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Monday, April 29, 2013

The Battle for Afghanistan - William Dalrymple - Return of a King

One man out of eighteen  thousand British that left Kabul six days earlier made it to Jalalabad:





The First Western War In Afghanistan Was An Imperial Disaster'
by NPR STAFF
April 25, 2013 3:26 AM


STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
Almost any news article about the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan may mention past foreign armies that came to the country and went down to defeat. Our next guest explores one of the most famous defeats of all. Our story begins in 1839. Two powerful empires, Great Britain and Russia, were caught in a military chess match, trying to outmaneuver one another for dominance of Central Asia.
The writer William Dalrymple has taken an unusually deep look at what happened next. His new book "Return of a King," details British efforts to win Afghanistan by putting an ousted Afghan monarch back on this throne.

WILLIAM DALRYMPLE: It is the greatest imperial disaster the British Empire ever suffered. It makes Yorktown seem like a picnic in the park.

INSKEEP: Yorktown meaning Britain loss of their empire in the United States.

DALRYMPLE: Exactly. It is a total wipeout of an entire army, the army of the most powerful empire in the world at that time.

INSKEEP: And if you read any history of the British Empire, you get an account of this. It is horrifying, no matter how many times you read it, and yet you, in this history, end up taking a different approach to the story. We normally read about it from the perspective of the bumbling and ultimately defeated British army.

DALRYMPLE: Correct. The key, it seemed to me, if you were going to revisit what is one of the, as you say, the great sort of old chestnuts of imperial history, was trying to - with the Afghan side, too. And I traveled all around Afghanistan in 2009 and 2010, gathering Afghan accounts. And it turned out there's a very, very rich sea of Afghan primary sources about this war.
This is for the Afghans what Washington is to you guys. For the British, I suppose, the Battle of Trafalgar or Waterloo is for us. This is the great national liberation struggle.

INSKEEP: What kind of documents are there in Afghanistan, after all these years of war, that you can find from the 1830s and '40s?

DALRYMPLE: Well, bizarrely, there's extremely well-preserved national archives in Afghanistan. The Taliban may go around knocking down the museums, but they don't knock down the archives. But the richest sources I found were two extraordinary epic poems written immediately after the war, rather like the "Song of Roland," these are kind of almost mythologized, but containing lots of interesting information about Afghan attitudes to the British, and so on.
There's one called the "Jangnama," there's another called the "Akbarnama," after the leading Afghan freedom fighter of that time. Indeed, the main diplomatic enclave in Kabul today is still called Wazir Akbar Khan, after the man who defeated the British. There's also - and this is, in a sense, the richest thing I found, I think - was the autobiography of the man the British installed.
INSKEEP: Okay. So you were able to gather historical documents to get the facts from the Afghan point of view. You had these epic poems to provide color commentary, and you discover a central character who becomes more than a name, this guy that we would think of as a puppet ruler who was installed. But Shah Shuja was originally a legitimate king of Afghanistan, right?

DALRYMPLE: He was - I mean, today, we think of Afghanistan as this poor, benighted country riddled by war. But in the Middle Ages, Afghanistan was one of the great centers of culture in the region. And Shah Shuja is very much, in a sense, the last ebb of this moment. He's a great admirer of gardens, a connoisseur of poetry. He's an enormously civilized figure, and by the standards of the time, merciful and lenient and liberal.

INSKEEP: But in the early 1800s, he lost his job.

DALRYMPLE: This guy - who has inherited the remains of his grandfather's empire at the age of only 17 - he's kicked out. He takes refuge in British India, where the British tuck him away and give him a pension, realizing that this guy could be useful in the future. Then, with the Great Game building up between Britain and Russia, there's competition for Asia between these two European land-based empires.

INSKEEP: The British going out of their base in India, which they controlled, and the Russians, of course, spreading across Asia from the north.

DALRYMPLE: Exactly that. And they both realize, if you look at the map, that these two empires are going to converge somewhere in the middle in the Hindu Kush, in this unmapped, unknown territory in the middle of Asia.

INSKEEP: And so the British decide they need to get an army in there first.

DALRYMPLE: They do. And it's an absurd undertaking, because at this point, the British and the Russians are still about 1,000 miles apart. Nonetheless, the British do this extraordinary, epic invasion of Afghanistan. They go around the sides of the Punjab. They go up the Indus, through the Bolan and Khojak passes.
They drag this artillery up mountainsides, and they actually get to Afghanistan. They hardly fight a battle, but they lose a quarter of their force to dehydration and bad planning and starvation, and it's this hellish march. Such is the surprise when they turn up in Afghanistan. The rulers of Kandahar flee. They take Kandahar without a shot being fired.
Shah Shuja is installed in his old palace in Kabul. It looks as if it's a huge success. You have a whole winter when the British are just going shooting and ice skating and taking the foxhounds out for exercise.

INSKEEP: Renting houses in town in Kabul.

DALRYMPLE: It's a very familiar scene, and everyone seems to be happy. But then a year later, the Afghans become so alienated by the British troops' whoring and drinking and misbehaving in Kabul, the country rises up as one. The British have no intuition that this is coming. They're taken completely by surprise. And it's very, very quick. The first day, the British deputy governor, Alexander Burns, is killed in his house.
He's taken the girlfriend of one of the Afghan leading noblemen, and this nobleman attacks his house. Such is the ease with which he kills the deputy governor. They then go on to capture the arms and the ammunition of the British force, which has stupidly been left in an isolated position outside the main British cantonment. And this siege then begins.
The British governor in charge of the whole force goes out to negotiate, is shot dead by the negotiating party. So the British have lost their general, their governor. They're surrounded. They have no money. They have no arms. They have no option but to surrender.

INSKEEP: And things only get worse from there. And this is one of the things that I wonder, because it's a question that has resonance today, as we think about the recent war in Iraq or we think about the war in Afghanistan. One of the questions people have to ask is: Is this just a tactical problem? Are we fighting a good war that we're just not doing very well, or is it a fundamentally strategic problem? Is this a war where we shouldn't be there at all?
Which was it for the British?

DALRYMPLE: I think, in both cases, it's both. The British are led by an incredibly incompetent general and their civilian forces directed by an incredibly incompetent governor. So partly, it's strategic error. But it is true that the Afghans have never liked being ruled by foreigners. They never liked being ruled by non-Muslims.
It's difficult enough for an Afghan to unite all the different tribes, all the different ethnicities, all the different forms of Islam. And a combination of idiotic leadership, a lack of understanding of the country and arrogance and overconfidence means that when the British go into retreat, 18,000 men, women and children leave the British fortress on the 6th of January, 1842. Six days later, one man alone makes it through to Jalalabad.

INSKEEP: There's even a famous painting of it, of this last British soldier barely managing to stay on his horse.

DALRYMPLE: Lady Butler's famous picture, yes. But for the British, this is one of the great iconic images of the 19th century.

INSKEEP: But let's go back to the Afghan perspective. This defeat for the British was celebrated by the Afghans.

DALRYMPLE: Exactly. I mean, for the Afghans, this is nothing short of miraculous. You know, the British may regard this as the great sort of brave defeat, but for the Afghans, this is the center of their national myth, this idea that they will see out any invader, that they will kick them out sooner or later. They did it to the British. They did it to the Russians. And now, in their view, they're about to do it to the Americans.
INSKEEP: The latest book by William Dalrymple is "Return of a King: The Battle for Afghanistan 1839 - '42." Mr. Dalrymple, thanks very much again.

DALRYMPLE: Thank you, Steve.

160 comments:

  1. For the Afghans, this is nothing short of miraculous. You know, the British may regard this as the great sort of brave defeat, but for the Afghans, this is the center of their national myth, this idea that they will see out any invader, that they will kick them out sooner or later. They did it to the British. They did it to the Russians. And now, in their view, they’re about to do it to the Americans.

    ReplyDelete
  2. ... led by an incredibly incompetent general and their civilian forces directed by an incredibly incompetent governor. ...

    The past echoes through to the present.

    ReplyDelete
  3. This William Dalrymple, in 25 minutes explains what has happened in Afghanistan better than everything that you have heard or read in the past 11 years. It is amazing to listen and contemplate the depth of our delusions in the Middle East.

    ReplyDelete
  4. There is not one American in 500 that knows about how the Afghans wiped out the British invasion force of 18,000 down to one man in only six days, but I dare say every Afghan schoolboy knows. That is some serious OOrah outside the wire.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Whoa! This blog looks exactly like my old one!
    It's on a completely different topic but it has pretty much the same layout and design. Excellent choice of colors!

    Look into my web-site - Usuario:EvelyneHo - BiblioNet SemCali

    ReplyDelete
  6. No one is running us out of Afghanistan. We are leaving because we no longer care to stay. We could stay indefinitely if we wanted to do so. No one really wants to stay.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There is no comparison whatsoever between the capacities of our forces in Afghanistan, without ever mentioning what we could put there if we wished, or what we could actually do if we really decided to get tough, and the British forces back then. We could destroy all of Pashtunland in couple of weeks if we wanted to do so, without even using nuclear weapons.

      To compare the two situations is simply bullshit.

      Obama said it was the war we must win, the really important war. He was just bullshitting us of course.

      But we could 'win the war' if we wanted, simply by bombing the whole of Pashtunland to rubble.

      Delete
    2. It was rubble before the Marines went there, it will be rubble when the Marines leave.

      Afghanistan is all about the opium, which the US wants to flow.
      So it does.

      More now than before the US arrived.

      Delete
    3. It is the opium that will keep US there in Afpakistan after the regular Army and Marines pull out.

      Unlike Iraq.

      Or that's what we are being told

      Feb 22, 2013
      German Defense Minister Thomas de Maiziere told reporters Panetta had informed him at the Brussels meeting that the United States would leave between 8,000 and 10,000 troops in the war-torn country at the end of 2014.

      But Panetta, speaking to reporters later, called de Maiziere’s comments inaccurate.

      Panetta, ... told reporters that he and the NATO partners instead talked about ranges of options for the post-2014 troop force. And he said the figures reflected contributions that other nations would make, in addition to the United States.

      His spokesman, George Little, told reporters that the range for an international force was 8,000 to 12,000.

      Delete
  7. A little off topic, but it is about war. Some here will not like it.


    Were he alive today, I'm certain he would be proud that he has among his multitude of descendents, spread from sea to shining sea, quite a few biracial and black grandchildren, including my own sons. Over the years, through both marriage and adoption, his family has transformed from its pasty, potato-white British origins to a beautiful spectrum ranging from black to brown to white, with many, many beautiful shades in between.

    I am reminded of one of the latter verses in the Battle Hymn of the Republic:



    In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
    With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
    As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
    While God is marching on.



    April 30, 2013
    Let Us Die to Make Men Free
    Doug Mainwaring

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/04/let_us_die_to_make_men_free.html

    It is from that site that Rufus hates, that Rufus, who has admitted to voting racially on occasion, once called 'racist'.

    g'nite

    This article doesn't seem in the least racist to me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. But first, here's a good idea by a wonderful woman and her group -

      AFDI Calls for Closure of Mosques That Breed Jihad Terror

      AFDI Executive Director Pamela Geller said in a statement: "In accord with those calls for responsible law enforcement regarding subversive activities in U.S. mosques, we are asking that government and law enforcement officials launch immediate investigations into the Islamic Society of Boston, the Dar al-Hijrah Mosque of Fairfax County, Virginia, and the Noor Center of Columbus, Ohio."

      Geller emphasized: "These mosques are not unique. There are many others like them. But they are the tip of the spear. It is time that our officials demand that they obey American laws, or be held accountable for not doing so."


      http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/04/afdi-calls-for-closure-of-mosques-that-breed-jihad-terror.html

      Please no 'freedom of religion' B.S.

      They are plotting murder, subversion and treason in there.

      Delete
    2. In the Halls of Congress there are murder plots and subversion and treason.

      Please no B.S. about 'democracy'

      Delete
    3. .

      They are plotting murder, subversion and treason in there.

      The answer to a test question at the back of Religion for Dummies by Pam Geller published by JihadWatch.org (2005), a book that is part of Bob's extensive "For Dummmies" book library.

      .

      .

      Delete
    4. In the Halls of Congress there are murder plots and subversion and treason.

      Please no B.S. about 'democracy'


      :)

      heh, you do have something of a point there, anon.

      Delete
  8. NATO commanders have unofficially asked the Russian Defense Ministry for information on the Soviet troop withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989, in order to use the experience in the planned pull out from the country, a Russian newspaper has revealed.

    NATO officials are interested in meeting the participants of the 1989 operation and also in a joint study of all related papers Kommersant daily wrote quoting unnamed sources in NATO.

    The request was secret because the western military commanders did not want to draw parallels between the current coalition mission in Afghanistan and the Soviet stay in this country.

    The Russian Defense Ministry said that there were no reasons to reject the request and most likely some documents will be provided.

    NATO officials have said they had not used the Soviet Military experience when planning the withdrawal of the coalition troops from Afghanistan. Chairman of the Military Committee General Knud Bartels reiterated this stance during his visit to Moscow in December. But Kommersant suggested that the topic might be raised again at the international security conference in Moscow due in late May.

    Russia and NATO will also be holding a conference at foreign ministers’ level on April 23.

    Russia’s envoy to NATO Aleksandr Glushko said in a press interview on Friday that Russia was offering to use the Baltic port of Ust-Luga for use in the troop withdrawal from Afghanistan. The Russian official added that the existing transit route via the airport in Ulyanovsk remains operative.

    In early April NATO’s deputy secretary general Alexander Vershbow said that transporting coalition cargo through the Ulyanovsk transport hub appeared to be too expensive and the alliance might stop using it.

    Glushko praised the existing level of Russia-NATO cooperation and said that it gives additional opportunities to promote Russian military hardware on foreign markets. He noted that cutting the military budget might make foreign officials pay closer attention to Russian products that were effective and tested and offered at much lower prices.

    ReplyDelete
  9. “The biggest source of corruption in Afghanistan”, one American official said, “was the United States.”

    (Reuters) - Tens of millions of U.S. dollars in cash were delivered by the CIA in suitcases, backpacks and plastic shopping bags to the office of Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai for more than a decade, the New York Times says, citing current and former advisers to the Afghan leader.
    The so-called "ghost money" was meant to buy influence for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) but instead fuelled corruption and empowered warlords, undermining Washington's exit strategy from Afghanistan, the newspaper quoted U.S. officials as saying.
    “The biggest source of corruption in Afghanistan", one American official said, "was the United States."

    The CIA declined to comment on the report and the U.S. State Department did not immediately comment. The New York Times did not publish any comment from Karzai or his office.

    "We called it 'ghost money'," Khalil Roman, who served as Karzai's chief of staff from 2002 until 2005, told the New York Times. “It came in secret and it left in secret."

    There was no evidence that Karzai personally received any of the money, Afghan officials told the newspaper. The cash was handled by his National Security Council, it added.

    In response to the report, Karzai told reporters in Helsinki after a meeting with Finnish leaders that the office of the National Security Council had been receiving support from the U.S. government for the past 10 years. He said the amounts had been “not big" and the funds were used for various purposes including assistance for the wounded.

    "It's multi-purpose assistance," he said, without commenting on the report's claims the funds fuelled corruption and empowered warlords.
    However, Afghan Foreign Ministry spokesman Janan Mosazai told reporters in Kabul that there was no proof or evidence to back up the claims in the story.

    For more than a decade the cash was dropped off every month or so at the Afghan president's office, the New York Times said. Handing out cash has been standard procedure for the CIA in Afghanistan since the start of the war.

    ReplyDelete
  10. American Know-how on Nation Building

    Pakistan’s failing relationship with Afghanistan
    Tuesday, 30 April 2013

    Mansoor Jafar
    As U.S.-led NATO forces brace themselves for a likely pullout from Afghanistan, from the longest and costliest military campaign in history, the already tense relationship between Afghanistan and Pakistan has begun experiencing hiccups. The faltering relationship threatens to push south Asia into a new era of destabilization.

    The latest trouble between the bickering neighbors is a controversy over a concrete gate erected by Pakistan on its border with Afghanistan to check infiltration into its territory. But Kabul, which had in the past accused Islamabad of failing to check infiltrations, raised a strange hue and cry over the gate, alleging it was erected inside Afghan territory in violation of the Durand Line, the un-demarcated border between the two countries which runs through mountainous terrain.

    A bad omen

    This trouble is a bad omen for Pakistan which is on the verge of one of the bloodiest elections in its history, as bombs going off almost every day in markets, public places and election rallies, killing and wounding people including candidates and political leaders. The violence has threatened the polls scheduled for May 11, meaning they could be postponed anytime.

    It is an open secret that Karzai’s rule is confined only to Kabul, elsewhere in Afghanistan the Taliban rule the roost

    Against this backdrop, the two countries held U.S.-sponsored talks in Brussels, aimed at finding ways and means to ease the tension between them. But the talks remained inconclusive despite the fact that they featured key personalities like Afghan President Hamid Karzai, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and Pakistan’s Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervaiz Kayani.

    The most significant item on the agenda of the talks was General Kayani leading Pakistan’s side, against the top elected leaders from Afghanistan and U.S., this sent the message that Islamabad’s foreign policy was still formulated at military headquarters instead of the foreign office. Though Pakistan’s caretaker prime minister has a limited mandate, as the holder of foreign affairs portfolio he should have formally led the delegation to give a positive message to the world.

    Immense pressure

    NATO is under immense two-pronged pressure. On one hand, it was unable to achieve any significant target against the Taliban, despite running the world’s costliest and longest ever war, and on the other, it is pushed by the pullout deadline of 2014. Their worries about Afghan security forces’ inability to control the Taliban after their pullout are justified. That is why NATO spokesman, in a post-talk statement, reiterated that Islamabad should make effective progress against the Taliban.

    {…}

    ReplyDelete



  11. {…}

    This 12-year war is a series of failures for Washington. After failing to eliminate the Taliban in initial years, Washington changed its strategy several times. They invited the Taliban to participate in the political process. Several countries in the Middle East were encouraged to act as guarantors and middlemen, and the Taliban were even allowed to set up political offices in Qatar. But everything failed to the dismay of Washington and the Karzai administration, whose ruling mandate is very close to ending.
    It is an open secret that Karzai’s rule is confined only to Kabul, elsewhere in Afghanistan the Taliban rule the roost. Recently, the Taliban kidnapped 11 foreigners including eight Turks after their helicopter, which was going to Kabul from Khost, made a forced landing in Logar due to bad weather. The Karzai administration is unable to locate or recover the abductees, while NATO dissociated from them, saying they were civilians and had no connection with the military campaign, though reports suggested all the passengers of the chopper were clad in U.S. army uniforms.

    Against this backdrop, the Karzai administration is accusing Islamabad of not implementing an effective crackdown against the Taliban, to cover up its own failure inside its territories. Kabul completely ignores the sacrifices made by Islamabad to support the anti-Taliban war in Afghanistan. Kabul also ignores the fact that Pakistan suffered heavily in terms of human and material losses across its length and breadth as the U.S. war on terror spilled into its territories in shape of bomb blasts and a host of other kinds of subversion carried out by those elements who, Islamabad says, come from Afghanistan. Besides, Pakistan suffered over $75 billion material losses providing logistic support and bases to NATO forces that carried out thousands of attacks against Taliban forces from its soil. This amount is more than Pakistan’s foreign debts, to which Islamabad pays millions of dollars every years as debt service at the cost of multiplying the miseries of its citizens.

    Bracing for change

    As Pakistan is bracing to welcome a new democratic government, Washington’s biggest worry is if Islamabad’s new democratic rulers make any policy changes that create problems with regards to pulling out from Afghanistan and the smooth functioning of post-pullout administrations in Kabul. Washington savors the ugly memories of pullout from Vietnam, during which it suffered a significant number of casualties.

    Washington’s top priority at the moment is to prevent chaos and casualties in the post-pullout period, at the hands of Taliban. But it is yet to ensure that horror is not going to visit U.S. forces again.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Excellent, not only have we accomplished next to nothing after the first six months of the Afghan invasion , we will be leaving behind an energized Taliban, a Kabul Government that will crash and burn and the pièce de résistance, a destabalized Islamic nuclear power, Pakistan.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hey, we paid those Pakistani over $10 billion USD, money wasted though.

      The fella we gave the money to, arrested on a charge of murder.
      I've read that they also have him up on charges of treason.

      OOrah!

      Delete
    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    3. Well, in summation ...
      nah we ain't summin' it up, but.

      In Pakistan and Egypt the US backed the military and became cozy with the General-Presidents of both countries. A pattern we'd followed before, done it for decades, all around the globe.

      But now, those two fellas are in jail, each in their own countries.
      Power to the People.


      That Musharraf returned to Pakistan to reenter politics, exemplifies just how delusional he was/is.
      Which, I guess, by extension, shows just how delusional we were to ally the US with him after his military engineered the infrastructure of the 11SEP01 raid in NYC & DC.

      Delete
  13. Marc Lynch notes in Foreign Affairs:

    ”A decade ago, anti-Americanism seemed like an urgent problem. Overseas opinion surveys showed dramatic spikes in hostility toward the United States, especially in the Arab world ... It is now clear that even major changes, such as Bush's departure, Obama's support for some of the Arab revolts of 2011, the death of Osama bin Laden, and the U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, have had surprisingly little effect on Arab attitudes towards the United States. Anti-Americanism might have ebbed momentarily, but it is once again flowing freely."

    The Pew Global Attitudes Project says anti-American sentiments were high and on the rise in countries where drone strikes weren't employed. In Jordan, for example, U.S. unfavorability rose from 78 percent in 2007 to 86 percent in 2012 while Egypt saw a rise from 78 percent to 79 percent over the same period.

    Notably, the percentage of respondents reporting an "unfavorable" view of the United States in these countries is as high, or higher, than in drone-targeted Pakistan.

    In Pakistan, a country that has been subjected to a barrage of strikes over the last five years, the United States’ unfavorability held steady at 68 percent from 2007-10 (dropping briefly to 63 percent in 2008), but then began to increase, rising to 73 percent in 2011 and 80 percent in 2012 -- a two-year period in which the number of drone strikes was actually dropping significantly.




    Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Analysis/Outside-View/2013/04/30/Outside-View-Drones-Say-it-with-figures/UPI-25571367294880/#ixzz2RwHx19YS

    ReplyDelete
  14. Watching Afghanistan and Iraq developments unfold, failing to meet our original expectations, is depressing enough.

    But it’s made worse when I think how I felt when the American public grew tired of the Vietnam War.

    Until now, I never made that connection among the three operations.

    Avoiding the humiliation of unilateral withdrawal, the Paris cease-fire agreement of 1973 was hailed as victory for our side. When the North Vietnamese violated the agreement after we withdrew, their treachery was ignored, in part not to tarnish our image of victory.

    While the sacrifice of many who died and served in Vietnam is still recalled with reverence by those who remember, veterans from Afghanistan and Iraq may expect no less in the years ahead.

    Still, I wonder if the price paid for trying to embed democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq will be remembered 40 years hence, even for a lost cause. The strongest supporters of those invasions admit we may have to wait that long for positive results, if any.

    It’s refreshing to witness eminent Vietnam War historians such as Lewis Sorley who recently published a book with the title Westmoreland: the General who lost Vietnam. While some challenge this thesis, it breaks a code of silence that all our military engagements must have a bright side, if one looks hard enough and long enough.

    As one junior officer recently blogged: “I don’t understand how the military can go on pretending that we didn’t lose the war in Iraq, or that we’re not about to lose the war in Afghanistan.”

    Meanwhile, the Army is on the ropes, thanks to over-deployments.

    Retired general Frederick J. Kroesen writes in Army Magazine, that “Today, the Army is unready for any commitment beyond the rotations currently planned for Afghanistan.”




    Read more: http://nation.time.com/2013/04/29/the-ultimate-cost-of-poor-decisions/#ixzz2RwJACvy8

    ReplyDelete
  15. Mr. Dalrymple made a documentary film for the BBC, called ‘Doubting Thomas’, about Saint Thomas in India, the Saint who was Jesus’ disciple, of the Andrew, Peter, James, John, Phillip, Bartholomew, Mathew,Thomas, James, Simon, Jude, Judas crew. Watch it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Just as long as you do not try to tell me that Paul/Saul, that Roman infiltrator, was with Jesus or ever even knew him in any context...

      Delete
    2. Do you see Paul/Saul on my list?

      Delete
    3. I do see that you are an idiot.

      Delete
    4. No, I realize he is not on your list, but idiot anon has been quoting Paul/Saul as if he were some kind of authority on ... something ... morality or life.

      When he was just a Roman stooge. An infiltrator that destroyed the ministry Jesus had established, from both within and without.

      Delete
    5. General Bunk is way way out of his depth, and it shows.

      It's not worth it, let him make a fool out of himself.

      WiO says several here have written him concerning your sanity.

      I believe it.

      Delete
    6. .

      When he was just a Roman stooge. An infiltrator that destroyed the ministry Jesus had established, from both within and without.

      From a collaberation by biblical scolars rat and wio from their book, An Alternate History of the Universe printed by Kabbala Press (2008), Tuscon, AZ, copyright held by Illuminati Resources (2005).

      .

      Delete
    7. I have a copy of that too, Q.

      But the authoritative source ...

      Who Was Jesus?:
      A Conspiracy in Jerusalem


      Kamal S. Salibi

      I. B. Tauris, Sep 15, 1998 - Religion - 200 pages

      Very little is known about the life of Jesus. The gospels were written to propagate an image of Jesus as the prophesied Messiah, and give few details of his life.

      Moreover, most of the fundamental tenets of Christianity are not derived directly from the gospels but from the teachings of St Paul. Between and indeed within these sources there are baffling inconsistencies.

      This book seeks, as far as possible to uncover the historical figure of Jesus, and to explore what it was about his teaching that created a dedicated and able following that propagated a religion in his name.

      It also traces the life and teachings of St Paul, asks what Paul knew of the man, Jesus, and suggests that there may have been a conspiracy between Paul and Peter to disseminate a selective and distorted image of Jesus' life, character and teaching.


      http://books.google.com/books/about/Who_Was_Jesus.html?id=6v2JAAAAMAAJ

      Delete
    8. That Jesus himself preached that his message was not for the Gentile, one must wonder, why would a demi-God or prophet lie.

      Or was it Paul/Saul the citizen of Rome that was telling the lies?

      Delete
    9. I have had some folk tell me that Jesus was God incarnate.

      Which would make us wonder, why he said his message was only for the Jews, when it really wasn't. And he'd have known, beforehand, being omnipotent and all knowledgeable.

      Why would Jesus set Saul/Paul as being a higher source of God's message than the Son of Man, himself?

      Delete
    10. It also traces the life and teachings of St Paul, asks what Paul knew of the man, Jesus, and suggests that there may have been a conspiracy between Paul and Peter to disseminate a selective and distorted image of Jesus' life, character and teaching.

      This is really getting humorous.


      Why would Jesus set Saul/Paul as being a higher source of God's message than the Son of Man, himself?


      And this makes one roll on the floor with laughter, mingled with sadness.

      Try as I might I can't recall the passage where Jesus mentions Saul or Paul or Saul/Paul.



      Delete
    11. SaulSt.Paul sounds as if it might be a village in Mississippi, it just occurred to me. Or maybe in Minnesota.

      How about Saul/Paul Arizona, or, better yet, SaulPaul, Utah?

      Delete
    12. Goddamn, you are an idiot, Gen. Bunk.

      Delete
    13. Matthew 16:13-20

      Luke 9:18

      These passages are though to reflect the uncertainly and confusion of Jesus about himself.

      Using Matthew we see -

      Matthew 16:13-20 (New International Version)


      New International Version (NIV)
      Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah

      13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

      14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

      15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”


      16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

      17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.


      We read -

      13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

      14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

      15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”


      It is thought to be a vague remembrance of the confusion or anxiety Jesus felt about himself and what he was going.

      It is immediately followed by -

      16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

      17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.


      This is the Christian gloss put on by the writer(s) to a vague remembrance deposited in the tradition.

      Mathhew and Luke share a common source, called Q, not our fraud from Detroit, but a scholarly identification of an early document or less likely an oral tradition -

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source

      It is "one of the foundations of modern gospel scholarship" -

      Along with Markan priority, Q was hypothesized by 1900, and it is one of the foundations of modern gospel scholarship.[2] B. H. Streeter formulated a widely accepted view of Q: that it was a written document (not an oral tradition) composed in Greek; that almost all of its contents appear in Matthew, in Luke, or in both; and that Luke more often preserves the original order of the text than Matthew. In the two-source hypothesis, Matthew and Luke both used Mark and Q as sources. Some scholars have postulated that Q is actually a plurality of sources, some written and some oral. Others have attempted to determine the stages in which Q was composed.[3]

      Reading the Gospels and Letters is hard.



      Delete
    14. Exactly anons, Jesus never mentioned Paul/Saul.

      Certainly never designated him as spokesperson for the Son of Man or God himself.

      The only one in all creation to designate Paul a man of Jesus, was Saul.

      Delete
    15. Amended -


      Matthew 16:13-20

      Luke 9:18

      These passages are though to reflect the uncertainly and confusion of Jesus about himself.

      Using Matthew we see -

      Matthew 16:13-20 (New International Version)


      New International Version (NIV)
      Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah

      13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

      14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

      15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

      16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

      17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.


      We read -

      13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

      14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

      15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”


      This is thought to be a vague remembrance of the confusion or anxiety Jesus felt about himself and what he was going.

      It is immediately followed by -

      16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

      17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.


      This is the Christian gloss put on by the writer(s) to a vague remembrance deposited in the tradition.

      Mathhew and Luke share a common source, called Q, not our fraud from Detroit, but a scholarly identification of an early document or less likely an oral tradition -

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source

      It is "one of the foundations of modern gospel scholarship" -

      Along with Markan priority, Q was hypothesized by 1900, and it is one of the foundations of modern gospel scholarship.[2] B. H. Streeter formulated a widely accepted view of Q: that it was a written document (not an oral tradition) composed in Greek; that almost all of its contents appear in Matthew, in Luke, or in both; and that Luke more often preserves the original order of the text than Matthew. In the two-source hypothesis, Matthew and Luke both used Mark and Q as sources. Some scholars have postulated that Q is actually a plurality of sources, some written and some oral. Others have attempted to determine the stages in which Q was composed.[3]

      Reading the Gospels and Letters is hard. It is for men and women to read, to study, to understand and to come to some intelligent conclusions concerning, intelligently accepting or not, or partially or not, as one will.

      It is not for rodents.

      Delete

    16. This is thought to be a vague remembrance of the confusion or anxiety Jesus felt about himself and what he was going.

      ....and what he was DOING dammit

      Delete
    17. .

      But the authoritative source? Kamal S. Salibi?


      Mr. Salabi, a Marionite Christian, has also written a book indicating the the events written in the Old Testament actually occurred at an earlier time in Arabia and that they were only changed after the Jews moved into Palestine. Most scolars as well as archeological evidence tend to disagree.

      As far as I know, nothing was written of Saul/Paul by the noted secular historians of the day. Everything we know of him comes from the scriptures. The life of Paul holds many contradictions. However, the New Testament was constructed of many parts by many writers at different times. Contradictions are to be expected even, real or merely seeming contradictions.

      What Mr. Salibi offers is an attempt to reconcile what are apparent contradictions in his mind. He offers us not authority. he offers us speculation, speculation not shared by the majority of his peers.

      Likewise, and more importantly, you look on the Bible, Old and New Testaments, as a history lesson when in fact it represents a set of beliefs and traditions that sprang from a central base but which became fully developed over time.

      You assert that Paul (along with Peter) highjacked the teachings of Christ based on Jesus' statements (to those inclined to read them that way) that his teachings were meant for the Jews only. Yet there are numerous scriptural quotes where Jesus tells his desciples to go forth and spread his meassage to all nations and every creature.

      Your knowledge of Christianity seems to derive from the "Controversies Section" of Wiki.

      .

      Delete
    18. You assert that Paul (along with Peter) highjacked the teachings of Christ based on Jesus' statements (to those inclined to read them that way) that his teachings were meant for the Jews only. Yet there are numerous scriptural quotes where Jesus tells his desciples to go forth and spread his meassage to all nations and every creature.

      There are. And it is interesting. As with all the Jews of his time, Jesus most likely wasn't in adoration of the Gentiles occupying their country, to say the least. It is interesting and a little confusing too, his attitude, such as we can reconstruct it. There is this -

      Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

      Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

      He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

      The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

      He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

      "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

      Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. (Matthew 15:21-28)


      heh

      He did work with here evidently.

      There is also this -

      Matthew 8:5-13 (New International Version)

      New International Version (NIV)
      The Faith of the Centurion

      5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

      7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

      8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”



      Delete
    19. First time I saw Saul/Paul portrayed as an agent of the Roman Empire was on that History Channel extravaganza, "The Naked Archeologist".

      The quot supported the idea, said it was from a book ...
      ... "The Pass Over Plot" ...

      If my memory serves, correctly.

      Any way, it certainly serves our purposes, here.

      Exposing and exploring the use of religion as a political tool through the pages of history.
      Especially as it relates to the Abrahamic sects and their development.

      Delete
    20. 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

      13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.


      Then there is this narrative - (remembered somehow by someone(s) without cam-corders :)!! )

      John 4 (New International Version)

      John 4

      New International Version (NIV)
      Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman

      4 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3 So he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.

      4 Now he had to go through Samaria. 5 So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about noon.

      7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” 8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

      9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

      10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

      11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”

      13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

      Delete
    21. Jesus himself does move, selectively, amongst the gentile.

      But he explicitly instructs his disciples not to.

      He never swerved, but stayed the course.

      Delete

    22. 15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

      16 He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

      17 “I have no husband,” she replied.

      Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

      19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

      21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

      25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

      26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”
      The Disciples Rejoin Jesus

      27 Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, “What do you want?” or “Why are you talking with her?”

      28 Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29 “Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Messiah?” 30 They came out of the town and made their way toward him.

      31 Meanwhile his disciples urged him, “Rabbi, eat something.”

      32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you know nothing about.”

      33 Then his disciples said to each other, “Could someone have brought him food?”

      34 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35 Don’t you have a saying, ‘It’s still four months until harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36 Even now the one who reaps draws a wage and harvests a crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. 37 Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. 38 I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”
      Many Samaritans Believe

      39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

      42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”


      This from John, who is quite far off the Reservation of the Synoptics.

      Delete
    23. The "Letters" as fraudulent a selection of fiction as the Book of Mormon.

      Delete
    24. The Samarians HAD been historically Jewish, it was in their blood, but were held in low esteem by the powers that be, in Judea, at that time.

      Maybe they weren't quite Jewish enough for the Temple, but they were Jewish enough for Jesus.

      Delete
    25. MATTHEW 10:5-8 NKJ
      5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
      6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
      7 "And as you go, preach, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
      8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

      On earth


      But -


      MATTHEW 28:18-20 NKJ
      18 Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
      19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
      20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

      From 'heaven'

      So confusing!!!!

      heh

      Delete
    26. These two are known as the Lesser Commission and the Great Commission.

      And, who ya gonna believe and take most seriously, a faulty sinful man (why do you call me good, none is good but the One) or THE SON OF GOD FROM HEAVEN, eh?

      Think carefully now!

      Delete
    27. So edited, by the religious bureaucrats Emperor Constantine convened at The First Council of Nicaea.

      The books quote Jesus in Greek, while Jesus never spoke a word, of Greek.

      Translation of an Aramaic oral tale, into Greek, rife for inaccuracy.

      Delete
    28. In Revelations, in the description of New Jerusalem, where is the Gentile Gate?

      Delete
    29. Why did the Empire's Church persecute the Coptic Christians?

      The Gnostic?

      Where was the love?

      Delete
    30. In anon idiots list of disciples, he forgets Jesus's favorite. The one that receive a higher level of knowledge, Mary Magdalen. Mary, who was the first living person the reincarnated Jesus met as she was headed to the tomb.

      The same Mary who the Church of Rome designated to be a whore and a disciple of Jesus who you attempt to have history forget.

      Delete
    31. The Roman Emperor's bureaucrats chose the Roman writer's version of events, then persecute unto death all those that do not toe the Emperor's new religious political line.

      Delete
    32. Peter and Saul go to Rome, and Christianity becomes Roman-centric.

      To the point that almost all Christian holidays are celebrated on historically pagan festival dates.

      Christmas and Easter both pagan holidays usurped by Roman-centric Christianity.

      Delete
    33. .

      First time I saw Saul/Paul portrayed as an agent of the Roman Empire was on that History Channel extravaganza, "The Naked Archeologist".

      :)

      Couldn't help but laugh, not that I think you are suggesting that everything represented on the History Channel can actually be called history but rather that you would mention Simcha Jocosomethingjewish, The Naked Archologist, the Jewish Dan Brown writ small. He, like WiO, believes that all world history began with Abraham. Entertaining, much like Dan, but authoritive, well...


      The quot supported the idea, said it was from a book ...
      ... "The Pass Over Plot" ...



      A book I have disputed here with WiO before.



      Any way, it certainly serves our purposes, here.

      Exposing and exploring the use of religion as a political tool through the pages of history.
      Especially as it relates to the Abrahamic sects and their development.



      Not when what you quote is just plain silly. Well, let me back up and change that to 'highly speculative' at best.


      Jesus himself does move, selectively, amongst the gentile.

      But he explicitly instructs his disciples not to.

      He never swerved, but stayed the course.



      Really?


      Luke 24:46, 47 - Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

      The preaching of repentance and forgiveness of sins in the name of Jesus still went to the Jews first ("beginning at Jerusalem" - see also Romans 1:16), but now it was also to be preached "to all nations."

      Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations... (Matthew 28:19)

      Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)

      .



      Delete
    34. .

      Typical, rat.

      You start out talking about Peter and Paul and when that doesn't work as planned you shift to Mary Magdalene, Christmas trees, and Constantine. We had the discussion a year or so ago on how the Christian Bible was formed based on a consensus as to which were and were not the acceptable texts, and also on which teachings were to be deemed heresy. It occurred at the Council of Trent (which was actually three meetings stretching over a decade) as well as additional councils stretching out over the next 40-50 years. At that time, you proved to be unable to determine what each council said and when each occurred.

      Were the councils political? Of course. They were designed to determine those texts that were considered true and acceptable to most parties to support. The object of the process was to achieve consensus and provide political stability. In the end, Constantine accepted some teachings that were likely at odds with his own actual beliefs but he did so for what he thought was for the good of the empire. And if others were unwilling to accept the consensus reached, he was perfectly willing to assure they didn't cause trouble, again for the same reason, political stability.

      What evolved was a document that could be readily accepted by the majority of the Church. What was rejected were a number of fringe texts that did not have widespread popular acceptance and in some cases were at odds with orthodox teaching.

      .

      Delete
    35. The "Letters" as fraudulent a selection of fiction as the Book of Mormon.

      This is not so. Again you show your ignorance.

      I think the whole New Testament narrative is an unconscious expression of our monomyth of the Hero who attains Higher Consciousness. I realize back then they did not think of what they were doing in these terms. Indeed, they say they were not recreating 'clever myths'. The were not studied nor highly literate men in our more modern meaning of the term nor did they possess the cross cultural studies of religion and myth that we are blessed to have.

      I think the Gospels and the Letters ought to be called something along the lines of the Divinization of the Hero of the Monomyth, or some such name. Jesus having obtained this blessed boon (Matthew 4: 1-17), goes attempting to share it with others, and the story is of his efforts and the receptions he got to it, and how those around him came to understand him.

      Seen in these terms it is bracing for all, as, we are told, we can all come to it, naturally and as unconsciously as life itself, until it happens to us, in this life or another.

      Thus in this 'liberal' view, Jesus is thought to be not unique, but very very special, as he obviously was or he would not have been remembered at all, and surely not in the terms in which he was remembered by many, a promise and call to us all, a guide and adviser as to how to live, what to consider important, what to strive for, what to hope for, and what to turn away from, and what to despair over.

      In these terms I think it is true.

      There are some possible discoveries that might make me change this view a bit, but that is how I have seen Christianity for a long time.

      Basically a good thing, as is Judaism. Christianity seems a little more confusing, all in all.

      Delete
    36. General Bunk is out of his league, Quirk.

      It is pitiful, almost too pitiful to watch.

      Delete
    37. There you go, Q.

      We have had the discussion, before.
      I tend to find it entertaining,
      I do like the Naked Archeologist, he is pretty amusing, James Cameron funds production of some of his programing. To be sure James Cameron has a history that indicates that he understands entertainment.

      Delete
  16. The civil war in Israel rages on.
    The government forces dropping weapons of mass distraction in their attempt to retain power.

    An Israeli aircraft attacked a motorcycle in Gaza on Tuesday ...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. weapons of mass distraction?

      Interesting, several EB'rs have contacted me and told me that that is what you are.

      "weapons of mass distraction"...

      No fact secure when Rat speaks. No truth revised.

      "weapons of mass distraction" how perfect, how delightful.

      Delete
  17. In other news of the Israeli civil war

    ... a resident of the Yitzhar settlement, was stabbed by the insurgent, who grabbed his gun and opened fire at Israeli security forces

    If the Yitzhar resident had not been armed, he'd be alive today.

    The UN or US must do something!
    Perhaps the Arab League should intervene with more than just rhetoric.

    Associated Press

    JERUSALEM – Israel's chief peace negotiator is welcoming the Arab League's decision to sweeten a decade-old initiative offering comprehensive peace with Israel.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well according to the revisionist Rodent.

      Israel is having a civil war.

      So by his standards, he is squatting illegally on mexican lands.

      Delete
    2. Aztec, maybe ....

      I m in a "City of Gold", regardless of who is sovereign.

      All the inhabitants basicly satisfied with the existing social structure.
      No sectarian violence.
      No racial animosity to speak of

      And the US and Mexican cultures mix almost seamlessly.

      The political checks and balances, in full function, as designed.

      We have, it was reported, almost 150,000 Muslims of different sorts living here, amongst US, without any problems at all, for decades, now.

      While civil war rages in Israel, for decades, now.

      They could learn a lesson from US experiences, with integration of ethnic minorities, rather than getting stuck in the Jim Crow cul-de-sac they presently find themselves in.

      Delete
    3. As to US citizens living in the southwest, legally or illegally, well that depends upon whose "Law" is being enforced, doesn't it?

      Delete
    4. ... and I can understand the folks that you would correspond with being easily distracted.

      A stray thought could throw them off their stride, for days.

      Delete
    5. Why were you criticizing others then for living and working where they do, myself for instance?

      When you admit just above you are doing exactly the same.

      You are nothing but a hypocrite, grandstander and fool, and like to draw attention to yourself.

      Delete
    6. Desert Rat is a schoolyard bully who never grew up.

      Delete
    7. But rat, to apply your standards, Mexico and America are both America.

      So why the wall?

      Why have border patrol?

      Delete
    8. There is no wall.

      There is a barbed wire fence, four or five strands, basically a cow fence. There are sections encompassing the sacred lands of the Tohono O'odham Nation along the border, where there's not even that.

      The Border Patrol, it's become another para-military agency in the Federal jobs for veterans program.

      Delete
    9. The Border patrol engage in high speed car chases, where, invariably, there is a werck and people die.

      Down east of Yuma they set rolling road blocks up, ask you if you were born in the US, answer in the affirmative and off you go.


      Delete
    10. Fancy green uniforms, badges, lots of trucks, 4x4s and guns.

      Fellas and gals, sittin' around in the shade of those portable tents.
      Sometimes you'll see 'em, glassing the sand dunes west of Yuma.

      But the don't drive off the approved trails.
      Seems the Federals don't want to harm the native foliage.

      Priorities in DC being what they are.

      Delete
    11. cant wait for the mexican violence to migrate up to your cafes and pizza shops.

      dont think it's going to happen?

      it will and you will deserve it....

      Delete
    12. I travel across Mexico on the hard roads and have not seen a headless body, yet.

      Fear mongering will get you no where.
      Oh, wait, you're already there.

      Delete
    13. Well you are the professional hit man not I.

      But your lack of seeing headless corpses in Mexico doesn't mean that they didnt occur.

      Mexico's Drug War: 50,000 Dead in 6 Years
      MAY 17, 2012 | 216
      Since Mexico's President Felipe Calderón began an all-out assault on drug cartels in 2006, more than 50,000 people have lost their lives across the country in a nearly-continuous string of shootouts, bombings, and ever-bloodier murders. Just last weekend, 49 decapitated bodies were reportedly discovered on a highway in northern Mexico.

      yep coming to a town near you Rat...

      Deal with it.

      Delete
    14. I travel across Mexico on the hard roads and have not seen a headless body, yet.

      That's cause they hang them by the feet on the four lane overpasses, where people can see and get the message, so I read.

      Delete
    15. Even I've seen the pictures. Looked like headless Mexicans to me.

      Delete
    16. You believed that video of a plane landing on a pick up truck.

      Sure, there is some violence in Mexico, if you are in the drug cartel business, or get off the hard roads and venture into a cartel restaurant. But hell, that can happen in LA or NYCity.

      But if you want to live in fear, go ahead.

      I'll pass on that, while you piss your pants

      Delete
    17. Let's see ...

      50,000 in six years.
      8,300 a year.

      Let's see ... 365 days

      That'd be 25, 26 dead a day.

      On average in 2011, 89 people were killed on the roadways of the U.S. each day.

      Now the US is three times the size of Mexico, population wise.

      Golly, fellas...

      Driving in the US has about the same death per thousand rate of population as the Mexican drug wars.
      A little higher, but that'd be quibbling. Little wonder the Cartel Wars is not as big an issue as many US fear mongers think it should be, in Mexico.

      I still drive, in the US and Mexico.
      Live free of fear, or die afraid.
      I'm still not afraid of traveling in Mexico.





      Delete
    18. Not afraid to drive in the US, either, though that is more dangerous than visiting Mexico.

      Delete
  18. Worthy of a thread of its own

    ... The extraordinarily high cost of American health care has been blamed by policy experts on insurance companies, pharma, malpractice lawyers, hospitals, physicians, the government and the lifestyle/behavior of many Americans. Indeed, a recent public opinion survey shows that the public is willing to blame all of the above for the rising cost of health care in the U.S. ...

    But there’s an important group missing from all of these lists: American consumers. And therein lies a tale.


    http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisconover/2013/04/30/needed-a-health-system-for-adults/

    ReplyDelete
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  20. Obama going to Costa Rica. Good opportunity to sell some US LNG.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Deuce, we're a "Net Importer" of Natural Gas.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And, nat gas production is, now, falling.

      Delete
    2. The shale gas assault on Canada’s natural gas business has been like a blast wave from the U.S. Uneconomic gas-producing regions in the Western Canadian Sedimentary Basin (WCSB) have been levelled as a consequence of the competition.

      Canada’s gas production is down from a recent peak rate of 17.0 billion cubic feet (Bcf) per day in 2006, to 13.5 today. However, the shrinkage has not been geographically uniform. Weak areas have gone into terminal decline, while strong regions have been left standing, like lone trees on a barren landscape. Ironically, Canadian production that’s most distal to U.S. markets, at the greatest competitive disadvantage from transportation charges, has been the least-affected by the changes sweeping North American gas markets. Far-flung, but young, B.C. gas production, rich in profit-enhancing liquids, is still on a growth trend. Deep Basin gas in Alberta’s west central region is in good shape too.

      Delete
    3. Also, more and more of that W. Canada nat gas, and nat gas liquids, is going into tar sands oil production.

      Delete
    4. Jan nat gas production was down YOY and MOM.

      EIA Data

      Feb production will be out, today.

      Delete
    5. The "world price" of nat gas is a little over three times the U.S. price. Once we let them start exporting nat gas we will be paying the world price. We would be idiots to let that happen.

      Delete
  22. We shouldn’t be from the East Coast.

    ReplyDelete
  23. WASHINGTON — Even as the White House said it still lacked proof that Syria unleashed chemical weapons against its people, President Barack Obama on Monday raised the issue with Russian President Vladimir Putin in an effort to reach out one of Syria’s key allies.

    In a telephone call between the two leaders on a range of topics, Obama brought up the Syrian conflict, “underscoring concern over Syrian chemical weapons,” administration officials said in a statement.

    The administration has long been frustrated with Russian resistance to U.S. efforts to tighten sanctions against Syria, but it said that Obama and Putin had agreed to stay in “close consultation,” and that Secretary of State John Kerry and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov would continue the discussions.

    A U.S. official declined to reveal details of Obama’s conversation with Putin but added that it was "only natural" for the pair to discuss the alleged use of chemical weapons in Syria – even as the hunt for hard evidence continues – as Russia has for some time expressed concerns about the issue and the security of Syria’s substantial chemical weapons stockpiles.

    "It would only make sense for the presidents to discuss what those concerns are and instruct their teams to continue consulting on the issue," said the official, who asked not to be further identified because of the sensitivity of the matter.

    Meanwhile, at a news conference Monday in Moscow, Lavrov said the use of weapons of mass destruction was “too serious and no one should play it.” He said, “There are states and external players who think that all means are good if they lead to displacement of the Syrian regime.”


    Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2013/04/29/4209024/obama-putin-discuss-syria-and.html#storylink=cpy

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah, proliferation of pressure cooker pipe bombs has to be curtailed.

      The Department of Justice filed its complaint against 19-year-old Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev on Monday, charging the U.S. citizen in his hospital bed on two charges: "use of a weapon of mass destruction"

      If a pipe bomb is a Weapon of Mass Destruction, what then is a Maverick missile?

      A 500lb JDAM?

      What a tangled web they weave, as they practice to deceive.

      Delete
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  25. Ron Paul: Police manhunt for Boston Marathon bombing suspect scarier than attack

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/29/ron-paul-police-manhunt-boston-marathon-bombing-su/

    Libertarians so often make fools of themselves. One gets what he means but what is government supposed to do in a situation where people have been blown up by two bombs, and, in this case they were planning many more?

    Both Ron and Rand are grandstanders and idiots.

    Rand is OK with using drones on liquor stores robbers running off with fifty dollars! All the while saying we must not ever use drones on American citizens inside the country.

    And his father wants to turn this bombing incident over to whom? The grand jury?

    Actual people seemed reassured by their presence. No wonder. There were mass killers running around the neighborhood with bombs, armed to the teeth.

    No wonder they broke out in applause and cheered and gifted the police when the event was over and #2 captured. An unprecedented event. At least I can't recall another time I have seen mass cheering for the police.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Libertarians have always had a public relations problem. The Big-L Libertarian Party looks as goofy as a Star Trek convention to average Americans. (I say this, by the way, as someone with libertarian instincts myself.) But not once since the word libertarian was coined has anyone so twisted its meaning or warped it beyond recognition.

      Report on -

      Ron Paul's Dictator Fan Club

      http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/ron-pauls-dictator-fan-club?utm_source=World+Affairs+Newsletter&utm_campaign=d3bc43101b-Blog_Brinkley_Totten_Bachrach_4_30_2013&utm_medium=email


      from World Affairs

      Delete
  26. The shale gas assault on Canada’s natural gas business...


    ?????


    This doesn't make any sense.

    Are we not to compete, and use our own resources?

    ReplyDelete
  27. The Tsarnaev family, including the suspected terrorists and their parents, benefited from more than $100,000 in taxpayer-funded assistance — a bonanza ranging from cash and food stamps to Section 8 housing from 2002 to 2012, the Herald has learned.

    “The breadth of the benefits the family was receiving was stunning,” said a person with knowledge of documents handed over to a legislative committee today.


    from the article on Drudge via The Boston Herald

    http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2013/04/tsarnaev_family_received_100g_in_benefits

    Are we idiots or what? Sometimes I think Rufus is right when he sometimes says we are the dumbest nation on the planet.

    Who was it here, a lady, that used to say what these people need is only a little more acculturation, male bonding with Americans, aid, friendship, understanding and concern?

    She left in a big self righteous huffpuff over something or other.

    ReplyDelete
  28. "Where the red lines cross, beware"

    old Native American saying

    (Reuters) - Iran said on Tuesday it regarded the alleged use of chemical weapons in Syria's civil war as a "red line", echoing major adversary the United States but saying Syrian rebels were the main culprit and not the Damascus government.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/30/us-syria-crisis-iran-idUSBRE93T0I320130430?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oh humanity......unruly children on the schoolyard.....ungovernable......fallen......doomed......deservedly so......

      Delete
  29. $100,000 in assistance to four adults and at least one 3year old child, over 10 years.

    ... taxpayer-funded assistance — a bonanza ranging from cash and food stamps to Section 8 housing ...


    $10,000 a year, on average.
    $2,500 per individual per year.

    $200 a month in government subsidies per adult.

    One must wonder ...

    Why?

    oh, yeah, it is another part of the Federal Socialist program. Republican or Democrat in the White House, mattered not, the Tsarnaev family got their subsidies and direct payments.

    ReplyDelete
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  31. But the authoritative source? Kamal S. Salibi?


    Mr. Salabi, a Marionite Christian, has also written a book indicating the the events written in the Old Testament actually occurred at an earlier time in Arabia and that they were only changed after the Jews moved into Palestine. Most scolars as well as archeological evidence tend to disagree.


    Why is it Libertarians seem to so often end up reading and citing off the wall books.


    Yes General I did get briefly snookered by that ad. I was quite tired, and when I realized my error, quickly admitted it, a practice you might try sometime.

    Here are some pictures and articles about corpses hanging around and dumped in Mexico -

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2139876/Mexico-drug-war-9-bodies-hanged-bridge-14-decapitated-heads-found.html

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mexico drug war: 9 bodies hanged from bridge and 14 decapitated ...
      www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Mexico-drug-war-9-bodies-hanged-bridge-14-dec...
      Local media published photos of the nine bloodied bodies, some with duct tape wrapped around their faces, hanging from the overpass along with a message ...
      Three bodies found hanging in Saltillo, Coahuila | Justice in Mexico
      justiceinmexico.org/.../three-bodies-found-hanging-in-saltillo-coahuila/
      Mar 14, 2013 – Photo: El Diario de Coahuila ... This is not the first case of bodies found hanged in public in Mexico as rival organized crime groups and drug ...
      At least 23 people killed in Mexican border city as victims hanged ...
      www.foxnews.com/.../at-least-23-people-killed-in-mexican-border-city-a...
      May 5, 2012 – MEXICO CITY – The bodies of 23 people were found hanging from a ... of the victims, including four women, hanging from an overpass leading to a main ... Local media published photos of the nine bloodied bodies, some with ...
      Bodies hanging from bridge in Mexico are warning to ... - CNN.com
      www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/09/.../mexico.../index.ht...
      by Mariano Castillo - in 69 Google+ circles
      Sep 15, 2011 – Mexico's notoriously ruthless drug gangs regularly hang victims from bridges and highway overpasses. And bloggers who specialize in sharing ...
      Nine Bodies Found Hanging From Overpass In Mexico - WIBW
      www.wibw.com/.../9_Bodies_Found_Hanging_From_Overpass_In_Mex...
      May 6, 2012 – Residents of the Mexican border city of Nuevo Laredo found nine bodies hanging from an overpass Friday morning, along with a message ...
      Eye On The World: Mexico: 37 bodies discovered in Nuevo Laredo ...
      the-eyeontheworld.blogspot.com/.../mexico-37-bodies-discovered-in-nu...
      May 5, 2012 – Mexico: 37 bodies discovered in Nuevo Laredo, of which 9 (5 men and 4 women) with signs of torture were hanging from highway overpass ...
      Five sheet-wrapped bodies found in Mexico; gang murder ...
      news.yahoo.com/five-sheet-wrapped-bodies-found-mexico-gang-murder...
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      Nine Bodies Found Hanging From Overpass In Mexico - Topix
      www.topix.com/forum/world/mexico/TQ57UUFJVFRK48TGP
      May 6, 2012 – Nine Bodies Found Hanging From Overpass In Mexico ... Residents of the Mexican border city of Nuevo Laredo found nine bodies hanging from an overpass .... Personalize your forum posts with your photo and hometown.
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      Sep 15, 2011 – On Tuesday morning in Mexico city of Nuevo Laredo, the bodies of two residents were found strung by their arms and legs from a pedestrian overpass. Next to the bodies: a ... Wired Space Photo of the Day: Goodbye Herschel ...
      Bodies hanging from bridge in Mexico are warning ... - Free Republic
      www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2778443/posts
      Sep 14, 2011 – There are web sites that post pictures and stories of the violence in Mexico. Bodies hanging from highway over passes is a daily occurence.

      There are About 6,240,000 results (0.22 seconds) for the unbeliever to pursue.

      (((((Bodies hanging from bridge in Mexico are warning ... - Free Republic
      www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2778443/posts
      Sep 14, 2011 – There are web sites that post pictures and stories of the violence in Mexico. Bodies hanging from highway over passes is a daily occurence.)))))

      Haven't seem any with 'my own eyes', never been to Mexico, don't want to go, never will. I think I wouldn't much like the place.

      Delete
  32. Since you moved on, I'll move on, with ya ...

    Let's see ...

    50,000 in six years.
    8,300 a year.

    Let's see ... 365 days

    That'd be 25, 26 dead a day.

    On average in 2011, 89 people were killed on the roadways of the U.S. each day.

    Now the US is three times the size of Mexico, population wise.

    Golly, fellas...

    Driving in the US has about the same death per thousand rate of population as the Mexican drug wars.
    A little higher, but that'd be quibbling. Little wonder the Cartel Wars is not as big an issue as many US fear mongers think it should be, in Mexico.

    I still drive, in the US and Mexico.
    Live free of fear, or die afraid.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies

    1. Driving in the US has about the same death per thousand rate of population as the Mexican drug wars.


      Well, then, I choose to take my chances here, and I drive a lot, and avoid the added unpleasantness of seeing corpses hanging from overpasses and bridges, which I have never yet experienced here.

      Moving on -


      President Obama is preparing to send lethal weaponry to the Syrian opposition and has taken steps to assert more aggressive U.S. leadership among allies and partners seeking the ouster of President Bashar al-Assad, according to senior administration officials.

      The officials emphasized that political negotiation remains the preferred option. To that end, the administration has launched a new effort to convince Russian President Vladimir Putin that the probable use of chemical weapons by the Syrian government — and the more direct outside intervention that could provoke — should lead him to reconsider his support of Assad…

      [T]he senior official, one of several who discussed internal administration deliberations on the condition of anonymity, said Obama has “not closed the door to other military actions,” in response to calls from the opposition, and some members of Congress, for protection against Syrian ballistic missiles and air attacks…

      Disputes among [allied] countries, particularly between Qatar and Saudi Arabia, over which rebel military faction to back has led to rising U.S. concern that sophisticated weapons, including surface-to-air missiles, are being sent directly to Islamist extremist groups. The administration is not prepared to send missiles itself, but believes it can gain more control over others’ supplies if it puts what an official called “more skin in the game” by sending its own lethal equipment.



      Here we go: Obama preparing to send “lethal arms” to Syrian rebels, say senior admin officials

      http://hotair.com/archives/2013/04/30/here-we-go-obama-preparing-to-send-lethal-arms-to-syrian-rebels-say-senior-admin-officials/

      An arms race of a sort to arm the Syrians 'rebels' seems to be developing.

      Obama, being an MB and sunni aficionado may not be able to control the urge to join in.

      Delete
  33. Global Warming Can Make A Woman A Whore

    April 30, 2013
    The most bizarre prediction of global warming doom ever
    Thomas Lifson

    When apocalyptic religious cults like Warmism fail the reality test, their devotees get desperate and unintentionally start producing self-parodies. The mass slow-mo mental implosion can be hilarious. We have just such an instance involving a group of House Democrats. The victim mentality is leaping to the rescue for the cause of global warming. Pete Kasperowicz of The Hill reports:

    Several House Democrats are calling on Congress to recognize that climate change is hurting women more than men, and could even drive poor women to "transactional sex" for survival.

    The resolution, from Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) and a dozen other Democrats, says the results of climate change include drought and reduced agricultural output. It says these changes can be particularly harmful for women.

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    Global warming can make you a whore!

    My colleague Rick Moran quipped, "What about transactional sex because of the lousy economy?"

    This is so stupid it boggles the mind. Barbara Lee, in case you don't know, represents the good people of Berkeley in Congress.

    Hat tip: iOwnTheWorld.com



    Heh!

    It's all part of what Rufus, who doesn't buy into global warming at all, calls THE REPUBLICAN WAR ON WOMEN.

    Some dems have finally caught on to the conspiracy.

    Eh, Ruf?


    ReplyDelete
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  37. On this day in history, the U.S. completed the Louisiana Purchase, doubling the size of the nation.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hell of a real estate deal. Bought from the French when Napoleon's bank account was low. The Native Americans had hardly heard of the French, and didn't realize they had been living on French land.

      It had ever earlier belonged to France but they gave to Spain, then -

      France controlled this vast area from 1699 until 1762, the year it gave the territory to its ally Spain. Under Napoleon Bonaparte, France took back the territory in 1800 in the hope of building an empire in North America. A slave revolt in Haiti and an impending war with Britain, however, led France to abandon these plans and sell the entire territory to the United States, who had originally intended only to seek the purchase of New Orleans and its adjacent lands.

      Worked out to 42 cents per acre, a steal in anyone's understanding.

      France had no capital gains tax at the time, so that helped seal the deal from their point of view.

      So it ended up as ours, part of the good ol' US of A, as The Lord obviously intended it be from the beginnings of the foundation of the world.

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