Tuesday, October 13, 2009

Prince Turki al-Faisal's 7 Point Plan to Secure Afghanistan



Prince Turki al-Faisal was the longtime director general of Saudi Arabia's intelligence service, the Al Mukhabarat Al Aamah. He was also the Saudi ambassador to the United States.



This from a Saudi and long time Washington insider appears to be a reasoned multi-lateral approach to Afghanistan. Do you suppose that a newly minted Nobel Peace Laureate and long time multi-lateralist, in the middle of studying the Afghan situation, will pick up the script? Not that there is anything wrong with it. Or is there?

______________________________

OPINION

Seven steps to a secure Afghanistan


Christian Science Monitor

Prince Turki al-Faisal


RIYADH, SAUDI ARABIA - As President Obama considers what to do about Afghanistan, it is important that he hear perspectives from all sides concerned about that critical region.

In Riyadh, it is clear that the Taliban are not becoming more popular in Afghanistan, as some have claimed. Their record in government is well remembered by Afghans who, including large numbers of the Pashtun, suffered greatly at the hands of Mullah Omar's Taliban cohorts.

Nor are the Taliban a cohesive or uniform political party, with a chain of command and a political manifesto. Rather, any disaffected, rebellious, or aggrieved Afghan who overtly opposes the government by military means and otherwise has come to be identified as Taliban.

Nor is merely disabling Osama bin Laden enough, as some suggest. He has become not only the symbol of opposition to the world order, in general, and the US, in particular, but he is looked upon by disaffected youth – and not just Muslims – as the indomitable, untouchable, and indestructible Robin Hood. Even if he did not organize and execute terrorist acts, the fact that he survives, every day, reinforces that appeal and adds to his charisma. Bringing him to account is a necessity, not a choice, whether by capture or by death.

What should Mr. Obama and the US do?

  • First, overcome the misguided handling of Afghan President Hamid Karzai, who was initially shunned and denigrated by the administration, forcing him to reach out to unsavory politicos and "warlords" in order to win the recent elections. If there were a viable opposition to him, then you could undermine him. But there is not. Abdullah Abdullah, President Karzai's main opponent in the election, is a Tajik, and in Afghan terms will not be accepted to lead the country by either the Pashtuns or the Uzbeks, the two largest components of Afghanistan's tribal structure. Mr. Abdullah's "westerly ways" further undermined his credibility among nationalists. Once the commission investigating the election fraud declares its conclusions, the US should move on and concentrate on setting benchmarks for Karzai, especially on development projects.
  • Second, change the media theme from attacking the Taliban and calling them terrorists to concentrating on Al Qaeda and "foreign terrorists." By removing the stigma of terrorism from the Taliban, you can pursue meaningful negotiations with them. Mullah Omar has never enjoyed the full support of the Pashtuns. He is a lowly figure, in tribal terms, and he is blamed by many of them for the calamity that has befallen Afghanistan. Reaching out to the tribal leaders is what will move negotiations.
  • Third, fix the Durand Line. As long as this border drawn by the British is not fixed, Pakistan and Afghanistan will be at loggerheads, with suspicion between them being the rule. That is why Pakistan, in 1995, created the Taliban, because they wanted the Afghan Pashtuns to be on their side. A joint development project for the border area, announced by both Pakistan and Afghanistan and supported by the US and the world community, will direct people's eyes to the future, rather than the past.
  • Fourth, convene a meeting of the security-intelligence departments of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Russia, China, and Saudi Arabia to devise ways of eliminating Al Qaeda's leadership. China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia have a longstanding vendetta against Al Qaeda and will contribute intelligence and other resources to rid the world of this pestilence.
  • Fifth, push India and Pakistan to fix Kashmir. That is doable, once both countries see a determined effort by the US in that direction. Both countries are beholden to the US: Pakistan for the military and financial support it receives and India for the atomic energy agreement it has signed with the US. Saudi Arabia can play a supporting role because of the good relations it has with both and its standing in the Muslim world.
  • Sixth, having deployed extra military forces on the ground, make the terrorists their target, not the people. While Predators (drone aircraft) have killed a few terrorists, they have killed too many innocent civilians. Making sure that the intelligence is right is an imperative.
  • Seventh, take on the heroin trade. It is a challenge that can be met by a program that America used in the 1960s in Turkey, where heroin was extensively grown and processed. The US bought the entire crop from the farmers directly and allowed them to plant alternative crops for their livelihood. There is no more heroin trade in Turkey.

Resolution, reflection, and determination are the key characteristics of Obama's personality. He should stick with them. As in all difficult issues, when people see these qualities on display, most of them will be persuaded to follow.

When the Pashtuns, among whom Mr. bin Laden hides, see the determination to get him, they will calculate differently from when they see that nobody cares. When Karzai and Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari see resolution in Obama's demands for benchmarks and for settling the border dispute between their countries, they will adhere.

When India and Pakistan feel the strength of the American push on Kashmir, they will come along.

When Russia, China, and Saudi Arabia sense a seriousness of purpose on eliminating the Al Qaeda leadership, they will gladly provide whatever support they can.

When the US's financial commitments on development are met, the people of Afghanistan will regain their confidence in America's word.

Mr. Obama, when your advisers or your interlocutors tell you that you can't do this or that, just say to them: "Yes, we can."




105 comments:

  1. THE CALL OF HISTORY

    “The legislation won its first Republican support when Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine broke ranks with her party, saying she was answering the call of history.”

    I just love talk like that: “The call of the wild…The call of the commode…The call of history…too cool…

    The simpleminded notion that same people who cannot fight and win two wars against medieval gangsters or balance a bank’s income statement can run the nation’s health care delivery system is akin to zealous Marxism.

    ReplyDelete
  2. The US administration has said that before acting on General McChrystal's proposals, they must evaluate input from a number of sources/stakeholders such as the State Department, neighboring governments and our allies.

    I'm sure that the Prince has offered his seven-point plan to President Obama. I am not sure why he has chosen to publish it. It may be that this will be part of Obama's new plan and the Prince wants credit for it. Or perhaps Obama has not warmly received the Prince's plan and al-Faisal is seeking to influence opinion.

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  3. I wonder what the price will be for the proffered Saudi cooperation.

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  4. maybe if the Saudis would stop funding radical jihadism and support for murderous arab & islamic radicals we could see peace...

    but since the USA provides billions and billions in support for Arabia i guess rufus's and rat's taxes PAY for these radicals....

    after all since every jaffa orange purchased by the USA is actually funding for settlements, direct aid and gas purchases from arabia is no less supportive of terror...

    ReplyDelete
  5. Not me, Bubba. I put American corn in my tank. How about you?

    The first thing to understand about all Saudis: If their lips are moving, They're lying.

    Boiled down to its simplest: give some real estate to our allies, the Pakis, and spend a lot of money (burn oil.)

    I'm not interested.

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  6. Allen: “The legislation won its first Republican support when Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine broke ranks with her party, saying she was answering the call of history.”

    She reminds me of the streetwalkers on Pacific Highway with a cell phone in their ear when they're not flat on their back.

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  7. rufus said...
    Not me, Bubba. I put American corn in my tank. How about you?

    No man is an island bubba....

    you consume OIl from the middle east every time you buy something wrapped in plastic...

    so your "not me bubba" is bullcrap...

    your few gallons of corn alcohol doesnt absolve you of your support for the arab settlements across the globe that foster terror...

    me? I would proudly support the israelis settlements that give the world drip irrigation, new IT advances, medical miracles & more..

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  8. You are buying that processed "corn" from the same folks who do business with the Arabs, all day, everyday...and "money is fungible".

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  9. That is two of the silliest posts I've seen, yet. Bullshit from two people who "talk the talk," but don't "walk the walk."

    Oil (gasoline/diesel) keeps the terrorist world afloat. I use as little as possible. You two, DON'T.

    And, more, and more, of the products you buy are wrapped in plastic made from corn, and other biologics.

    You want me to, through my taxes, support YOUR Religion, but you won't spend the money to buy a Flexfuel Car to deny income to your enemies.

    What Horseshit.

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  10. Rufus:
    Oil (gasoline/diesel) keeps the terrorist world afloat. I use as little as possible. You two, DON'T.

    Spoken like a man full of shit....

    I have FOR YEARS run 80-90% pure soy oil in my diesel benz....

    I have for YEARS advocated for geo-thermic heat exchange in our local community...

    I have for YEARS spoken out 7 lobbied against opec oil

    so please rufus... learn some facts before you speak..

    and again...

    AMerica DOESNT not support the building of settlements in the west bank...

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  11. rufus continues...

    And, more, and more, of the products you buy are wrapped in plastic made from corn, and other biologics.


    So what about all that STUFF you actually BUY that contain plastics made in China? All made from corn?

    hardly...

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  12. Saudi Arabia must be very close in its spending and revenue. Saudi Arabia is trying to enlist other oil-producing countries to support the concept of wealthy countries who reduce their oil consumption paying for the privledge to guess who? The oil producers.

    Press reports suggest that the Sauds will press the issue at international negotiations in Copenhagen.

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  13. I have FOR YEARS run 80-90% pure soy oil in my diesel benz....

    And, after all this time you mention THIS. hmm. Okay, that's good.

    Now, buy a Chevy.

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  14. The Chinese made stuff I buy is wrapped in the same plastic as the Chinese made stuff you buy.

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  15. rufus:

    And, after all this time you mention THIS. hmm. Okay, that's good.



    Maybe your NEW here... But it's been spoken about many, many times...

    Maybe you just missed it...

    as for a chevy? Not a chance...

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  16. Never listen to what the Saudis say. Pay attention, only, to what they do.

    The Sauds claim to have four, or five million bpd of "spare" capacity. They probably have between one, and two mbpd. It might be less. It might be, essentially, zero.

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  17. No, you'd rather drive a GERMAN car. All the time whining about the "holocaust," and lobbying for money for Israel.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Why don't you lobby the "Germans?" Oh, yeah, they told you to go fuck yourselves, right?

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  19. rufus,

    Unless you are a god, you have absolutely no idea about how I drive, since I have never addressed this part of my life.

    Your criticism is, then, childish drivel...as usual...let the profanity begin...

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  20. Yep evil arab oil does infect much of the planet...

    rufus, so your comment about America supporting israel building settlements is crap....

    period...

    America spends hundreds of billions a year on evil arab oil

    America spends hundreds of billions a year on iraq, egypt, jordan, afghanistan both in aid and rebuilding

    America spends 1.5 billion a year on direct AID to the palestinians (900 million just for gaza)

    America reduced to ZERO all economic aid to years several years ago

    America DOES in fact help Israel with military aid 3 billion a year, of which 75% is spent in the USA. This is not unique, AMerica gives military aid via nato (110 Billion a year)

    America also spends untold BILLIONS a year protecting opec oil routes & asian sea routes for trade...

    and yet it's only Israel that is singled out...

    and the aid aint even DIRECT....

    The USA actually deducted (from it's aid package) any money the Israeli government spent on helping settlements just to negate the very point you are failing to make...

    I guess you dont remember this: Bush had opposed the loan guarantees as long as Israel continued settlement in the West Bank and Gaza. The president finally agreed to a loan guarantee package in August 1992, requiring as a set-off any funds Israel spent to build housing or infrastructure in the territories.

    But you dont object to MIILLONS of dollars to resettle IN America Palestinians from gaza and iraq?

    proportion man, proportion....

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  21. Allen, you made fun of me with this post:

    You are buying that processed "corn" from the same folks who do business with the Arabs, all day, everyday...and "money is fungible".

    Then, you realized your ground is untenable, and resort to ad homs. You lose.

    ReplyDelete
  22. rufus said...
    No, you'd rather drive a GERMAN car. All the time whining about the "holocaust," and lobbying for money for Israel.

    -------------------
    I didnt drive a German car until after I went to Germany and Israel... i guess Americans should never use any german or Japan products?

    As for WHINING about the "holocaust"... hmmm please remind me WHERE i have ever whined about it? I take the holocaust as a lesson, be armed and dont trust your enemies.

    As for lobbying for MONEY for Israel? WHERE have I ever said I do that?

    I applauded Bibi's REQUEST to cut off all economic aid to israel

    I lobby for anti-terror legislation, syrian accountability act, iranian accountability act etc...

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  23. Don't misrepresent my stance, WIO. I hate aid to the Palestinians as much as anyone alive.

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  24. rufus,

    Fortress America is (if it ever really was) a relic.

    Again, you know nothing of my private life; therefore, your criticism was typically "silly". Worse, it was knowingly untruthful.

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  25. Our "greatest" success over there has been the "Anbar Awakening." I don't know how much we had to do with it. If anything.

    However, I think we need to Study it.

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  26. rufus you say "money is fungible"


    so if you are correct, then you are guilty of supporting the terrorists... you consume oil made products, your military (and mine, but you dont think i am an American) consumes opec oil....

    you just cant get your mind around the fact that Israel is not supported by America in building homes and businesses in the west bank, historic jewish lands.

    i support the crazy idea that jews should be allowed, with their own cash, to build and develop land in the west bank and jerusalem. Just as the arabs legally buy land and build so should jews be allowed to do so..

    but the fact is America supports and assists racist, anti-semitic, ant-christian, anti-western governments of the islamic world. It is illegal for jews to own land or businesses in most of the islamic world, it is a capital crime to sell land to a jew in several of these countries that we, America directly support.

    Again, if Israelis wish to buy lands and build a 7-11 why should they not have that right?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Allen,

    WIO callem "Me" out with this:

    but since the USA provides billions and billions in support for Arabia i guess rufus's and rat's taxes PAY for these radicals....

    I pointed out that I, at least, don't support the Jihadists with my fuel purchases.

    Thereupon, you made fun of me for driving a flexfuel car. I responded that, at least, "I" was doing something.

    Now, you are calling ME Childish, and Silly.

    ReplyDelete
  28. rufus said...
    Don't misrepresent my stance, WIO. I hate aid to the Palestinians as much as anyone alive


    Do you realize that it is and was the policy of the USA to not allow Jews fleeing russia (and other nations) to come to America? (i fully support that policy btw) And do you realize while we as a nation prohibit Jews from coming to America to seek refuge (since israel exists) we actually now seek arabs and moslems (since LBJ) to be a major portion of legal immigration. Thus islamic immigration has now surged to hugh levels, changing many USA cities beyond imagination.

    Rather than getting your panties in a wad about a few hundred thousand jews living in high density apartments clustered around Jerusalem and Ariel, building up and not out (to appease the growing arab power in the world) You should be pissed that the current president of the USA is actually IMPORTING hamas family members and Saddam Hussein's palestinian brown shirts to live in the SETTLEMENTS in the USA...

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  29. They do have that capacity, in the United States, man of "misdirection". What their "rights" are in other locales, not really my concern.

    US foreign aid, direct and indirect should be going to those that are starving, not those that wage wars of oppression and occupation.

    Even if they are waging those wars against their own residents.
    Especially so.

    The Eastern Europeons that have migrated to the Levant do not qualify as needy.

    That's a fact.

    Those that buy German products, new or used, support those that manned the watch towers of Dachau.
    Another fact of life.
    Learn it, live it, love it!

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  30. And do you realize while we as a nation prohibit Jews from coming to America to seek refuge (since israel exists)

    This is a New One on me. I think I need to see some Proof on this.

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  31. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  32. The US allows immigrants in, the allocations are made upon country of origin, not religion.

    The idea that Jews are prohibited from immigrating to the US is a lie. Pure and simple.

    The fact that the Swedish boyfriend cannot freely immigrate to the US is not because he is a Pagan.

    In fact the religion of the prospective immigrant is not even one of the questions on the form.

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  33. DR: Those that buy German products, new or used, support those that manned the watch towers of Dachau.

    That's like saying when I joined the Navy I was helping defend those who interned the Japanese in 1942. Give me a break. The past is the past. Do good now, and you are good.

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  34. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  35. The proof that Jews are not prohibited from immigrating to the US, allen's guru, the fellow that immigrated to the US from South Africa. He is Jewish and an immigrant, both.

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  36. You were defending the Rapists of Nanking, Ms T, from their now empowered victims.

    Make no mistake about that.

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  37. The past is with us, today.

    To deny that is to deny both history and reality.

    ReplyDelete
  38. I get tired of these arguments, but I wonder if MLD is asleep, if her toes are curled, if her legs are crossed, if her breathing is soft, o I wonder about the rise and fall of her sweet chest.

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  39. I wont even try to respond to rat's fiction.

    waste of finger movement...

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  40. That's right, man of "misdirection", any response would be a waste of your time.

    The facts and realities are against you.

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  41. Anon (Bobal?): I wonder if MLD is asleep, if her toes are curled, if her legs are crossed, if her breathing is soft, o I wonder about the rise and fall of her sweet chest.

    Flower: [about two birds fluttering around] "Well! What's the matter with them?"

    Thumper: "Why are they acting that way?"

    Friend Owl: "Why, don't you know? They're twitterpated."

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  42. DR: The past is with us, today. To deny that is to deny both history and reality.

    That's a restatement of the liberal whine that "Society made me what I am" or "My father's abuse made me into a pedophile". Bullcrap. Not by word or deed may it be implied that human beings operate on the level of animals, by instinct or in reaction to crap that happened before. We make our lives anew from moment to moment, it's called free will.

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  43. No, Ms T, history is not an excuse for your behaviors, but your position does give lie to the 3,000 year old claim to title that the Eastern Europeons have utilized in the Levant.

    But to deny that the US Navy is defending the Japanese from Charlie Chi-com, why that is just laughable.

    To deny that the Rape of Nanking is relevant, that just denies the relevancy of the Holocaust to the current political situation in the Whirled.

    So, your argument is that the Isrealis are just using worn out liberal catechisms to further their political cause, here in the US.

    I'd agree, totally!

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  44. Heh at least somebody understands the healthcare deal.

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  45. rat: but your position does give lie to the 3,000 year old claim to title that the Eastern Europeons have utilized in the Levant.

    Rt loves to IGNORE that their were non-european jews living in the lands of current israel for thousands of years...

    not to mention the 650 thousand jews from the arab world that were expelled and driven to live with in those cut down borders of the nation of Israel in 1948

    rat take a page from the palestinians that israel is a colonial enterprise...

    the fact that jews today live there and buy land and build on these lands is what rat is pissed about...

    rat views "israel" and a land of occupation...

    What nation do the Israel's squat on?

    Please tell us oh smart one...

    The last "occupier" was the UK and before that the Ottomans....

    So really what nation is Israel squatting on?

    In the early part of this century, the League of Nations called all of the area, Palestine, the National homeland of the Jews....

    No rat your a hypocrite....

    America occupies land that others dispute, as does almost every nation in the world but your wrath is only for (as you say) "ISREAL"

    go look in the mirror and say hi to ass...

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  46. No, mr "misdirection", it is just that bob disagrees about that. I'd agree that the US took a large swath of Mexico, by force, with a series of military engagements and even two real wars.

    Counting the Texican insurrection against Santa Anna's attempt to enforce Federale anti-slavery laws, there.

    And that those historic realities must be taken into account when attempting to forge an immigration and assimilation solution, here.

    As to the Levant and the Eastern Europeons, there, they will lose their dominance over the political scene. The last influx of Russians proving the point.

    I've read, here, that the "true believers", in Isreal, do not even think those immigrants were religiously qualified.

    Only immigration and Jim Crow can maintain the Europeon position in the Levant. While there are ever fewer Europeon folks that want to make the move to the shores of the eastern Med.

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  47. If you paid any attention to issues discussed, here, that did not revolve around Isreal and Muslims, why then you'd know that you misrepresent my position concerning the US and its' rise to continental dominance.

    Why I think that, eventually, Mexico will be absorbed into a Continental Union, dominated by US elites.

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  48. I just bpught a copy of Paul Johnson's "A History of the American People" and on page one he says--

    "All nations are born in war, conquest and crime, usually concealed by the obscurity of a distant past. The United States, from its earliest colonial times, won its title-deeds in the full blaze of recorded history"


    Phoenix, Arizona is American occupied territory, and the people there are better off for it.

    It beats hunting and gathering in the damned hot desert.

    I like air conditioning.

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  49. Exactly right, bob. You used to argue against that position, but the power of the printed and bound page changed your mind.

    The difference that Mr "misdirection" fails to take account of, however, is that the US extends FULL and in some cases extended "rights and privileges" to those that once held title.

    We do not blockade them, or not allow them full and free access to our society and its' benefits.

    In some cases we extend to those original title holders monopoly business franchises, in the Gaming Industry.

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  50. One branch of my family lived in the Southeastern United States for, at least, 10,000 years before the Viking/Dutch branch showed up.

    The Viking/Dutch branch whupped the Cherokee branch's ass, and now we have, as the man said, electric heat, and air conditioning.

    I, also, like electric heat, and air conditioning.

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  51. Maleeha Lodhi served as Pakistan’s 
ambassador to the United States and the United Kingdom.

    He has his "Plan", for US in Afpakistan, too

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  52. "And that those historic realities must be taken into account when attempting to forge an immigration and assimilation solution, here."
    ---
    A College Professor could not have said it better.
    Meanwhile, real people, like Rufus and al-Bob focus on sanity, such as admitting the fact that modern folk supplanting stone age folk is fact, an obvious evolution, as opposed to
    " those historic realities "
    from the fever swamps of academe, and the MSM.

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  53. For al-Anon,
    Chomp Chomp
    A Long, Melancholy Roar

    On returning home, I did some reading. I discovered that between 1990 and 2004, lions attacked 815 people in Tanzania, killing 563. Some of the victims were pulled out of bed during the night after lions forced their way inside huts. Between January 2000 and March 2004, crocodiles in Namibia attacked 35 people, killing 23. In the 34 months from January 2005 to October 2007, leopards in the Indian state of Kashmir attacked 18 people, killing 16. In the Sundarban swamps of Bangladesh, tigers killed at least 20 people last year. Dig around, and you can also find records of deaths from attacks by bears, cougars, sharks and a number of other wild beasts.

    It’s hard to imagine how terrifying such a death must be. To be asleep in bed and to wake to hear a rustling sound, to see an animal leaping, to feel its breath on your face — think of the sweat, the panic, the contraction of your gut, the pounding of your heart, the gasping screams.

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  54. You used to argue against that position

    Vell, not sure I did. But maybe.

    My outlook has been that before the coming of the whites, there was no law whatsoever.

    And, there really wasn't, just mores, traditional ways.

    Now any body can sue anbody, and you best not lay a hand on a fellow citizen, and we are all citizens, or you will have hell to pay.

    I think this is an advance.

    You only have to go back a few generations in my past, you'll find savages.

    In your past too, I imagine.

    My Jewish lawyer is now retired, I've got a lady lawyer now, young, spunky, bright. Five years out of law school. She is handling my rezoning petition for me.

    She is all fired up, enthused, really starting to get a grip on legal stuff, it's wonderful to watch.

    She is finding her legs.

    This is taking longer than I figured, and looks like it will be decided by the newly elected city council, vote in November.

    This may have been a mistake on my part, you never know what you are going to get. I may should have tried to shove it on faster. On the other hand, it just takes time. Takes time for all the neighborhood meetings, all the paperwork to get passed around.

    I think I'll get more or less what I want, but, you never know, for sure, till it's done.

    I'm gonna make it through life without ever making a personal appearance before the council!

    I got a lady lawyer to talk for me.

    A generation ago, we didn't have any lady lawyers!

    She is really a nice girl, good talker, getting her wings.

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  55. We should all live in Wigwams due to the "historic realities."

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  56. Obama’s proclamation of strategy will tell the Afghans and the Taleban how long we intend to stay. No other rhetorical assurances are required. So, when Obama announces his decision to the American public and the world, it will be the ultimate litmus test of the earnestness of America’s commitment. Otherwise, he should listen to his own advice when he said about Bush’s war in Iraq: “Once we had driven the bus into the ditch, there were only so many ways we could get out.”

    The question is, who’s making the decision initially to drive the bus into the ditch?

    If we have no intention of making a long-term commitment for building Afghanistan into a stable polity, we need not increase the level of our troops. Obama should think about listening to his own advice of not driving the country into a ditch or off a cliff.


    Ehsan Ahrari is Professor of Security Studies at the Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies (APCSS) in Honolulu, HI.

    h/t Small Wars Journal

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  57. No, doug, we should not all live in wigwams.
    We should all live with air conditioning.

    To deny some one that, based upon any condition other than economic, in a free society ... well then it is not "free".

    Mr Bibi said in November before his election to PM that he'd remove the economic impediments that the Isreali had instituted upon Pali society.

    So the Eastern Europeons have kept the Palestinians from excercising the right to buy their own air conditioners. The Isreali maintain a state of war against the Palis with their continued naval blockade of Gaza.

    The bottle rockets have not been falling in Isreal, since the Gaza incursion, but the blockade remains, regardless.

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  58. Britain's mission in Afghanistan has become increasingly unpopular as casualties mount.

    A poll released Wednesday found 36 percent of respondents thought British troops should leave Afghanistan, up from 29 percent in mid-September.

    ...

    British lawmakers returned this week from a three-month summer break, and Brown will open his weekly question session by reading out the names of 37 soldiers killed in Afghanistan during the period. A total of 221 U.K. military personnel have died in Afghanistan since the war there began in late 2001, according to the Ministry of Defense.


    Troops to Afghanistan

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  59. Well, bob, I'd say that there was civilization and law from San Fransisco to San Diego, then inland to Tucson and Santa Fe, long before any claim to the area was made by the United States.

    Long before there was a United States.

    That change in title is a perceived as a major part of Mexican history, by Mexicans. While being minor part of ours, glossed over and forgotten by a liberal America.

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  60. You want to live in Tijuana?

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  61. The tribe of merit, in the Southwest, were the Navajo. They were the dominant tribe, but beaten down by the Spanish/Mexicans.
    By the time the US took control of the area, circa 1849, the Navajo were already a beaten people.

    Colonel Christopher "Kit" Carson hammered home US dominance in 1863 with a terror campaign that culminated in "The Long Walk"

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  62. Thought about it, seriously, in 1986. Certainly held benefits over living in San Diego.

    That they've lost control of the criminal element, now. That might make it dicey, but I'd not want to live in Detroit, either.

    There is a large US winter contingent that lives in San Carlos, Mexico. Right next to Guaymas on the map.

    As an associate that lives there said to me:
    "It's the land of milk and honey".
    But then again he is a retired US Army officer.

    ReplyDelete
  63. The Cherokee had a very "lawful" society, also. They didn't believe in "property," as such, (but, they surely didn't want "other" tribes intruding upon "their" hunting grounds.

    They were pretty strict on "Criminal" law. It was pretty much "an eye for an eye" type of a deal.

    Here's what confused the whites, somewhat. If a Cherokee was killed his family, with the help of his tribe, if need be, was expected to get revenge.

    If the offending murderer was handy he was offed. If not, someone in his family was done in. If that couldn't be ascertained it would have to be someone from the offender's village. Or tribe.

    If the murderer was a "White" man another "White" man (or woman) would do. Thus, many, seemingly random, acts of violence were, actually, acts of vengeance carried out in accordance with "Cherokee" Law.

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  64. DR said,

    "Mr Bibi said in November before his election to PM that he'd remove the economic impediments that the Isreali had instituted upon Pali society."

    I would like to buy some of what you are smoking!

    ReplyDelete
  65. DR quoted,

    " A total of 221 U.K. military personnel have died in Afghanistan since the war there began in late 2001."

    Gosh...But that's why they aren't called the Peace Corps.

    ...wonder how many Brownies and Girl Scouts have been killed in cookie related mishaps since Nov 2001?

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  66. Netanyahu, who was credited with turning around the Israeli economy when he was finance minister from 2003 to 2005, said he would ensure that the same happened to the Palestinians as part of his economic peace plan.

    ...

    ... He proposed shifting the focus to the economy to make it easier to reach an agreement later on.

    "What has been tried until now with negotiations that try to reach a deal on 'Jerusalem or bust' has led to failure, and it will again and again," Netanyahu told the crowd. "Economic development doesn't solve problems, but it mitigates them and makes a stronger partner on the other side, because it gives them something to live for."


    Now the only way the Isreali can ensure Pali development is to admit they hold the power to do so. The roadblocks, check points and blockades that are a normal part of Isreali occupation hinder economic opportunities.

    Making the Palis a subjugated people. Dependent upon their occupiers for their very survival, water and power.

    By design.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Nov 19, 2008 21:50 | Updated Nov 20, 2008 9:41
    Netanyahu vows rapid Palestinian economic growth
    By GIL HOFFMAN

    ReplyDelete
  68. Ruf, I defer to your knowledge on such matters.

    I have read though, that some of the Cherokee fought on the side of the South, and kept slaves.

    My knowledge is not very good down your way.

    What I object to in the discussion about our common past, is, it was very different, it was not all one thing.

    What happened out here in North Idaho was different than what happened in other parts of the now United States.

    I think we need more, and better written, histories.

    The only thing I really know about our history is what took place here.

    I know, for instance, that the Nez Perce, were not even really a 'tribe', until the whites showed up, and went mining up by Orofino.

    Before that, they were just a riverine people, for the most part, very few of them, with a few villages, and head men, and had not a common identity until the shock of the whites hit them.

    They didn't think of themselves as a common group until we came.

    This is a kind of startling idea, but I think it is true.

    Nowadays, they are fully into our common society, fully a part of our common endeavor, whatever that is.

    Some of the old tales handed down to me is, the whole area was vacant, especially up on the prairies, where the white farmers got a grip.

    That is the truth as far as I know it at this time.

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  69. DR,

    Everything BiBi hoped(s) to accomplish requires "peaceful" Arab support. How did that work out? Keep reading the JPost.

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  70. He's had their peaceful support, but is blind to it.

    The rocket attacks have fallen to vandalism levels, no longer part of an active terror campaign by the Gazians. The incursion was a success in that regard, but that success is ignored, the current "good" behavior not rewarded.

    But regardless of the Arab support, Bibi is admitting that the lack of economic opportunity afforded the Palis is accountable to Isreali actions.

    The Isreali will not allow air conditioning, to use a metaphor.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Bob, I hadn't read that about the Cherokee, but I don't doubt for a minute that some did that.

    People is people. The Cherokee weren't any better, nor much worse, than most.

    The Cherokee were good hunters, and, surprisingly, pretty good farmers. As far as I know, the American Indian was "Fertilizing" crops long before the Europeans.

    Their "civil" society wasn't nearly as constrained as, say, the Europeans; but they were operating in an atmosphere of a lot more "elbow room."

    ReplyDelete
  72. rats states with loud authority...

    The bottle rockets have not been falling in Isreal, since the Gaza incursion, but the blockade remains, regardless.



    ANd yet YESTERDAY a rocket was shot INTO Israel from gaza...

    and Gilad Shalit is still being held hostage with no access to the international red cross...

    and egypt shares a border with the gaza strip in which rafah is divided...

    hmmm... can only see one side of the border?

    ReplyDelete
  73. -As far as I know, the American Indian was "Fertilizing" crops long before the Europeans.

    I've read that too.

    We need more good histories.

    ReplyDelete
  74. The Egyptian side closed in agreement with the Isreali.

    But the Egyptians do not want those folk either. Not after forty years of Isreali oppression has radicalized them.

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  75. rat:

    But the Egyptians do not want those folk either. Not after forty years of Isreali oppression has radicalized them.



    nonsense...

    the moslem brotherhood was INVENTED in EGYPT

    Arafat WAS AN EGYPTIAN

    Gaza CONTROLLED the strip and used it to attack Israel from 1948-1967

    Try as you must to blame Israel for everything you cannot...

    The original peoples of Israel are Jews, they built the Temple, Masada & Jerusalem..

    They are not occupiers the arabs are the squatters..

    The real thruth? Israel has a pluralistic country with 20% of it's people being arab, they have full citizenship rights..

    Just because the palestinians refuse to accept a state of their own is NOT Israel's fault or issue...

    It's the Arab world's..

    The PLO was formed in the early 1960 before one square in of gaza, jerusalem or the west bank were liberated...

    Now that Israel, in seeking peace, has returned the sinai (two times), gaza, SOuthern lebanon, 50% of the west bank and offered up a total of 97% of the west bank and shared control of jerusalem and a 4% land swap to connect gaza with the west bank people like you still blame israel for everything...

    I guess when hamas was flinging palestinians (fatah_ off of the roof tops last year that too was israel's fault...

    Israelis have a right to a Nation in Israel, regardless if you approve or not...

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  76. WiO,

    DR does us good by offering educable moments, such as that last exchange about Arab radicalization by Israel. Next we will get the DR version of the radicalization of young Moe of Deseret. The guy is as funny as Mel Brooks, I tellya.

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  77. What is missing from the Prince's plan and what has gone unnoticed here is the predicate of peace between Israel and the Palestinian dwelling Arabs (PDA).

    Does anyone recall a peace proposal or plan of action, calling for the struggle of Muslim against Muslim, that did not contain the precondition of the Israeli surrender of land?

    ReplyDelete
  78. That you two want to deny the effects of 40 years of Isreali mis-rule of the Gaza and West Bank, and then blame the victims of Isreali racism.

    Typical of the professional victims you fellas represent.

    ReplyDelete
  79. ...but I wonder if MLD is asleep, if her toes are curled, if her legs are crossed, if her breathing is soft, o I wonder about the rise and fall of her sweet chest.

    Ummmm, Bob...

    Something else to wonder about is why your dear wife's fiddling with your old computer managed to take it down.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Hey, I see the "All Jews all the time" meme has resurfaced at the EB. Who woulda thunk it?

    At any rate, with regard to al-Faisal's article, he makes some interesting points; and one could almost take him seriously if he had stopped after offering up his plan. Unfortunately, he closes out his article with such a polyannish flourish that one has to laugh.

    al Faisal confidently assures us:

    "Resolution, reflection, and determination are the key characteristics of Obama's personality...As in all difficult issues, when people see these qualities on display, most of them will be persuaded to follow.

    When the Pashtuns, among whom Mr. bin Laden hides, see the determination to get him, they will calculate differently from when they see that nobody cares.

    When Karzai and Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari see resolution in Obama's demands for benchmarks and for settling the border dispute between their countries, they will adhere.

    When India and Pakistan feel the strength of the American push on Kashmir, they will come along.

    When Russia, China, and Saudi Arabia sense a seriousness of purpose on eliminating the Al Qaeda leadership, they will gladly provide whatever support they can.

    When the US's financial commitments on development are met, the people of Afghanistan will regain their confidence in America's word.

    Mr. Obama, when your advisers or your interlocutors tell you that you can't do this or that, just say to them: "Yes, we can."

    Right, and when pigs fly, WiO and the Rat will lie down like the lion and lamb and the Dems will actually pull $500 billion from medicare "fraud and waste" without affecting current benefits.

    ReplyDelete
  81. and the Dems will actually pull $500 billion from medicare "fraud and waste" without affecting current benefits.

    Uh, huh.

    In the meantime, I've set aside my Two Grand. Recommend you do the same.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Rush Limbaugh has been removed from the St Louis Rams bid group.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Only a Liberal could cast Rush Limbaugh in a sympathetic light.

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  84. Israeli racism? Hmmm...CIA Factbook 2009

    Egypt
    Ethnic groups:
    Egyptian 99.6%, other 0.4%

    Religions:
    Muslim 90%, Coptic 9%, other Christian 1%


    Jordan
    Ethnic groups:
    Arab 98%, Circassian 1%, Armenian 1%

    Religions:
    Sunni Muslim 92%, Christian 6%, other 2%



    Syria
    Ethnic groups:
    Arab 90.3%, Kurds, Armenians, and other 9.7%

    Religions:
    Sunni Muslim 74%, other Muslim 16%, Christian 10%


    Lebanon
    Ethnic groups:
    Arab 95%, Armenian 4%, other 1%

    Religions:
    Muslim 59.7%, Christian 39%, other 1.3%


    Israel
    Ethnic groups:
    Jewish 76.4%, non-Jewish (mostly Arab) 23.6%

    Religions:
    Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9%

    ReplyDelete
  85. All Jooz, All the Time

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  86. Let's have a vote, and we'll petition Deuce to change the name of the blog.

    ReplyDelete
  87. rufus,

    You would not sleep all warm and fuzzy absent a place to get away with "big nose" comments. You love this stuff; that's why you behave outlandishly.

    ReplyDelete
  88. desert rat said...
    That you two want to deny the effects of 40 years of Isreali mis-rule of the Gaza and West Bank, and then blame the victims of Isreali racism.

    lol...

    too funny...

    The west bank & gaza today, after 40 years of israeli "misrule" has the one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the arab world...

    has more universities and schools by unimaginable %'s than it did in 1967

    has more paved roads, sewers, power plants, hospitals than MOST of the arab world per capita

    really rat your stretching...

    must be nice living inside your palio/victim mentality...

    I see you dont talk about how the arabs that live in the west bank and gaza lived under egyptian and jordan rule?

    I see you dont mention that in the last 40 years the actual number of arabs LIVING in the west bank and gaza has tripled? So much for starving to death and genocide....

    No you dont argue facts, you argue with palestinian victimhood...

    Dont mention how israel left behind 1 billion dollars in infrastructure, green houses, electrical, sewage and buildings in gaza.... Most stripped bare and destroyed within weeks of the complete israeli withdraw...

    Really rat, your hate is showing...

    ReplyDelete
  89. Again, Mr "misdirection" by passes the issues and talks about me.

    Why?

    Because on the facts, he's been proven wrong, time and again.
    His lies about US immigration policy exposed, just today.

    I do hate Europeons that are posers for freedom, when in reality they're just another form of Europeon authoritarians from the last century, in a land far from their own, but considerably nicer.

    ReplyDelete
  90. All this talk of racial purity and genetic superiority, thought I was reading NAZI propaganda.

    But it was only allen.

    ReplyDelete
  91. DR,

    Re: racial purity

    You need to revisit my posting of links to Jews of China, India, Africa, et al. Jews come in every racial configuration. Jews make no claim to racial purity; indeed, the Messiah will come of lineages that under other circumstances would be highly dubious. (Hint: Have a look at Ruth and Boaz.)

    By the way, when you thought you read me of “racial purity”, were you using a bong?

    ReplyDelete
  92. You've claim Jewishness to be a race, with blood ties back to Abraham. If those ties are not there, then the Orthodox deny the Jewishness of the wanna be.

    As mat described with regards the latest round of immigrants to the lands in dispute.

    So, while you may not have made claims to the racial purity of Jewishness, the High Gurus at the foot of the Temple Mount have.

    You not being the only mouthpiece of the Isreal lobby.

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  93. DR,

    SOME Orthodox rabbis deny Jewishness to any person born to a NON-JEWISH MOTHER. Consequently, according to these fellows, I could have Jewish ancestory all the way back to Abraham and still not be a Jew if my father impregnated a non-Jewish woman (my mother).

    Abraham has nuttin' to do wit it, see.

    I have got to get some of that dope and a ride on the Magic Bus.

    ReplyDelete
  94. His lies about US immigration policy exposed, just today.


    bullshit...

    the USA prevented Jews from coming to America, instead pushed them to Israel...

    Just because you met ONE jew somewhere doesnt mean I lied...

    try learning something...

    oh that's right, you cant...

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  95. "Misdirection" lies, again and again, then lies about his lying.

    You said Jews were not allowed to immigrate to the US. That is a bald face lie meant to demean the United States.

    You wallow with the pigs.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Thanks for providing a great resource.I will definitely link to your site from my home page.
    http://immigrationprofessionals.info

    ReplyDelete
  97. Associatedcontentnetwork.com Article directory free for publish your press release and articles !

    ReplyDelete
  98. am i allowed to take a car insurance company to small claims court? The insurer agency turned down my claim, (I would take the responsible driver to small claims nevertheless , I've got no address to serve them or send a requirement letter). One other driver was at fault however his particular insurance company states that there is really a difference in this statements to make sure they need to take the word of their insured vs. my word. I think they acted in undesirable trust and did not perform a proper investigation would this manifest as a valid claim in small claims court? I have to use the the culprit drivers insurance company (not my own) to small claims with the damages to my car.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Bu sohbet sitesi tek kelimeyle Muhtes. Sohbet Etmek ve Arkadas, Olmak için Arad? Seçmenin Faydalar?

    ReplyDelete