indication that she has money to burn.

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  61. Deuce said...
    We don't need anymore states. You're not tired of enough empire yet Bob?


    israel doesnt want to be the 51st state...

    In fact Israel is and wants to be it's own nation. That's why years ago, the current Prime Minister (who was serving as Prime Minister at the time) came to the Congress and held a rare joint house meeting, in which he humbly thanks America for all the aid and support that she has given over the years and hoped that moral support would continue but called for an ENDING of all economic aid.

    The ending of ECONOMIC aid to the state of Israel happened quietly and without fanfare. Now of course, the USA does provide MILITARY aid to Israel and since after 9/11 there was a massive increase in that aid.

    One could argue that while we help Israel with said MILITARY aid we should also realize that the reason that aid is needed is because America is still supporting the actual enemies of the USA & Israel (and the west) with oil purchases and arm sales to depots and totalitarian nations. Couple that with economic aid to others across the globe that promote disgusting non-American valued nations and groups that are all united by their hatred of Israel we are feeding the snake while providing snake repellant to Israel.

    America has a bad history of selling arms to truly bad players on the international scene.

    One can only wonder what the would happen if all economic aid, oil $$$ and assistance to the arabs were cut off for a few years???

    I predict peace would break out...

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  62. bob,

    Re: Israel 51st state

    You have written this on numerous occasions. Why would Israel wish this?

    The US has no need for additional states other than from the pool of possibilities in its own southern hemisphere.

    Given what is going on in Venezuela, with the massive arms build up via Russia (1800 SAMS in 2009, e.g.), I would think the US would do well to tend its own knitting.

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  63. roger that. Nothing breaks gritted teeth faster than a foreign national hearing an American suggest that their country should become a US state.

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  64. Deuce, Allen and WIO in accordance.

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  65. The second and, actually much more dispiriting, thing happened this morning.

    I mentioned a while back that I had a conversation with an old friend, educated, retired from a career as an officer in the merchant marine. Which I wouldn't consider a liberal breeding ground on the licensed side. Although on the unlicensed side you do have some historically militant unions like the SUP...

    And I will admit she's been living the past 5 years or so up in the Pt Townsend area. Which is, if you're familiar with Washington State, where the old hippies and trustafarians have taken root.


    Our relationship is long lived, but cautious. We are old workmates. And in that context I generally try to observe the old rules of not bringing up politics or religion. And I also try to avoid co-worker gossip. I've just found that that sort of thing erodes the work environment. And I've carried that level of interaction over in our retired lives...

    We have many areas of mutual interest and we've pretty much stuck with them. Not gotten "personally" involved.

    So, anyway, we were talking and she was unfamiliar with Stuxnet. And I had given what I felt to be a very inadequate explanation.


    Later, I came across what I thought was a pretty nice little Stuxnet overview by Fred Barnes. And I e-mailed her a link.


    This morning I opened my e-mail in box and got this one sentence reply regarding Barnes' story:

    "I prefer to get my news and information from someplace other than Fox News."

    That was out of the blue...


    .

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  66. Hey! I like emoticons. Some of what I type with a smile on my face could be misconstrued without the li'l "smiley." :)

    ReplyDelete
  67. Well, she's a fucking moron, Gnossos; Don't worry about it.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Anyone who believes that ALL the Saints (or, Sinners, for that matter) are lined up on "one side" of this football is an idiot.

    ReplyDelete
  69. O/T Charles and Camilla mob attack

    A new report indicates that Camilla was "touched" by a stick "slipped" through the broken window of her Rolls.

    If Prince Charles has any sense at all he will thank the British government for having provided an elfen security detail. He will then fire said security detail and hire one of his own - armed and ready for bear.

    The Prince might do well to learn to carry heat.

    ReplyDelete
  70. bob,

    Re: Israel 51st state

    You have written this on numerous occasions. Why would Israel wish this?


    Allen, think of Arizona, and some of the shit holes there!!!

    :)

    And, two Senators!!!!

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  71. Again O/T Venezuelan arms race...

    ...saw a report about SAM300s being sent to Venezuela by Russia...Iran and Venezuela are reported to have come to agreement on construction and manning of a joint missile base, capable of launching medium range missiles into the US Midwest...Iran is promising to meet Venezuela's lust for nuclear firepower...Venezuela may trade its SAM300s for same...The administration and DoS are silent...

    ReplyDelete
  72. bob,

    With all due respect, Israel has about 5 million senators as it is :-)

    As to Arizona, the DoJ is suing the state for its immigration policies. While often futile, Israel does get to reach out and touch the bad guys from time to time without being sued.

    No, bob, states are merely anachronisms of a bygone era. We are now one big, affirmative family - from sea to shining sea.

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  73. Charles and Camilla

    Since I do not recall any report of the Prince throwing Camilla to the floor of the Rolls and protectively covering her with his body, Camilla might consider hiring a security detail and finding an escort packing heat - as it were.

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  74. roger that. Nothing breaks gritted teeth faster than a foreign national hearing an American suggest that their country should become a US state.


    but bob disagrees, let them into the union, if they wish.....

    I see many advantages to it...intelligence....spunk...many other things...including an out post on our defense against the muzzies.... we don't want Melody to be wearing a burka....

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  75. 1. Not like this. And certainly not the truth about everything.
    2. Wasn't just Manning.
    3. Because he's the final leaker.
    4. Well, how in the hell would we know?

    Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

    5. This isn't a matter of tallying up bodies for comparison purposes.
    6. Good question.
    7. I believe it's a matter of wanting to keep secrets secret, which is as necessary to a flawless foreign policy (good luck with that) as to the fundamentally flawed.
    8. The latter can be the former at one and the same time. Motive may differ while generating the same effect.

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  76. Deuce,

    You should appreciate this; I did.

    Charlie Gilmour, the Cenotaph punk-monkey, has been arrested.

    Charlie Gilmour arrested over Cenotaph tuition fees protest

    Sgt. MacKenzie was so badly wounded that an army surgeon wanted to remove his arm. MacKenzie refused, insisting that he be returned to his men at the earliest. Sgt. Joesph MacKenzie fell to German bayonets defending a fallen comrade.

    Sgt. MacKenzie

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  77. 9. I think someone already touched upon it: When it comes to Assange, patriotism is obviously not an issue.

    Is Manning, the only other individual named, patriotic?

    Isn't that an interesting question in this context?

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  78. There is actually a loose, unofficial system (I think it's fair to call it that) of leaks. A leak network, if you will.

    It operated in the run-up to Iraq, for example.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Bomb Kills 6 U.S. Soldiers in Afghanistan

    ZHARI, Afghanistan — A van packed with explosives detonated beside a small outpost in southern Afghanistan, killing six Americans and wounding more than a dozen Afghan and American soldiers

    ReplyDelete
  80. MELODY--

    It's cold here.


    Can you put up your best version of "The Little Drummer Boy"?

    That would make my old aching bones feel younger.

    ReplyDelete
  81. .

    It is interesting that those who scream the loudest about unauthorized leaks damaging national security are the same ones who have no problem releasing 'authorized leaks' to promote their own political or policy objectives.

    And don't confuse what I am talking about with disinformation campaigns.

    What I am talking about is releasing true, half-true, redacted, or truncated info in order to gain advantage or promote a course of action.

    When this subject came up I was kind of conflicted about it. The more I think about it the less I think Assange should be prosecuted.

    He is in a world of shit, however, because he has made public some of the dirty little secrets the powers that be didn't want public and in the process has the big boys pissed at him.

    Manning on the other hand should be punished to the extent of the law that he broke.

    That probably sounds inconsistent but Manning broke the law. If he did it because he was pissed about something else, or he was looking for his fifteen minutes of fame, or just for the fun of it, he's a prick and deserves what he gets. If he did because he thought it would in some way produce some good even though he knew he would be punished for it, it gets a little more gray.

    Of course, it is easy to look at this from a strictly detached view and talk about macro issues like freedom of speech because, honestly, looking at the leaked documents I've seen, I just don't see how anyone of them could actually end up causing the death of more serviceman as predicted by Petraeus, Gates, Clinton, Obama, et al. Maybe I just need the lines of cause and effect drawn more clearly for me.

    The leaks were all pretty prosaic stuff, embarassing but nothing most of us at the EB hadn't suspected anyway.

    .

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  82. When this subject came up I was kind of conflicted about it. The more I think about it the less I think Assange should be prosecuted.

    You are the dumbest shit on the blog.

    But I do love you.

    MELODY --

    "The Little Drummer Boy"

    ReplyDelete
  83. Good Christ, Quirk, some people will possibly die over it.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Maybe I just need the lines of cause and effect drawn more clearly for me.

    If first, you understood the concept.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Jews or Jaws?

    A recent spate of shark attacks on tourists at Egypt’s Sharm El-sheik resort has been blamed on Israel.

    “Egypt’s Governor of southern Sinai said:
    ‘We must not discount the possibility that Mossad threw the shark into the sea, in order to attack tourists who are having fun in Sharm al-Sheikh.’”

    ReplyDelete
  86. It's not all that complex, Quirk. If you drive the tractor into the mud, you get stuck.

    Then you have to get another tractor and a great big firm line, made out of steel, to pull the other one out.


    ????

    Questions?????

    ReplyDelete
  87. "I prefer to get my news and information from someplace other than Fox News."



    Same thing was said to me recently by an elder "academic" type...

    I ripped her a new asshole by being nice, articulate and specific, nothing kills like kindness and how shall we say it? Showing the so called "elites" that their reading lists make Sarah Palin's ANSWER on Katie (I have a colon) Couric interview is vast....

    .I said, no, most times what I see on Fox I learned about weeks before.

    I do my own scouring of the internet, using google translate and reading what my enemies write in their NATIONAL press...

    Listing about a dozen sites she'd never heard of...

    I then launched into a screed about how Fox news actually does go far enough about the islamic jihadists and their attacks, then I queried how fox news could dare put AL Sharpton on their network

    ReplyDelete
  88. AL Sharpton

    -- is an idiot


    an example of how far we have fallen as a society...

    ReplyDelete
  89. When this subject came up I was kind of conflicted about it. The more I think about it the less I think Assange should be prosecuted

    The man turned over classified material to Hesbollah and you don't think he should be prosecuted?

    ReplyDelete
  90. .

    Good Christ, Quirk, some people will possibly die over it.

    You dumb hick. You'd buy oceanfront property in Moscow if someone tried to sell it to you.

    It's like all of these guys from the TSA saying "these procedures have resulted in us stopping countless terrorist attacks."

    Well could you give some examples?

    "Sorry, that would jeapordize national security."

    or when a passenger jumped the underware bomber over Detroit and Napolitano said, "That shows the system works."

    Geez, I said I was conflicted. I'm open to being convinced to your side of the argument. The documents have been out for some time.

    Please show where what has been released in any way will result in an additional soldier being injured or killed.

    .

    ReplyDelete
  91. .

    You are the dumbest shit on the blog.

    An interesting comment and a sad commentary on the two of us.

    As you are aware, I have been reviewing past posts looking for Bosco Award material. I recall reading one post where you indicated your and my intellectual capacity were on par. (Don't recall the part about dumb but oh well...)

    .

    ReplyDelete
  92. .

    The man turned over classified material to Hesbollah and you don't think he should be prosecuted?

    I haven't seen anything in the news indicating he did that. I saw someone here had mentioned it.

    I already posted a couple times about Bush trying to pull back documents that had been released to the newspapers years ago and reclassifying them as "confidential" or secret.

    Classified? Who classified them that way? The US.

    Assange is not a US citizen. He didn't come into the US to get the info. He didn't hack a US facility. The info was given to him. What about the NYT? What about the other papers that published it? If you are going to punish Assange shouldn't there be lawsuits against papers who are doing it in your own country?

    No, they know better than to do it because SCOTUS shot down that argument with the Pentagon papers.

    Is Assange doing this because he's a patriot? No. Is he a great guy? No. he seems like a real prick. Is what he did illegal? I don't think so.

    I'll ask you the same question I asked Bob. You've seen many of the leaks that have been published.
    Which ones go beyone embarassment and endanger the troops. It's not like they laid out any troop dispositions. Hell more damaging stuff came out in Rolling Stone around the time McCrystal got dumped.

    .

    ReplyDelete
  93. .

    ...Questions?????...

    No Bob, I no longer need you to explain things to me. I have progressed way beyond your limited capacity.

    Just as in Forbidden Planet where Professor Morbius used the 'plastic educator' to draw upon the combined knowledge of the Krell to expand his mind, I by rummaging through the archives of the EB have drawn upon the combined genius of regulars here to expand mine.

    I view you now as a mere babe, a nit.

    .

    ReplyDelete
  94. It was humorous, even downright hilarious, for awhile: the admixture of straight commentary and nutty fucker cryptology.

    I need to open a bar.

    Just as soon as I remember how to write.

    And think of things worth writing about.

    The ideal watering hole.

    Oh, God, who does not want to walk through the door into that kind of place on a winter evening? Or any for that matter? Like walking into the perfect diner or cafe.

    Heaven.

    It's a suddenly pleasant thought this hellish holiday season.

    ReplyDelete
  95. What if I opened a bar and nobody came?




    Every real writer writes for herself.

    (Ayn Rand was wrong on this matter, too.)

    ReplyDelete
  96. It was humorous, even downright hilarious, for awhile: the admixture of straight commentary and nutty evil fucker cryptology.

    ReplyDelete
  97. I heard on the John Batchelor that Assange himself had boasted that he turned over classifed documents to Hesbollah, but I can find nothing to corroborate the story.

    I agree that as far as 'we' (that is us bar patrons) know nothing of great import has been released. But supposedly there are 250K cables. Have many have we read about? .01 percent?

    I agree, the NYTimes relentless coverage of Abu Graib was much more damaging. For that the NYTimes should die in infamy.

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  98. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  99. .

    Damn, looks like we got about 8 inches of snow so far and it's still falling. I snow blowed about as much as I can do for tonight. The wind's got to be blowing around 20 mph and gusting to 30-40.

    My face feels like it's frostbit from walking around with half an inch of snow on it for an hour.

    The dog on the other hand thinks it is great.

    Just warming up before I go back out to put the equipment away and take out the garbage.

    .

    ReplyDelete
  100. .

    I need to open a bar.

    Can I come?

    Could I get a drink there or is this one of those hoity toity neo-liberal places where they have fancy hats on the walls and talk about the latest bon mots from Pajamas Media and Andrew Sullivan?

    Better would be

    A caberet, geared towards counterculture bohemians, crossdressers, and scamps, smoky and dark, decadent, with strange alluring ambrosial fragrances drifting through the room muting the senses, absinthe and sambuca on every table, German music from the forties being sung by a sultry blonde in tuxedo, indistinct shadows and low sensual gutteral laughter arupting occasionally from the dark corners of the room.

    Woof.

    I'd like that.

    I mean if I could get in.

    .

    Sun Dec 12, 09:08:00 PM EST

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  101. "A caberet, geared towards counter culture bohemians, crossdressers, and scamps, smoky and dark, decadent, with strance alluring fragrances drifting through the room, absinthe and sambuca on every table, German music from the forties being sung by a sultry blonde in tuxedo."

    You're an absinthe and decadence kind of guy, I note.



    No, the more I think about it, the more inappropriate the term 'bar' is for any establishment of mine. Booze notwithstanding.

    And costume drama just isn't appealing. Human circuses are annoying.

    Maybe the manner of place I'm thinking of already exists. Patronized by a bunch of thoughtful, solitary types.

    But I doubt it.

    Actually what comes to mind is my book-scattered writing room, the dining room, in Belgium. Cheap, excellent beer. The light of the candelabra.

    And one very solitary type, writing it all out in longhand.

    : )



    Enjoy the snow. Or rather being inside where it's warm and looking out at it.

    Lovely stuff to look at. For awhile.

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  102. "Can I come?"

    Where can an Adept of the Rose Cross not go?

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  103. .

    Yours is a pleasant vision.

    In it's own way.

    You won't mind if I keep trying to draw you towards the abyss?


    .

    ReplyDelete
  104. .

    It appears you are less interested in a bar and more interested in a 'salon'.

    A very exclusive one.

    A pity.

    .

    ReplyDelete