The Right And Wrong Questions About The Iraq War
James Fallows - The Atlantic
First some operating principles, then a little history lesson. The principles:
First some operating principles, then a little history lesson. The principles:
1) No one ever again—not a news person nor a civilian, not an American nor one from anyplace else—should waste another second asking, “Knowing what we know now, would you have invaded Iraq?” Reasons:
a) It’s too easy. Similarly: “Knowing what we know now, would you have bought a ticket on Malaysia Air flight 370?” The only people who might say Yes on the Iraq question would be those with family ties (poor Jeb Bush); those who are inept or out of practice in handling potentially tricky questions (surprisingly, again poor Bush); or those who are such Cheney-Bolton-Wolfowitz-style bitter enders that they survey the landscape of “what we know now”—the cost and death and damage, the generation’s worth of chaos unleashed in the Middle East, and of course the absence of WMDs—and still say, Heck of a job.
b) It doesn’t tell you anything. Leaders don’t make decisions on the basis of “what we know now” retrospectively. They have to weigh evidence based on “what we knew then,” in real time.Which brings us to:
2) The questions reporters and citizens should ask instead. There are two of them.
a) Based on “what we knew then,” how did you assess the evidence, possible benefits, and possible risks of invading Iraq? What were your views as of early 2003? This is a straightforward-rather-than-tricky, for-the-record query. It’s a prelude to the much more important question:
b) Regardless of whether you feel you were right or wrong, prescient or misled, how exactly will the experience of Iraq—yours in weighing evidence, the country’s in going to war—shape your decisions about the future, unforeseeable choices about committing American force?
Question 2(b) is the essential question, on this topic, for candidates aspiring to become president. In assessing answers to this question:
—Minus points to any candidate who tries to bluff through with the tired “I don’t do hypotheticals” cliché. That might apply if you’re a military commander declining to say exactly when and where you’ll attack. But if you want to be president you need to explain the mindset with which you’ll approach still-undefined (that is, hypothetical) challenges.
—Plus points to any candidate who wrestles honestly with the question of what he (or she) has learned from being wrong (or right) about Iraq.
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Now, the little history lesson. I am reinforcing a point already made in different ways by Peter Beinart for The Atlantic, Steve Benen for the Maddow Show blog, Greg Sargent in the WaPo, and Paul Krugman in the NY Times. But it is so very important, and in so much danger of being swamped by the current “Knowing what we know...” bomfog, that I feel I have to weigh in.
• The “knowing what we know” question presumes that the Bush Administration and the U.S. public were in the role of impartial jurors, or good-faith strategic decision-makers, who while carefully weighing the evidence were (unfortunately) pushed toward a decision to invade, because the best-available information at the time indicated that there was an imminent WMD threat.
• That view is entirely false.
• The war was going to happen. The WMD claims were the result of the need to find a case for the war, rather than the other way around. Paul Krugman is exactly right when he says:
The Iraq war wasn’t an innocent mistake, a venture undertaken on the basis of intelligence that turned out to be wrong. America invaded Iraq because the Bush administration wanted a war. The public justifications for the invasion were nothing but pretexts, and falsified pretexts at that.
This is blunter than I usually sound. Why am I putting it this way? I laid out as many details as I could in my book Blind Into Baghdad, and in an Atlantic article with the same name and one called “Bush’s Lost Year.” But here is a summary of things I saw first hand:
• I was in Washington on the morning of September 11, 2001. When the telephones started working again that afternoon, I called my children and parents, and my then-editors at The Atlantic, Michael Kelly and Cullen Murphy. After that, the very next call I made was to a friend who was working inside the Pentagon when it was hit, and had already been mobilized into a team planning the U.S.-strategic response. “We don’t know exactly where the attack came from,” he told me that afternoon. “But I can tell you where the response will be: in Iraq.” I wrote about this in The Atlantic not longer afterwards, and in my book. My friend was being honest in expressing his own preferences: He viewed Saddam Hussein as the basic source of instability in the region. But he made clear that even if he personally had felt otherwise, Iraq was where things were already headed.
• Four days after the 9/11 attacks, President Bush held a meeting of his advisors at Camp David. Soon after that meeting, rumors emerged of what is by now settled historical fact: that Paul Wolfowitz, with the apparent backing of Donald Rumsfeld, spoke strongly for invading Iraq along with, or instead of, fighting in Afghanistan. (For an academic paper involving the meeting, see this.) The principals voted against moving against Iraq immediately. But from that point on it was a matter of how and when the Iraq front would open up, not whether.
• Anyone who was paying attention to military or political trends knew for certain by the end of 2001 that the administration and the military were gearing up to invade Iraq. If you want a timeline, again I refer you to my book—or to this review of Bob Woodward’s Plan of Attack, which describes Bush’s meetings with General Tommy Franks in December, 2001, to draw up invasion plans. By late 2001 forces, weapons, and emphasis were already being diverted from Afghanistan in preparation for the Iraq war, even though there had not yet been any national “debate” over launching that war.
• Want some proof that we, at The Atlantic, took seriously the fact that the Iraq decision had already been made? By late February, 2002, our editors were basing our coverage plans on the certainty of the coming war. That month I started doing interviews for the article that ran in the November, 2002 issue of the print magazine but which we actually put online in August. It was called “The Fifty-First State” and its premise was: The U.S. is going to war, it will “win” in the short term, but God knows what it will then unleash.
• All this was a year before the invasion, seven months before Condoleezza Rice’s scare interview (“We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud”), also seven months before Rumsfeld’s “trained ape” quote (“There's no debate in the world as to whether they have these weapons. We all know that. A trained ape knows that”), and six months before Dick Cheney’s big VFW scare speech (“Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction”). It was long before the United States supposedly “decided” to go to war.
In the late summer of 2002, the public began hearing about the mounting WMD menace as the reason we had to invade Iraq. But that was not the reason. Plans for the invasion had already been underway for months. The war was already coming; the “reason” for war just had to catch up.
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Everyone who was around then knows it. You can look it up. And we had damned well better not forget it, in a fog of faux remorseful “Knowing what we now know...” sanitized history.
No person in the US deserves to be in prison more than George Bush.That won’t happen under the mob rules of the DC protection racket.
ReplyDeleteThe best we can legally do is expose and rebuke these murdering bastards for the criminal acts and human carnage that they and heir supporters have done.
"A Police Riot"
DeleteR I G H T
THINK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Advice from another McCain voter, bro, of yesteryear.
170 biker drug dealers in jail on million dollar bond !
DeleteGo good Blue Line !
Bunch of white assholes that have ZERO to contribute to society.
All one can hope is my wife on the Jury.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteShia Iraq in now part of "Greater Iran".
ReplyDeleteWhat can one say other than:
"Way to go, Bozo"
Jesus Christ, this country is drugged up and drunked up to the point of total incoherence.
I am building a little hunting shed out on the old place. I have named it "The Wolf Killing Lair".
And writing letters to my Divine Niece, wonderful woman, who works at The Max Planck Institute of Brain Research in Dresden, Germany.
The stars are beautiful, mysterious, divine....
Life can be wonderful.
Calling Mr GW Bush a clown and, by extension, his "Purple Fingers of Freedom" policy a circus may be accurate, Robert "Draft Dodger: Peterson, but it is certainly disrespectful of the President.
DeleteISIS has now ruled that women may not leave their homes without adult male escort.
ReplyDeleteShades of Iran.
Let them all slay one another.
No schooling, of course. Boko Haram.
DeleteWe might, and I can back it up philosophically, though the readers here might not immediately accept, be best off for the good of the world to exterminate all the savages, and repopulate with Swiss, or Swedes, or Jews.
I am willing to take on a discussion of this More Noble Sort.
It is after all just a thesis.
!400 hundred years of experience is my staring line.....
my starting line...
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteNoble Quirk will understand this.
DeleteCheers !!
out
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ReplyDeleteI don't want to live forever
Just want to know that I'm alive
Don't want to live forever
Just until the day I die
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteLet's face it:
ReplyDelete170 bikers in jail.
A biker Riot
And Deuce blames the Police.
Deuce is 'bonkers'.
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DeleteWell, admittedly, the old Deucester seems to be wound a bit tighter than usual of late.
:o)
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ReplyDeleteOne of the reasons I wish Rand Paul wasn't so political and tending towards assdom.
ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN: Quickly I want to ask you about the vote to reauthorize the Patriot Act. It’s coming up this week or the House version of it called the Freedom Act. This week in the Senate, all eyes on you. Are you going to filibuster this?
SEN. RAND PAUL: I’ll do whatever it takes to stop it. Whether or not I’m allowed to filibuster is another question. There’s sort of a paper filibuster that you can always do, demanding that there’s 60 votes and objecting, not giving them consent to proceed. That I will do.
So I will do a formal filibuster. Whether or not that means I can go to the Floor, some of that depends on what happens because you’re not always allowed, people don’t realize this, but you have to get to the Floor when the Floor allows you to come.
So whether that happens or not, I will filibuster the Patriot Act and I will do everything I can to try to adhere to the courts. The courts have now said the bulk collection of records is illegal. They should stop immediately.
ALISYN CAMEROTA: If you’re allowed to filibuster, you plan to talk for 13 hours or whatever it takes?
SEN. RAND PAUL: Well nobody can predict how long you can talk, but I plan on doing everything humanly possible to try to stop the Patriot Act.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/05/19/rand_paul_i_plan_on_doing_everything_humanly_possible_to_try_to_stop_the_patriot_act.html
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Israel has suspended new rules that would have had the effect of separating Palestinian and Jewish passengers on buses travelling to the West Bank.
ReplyDeleteThe defence ministry launched a three-month trial on Wednesday morning, but within hours Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said it was “unacceptable".
Groups representing Jewish settlers have been campaigning for segregated travel on security grounds.
But human rights groups described the measures as shameful and racist.
About 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since Israel's 1967 occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The settlements are considered illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.
’Apartheid’
The travel rules put in place by the Israeli defence ministry for a trial period on Wednesday would have applied to the tens of thousands of Palestinian workers who legally travel through checkpoints to work in Israel every day.
Instead of being free to travel home from Israel on any bus heading to the West Bank, the workers would have been required to return only on buses which went back to the checkpoint where they entered Israel - thus denying them access to shared buses which do not go to the checkpoints.
The effect would have been to segregate Jewish and Palestinian passengers onto different buses, says the BBC’s Kevin Connolly in Jerusalem.
The leader of Israel's opposition, Yitzhak Herzog of the Zionist Union, wrote on his Facebook page that the move was "a needless humiliation, a stain on the country's face and citizens", and had nothing to do with security.
We lost the war in Iraq. We will lose in Syria if we dare get into that and the thought that we would win against Iran is delusional.
ReplyDeleteIt was obvious to me in 1966 and obvious to everyone under an E-6 that we would lose Viet Nam. What was not obvious, was that we would continue the stupidity in the years ahead.
The cheerleaders who were wrong but never had any blood in the game are still on the sidelines, as always, no smarter, no wiser and not a thought to the lives that were destroyed then and the lives being destroyed now.
The war in Iraq is not lost.
DeleteThe Iraqi government that was installed, by the "Purple Fingers of Freedom" is churning right along.
It is defending itself against the radical Wahhabi who, themselves, have turned to remnants of Saddam's officer corps for combat leadership.
The masses of people in the various combat zones escape towards the government controlled areas, when the Daesh instigate combat operations in any Iraqi city. There are no masses of noncombatants migrating towards the Daesh.
It could be said that the US did not destroy all the vestiges of Saddam's regime, did not manage the Peace very well, did not supply the government it helped to install with aircraft, did not provide adequate training to the Army it established to defend the government of Iraq ...
But those failures do not constitute defeat, the war in Iraq that the US started, it is not over.
The fact that the US government tried to sell the people of the United States the idea that the War in Iraq was over, because US troops withdrew ... a show of hubris on the part of the US government.
DeleteThe fact that the US never cleared the sanctuary that the insurgents, remnants of Saddam's regime, found in Syria a lapse of military leadership. But Mr Bush thought the situation on the ground stable enough that he agreed that rather than allow US troops to be tried in Iraqi courts, he could bring them home.
GW had great faith in the government selected by the "Purple Fingers of Freedom".
Seems that Mr Obama still does.
The latest figures are in from Ramadi:
ReplyDeleteAmerican Casualties - 0
American Fatalities - 0
Not Bad, All Tolled.
I blame it all on Marlon Brando.
ReplyDeleteThat was the start.
The knife in the heart for the Western World was Mick Jagger..
Let me explain something to you. If I delete a comment, it is for cause and at my whim. If you don't like it, your alternate option will not be to repost it.
ReplyDeleteIn May 2005, Phillip's Humvee ran over a land mine. He was badly injured with collapsed lungs, a broken foot, a broken jaw and paralyzed limbs.
ReplyDeleteFor more than a year after his injuries, he convalesced in different hospitals. "He had so many surgeries that I lost count," says Ulerie.
With a low-interest veteran's loan, the family bought a wheelchair-accessible house in Richmond Heights. For the first time in years Phillip, an animal lover, could have a dog: a beloved shih tzu named Polly.
Ulerie takes care of Phillip round the clock. At 34, he can react and smile, but he still can't talk, eat solid food, move his limbs or maneuver his wheelchair. He passes time watching TV, playing computer games with his fingers and admiring Polly.
When health permits, he gets extensive therapy including weekly carriage rides at the Fieldstone Farm Therapeutic Riding Center in Bainbridge Township. With help, he can brush the horses.
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/05/brook_park-based_reserve_unit_10_years_after_costly_iraq_tour_photos.html
The discovery of widespread FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan suggests the assumption to be incorrect that FGM is primarily an African phenomenon with only marginal occurrence in the eastern Islamic world. FGM is practiced at a rate of nearly 60 percent by Iraqi Kurds, then how prevalent is the practice in neighboring Syria where living conditions and cultural and religious practices are comparable?
DeleteWhy should a single US soldier die to protect this horrid cultural practice,
Answer US that Robert "Draft Dodger" Peterson
ERBIL, Kurdistan Region – Iraq needs advisers and weapons to battle the jihadist fighters of the Islamic State, or ISIS, but no foreign troops are needed, including Iranian security forces, the government’s official spokesman told Rudaw.
ReplyDelete“Iraq doesn’t need ground forces. We are looking for arms and advisers,” Saad Hadisi, the Baghdad spokesman, said during the Tuesday edition of "Rudawy Emro," a daily news program on the Rudaw Media Network.
“We are not denying the fact that there are Iranian and other foreign military advisers inside Iraq, but we won’t allow ground troops from any countries to enter Iraq,” said Hadisi.
In response to reports that Tehran has a strong presence in Iraqi military and intelligence services, Hadisi confirmed: “Iran has been in great help to Iraq, and the country is open to help coming from other countries, especially neighboring states.”
The fall of Ramadi, capital of Anbar province, was a main point of discussion during the program. ISIS seized control of the city on May 17, sending Iraqi forces racing out of the city in an embarrassing loss despite the support of US-led airstrikes targeting the extremists' positions.
“Daesh has been continuously attacking the region, especially Ramadi. The battle for Anbar will be a long one and we need more forces and equipment,” he said.
Hadisi continued: “This issue needs to be analyzed by experts. Military commanders know best. But, what happened was just the fall of the center of Ramadi, while a large numbers of villages and sub-districts are still under the control of Iraqi forces.”
In fact, Hadisi told "Rudawy Emro" host Hemin Malazada the Iraqi Army's retreat was more strategic than has been reported.
“We are battling in a vast area and if something like this happens, it is totally normal for an army to withdraw from the area,” he said.
DeleteBaghdad spokesman: No foreign troops needed in Iraq
"... we won’t allow ground troops from any countries to enter Iraq,” said Hadisi.
DeleteLindsey Graham obviously does not respect the Iraqi government, those selected by the "Purple Fingers of Freedom".
ReplyDeleteIraq launches airstrikes on ISIS in Falluja
Iraq's air force launches strikes on ISIS positions in Falluja. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh reports.
It is a video report.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/05/19/ns-lkl-paton-walsh-iraq-troops-to-ramadi.cnn
ReplyDeleteGreece to Escape West’s Chokehold by Joining BRICS Bank – European Lawmaker
Last week, Russia invited Greece to become the sixth member of the BRICS New Development Bank.
Daria Chernyshova — Greece could climb out of the debt hole created for it by International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank if it accepts Russia’s proposal to join the BRICS New Development Bank (NDB), Sofia Sakorafa, a member of the European Parliament from the Greek ruling Syriza party, told Sputnik.
“[Greek] attempts to escape from the deadly embrace of the IMF and the World Bank have been made in the past. [The invitation to join] the bank of BRICS makes this effort the most advanced one to break the monopoly of terror.”
http://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/greece-to-escape-wests-chokehold-by-joining-brics-bank-european-lawmaker/
She stressed, that in order to make this attempt successful, the NDB must stick to its commitment to economic development instead of trying to strangle the Greek people as their Western creditors are currently doing.
Delete“The participation of Greece, therefore, in the new development bank of BRICS, with the objective to finance development projects, is an interesting alternative option that should be evaluated with great seriousness by the Greek government,” the Greek Member of the European Parliament stressed.
The real world reason why the Keystone pipeline should not be allowed any where near the Ogallala Aquifer, which is a mere 50 feet below the surface in Nebraska.
ReplyDeleteCBS News -
GOLETA, Calif. -- A broken pipeline spilled 21,000 gallons of crude oil into the ocean before it was shut off Tuesday, creating a slick stretching about 4 miles along the central California coastline, the U.S.
Pipes break, ask any plumber.
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ReplyDelete“Iraq doesn’t need ground forces. We are looking for arms and advisers,” Saad Hadisi, the Baghdad spokesman, said during the Tuesday edition of "Rudawy Emro," a daily news program on the Rudaw Media Network.
No doubt the Iraqi are looking for arms and lord knows they need more than just advisers.
Over the weekend, as ISIS fighters rolled into Ramadi, the capital of Iraq’s Anbar Province, one of them posted a video to the Internet. It was shot from a recently captured Iraqi police station, and showed box after box of American mortar shells and bullets that appeared shiny and new. Several Humvees, apparently not long out of the packing crates, sat abandoned nearby. “This is how we get our weapons,” the narrator said in Arabic. “The Iraqi officials beg the Americans for weapons, and then they leave them here for us.”
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ReplyDeleteAmerican Iraqi investment to date = $2 billion
American ROI = 0
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DeleteHell of an investment.
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Beats the hell out of Bush's $Trillion+ "investment."
Delete.
Delete:o)
Lordy, you will never change.
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The Legionnaire would abandon all those "Purple Fingers of Freedom".
DeleteI guess I could change into a crotchety old man, sitting around whining, and bitching about everything in the world, all day long, every day.
DeleteBut, I guess I won't.
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DeletePriceless. Ten months ago it was
- Dead men walking
- Death from above
- ISIS is on the defensive and unable to mount any attacks
- Look boss, it's the drones. The drones will make all the difference in this war.
- Don't get stuck in 20th Century thinking.
- A couple battalions and some air support and we should have this wrapped up pretty quickly.
- The way it's going we should have this wrapped up in a month or so.
- The way we are destroying their weapons and equipment half or more should be gone by the end of the year.
- There won't be any ISIS in Iraq by the 4th of July.
- By Memorial Day.
- It's pretty much all just open desert. Our AF are having wet dreams over this.
- You are witnessing something unprecedented in land warfare.
- The generals are just 'poor mouthing' when they say ISIS are well organized, well equipped, and can attack on multiple fronts at the same time
- Greatest one-sided massacre in the history of warfare.
- Greatest shooting gallery in the history of warfare.
- As close to a gimmee as we have ever seen.
and now,
- this is a continuation of Bush's war
- we have a responsibility to help the Iraqi government
but
- the Iraqis are perfectly able to handle everything
- we just need to keep providing them with arms (every time they misplace the ones we had previously given them).
besides things are going swimmingly, we have all the time in the world, and there's not much going on in the rest of the world to take up our attention.
As for Iran, the Shia militias, sectarian violence
La-dee-da.
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BEIRUT, Lebanon — Islamic State fighters fought their way into a part of the central Syrian city of Palmyra on Wednesday, bringing them within blocks of one of the world’s most magnificent ancient sites.
ReplyDeleteAs they have swept across Syria and Iraq, the extremists have destroyed or damaged numerous ancient sites and major cultural artifacts, condemning them as idolatry, even as they pillage and sell off more portable items to finance their activities. The militants’ approach to the ruins of ancient Palmyra, with their grand 2,000-year-old colonnades and tombs, has raised fears both locally and internationally that they too may be destroyed.
Iraqi soldiers firing at Islamic State positions in the Garma district as clashes continued in Anbar Province on Tuesday.Iraq’s Sunni Strategy Collapses in Ramadi.
Modern Palmyra, also known as Tadmur, is a relatively remote desert outpost of 50,000 people, but it sits astride the main road from the Islamic State strongholds in the east to the more populous west of Syria. It is also near gas fields that the militant group has repeatedly attacked, and last week managed to partially seize. Syrian government forces held the militants out of the city for several days, but withdrew from some checkpoints on Wednesday, residents said.
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ReplyDeleteIt is passing strange and wondrous that defeat can be turned to victory through the use of semantics. Some would deny that the US lost its ass net/net in Bush's war in Iraq when viewed in its totality. Lindsay Graham comes to mind. Some even do it by avoiding the word 'won' and instead extending the war in perpetuity and through using words like "It could be..." and "But..."
"But..."
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yet just yesterday Quirk, you argued:
Delete" What I have argued is that we have to proceed to the point, as quickly possible, where we can 'declare' we have won this war without the world snickering. If that requires adding additional troops to identify areas of opportunity and coordinate air strikes, so be it. It's unfortunate but it may have to be done."
Why is the need to save face so strong that one risks going down the rabbit hole like dubya's Iraq adventure, or the Vietnam adventure that, as you and Jack say 'no US politician dare suggest the nation stop bombing'?
It is wondrous that some can claim defeat, while others will tell US that there never was a 'Goal".
DeleteWell, I certainly remember the discussions of the "Flypaper Strategy", which is still in play.
I definitely know that it is better to fight 'them' "Over There", rather than "Here".
I also recall that there was the common meme ...
bob Mon Nov 16, 04:13:00 PM EST (2009)
I have the feeling we're going to get hit again, and soon, and hard.
Which never did happen, did it?
So, here it is ...
Were there mistakes made ? ... No doubt of it.
Did the US misstep when it decided to occupy Iraq? ... No doubt of it.
There was no major al-Qeada presence in Iraq prior to the US occupation, no doubt about it.
Should the US have deposed the fascist Baathist regime in Syria, when the US military was on a roll ? ... desert rat thought so.
Would it have made a difference in the current state of affairs ?
"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
- Donald Rumsfeld
trish Sun Dec 24, 12:35:00 AM EST
DeleteThe old fashioned way: Declare victory and come home.
Rat WAS always right about that.
Leaving the fighting to the proxies we installed as part of the "Purple Fingers of Freedom" program.
DeleteWhich the US has been doing. Should continue to do.
Providing the Iraqi with the essential military support the US did not provide the equipment required for them to handle, despite US promises to do so.
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DeleteIn 2001, we invaded Afghanistan because 'the Taliban wouldn't hand over OBL'. We went in in October and a couple months later, by the end of 2001, we had defeated the Taliban and pretty much everyone agreed OBL was in Pakistan. We had achieved our stated goal and should have started getting out. Instead we stayed for 13 years.
In 2003, our stated goal was to get Iraq's WMDs before it became regime change before it became bringing democracy to the ME. Bush declared war in mid-March, by the beginning of May he was declaring victory, by the end of the year Hussein had been captured and if was pretty much determined he had no WMD's left. There was no reason to stay but we did, for another seven years.
We had the opportunities in both countries to get out before we allowed ourselves to be sucked in. That is what I am hoping for in Obama's Iraq war for the reasons I have stated a number of times here. However, we have now been in this current fracas for 10 months and as far as I can see have accomplished very little. Under the current strategy, I am beginning to doubt we will.
You could be right. While some consider flying around dropping bombs with little effect but at minimal cost a success, I don't really see the point.
Why is the need to save face so strong that one risks going down the rabbit hole like dubya's Iraq adventure, or the Vietnam adventure that, as you and Jack say 'no US politician dare suggest the nation stop bombing'?
I've answered this question for you a number of times. If you can't understand my English or somehow think that if you continue to repeat the question it will change what I have said to you, I suggest you stop wasting your time asking the question.
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DeleteMy response was in response to Ash' post.
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I had to go back to find the answer you've given "many times". Is it Hemmingway's simplistic dictum?
Delete"Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war."
Was that approach not followed in Vietnam? In dubya's Iraq adventure? Why will this time be different? What "worse things" would happen if the US would stop its bombing campaign?
Sorry for all the questions but I really fail to see the logic you are trying to convey.
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DeleteAsh the US has bigger fish to fry than the shit hole that is the ME. Our alliances are being threatened by Russia in Europe, by China in the Far East, the Pacific, and even in South America, and by various other states and groups around the world. The US has been weakened by past misadventures. This has resulted not only from our apparent incompetence but also from the impression that the US is an inconsistent partner, one who ignores commitments.
We both agree we should never have gotten involved in Iraq. You suggest that although now involved in the war, the US should cut and run, merely say to our coalition partners, 'Sorry guys, we were just kidding. We'll give you a call the next time we need a coalition'. I disagree. To my mind, there is a tipping point, one we crossed 10 months ago and after crossing that point we need to move forward a certain degree before we can withdraw. To not do so, IMO, will further degrade any reputation the US has as a reliable ally or a lead nation in the world.
To be viewed as a paper tiger is as bad as actually being a paper tiger.
That's as clear as I can make it, Ash. If you still don't get it, well...
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I agree it is bad to not follow through on what one says will be done but sometimes it is good to change course.
DeleteWhat is worse - to be a paper tiger or to wage war for many years and still not achieve ones objectives?
Would it have been worse to not have followed through with the Vietnam war (i.e. abandon the fight after Kennedy's insertion of 'advisors') or to fight it, as we did, and not win?
I submit it is better to say 'bombing to degrade ISIS is not achieving the goals we desire so lets try a different approach' than to 'commit ever more blood and treasure to degrade ISIS in the hope that it will work'.
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DeleteI submit it is better to say 'bombing to degrade ISIS is not achieving the goals we desire so lets try a different approach'
You would try to put the genii back in the bottle and ignore the last 10 months. The only 'different approach' you have offered is to stop the bombing. Your solution gets us right back to the problem I explained.
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There are many problems. Which problem, specifically, are you referring to?
Delete.
DeleteThe one I described three posts up for Christ sake.
Go away, Ash. You are becoming tiresome. We disagree. Let's leave it at that.
And if you don't understand where we disagree, please don't come back and ask me. Evidently, I don't speak Canadian English.
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3 posts up? I don't see any specific problem formulated but I'm guess the problem, in your view, is US reputation aka Saving Face.
DeleteI think it silly to think that deviating from a decision made 10 months ago, modifying it if you will, will change perception much of the US in comparison to it's reputation gained through Gulf War 1, 2, Vietnam and WWII, and Afghanistan.
Have a nice day.
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DeleteI will grant you this, Ash, if the US continues its current course, call it strategy, tactics, or conduct of the war, I will fully agree with you that we should get out even without achieving some objective progress.
Strictly my opinion of course, but the way I see the US pursuing this war at the moment is wrong in the following sense,
- We have adopted the 'lead from behind' policy Obama is so fond of but unlike, Libya for instance, we have apparently deferred the decision making in the war to Baghdad.
- In doing so, we have minimized the help we could have expected from the Kurds and Sunnis.
- In doing so, we have elevated Iran's role in the decision making process.
- When American generals say they see that as a positive, IMO, you have to question the leadership of this war.
- We seem willing to accept the role of a mercenary willing to sit and wait until called in by Baghdad.
- In the eyes of the world, the US and our 'grand coalition' will be viewed as responsible for the outcome of the war though we have ceded the authority to conduct it.
- If a victory is achieved in Iraq, it will likely be Iran and the Shia militias that will get most of the credit that is accorded.
- If there is a disaster, the US will assume a good part of the blame.
If those policies don't change, I agree we might as well get out.
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Would we know what victory would look like if we saw it...
Delete.
DeleteIf you listen to Obama it is 'degrading and destroying' ISIS. Good luck.
If you listen to me, it would be a big victory of some sort, taking back Ramadi for instance (Mosul might be a bridge too far) with the use of US air power plus a prolonged period (maybe six months or so) where the Iraqi government and army looks somewhat competent and capable and are able to hold territory or even gain some back against ISIS. At that point, I think we could credibly say we stopped the ISIS momentum, helped reverse it, and got our allies in Iraq up to speed to the point they could carry on without us.
It might all be bull but what part of politics isn't?
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I don't get it. You'd think that ISIS took Roanoke, not Ramadi.
ReplyDeleteIt's Iraq, folks, not Iowa.
Last week, the Daesh overran a city. Next week, or the week after, the Iraqi Army, or the Shia, or some combination of the two will take it back.
Meantime, we're killing seventy or eighty murderers/day, and our casualty count is exactly Zero.
In some parts of the world they call this "Wednesday."
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DeleteYou describe the situation perfectly.
We have been there for 10 months, dropping a few bombs each day to very little effect. What is the strategy? More to the point, what is the point?
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ReplyDeleteIraq has pleaded for volunteers to fight Isis as Shia militias backed by Iran prepare for a counter-attack to recapture Ramadi.
The capital of Anbar province was overrun by the so-called Islamic State last week and militants are believed to have seized tanks, ammunition and weapons left by fleeing Iraqi soldiers.
Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi had pleaded with troops not to abandon their posts but footage showed them clinging on to trucks speeding away from the city on Sunday as charred bodies were left where they lay in the streets.
Iraq has pleaded for volunteers to fight Isis as Shia militias backed by Iran prepare for a counter-attack to recapture Ramadi.
The capital of Anbar province was overrun by the so-called Islamic State last week and militants are believed to have seized tanks, ammunition and weapons left by fleeing Iraqi soldiers.
Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi had pleaded with troops not to abandon their posts but footage showed them clinging on to trucks speeding away from the city on Sunday as charred bodies were left where they lay in the streets.
He chaired a meeting of Iraq’s Council of Ministers on Tuesday that resulted in a call for Iraqis to “stand unified” against Isis, namely by joining the army.
“The Council asserted the determination of the Iraqi government to liberate every inch of the immaculate Iraqi land from the filth of Da’esh (Isis) terrorist gangs,” a statement said.
It issued a declaration calling for “voluntary recruitment” to the army, particularly in squadrons decimated by battles across Anbar province.
The Council also vowed to prosecute those circulating unspecified “false rumours” undermining military morale and called for more international help fighting Isis with arms, supplies and money for reconstruction.
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The Iraqi Army knows it is over just as the ARVN knew in 1975. Most of them knew way before that. Everyone that I spoke with knew it was over in 1966. Desertions in the ARVN ran about 20%, but not on a wholesale basis as is now the norm in Iraq. Even the most gungho mutherfucker in the Pentagon knows that there is no politically sustainable way to keep Iraq whole.
Every dollar and every US casualty was wasted on this clusterfuck in Iraq and yet the Neocons and their GOP support groups still want to go after Syria and Iran. The American people will have none of it.
Neocons, GOP support groups, and Jack, and Rufus, and Quirk too!
DeleteNot me, Ash.
DeleteI just have outlined the lowest profile operational program that is possible.
No ground troops, just providing to the Iraqi what the US refused to provide for them to do it themselves, despite promises to do so.
Iraq for the Iraqi, the US should stand beside those "Purple Fingers of Freedom".
Not accept al-Qeada operatives assuming power in Iraq or Syria.
Bush and the Neocons will have destroyed Iraq, strengthened Iran and when ISIS consolidates its new holdings, they will take apart Saudi Arabia.
ReplyDeleteYou can’t fix a broken army.
ReplyDeleteGrant did. :)
DeletePatton did.
DeleteNow, Iraq just has to find a couple of "Pattons, and Grants." :) :) :)
DeleteEarly this year, lawmakers asked Obama to send a draft of war powers he would like to see in a new Authorization for the Use of Military Force. Congress believes a new AUMF is needed because Obama is relying on war authorizations given to President George W. Bush after 9/11.
ReplyDeleteBoehner accused the president of having no strategy to fight IS and lamented the group's weekend takeover of the strategic Iraqi city of Ramadi.
"The president's request for an authorization of the use of military force calls for less authority than he has today," Boehner said. "I just think, given the fight that we're in, it's irresponsible. This is why the president, frankly, should withdraw the authorization of the use of military force and start over."
White House press secretary Josh Earnest accused Congress of being "AWOL when it comes to the AUMF."
He said the White House sent up its draft of new war powers in February and has held dozens of meetings about it with Democratic and Republican lawmakers and members of their staffs.
"At some point, it has to be the responsibility of the Speaker of the House to do his job and for members of Congress to do their job,"
We tried it in Viet Nam, Afghanistan and Iraq except in Iraq it was worse. We attacked a country where the best job available for a working class guy was the military. Under the genius of George AWOL Bush, we fired the lot of them and sent them home without a pay check but still armed. What could possibly go wrong?
ReplyDeleteMost of the informed have come to accept that historical reality, Deuce.
DeleteBut ...
Never look back unless you're planning to go that way.
- Henry David Thoreau
Going forward, we need to do 'something'.
Some, even here at the Elephant Bar, have called for US to invade Iraq, again.
Other advocate for complete disengagement, to somehow provide 'humanitarian aid' to people on ground controlled by headhunters, without killing the headhunters in the process.
The sane approach, assist those that have answered our call, those that have embraced the concept of "Purple Fingers of Freedom" by helping them, a little.
By strengthening Iran's position the US has weakened the Saudi Arabians ...
DeleteThat is success in the "War on Terror", the Saudi were much more involved in creating the organization that attacked the US on 11SEP2001 than the Iranians.
There is an AUMF which targets the Saudi proxies, none at all concerning the Iranians or their proxies.
If the "Purple Fingers of Freedom" have seen that the Iranians are more supportive of a free Iraq than are the Saudi, we should follow their lead. Not try to force them to dance to a US tune.
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DeleteNot only has the US created ISIS, under Obama's current strategy there we are supplying them with all the arms they need.
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There is a long term strategy behind all of this that you don't follow, Quirk.
DeleteI can't explain it here, but there is.
I might get 'deleted' by our so sensitive Boss D, who is firm on the 1st Amendment, being entirely against it.
Always run like hell if a Persian gal lifts her skirt....
I laugh at folk who think first amendment rights means that some publisher, like Deuce, need publish what you want them to.
DeleteThe old Deucester is a sensitive old guy.
ReplyDeleteFor sure.
He don't like to be reminded that he voted for McCain.
He don't like great potry either.
Sensitive young soul he is.
Hey !
ReplyDeleteOnly one hand fingers till Memorial Day !!!!
Can't wait for Day One Left, the middle finger day.
DeleteHa ha ha
The Criminal is a fool.
You're going to raise your "Purple Finger of Freedom" Robert "Draft Dodger" Peterson?
DeleteDeuce and Rufus both voted for McCain.
ReplyDeleteRufus fesses up, being an honest old fart, The Deucester can't stand to be reminded.
Naw, I think it is because you are being a twerp.
DeleteWonder letter from my Niece.
ReplyDeleteShe is SuperNova.
Hubble is for kids.
She ain't no Muslima, and that's for sure.
Delete:)
She's That.
At the well head of the spring.
Where It pours into the earth.
Tat Tvam Asi.
... and she ain’t your niece.
DeleteThat’s for sure.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteyou, Rufus, how do they do it? How do just 25,000 headcutters take two cities in a week or two? Ramadi and now Palmyra.
ReplyDeleteWell looky here American politicians can indeed change course:
ReplyDelete"Facing threatened retaliation from Canada over “country of origin” meat labelling ruled unlawful by the World Trade Organization, the U.S. Congress moved quickly on Wednesday to start to repeal the requirement.
“In light of the World Trade Organization’s decision and the certainty that we face significant retaliation by Canada and Mexico, we cannot afford to delay action,” said Texas Republican Mike Conaway, chairman of the House of Representatives agriculture committee.
The committee overwhelming approved legislation to repeal the labelling, voting 38-6 in favour on Wednesday and sending the measure to the full House of Representatives. Both Republicans and Democrats backed the repeal."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-house-to-consider-repeal-of-meat-labelling-law-after-wto-ruling/article24508032/
By ERYN BROWN contact the reporter Scientific Research Archaeology
Archeologists unearth 3.3 million-year-old stone tools in Kenya; earliest yet discovered
Ancient stone implements hint that scientists may not fully understand the story of early human evolution
Scientists working in Kenya have unearthed the oldest known stone tools, simple cutting and pounding implements crafted by ancient members of the human lineage 3.3 million years ago.
At about 700,000 years older than the other stone tools excavated to date, the discovery hints that anthropologists may have had the wrong idea about the evolution of humans and technology, said Stony Brook University archeologist Jason Lewis, coauthor of a study describing the find published Wednesday in the journal Nature.
Before the 2003 war Iraq, under the authoritarian dictatorship of Saddam and his predecessor, had the highest level of education in the Middle East. When you point this out you’re accused of being a Saddam apologist, but Baghdad University in the 1980s had more female professors than Princeton did in 2009; there were crèches to make it easier for women to teach at schools and universities.
ReplyDeleteIn Baghdad and Mosul – currently occupied by Islamic State – there were libraries dating back centuries. The Mosul library was functioning in the eighth century, and had manuscripts from ancient Greece in its vaults. The Baghdad library, as we know, was looted after the occupation, and what’s going on now in the libraries of Mosul is no surprise, with thousands of books and manuscripts destroyed.
Everything that has happened in Iraq is a consequence of that disastrous war, which assumed genocidal proportions. The numbers who died are disputed, because the Coalition of the Willing doesn’t count up the civilian casualties in the country it’s occupying. Why should it bother? But others have estimated that up to a million Iraqis were killed, mainly civilians. The puppet government installed by the Occupation confirmed these figures obliquely in 2006 by officially admitting that there were five million orphans in Iraq. The occupation of Iraq is one of the most destructive acts in modern history.
Even though Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked, the social and political structure of the Japanese state was maintained; although the Germans and Italians were defeated in the Second World War, most of their military structures, intelligence structures, police structures and judicial structures were kept in place, because there was another enemy already in the offing – communism. But Iraq was treated as no other country has been treated before. The reason people don’t quite see this is that once the occupation began all the correspondents came back home. You can count the exceptions on the fingers of one hand: Patrick Cockburn, Robert Fisk, one or two others. Iraq’s social infrastructure still isn’t working, years after the occupation ended; it’s been wrecked. The country has been demodernised. The West has destroyed Iraq’s education services and medical services; it handed over power to a group of clerical Shia parties which immediately embarked on bloodbaths of revenge. Several hundred university professors were killed. If this isn’t disorder, what is?
{...}
{...}
DeleteIn the case of Afghanistan, everyone knows what was actually behind this grand attempt, as the US and Britain put it, to ‘modernise’ the country. Cherie Blair and Laura Bush said it was a war for women’s liberation. If it had been, it would have been the first in history. We now know what it really was: a crude war of revenge which failed because the occupation strengthened those it sought to destroy. The war didn’t just devastate Afghanistan and what infrastructure it had, but destabilised Pakistan too, which has nuclear weapons, and is now also in a very dangerous state.
These two wars haven’t done anyone any good, but they have succeeded in dividing the Muslim and Arab world, whether or not this was intended. The US decision to hand over power to clerical Shia parties deepened the Sunni-Shia divide: there was ethnic cleansing in Baghdad, which used to be a mixed city in a country where intermarriage between Sunni and Shia was common. The Americans acted as if all Sunnis were Saddam supporters, yet many Sunnis suffered arbitrary jail sentences under him. But the creation of this divide has ended Arab nationalism for a long time to come. The battles now are to do with which side the US backs in which conflict. In Iraq, it backs the Shia.
The demonisation of Iran is deeply unjust, because without the tacit support of the Iranians the Americans could not have taken Iraq. And the Iraqi resistance against the occupation was only making headway until the Iranians told the Shia leader Muqtada al-Sadr, who’d been collaborating with Sunni opponents of the regime, to call it off. He was taken to Tehran and given a ‘holiday’ there for a year. Without Iranian support in both Iraq and Afghanistan it would have been very difficult for the United States to sustain its occupations. Iran was thanked with sanctions, further demonisation, double standards – Israel can have nuclear weapons, you can’t. The Middle East is now in a total mess: the central, most important power is Israel, expanding away; the Palestinians have been defeated and will remain defeated for a very long time to come; all the principal Arab countries are wrecked, first Iraq, now Syria; Egypt, with a brutal military dictatorship in power, is torturing and killing as if the Arab Spring had never happened – and for the military leaders it hasn’t.{...}
As for Israel, the blind support it gets from the US is an old story. And to question it, nowadays, is to be labelled an anti-Semite. The danger with this strategy is that if you say to a generation which had no experience of the Holocaust outside of movies that to attack Israel is anti-Semitic, the reply will be: so what? ‘Call us anti-Semitic if you want,’ young people will say. ‘If that means opposing you, we are.’ So it hasn’t helped anyone. It’s inconceivable that any Israeli government is going to grant the Palestinians a state. As the late Edward Said warned us, the Oslo Accords were a Palestinian Treaty of Versailles. Actually, they are much worse than that.
Deletehttp://www.alternet.org/world/us-leading-world-whole-new-kind-disorder
YOU are REALLY fucked up.
DeleteWe are all hoping it's just the result of the Persian skirt.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteThe REAL Deuce is showing his colors today.
ReplyDeleteHe's playing in the sand, a gaped toothed kid -
DeleteThat why we all love him -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPn0KFlbqX8&list=RDLPn0KFlbqX8
When even Quirk concludes you've 'lost' your mind, it's help time.
ReplyDelete.
Delete???
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A Young Prince wandered far from his Father's Estate, far from the Castle, his true home, and in the jungle of life forgot whom he was, and became a pauper, and felt abandoned, and, with luck, or with the nature of things, found his way back to his proper Estate, the castle, and he remembered who and what he had always been, a Prince.
ReplyDeleteMeister Eckhardt, sermons
May Deuce find his way.