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Sunday, August 24, 2008

What has Russia Done for Us Lately? Not Much.


The Democrats keep touting the benefits of negotiations and one-on-one communications as a panacea for all that ails the political world. Does it work? The short answer is "maybe and maybe not."

It has done little with Russia. The Bush design to work through personal channels with Vladimir Putin is a wreck, but no one can fault George Bush for not having tried.

The idea was to include Moscow into the western civilization of the new millenium. That was based on the delusional religion of inclusion and multi-culturalism. Common sense and human observation should have told us that little would change in Russia.

It hasn't and it wont. The Washington Post has noticed:

_____________________

Who Needs Russia?

The United States should make a clear-eyed assessment of the fruits of strategic cooperation.
Washington Post Editorial

Saturday, August 23, 2008

ON THURSDAY, while overseeing his country's continuing occupation of neighboring Georgia, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev found time to meet with visiting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. Mr. Assad, who is under suspicion of ordering the murder of political opponents in Lebanon, lavishly praised Russia's invasion of Georgia and asked for more Russian weapons. Mr. Medvedev acceded to this request, according to his foreign minister.

This was a small and unsurprising event in the annals of Russian diplomatic history. But it's worth noting as the United States and its European allies consider how to reshape relations with Russia in the wake of its Aug. 7 invasion of Georgia. A common theme of commentary since the war began has been that the United States is constrained in its condemnation of -- or sanctions against -- Russia because it needs Russia too much in areas ranging from counterterrorism to checking the nuclear ambitions of North Korea and Iran. But you can't lose what you never had, and it's fair to question how much help Russia has been providing in any of those areas, even before Aug. 7.

Iran provides a useful example. Russia has participated, with Germany, France and Britain, in talks aimed at persuading Iran to abandon its nuclear program and even has gone along with some sanctions enacted by the U.N. Security Council. But Russia's principal contribution has been to slow the process and resist meaningful sanctions, stringing the Bush administration along just enough to convince it that truly effective measures -- sometime, somewhere down the road -- might be possible. Iran's nuclear program has proceeded without inhibition. Meanwhile, Russian experts help develop Iran's Bushehr nuclear power plant, and Russia sells Iran air-defense weapons it can use to protect its nuclear sites and anti-ship weapons it could use to menace Persian Gulf shipping traffic in the event of conflict. While the administration blames Iran and its proteges, including Hamas and Syria, for destabilizing the Middle East, Russia sells arms to all of them, and to Venezuela and Sudan.

None of this means that the United States should seek or welcome a new cold war with Russia. Russia could make life far more difficult for many of America's friends if it chose to do so, just as it could, if it chose, help combat terrorism and nuclear proliferation. But President Bush's imagined partnership with president-turned-prime-minister Vladimir Putin has been pretty much an empty husk for a long time. We hope and believe that the West would not under any circumstance barter away the independence or territorial integrity of a small, free and helpless nation in exchange for a promise of big-power cooperation. But when that promise is an illusion, the calculation should become even easier.


239 comments:

  1. Legacy:
    The administration of Elwood P. Dowd.

    ReplyDelete
  2. The problem is you don't have much of a choice. Which embargo *really* worked ? Cuba ? Burma ? Zimbabwe ? Even South Africa the drivers came from the inside, not the external embargo for decades.

    So if embargo's don't work. Clearly invasions don't work (no need to go over that one again) then what's left ? Talking, incentives, dis-incentives.

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  3. The problem is you don't have much of a choice. Which embargo *really* worked ? Cuba ? Burma ? Zimbabwe ? Even South Africa the drivers came from the inside, not the external embargo for decades.

    So if embargo's don't work. Clearly invasions don't work (no need to go over that one again) then what's left ? Talking, incentives, dis-incentives.

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  4. So if embargo's don't work. Clearly invasions don't work (no need to go over that one again) then what's left ? Talking, incentives, dis-incentives.

    Alternative fuels and reducing G8s to G7s, etc.

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  5. What has Russia done lately ...
    Why just fuel Europe.

    All of our new NATO allies, and the old allies, alike.

    trish said the Russians were getting nervous, which is reasonable, as the quality of their vodka is trending lower.

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  6. DR: What has Russia done lately ...
    Why just fuel Europe. All of our new NATO allies, and the old allies, alike.


    Classic strategy. First you get everyone hooked on your smack, then you start playing games with the supply of your smack.

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  7. We should be drillin and Fissioning and Mining and Farming and Windfarming, Solar Farming, and selling Oil for fun and profit.

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  8. Too Tall Ed Freeman

    While eager to collect his medal, Freeman has no regrets that it took 35 years. In fact, he prefers his years of anonymity because it meant he could quietly retire from the U.S. Army.

    He settled in Boise in 1967, flying for the Department of Interior and retiring a second time in 1991. Meanwhile, he's fished, traveled and gone to grandkids' ball games. "If I'd have been awarded this in a timely way, I would have stayed in the Army and gotten plush assignments," Freeman said, waving his hands at family portraits on a wall of his West Boise home. "But I wouldn't have been here. I would have been at the Pentagon, in Hawaii. All you have to do is hang that around your neck and be a nice boy and stand there. It totally changes your life."

    Even at 73, Freeman is impressive: 6 feet 4, in pressed jeans, a white dress shirt, and brown oxfords. He's blunt, eloquent, without artifice. At 13, he saw 20,000 men pass by his Mississippi home on maneuvers. "I was so impressed, I knew I had to be a soldier."

    After two years in the Navy, he joined the Army in 1948. During the Korean War, he won a battlefield promotion to first sergeant in the 36th Engineer Battalion and was one of 14 men in his 257-man Bravo Company to survive the initial fight for Pork Chop Hill.

    In 1965, Freeman was working in Boise at Gowen Field as a regular Army adviser to the Idaho National Guard. "This was my retirement assignment. They interrupted that."

    That fall, as President Johnson committed more than 500,000 troops to the escalating war, Freeman wound up on a crude, red-dirt airfield. Thirteen flight-minutes away, he'd helped drop 450 men of the 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry under the command of Lt. Col. Hal Moore in a clearing in the Ia Drang Valley. The soldiers were quickly surrounded by 2,000 North Vietnamese troops, and began taking some of the heaviest fire of the war.

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  9. They Are Burning The Houses
    Michael Totten reports from Georgia
    They Are Burning The Houses

    Michael Totten reports from Georgia

    On Monday, I visited one of the schools transformed into refugee housing in the center of Tbilisi and spoke to four women—Lia, Nana, Diana, and Maya—who had fled with their children from a cluster of small villages just outside the city of Gori.
    “We left the cattle,” Lia said.
    “We left the house.
    We left everything and came on foot because to stay there was impossible.”

    Diana’s account: “They are burning the houses. From most of the houses they are taking everything. They are stealing everything, even such things as toothbrushes and toilets. They are taking the toilets. Imagine.
    They are taking broken refrigerators.” And Nana: “We are so heartbroken. I don’t know what to say or even think. Our whole lives we were working to save something, and one day we lost everything.
    Now I have to start everything from the very beginning.”

    Imagine how desperate the Russians and Cossacks must be to steal the toothbrushes and toilets and what low lifes they are.
    Michael has more. Read It All.

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  10. Make oil irrelevant......

    Screw the Russians & Opec

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  11. This seems like a boundary definition problem in mathematics - the kind with an infinite number of solutions. To what degree was the West responsible for fostering development in post-Soviet Russia? The same extent that Francis claims the audience is responsible for objecting to a harsh statement made by one?

    That's the naive view and I'm sticking by it.

    Practically, I lean towards limited engagement sustained by maximal self-reliance as per the official line re energy and membership in the international community. That limited policy is hard to rebut. The problem with a more aggressive policy including some form of engagement is that - to date - there is no performance history to support any algorithm - certainly not the World Bank or the IMF. So active engagement becomes a feel-good crap shoot - because "we should" or the more radical "we must". Right now I don't see either. I'd just as soon retrench, with a lot of defense.

    But then again I'm an old fool.

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  12. That's the naive view and I'm sticking by it.

    Setting new levels of ambiguity.

    That didn't come out exactly right.

    Naive is assuming that an effective policy of engagement exists. I am not convinced - for all circumstances.

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  13. It is not just energy and oil from Russia. Globalization as an experiment has produced some very mixed results. Price should not be the be all and end all in economic and political decisions. Current experience with Chinese mercantilism, Russian energy domination, economic emigration are having long term affects that would otherwise be impossible.

    The closing of marginal factories in Latin America and Africa, as a result of cheap Chinese manufacturing and distribution has affected Europe and the US. The Chinese are using surplus savings to buy resource extraction industries while Russia is using excess oil surplus to further strangle Europe. Energy, trade and illegal immigration are just symptoms of the problem.

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  14. Personally, I am grateful that the Russians have revealed themselves to be the the ugly threat that they have always been. With energy threats, tanks in Georgia and the absence of the enabling louse, Gerhard Schroeder, Europe knows it has a huge problem.

    I am also grateful that the Olympics are finally over. Obama may have been impressed with China, but many people are beginning to understand what China is really about.

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  15. The Chinese in Africa is an astonishing story. While U.S. obsesses about the proper global "strategy", Chinese professionals are quietly and patiently pursing a focused program of "logistical" acquisitions in Africa.

    The Bobby Jindal story is on my mind - not just the bizarre exorcism - but his debut performance as a skillful problem solver. This is a slightly artificial distinction but I'll make it anyway. Health care in Louisiana is a "mechanical" problem - big and complicated but still mechanical. The physical venue or scale of the problem is also small enough to be managable. Which is not to detract from his accomplishments - should be more of us fixing more of the mechanical problems.

    The developmental problems unleashed by globalization don't qualify for the same solution set or the same structural tools. There's a Chinese Way, a Russian Way, a Western/Europe Way, and a South American Way, etc. Maybe these public exposures of the physical and metaphysical inner sanctums will send a message to the "we are one world" crowd. We are not. What might be an eventual inevitability is not a present reality.

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  16. Anyone that's anti Jihadi (and that includes Russia) is ok in my book. To my eyes, Russia as a natural ally. Their Cossacks are killing and driving Turks and other Jihadis from Russian territory. That needs to be encouraged further.

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  17. from Ralph Peters....

    ..."The essential point here is that Russia has a strategic vision, while the West does not. Putin acts, we react. Russia plans, we improvise. Our behavior is both ineffective and woefully inefficient. Worsening the situation, the United States is weary and, increasingly, inward-focused. Meanwhile, Europe enjoys complaining about an over-engaged America, but it may find that it likes a disengaged America a great deal less. There is nothing that passes for a convincing strategic vision in either Washington or Brussels. We are simultaneously outclassed by our self-appointed opponent and determined to put off any unpleasant reckoning: The two richest and most-powerful continents in history cannot rally together against a middling state with an aging, dying population that depends on a single source for its national income.

    The determination, especially in Western Europe, to minimize the importance of the rape of Georgia-Putin's actions amount to nothing less-is gratingly reminiscent of the cries of "Why Die for Danzig?" that echoed in Britain and France in the late 1930s. And, while politicians and pundits will do their best to minimize the perception of a military threat from the new Russia, it bears remembering that, in 1930, the German Reichswehr had 100,000 men and equipment hardly fit for a playground, yet, a mere ten years later, the Wehrmacht had millions of men under arms, the best weaponry in the world, and most of Europe under its boot-heels. While it may be unhelpful to be an alarmist, it's even less useful to be willfully naïve.

    Putin's team won the Georgia match and every point in play. In the absence of meaningful European unity and Euro-American solidarity, Moscow will win the next round, too."

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  18. The One Man Theory of History.

    It is not surprising that Pakistan became the incubator of the Taliban, nor that Waziristan now seems to be the home of Osama bin Laden and the remnant of al Qaeda. Nor is it surprising that al Qaeda forces, after basic training, were sent to Kashmir to get battle-hardened. Virtually all Indian Punjabis can recite these horrors chapter and verse. My guess is that if Mr. Jindal were elected vice president, he would not need to get any CIA briefings about Pakistan and Waziristan, or the nature of the terrorist threat.

    So jihadi terrorism can't be solved unless one hails from India?

    The problem is the mindset - one overachiever solving the world's problems in a single 5-yr plan. Compared to the 750,000 Chinese in Africa spread out over 20 years. I have nothing against Bobby Jindal but the world won't be saved by any one - it will be saved by the many. That's where the focus should be.


    Maybe I'm just not into hero worship. I don't think any one should be.

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  19. What I really think?



    I just don't know.



    These are some of the lamest comments I've contributed in a long time. Surprised Doug hasn't stopped by to nyah nyah.


    Tough problem - I just don't see the Dem Dream Team being up to the bar.

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  20. I have much in common with White Russians than I do with Indians Chinese South Americans Black Americans Black Africans Turkic Asians.

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  21. Metuselah: I have much in common with White Russians than I do with Indians Chinese South Americans Black Americans Black Africans Turkic Asians.

    You base your definition of "common" on skin hue, and I base it on culture. I have much more in common with brown Mexicans who were building Jesuit universities when your white Russians were building Potemkin villages.

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  22. building Jesuit universities
    ==
    And these universities contributed to our scientific knowledge how?

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  23. I base it on culture. I have much more in common with brown Mexicans
    ==
    I too base it culture. And I've yet to encounter anything Mexican that would even qualify as culture.

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  24. The Russians aren't getting nervous.

    They're already there.





    Ralph Peters has become a satire of himself - though he recently saw the light on South Asia. Maybe there's hope for Ralph yet.




    Carry on.

    ("Game over man!!! Game over!!!" Etc.)

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  25. The Russians aren't getting nervous. They're already there.

    Good. When my enemies are nervous, I'm winning. And nothing seems to give them the heebie jeebies more than missile defense.

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  26. When my enemies are nervous
    ==
    Why is Russia your enemy?

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  27. Metuselah: When my enemies are nervous
    ==
    Why is Russia your enemy?


    Because they are pointing thousands of intercontinental ballistic missiles at my country. Because they threaten to point those missiles at countries which allow us to station ABMs which are designed to protect those countries from the Muslim Bomb. Because they are aiding Iran in building a nuclear infrastructure, and they are building air defenses designed to prevent the US and Israel from taking that infrastructure out. This is just off the top of my head.

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  28. This is just off the top of my head.
    ==
    I only need two words describe this.
    Brain dead.

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  29. What has Russia done for us lately? When have they ever done anything for us? Always a big pain in the ass, when, as Mat says, we might be natural allies. Since they are being run again by totally illogical and murderous goons--when have they not been--don't expect any change.

    I suppose you could say they did us a favor with Alaska. But we paid for that.

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  30. Since they are being run again by totally illogical and murderous goons
    ==
    I don't mind "murderous goons", as long as they murder those that need murdering. As for "totally illogical", I find that assertion totally illogical.

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  31. Beneath contempt, Slade:
    You expect me to waste my
    Precious Bodily Pixels?
    ---
    No Victory Dances
    23 August 2008
    I hope to land in Afghanistan tomorrow, but as for tonight, I'm stuck in a hotel reading everything I can devour on Iraq and Afghanistan. An interesting interview with General Petraeus surfaced. General Petraeus has always been objective in his communications with me.
    I see in this Newsweek exclusive, that General Petraeus is again dampening expectations. I've seen him do it over and over. Now isn't that amazing? An American General who actually makes it a point to dampen press enthusiasm. But while delivering the raw truth, General Petraeus gains enormous credibility with journalists, who then reach untold millions of people.
    I remember stepping off his helicopter one night before he roared away into the Iraqi night. Just before I took off the headset and unbuckled my seat belt, General Petraeus said something like, "No Victory Dances."

    I stepped out and his darkened helicopter disappeared into the night, nearly knocking me over with the rotor wash. General Petraeus has enormous press credibility because he delivers the good, the bad and the ugly.

    Now for General Petraeus:

    Gen. David Petraeus is due to relinquish his role as the commanding general in Iraq in mid-September, moving up to head CENTCOM, the U.S. military's Central Command, in overall charge of the conflicts in both Iraq and Afghanistan. He sat down for an hour and a half this week with NEWSWEEK's Rod Nordland, at the general's office in the American Embassy, in Saddam's old Republican Palace.
    Click here to read the entire article by Rod Norland in Newsweek.

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  32. I find the following to be illogical.--

    Because they are pointing thousands of intercontinental ballistic missiles at my country. Because they threaten to point those missiles at countries which allow us to station ABMs which are designed to protect those countries from the Muslim Bomb. Because they are aiding Iran in building a nuclear infrastructure, and they are building air defenses designed to prevent the US and Israel from taking that infrastructure out.

    Plus, turning the country over to an autocracy, rather than trying to build up a solid middle class in good partriotic fashion I call illogical too. And fashioning an economic policy that relies on oil and gas exports as the only leg to stand on.

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  33. I don't mind "murderous goons", as long as they murder those that need murdering

    You might have a point there, Mat, but Pooty has a lot of innocent blood on his hands already, innocent reporters, for instance.
    Seeing that there is a judgement at death, it is illogical to live one's life in such a way as to have serious stuff come back and hit you in the face when you die.

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  34. And, if one asserts the limitations of reason, one should recall Pascal's Wager which urges a man to knock off the murderous behavior.

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  35. I always though Pascal's first name was a kicker - best not to be Blaise about God.

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  36. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  37. But then again, one man's waste of time is another man's wager.

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  38. Latest round of polls shows McCain ahead in Nevada and holding more or less even in Colorado and New Mexico.

    Delaware however seems out of reach for McCain. :)

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  39. Plus, turning the country over to an autocracy, rather than trying to build up a solid middle class in good partriotic fashion I call illogical too. And fashioning an economic policy that relies on oil and gas exports as the only leg to stand on.

    ==

    I disagree. That's reality turned on its head. If anything, Putin has stabilized the middle class in Russia, where it was almost completely decimated in the 80s and 90s by US economic and political advisers. Putin and his oil oligarchs might not be champions of democracy, but neither are the oligarchs of America's oil and military industries. Jihadistan is their best friend and beneficiary, while it is the American middle class that has been their victim and most dispossessed of its wealth.

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  40. Mat, but Pooty has a lot of innocent blood on his hands already, innocent reporters, for instance.
    ==
    Right. Innocent reporters. Doing propaganda work for innocent Jihadis.

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  41. ..Doing ^innocent propaganda work for innocent Jihadis..

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  42. I don't know, Mat. It's hard to know what's going on in Russia. For instance, last I read, they were still in the process of passing a basic land law. Who owns the farm land in Russia now, I've wondered. It's hard to get a good read on it.

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  43. And who owns the farm land in the USA now? Archer Daniels Midland Company, that's who.

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  44. Mat, how did your sorry Russian-Apologist ass ever find the Elephant Bar?

    I wouldn't trade "ONE" of my Black American Brothers for every sorry-assed Russian that ever lived. I've Never, Ever met a Russian I liked.

    The only good thing I can think of about their lily-white skin is it ought to glow really damned pretty if I ever get a "free" shot to light the Savage Bastards up.

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  45. Mat, please, as long as you're hanging around here do something useful. Show a link where ADM owns Any farmland. And, how much.

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  46. Rufus,

    I'm no sorry ass Russian-Apologist. But lies are lies. And if you're going to tell me lies, and I'm going to call you on it.

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  47. Keep it up Mat and Francis is gonna pop back in coming after me because I didn't call BS on your SWAG-gery.

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  48. “It’s such a bad way to die"

    Polonium 210 Putin

    Another Journalist Bites The Dust

    Archer Daniels Midland doesn't own any farmland around this neck of the woods. I agree though land ownership is becoming too concentrated.

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  49. Mat, when you value a Russian over a fellow (to me) American you can go fuck yourself.

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  50. Mat, when you value a Russian over a fellow (to me) American you can go fuck yourself.
    ==
    As far as I'm concerned your Farrakhan ghetto brothers can go fsck themselves.

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  51. "It's such a bad way to die"
    ==

    Not bad enough, if you ask me.

    "Two days before his death Alexander Litvinenko informed his father that he had converted to Islam."

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  52. A lot of their daddies fought alongside me. One, or two, might have saved my sorry life. "They Got Credit" with me.

    Some of their Grand-Daddies fought at places like Bastogne, bougainville, and Chosen. And, yes, in the Philippines.

    Some of their Brothers are getting killed in Iraq, and, Afghanistan,today (by weapons supplied by scum-of-the-earth, Pale-White Russian.)

    And, like as not, some of their children will probably fight alongside my grandchildren in some far-off shithole against the stinking Russians (at least, if Putin has his way.)

    Yeah, they've got a lot of "Credit" with me, Bubba.

    YOU, Not so much.

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  53. Well, at least we can agree it's a unique way to die. How many people in the history of our groaning earth have died of Polonium 210 poisoning? Less than 10 I'd be willing to wager, and maybe just one.

    gotta run, later

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  54. And, "Brown-skinned" people? How many boatloads do you think they'd have to give up to get one Ms T? Got news for you, you racist pig; there ain't that many ships in the Russian Navy.

    If she calls for a "vote" on ya, Bubba, I think you're gone.

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  55. Yeah, they've got a lot of "Credit" with me, Bubba.

    YOU, Not so much.
    ==
    When your dumb ass kids are banging their heads against the floor 5 times a day in prostration to allah, we'll know who's got more credit with whom.

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  56. Bobal: Delaware however seems out of reach for McCain.

    McCain's VP (to be announced on his 72nd birthday at a rally in Ohio on August 29th, none of this text message shit) is gonna be Joe Lieberman. It's going to be called a bipartisan "Unity Ticket". You heard it here first.

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  57. Got news for you, you racist pig
    ==
    Why racist? Cause I don't buy into the racism shoved down my throat by your taqqiyya brothers and sisters.

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  58. Rufus: And, "Brown-skinned" people? How many boatloads do you think they'd have to give up to get one Ms T? Got news for you, you racist pig; there ain't that many ships in the Russian Navy.

    I don't know why Metuselah is so upset over brown skinned folks. I mean, here's some brown skin from Metuselah's tribe I could get next to.

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  59. I don't know why Metuselah is so upset over brown skinned folks.
    ==
    You're disgusting.

    How many times did I mention culture?
    How many times did I mention skin color?

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  60. Somebody needs to take a vacation.

    I suspect that we're about as easy going here as any joint on the web but when you start pissin' off all your friends day after day and on a variety of issues, you're heading for trouble. No two people are going to agree on everything, the secret is learning how to disagree civilly without ostracizing every last friend in the world.

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  61. I don't know, T; maybe we WILL let the Russians have you.

    I don't think we, necessarily, need any "competition" when it comes to That Kind of Brown Skins.

    :)

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  62. I have much in common with White Russians than I do with Indians Chinese South Americans Black Americans Black Africans Turkic Asians.

    Vacation, Hell; I move we vote the sniveling little racist off the island.

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  63. Somebody needs to take a vacation.
    ==
    Maybe you can explain to Rufus why Africa should be the exclusive domain of Blacks; Why China should be the exclusive domain of Yellow; Why India the exclusive domain of the Brown.

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  64. Black Americans
    ==
    Would you feel better if I called it “urban” American culture.

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  65. Matt:

    And I've yet to encounter anything Mexican that would even qualify as culture.

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  66. Metuselah: You're disgusting. How many times did I mention culture? How many times did I mention skin color?

    Don't be disingenuous. This is what you wrote: "I have much in common with White Russians than I do with Indians Chinese South Americans Black Americans Black Africans Turkic Asians." (SIC)

    and also SICK.

    If you said simply that you had more in common with Russians than with people of African or Chinese or Turkish origin, that would have been fine. This reminds me of the full page newspaper ads in Spain with athletes making oriental eyes. In countries like Spain or Canada where racism has not been addressed and worked through by the society, people can drift right into racist thinking, just like young kids can often do. I'm not judging you Metuselah, but this color thing is really an unfruitful way to focus hatred, rather than hating a people for their national character, because it's ultimately contentless.

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  67. And I've yet to encounter anything Mexican that would even qualify as culture.
    ==
    So? What's your point? You and I obviously have differing views as to what qualifies for culture. Sombreros and Tortillas might make it in your book, but not in mine.

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  68. The Russians aren't getting nervous. They're already there.

    Good. When my enemies are nervous, I'm winning.

    - T

    Thank you for clearing that up, Sun Tzu.

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  69. - T

    Thank you for clearing that up, Sun Tzu.


    You missed the dog thread, Trish. I'm not Sun Tzu, I'm Shih Tzu.

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  70. Don't be disingenuous.
    ==
    I'm at all disingenuous. I don't give a shit about skin color. But neither am I going to keep up the lies of Political Correctness by insisting that some mono color cultures cannot and should not be identified as such.

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  71. Mat, you're a fool. You're an embarressment to all who post here.

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  72. Mat, you're a fool.
    ==
    Maybe. Maybe blowing smoke up your ass while you collectively descend into hell is all you deserve.

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  73. Metuselah: I don't give a shit about skin color. But neither am I going to keep up the lies of Political Correctness by insisting that some mono color cultures cannot and should not be identified as such.

    Let me see if I can parse that by stripping out the double negatives:

    1. You don't give a shit about skin color.

    2. You insist that some mono color cultures can be and should be identified as such.

    CHECK!

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  74. You insist that some mono color cultures can be and should be identified as such.
    ==

    See my: Sun Aug 24, 06:22:00 PM EDT

    Why shouldn't they be identified as such? Why shouldn't they be called on that? Why is it that only whites can be called racists?

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  75. Rufus, not to nose my way into this interesting argument but have you posted this outrage from other
    posters racial slants that have been posted here before? I dont recall, but maybe i'm wrong.

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  76. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  77. Why shouldn't they be identified as such?

    Because skin color becomes a criteria for identification, rather than character content. This is the essence of racism.

    Why shouldn't they be called on that?

    I cannot answer that. There is no "they" to me because I do not recognize skin color as a grouping characteristic.

    Why is it that only whites can be called racists?

    I do not recognize the group you call "whites" so I cannot answer whether they can be called racists. I only call people racist when they use skin color as an identifying mark.

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  78. I recall rufus taking just this stand, in the past.

    With habu, first and foremost

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  79. Slim, I don't read EB, "Every" day. (I've been doing a few other things, recently:) but, I think I've been "pretty" consistent on calling out racist remarks (if they're made about Americans.)

    To me, the key is "Americans! I just can't be associated with something that I would be ashamed to have my friends, white, or otherwise, read.

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  80. I do not recognize the group you call "whites" so I cannot answer whether they can be called racists.
    ==
    LOL. Do you recognize non whites?

    Did Mugabe disenfranchise any Black farmers?

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  81. Rufus, right on. Being a conservative shouldn't mean you tolerate hatred of groups for being different colors or religions or what-have-you. It's never about BEING something good or bad (unless we're talking about being Americans), it's about DOING something good or bad.

    ReplyDelete
  82. I have to admit, though, that I'm a bit hypocritical about it if you hold my feet to the fire about some of our Middle Eastern friends. I do have a problem with Jihadi/Raghead, for ex.

    Maybe, I should work on it, myself.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Are the Russians taking casualties, in Georgia?

    Are their dug-in positions in political or tactical locations?

    Has Ms Rice spoken of a "Special Relationship" with Georgia, in their private discussions?

    Has the balance of 10th SFG forward deployeed to Georgia and Urkraine?

    ReplyDelete
  84. LOL. Do you recognize non whites?

    Metuselah, I am really and truly post-racial in my attitude toward everyone. Maybe because I'm a brown person. I see the different skin tones, but they are all minor variations of brown to me. Even "caucasian" people are just light brown. It's all good. And more people are coming around to this point of view.

    Did Mugabe disenfranchise any Black farmers?

    My own morality does not rely on what Mugabe did.

    ReplyDelete
  85. C4 has only posted here, four, maybe five times.
    In none of those was he very provocative, from a racial or semetic perspective.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Slim, I NEVER made it through more than the first three sentences of one of c4's posts.

    I do recall, now that you mention it, that he's pretty anti-semitic. It seems like he was always catching hell from somebody else over that; so there was no compulsion to "jump in."

    Also, I haven't seen many of his posts over here for awhile. I guess, basically, I just never took him very seriously.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Nor did Mugumbe do anything in the Americas, to Americans, mat.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Rufus: I do recall, now that you mention it, that he's pretty anti-semitic. It seems like he was always catching hell from somebody else over that; so there was no compulsion to "jump in."

    Cedarford is very clever, he posts anti-Zionist rhetoric, then people pile on him for being anti-Semitic, then he sits back and laughs at all the morons who equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Well, there are plenty of Jews in America who aren't on board that little homesteading project in the Levant.

    ReplyDelete
  89. My own morality does not rely on what Mugabe did.
    ==
    That's not the question. The question has to do with Mugabe's motivation, and whether that motivation was influenced by racism. I suspect it clearly was. Yet, I've heard very little from the usual suspects who jump at every opportunity to accuse a white person of racism call Mugabe on his actions.

    ReplyDelete
  90. There's not a color group on earth that hasn't shown racism at one time or another. Alas.

    As for religion, the Hindus seem the most easy going, for the most part, it being a part of their outlook that there are many paths up the mountain.

    And yet, alas, they have that caste stuff still knawing at them, which seems to have been brought down from the north by the Aryans.

    Even "caucasian" people are just light brown.
    :)
    Only when we've been in the sun for a summer.

    ReplyDelete
  91. How could "T" be racist? She's done got it all figured out.

    Everybody's BROWN!

    Beyoootiful. :)

    ReplyDelete
  92. I call Mugabe on his actions. Not only tribal, but really really stupid, which is unforgiveable. Turned a working agricultural system into starvation.

    A sensible man would have taken the position that yes the whites lorded it over us, and we'll change that, but treat them right so they will stay and be productive for our economy.

    Mugabe is not only racist but tribal. I don't know what tribe he is but I've read he priviledges his own to the detriment, and death, of the others.

    Though it wouldn't solve the problem, he ought to be assassinated just on general principles.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Since 'the most beautiful woman in the world'--that I've seen--was a Sioux Indian, I admit, I'm a little partial to that tone of skin and color of hair.

    I just can't help myself.

    ReplyDelete
  94. I agree, Bob; Racism runs rampant around the world, and in our own culture.

    But, that doesn't mean that WE want to associate with racists. Time's too short for us; right, Bub? Can't be "brought down" by that crap.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Rufus, we older ones know, the real things in life are general to the human race. We all bleed, we all cry, we all smile, and, we all gotta die sometime.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Breaking Business News:

    Wal-Marts across Tennessee sold out of ammunition as of yesterday.

    A reliable source said that one of the purchasers said, "Russia may have invaded Georgia, they sure as hell ain't takin' Tennessee."

    ReplyDelete
  97. I think we decided a long time ago, a pragmatic approach to disagreement here at the bar, which is acceptable, was to express opinions in such a manner as if the person you are talking to, or shouting at, is sitting next to you at the bar. Assume they have three inches on you and fifty pounds.

    Any subject is up for debate, but civility and well argued stands will take your point of view farther than an AOL mud fight.

    Over three years, I doubt we removed five comments. The one I removed was because someone called another poster a "----" after I warned them that was over the line.

    For some reason C-4 seems to save his most provocative comments for the BC.

    Rufus is not afraid to engage with anyone, and has come to the defense and offense of almost all here. He is a constant source of interesting and thoughtful posts. I actually think he has mellowed somewhat.

    I am somewhat mellow myself as this afternoon I enjoyed the spectacle of a bevy of Latin beauties that well represented the broad palette of human skin tones. Somehow, when you spend time in Latin America, you just quit noticing.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Cedarford is very clever, he posts anti-Zionist rhetoric, then people pile on him for being anti-Semitic,
    ==

    Tes, not very clever.

    Anti-Zionist rhetoric is anti-Semitic, and many already showed this to you and Cedarfard on many an occasion. Also, Cedarfard does not confine himself only to anti Israeli diatribes. If there's a Jew or two to be found in a group of thousands/millions for a particular cause, Cedarfard will argue that the Jew is representative of the whole group and that the Jew is representative of all Jews. And whatever evil he imagines that specific group has done it is implied that THE JEWS™ should be scapegoated for it.

    ReplyDelete
  99. "Cedarford is very clever, he posts anti-Zionist rhetoric, then people pile on him for being anti-Semitic, then he sits back and laughs at all the morons who equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Well, there are plenty of Jews in America who aren't on board that little homesteading project in the Levant."

    he talks of his hatred of liberal jews, whom apt to be, in my opinion, anti-zionist. so i dont agree.

    ReplyDelete
  100. I agree with Rufus I wouldn't want some of my black friends (or Jewish ones) to think I was associated with racist, bigoted remarks.

    I am not saying that I am multi-culti perfect but I try to judge people as individuals.

    As far as Mexican culture goes, I love the old Mexican music and the food.

    ReplyDelete
  101. I don't know what it is with Cedarford. I find myself ageeing with him once in a while, but, I'll be damned, then off he goes on a rant, every time.

    He's like that Richard Butler, who was the Aryan Nations guy(from California) at Hayden, Idano for a while, till he got busted in a civil suit.

    He was a guy who made some sense on some stuff, but, all of sudden, off he'd go, Jews, Blacks, Bankers, blahblahblah.

    It's like C4 and Butler and their ilk got some kind of a blind spot they were born with.

    ReplyDelete
  102. 2164th said:
    I am somewhat mellow myself as this afternoon I enjoyed the spectacle of a bevy of Latin beauties that well represented the broad palette of human skin tones. Somehow, when you spend time in Latin America, you just quit noticing.


    For some reason, right now, my skin color is green.

    ReplyDelete
  103. Same thing is true about somebody like Farrakhan too, just flip the skin color, and you're there.

    ReplyDelete
  104. I'm turning a little green with envy myself.

    ReplyDelete
  105. I think that dumbass who got the well deserved beating was wise when he asked:

    "Can't we all just get along?"

    ReplyDelete
  106. Hawaii Olympians win gold, prestige
    In its wildest dreams, Hawai'i could not have imagined what transpired at these Olympics. Our tiny state sent 18 athletes to Beijing and two-thirds will come home with medals.
    China allowed Lang Ping to leave the country on the condition that she not coach.
    "Of course we had her coaching," Iversen recalled.
    "She was learning English and she was so funny in the gym. She never said much because she wasn't comfortable with the language yet, but she would say little things and be so direct and get away with things we couldn't say."

    Lang Ping learned to coach the hard way, working camps and refereeing to make ends meet. She also immediately understood the college game's emphasis on student-athletes as a whole.

    "She was really OK with that. That part of the American system she liked," Iversen said. "It wasn't just volleyball, but letting players have a life and develop as people and not just skills in a gym."

    She went on to coach China to a silver medal in 1996, then coached professionally overseas before getting hired by USA Volleyball. The rest is more silver-medal history, as Lang Ping blended strict training with a compassionate personality. Iversen calls it "a magical gift."
    ---
    WAIPI'O IS WORLD CHAMPION

    Underdog but undaunted Waipi'o scored in every inning to whip Mexico, 12-3, today to win the Little League World Series championship in South Williamsport, Pa. More »

    Fosbury Flop

    Number F...... One!

    ReplyDelete
  107. From Powerline:

    "A STRANGE SINGLING OUT EXPLAINED
    Barack Obama's recent comment about Justice Thomas -- that he would not have nominated Thomas for the Supreme Court due to Thomas' "inexperience" -- coupled with Obama's selection of Joe Biden as his running mate, provide a painful reminder of the judicial confirmation wars of the past 20 plus years. I wrote about Biden's central (and disgraceful) role in these wars here. I wondered why Thomas is singled out for having been inexperienced at the time of his nomination here.

    The latter post brought this response from a reader:

    The answer is this: liberals like Mr. Obama simply cannot fathom how a black person could hold seriously thought-out views about jurisprudence like those of Clarence Thomas. And there is something too crass about attacking Justice Thomas' jurisprudence on the merits, as well as too time-consuming.
    Liberals deem it too crass because they like to pretend that their objections are unrelated to politics, perhaps out of a concern that conservatives will apply the same approach to liberal judicial nominees when the tables are turned. So they find other reasons: Bork is too smart and doesn't understand the "common man;" and Thomas is too dumb. But the Thomas-as-too-dumb view is too crass also, so the easy thing to do is say he was "unqualified" or too inexperienced.

    Substantive critiques of Justice Thomas' jurisprudence are too time-consuming because people like Mr. Obama don't want to read, much less engage, his opinions. Note that criticisms of Justice Thomas never cite any examples of actual opinions he's written. Obama certainly failed to do so at the Saddleback forum.

    Ultimately, the theme continues for liberals: "self-hating" minorities who deviate from liberal orthodoxy are attacked because liberals view them as turn-coats. For more recent examples, see the treatment Miguel Estrada and Janice Rogers Brown received when the president nominated them to the D.C. Circuit, while the white guy, John Rodgers, sailed through to confirmation. And, recall Justice Thomas' words:

    "This is not an opportunity to talk about difficult matters privately or in a closed environment. This is a circus. It's a national disgrace. And from my standpoint, as a black American, it is a high-tech lynching for uppity blacks who in any way deign to think for themselves, to do for themselves, to have different ideas, and it is a message that unless you kowtow to an old order, this is what will happen to you. You will be lynched, destroyed, caricatured by a committee of the U.S. Senate rather than hung from a tree."

    The "old order" is liberalism. Mr. Obama's cheap shot against Justice Thomas, which would be applauded in Cambridge and Hyde Park, is the most recent example of the stereotypical left-wing effort to keep minorities on the plantation."

    ReplyDelete
  108. Bob is just covering for his alien friends. He's really translucent white. :)

    ReplyDelete
  109. is fascism just as unAmerican as communism? i think so but i have never heard pat buchanan being referred to as unAmerican. i have had issues with some peoples idea of what it is to be a true American. just my opinion though.

    ReplyDelete
  110. Congrats to you Hawaiians, Doug.

    Some Chinese, however, came away from the Totalitarian Games not feeling quite so pleased.

    ReplyDelete
  111. That's why I like that story of the Chinawoman Coach Moving to Freedom and Spitting on the Chi-coms.

    ReplyDelete
  112. I can see Mat's not well read on things extraterrestial.

    Greys, Mat, Greys.


    Aliens Classified As To Types

    ReplyDelete
  113. you got your Chinamen,
    and you got your Chinawomen.

    Soon we'll have our Chinatranzis.

    ReplyDelete
  114. "Russia may have invaded Georgia, they sure as hell ain't takin' Tennessee."

    Love it :)

    Slim, if you've never noticed me posting that Pat Buchanan is a Fascist, you just haven't been paying attention. I've posted such several times.

    ReplyDelete
  115. I hold Israel, the Jewish Religion, and the Jooos of the Wooorld responsible for Mika!

    ReplyDelete
  116. Bob,

    I knew dat. Me was talking bout your green halo radioactive nukular touting industry friends. :P

    ReplyDelete
  117. And besides, Mika's a
    F...... a "----"

    ReplyDelete
  118. (first letter will suffice!)

    ReplyDelete
  119. Mat, the aliens that really give me the willys are those damned Reptilians.

    ReplyDelete
  120. I hold Israel, the Jewish Religion, and the Jooos of the Wooorld responsible for Mika!
    ==

    It's Mikhael Mikhaelovski to you!

    ReplyDelete
  121. Thankfully we made it though the dangerous 90's.

    THE REPTILIANS: A genetics akin to reptiles, these are highly advanced entities but viewed as being of a negative, hostile or dangerous disposition since they regard humans as a totally inferior race. They would perceive us much the way we would perceive a herd of cattle. They are carnivorous in regard to humans. There is supposedly a "driven" planetoid or asteroid inhabited by 30 million of these lizard-folk that is to enter our solar system in the mid 90's if the present schedule is kept.

    They consider earth to be their own ancient outpost and would expect to have complete control of the entire planet upon their return. Their own planet is becoming unable to adequately support life and they need somewhere else to live. These are the aliens who are served by the type A greys.

    ReplyDelete
  122. If an itsy bitsy Dead Gecko Smells like Holy Shit, think what them big monsters they got in Mexico must smell like.

    They had a die-off of them alien things somewhere recently.
    That would not be good.

    ReplyDelete
  123. The
    Reptilians come from somewhere near HERE

    ReplyDelete
  124. Bob,

    Only temporarily twisted into a monstrous reptilicus in the darkness of hell. What we need is more light. :)

    ReplyDelete
  125. Metuselah, I am really and truly post-racial in my attitude toward everyone. Maybe because I'm a white person.
    I see the different skin tones, but they are all minor variations of whit to me. Even "caucasian" people are just light whit. It's all good. And more people are coming around to this point of view.
    ...they'll all be as enlightened as us white people someday.
    Maybe.

    ReplyDelete
  126. rufus, do you really think mat is a racist? what makes him unamerican?(not hating the russians?). im not defending the guy, dont even know him, but there is a real state dept feel to this place today.

    ReplyDelete
  127. slimsomething: i think so but i have never heard pat buchanan being referred to as unAmerican.


    Then you aint been listening...

    but to be fair, Pat's dad was killed in the holocaust too...

    seems he fell out of a guard tower...

    ReplyDelete
  128. right now, whit is still green (and not in an environmental way.)

    ReplyDelete
  129. Oh boy! the Democratic Convention is starting tomorrow....I can't wait to see the hootenanny, kumbajah, stadium event. Simply cannot wait!

    ReplyDelete
  130. what makes him unamerican?
    ==
    He does not hold an American Passport or Citizenship. He does hold an Israeli Passport and Citizenship, as well as a Canadian Passport and Citizenship. His Russian/American girlfriend holds a Russian Passport and American Citizenship. :)

    ReplyDelete
  131. Slim, he professed an affinity for "White" Russians over "Black" Americans. I'm here, today, because Black Americans had my "six" when the S hit the F.

    As far as I'm concerned he can go write that shit on a Russian Blog. I don't wanna hear it.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Whit: Oh boy! the Democratic Convention is starting tomorrow....I can't wait to see the hootenanny, kumbajah, stadium event. Simply cannot wait!

    Tell me how it goes, with little brief one-liners. I'd rather watch watch old ladies knitting than a donk fest where everyone goes "God Damn America!".

    ReplyDelete
  133. mat beleieves in genetic predetermination, an unAmerican trait if ever ther was one.

    Because being an American is a belief in an idea, everyone is welcome to join the revolution against belief in genetic predetermination...

    ReplyDelete
  134. he must be the Big Lebowski. the Dude.

    ReplyDelete
  135. I professes an affinity for "White" Russian culture over "Black" American culture. So?

    ReplyDelete
  136. In Romans Ch 3 verses 12 - 18 we are told;

    "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

    And in John Ch 13 verses 35 & 35;

    "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

    Let use not fear our Russian brothers and sister's but love them.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Police And Protesters Are Arming Up

    The Legionaires seem to be prepared on both sides, Whit.

    I didn't watch any of the Olympics, but I'll break down and watch some of our democratic friends do their stuff.

    T., you can think of it as comic relief. Way to break up the dog days of summer. It should prove more exciting than a staid old GOP convention.

    ReplyDelete
  138. "I'd rather watch watch old ladies knitting than a donk fest where everyone goes "God Damn America!"."


    That's whats so nuts about lots of dumb dhimmis that don't see the connection between Barry, Michelle my belle, and Wright:
    They're all saying the same things, just using different word.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Is "Whit" White?

    C'mon Doug; Pay Attention! Whit is "light T."

    I, on the other hand, am very light T.

    "T" is T; and, Barack Obama is semi-dark T. McCain is Albino T, and Paris is Sweet T.

    Got It?

    ReplyDelete
  140. well to stick my 2 worthless sense in...

    There are some socalled americans that embrace Bowtie Louie that I'd take a klansmen over...

    From the Jessie "blackmailing, anti-semite, bastard producing, Hymietown" Jackson, Al Sharpton, Rev Wright, Farakkan & Company this PORTION of the African American is pure shit...

    ReplyDelete
  141. "an unAmerican trait if ever ther was one."
    ---
    But La Raza not only gets a free pass, but free money, goodies, and privileges, all from us generous taxpayers.

    ReplyDelete
  142. mətušélaḥ said...
    I professes an affinity for "White" Russian culture over "Black" American culture. So?

    So nothing, except it shows you have a preference...

    I prefer WASP Christian culture to that of Arab Americans....

    I prefer Hawaiians culture to that of Ghetto blasting hip hopping gangsters...

    ReplyDelete
  143. There you go WIO,
    ANOTHER protected class of worthless, racist mofos.

    ReplyDelete
  144. mat beleieves in genetic predetermination
    ==
    I wouldn't go as far as predetermination, there's always the exception. But I do think there's a strong correlation between genetics and culture. If you open your eyes, you can see it in America.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Right on Doug. That's why Wright is so valuable. No question where he stands.

    ReplyDelete
  146. “I am he, as you are he, as you are me, and we are all together.”

    ReplyDelete
  147. "Yellow matter custard, green slop pie,
    All mixed together with a dead dog's eye,
    Slap it on a butty, ten foot thick,
    Then wash it all down with a cup of cold sick".

    ReplyDelete
  148. Better Strawberry than Dead!

    ReplyDelete
  149. “Joan was quizzical, studied metaphysical* science in the home.
    Late nights all alone with the test-tubes.
    Whoa, oh oh oh.”

    ReplyDelete
  150. Never caught that nasty test tube joke before.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Safer than a Ceegar, as long as ya don't crush it.

    ReplyDelete
  152. I prefer the Vatican and Dante to Italian gangsters.
    I prefer Netanyehu and Jerusalen to Bugsy Siegel and Las Vegas.
    I prefer the Swedes of today to the Vikings of yesteryear.
    I prefer Tolstoy to Putin.
    I prefer winter wheat to that damned spring wheat Larker.

    ReplyDelete
  153. It’s only me, it’s not my mind

    ReplyDelete
  154. You're just prejudiced against lodging, al-Bob.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Let use not fear our Russian brothers and sister's but love them.

    4qratass, I might, with some effort, work up a little love for the 30% or so of the Russian people who don't think Putin is their version of The One.
    The other 70% however seem to really like the guy, and aren't going to miss my love in any case.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Doug said: coo, coo, Katchoo.

    Say, what happened to that Katchoo girl anyway?

    Metuselah: But I do think there's a strong correlation between genetics and culture. If you open your eyes, you can see it in America.

    You know the Nazis went around looking in vain for the origin of the Aryan Race. There hain't no such thing as an Aryan Race. Or any race. There's a gene for how much melanin ends up in your skin. Doesn't have jack to do with culture, which is pure nurture, not nature.

    ReplyDelete
  157. It was Red Roosian that had the lodging problem Doug, not that damned Larker, which hardly got high enough to cut.

    Worst mistake I made in farming = Larker Spring Wheat.

    ReplyDelete
  158. I prefer Medvedev.
    Medvedev is Jewish for Russian Bear. :)

    ReplyDelete
  159. i wonder how whitey will like being second class, or no class... tell us DR?

    ReplyDelete
  160. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  161. or really somebody get the memo he sent out with that answer

    ReplyDelete
  162. we are poor little leambs who have lost our way ....

    ReplyDelete
  163. I think there was an Aryan race. Up there in the grasslands somewheres. But, they mastered the horse, and, instead of herding their cattle on foot, began to go thieving, which pays better, and, since they bred and married with anything human and female they captured, it didn't last long, in its original state. I take that from J. Campbell. They pushed west into what is now Germany, south west, down into Greece, north into Russia and Scandinavia, and south or south east into Iran(Ayran) and into India.

    ReplyDelete
  164. Interesting map. Doesn't look good in Dade County for instance.

    ReplyDelete
  165. L.A.,Las Vegas, and Chicago look like the shits, too.

    ReplyDelete
  166. Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, North and South Dakota, New Mexico and Utah --states with an agricultural or rural character seem to be exempt.

    ReplyDelete
  167. Hey, Bob,
    What's that area running due north of TAHOE?
    Thot that was uninhabited, mainly.

    ReplyDelete
  168. Reno and environs I quess.

    Scyths, don't know Mat.

    Anxious Party delegates were ingesting tranquilizers before the opening ceremonies FEAR tv reported today.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Looking at the map, California is screwed. Basic shit brown color anywhere there are people.

    ReplyDelete