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Sunday, September 21, 2008

Pakistan Wonders "How Could This Happen?"



Pakistani PM Appeals to Public for Help Identifying Bombers

By Barry Newhouse
Islamabad VOA
21 September 2008

Pakistan's prime minister is appealing to fellow Pakistanis to identify what he called the "black sheep" responsible for Saturday's devastating suicide bomb attack. VOA's Barry Newhouse reports from Islamabad, where officials say at least 60 people have died and 250 others were wounded in the blast at the Islamabad Marriott.

Rescuer workers Sunday morning continued to remove bodies from smoldering rubble at the luxury hotel in downtown Islamabad.

Officials said the attack had strained the capabilities of local rescue workers and the Pakistani military has been called in to help.

Militant groups in Pakistan frequently claim credit for bomb attacks soon after they occur, but no group has, as yet, come forward.

Pakistani Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani made a public appeal Sunday for help in identifying those responsible.

Mr. Gilani says he appeals to the people to identify these black sheep and to isolate them because they want to destabilize the democracy and destroy the country's economy.

Officials announced a $130,000 reward for information about those behind the attack.



166 comments:

  1. How many maddrassas are there in Pakistan?

    Taliban, never heard of them.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Remember, we found a way to the sea, from the Chosin.

    Because those Chinese, they'd NEVER enter a war against US.

    Wouldn't, couldn't do it.

    Seems evident that the new Pakiland President does not have much control over the ISI and its' proxies.

    ReplyDelete
  3. The question isn't "How could this happen?" It's "Who did this?"

    We know how it could happen. What we want to know is who is going to pay and are you with us or against us?

    ReplyDelete
  4. There must be some smug swaggerers in Muzzieland. Two big scores in one week, US Embassy in Yemen and big American hotel in Islamabad.

    ReplyDelete
  5. ...and some heads hacked off in West Africa.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Did they ever figure out who Mr. Sun Glasses was in the Bhutto killing, and who was behind it? Dropped out of the news fast.

    Everything seems to be going fast these days.

    The Quickening.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Wonder why Mr Churchill never wanted to know the German pilots names, during the Blitz.

    Could it have been that it did not matter?

    Maybe he "knew" who they were, without knowing their names.

    Such progress we've made, in the police chase business.

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  8. Just watched Hank Paulson on Fox. They showed a clip from a couple of months ago. The last few months have been tough on this honorable man.

    My heart went out to him.

    Blessed are though who have to clean up everyone else's shit.

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  9. 2164th: Blessed are though who have to clean up everyone else's shit.

    Bush gets into shit in Iraq, sends Petreus to clean it up with a surge of troops. He's a good man. Bush gets into shit with the credit markets, sends Paulson to clean it up with a surge of dollars. He's a good man too. But a trillion dollars in Iraq, a trillion dollars on Wall Street, pretty soon you're talking about real money.

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  10. If it walks, crawls, flies, rolls, breathes or simply inanimate or remains stationary, look for someone to propose a tax on it.

    I heard someone saying that Obama's proposal to tax the upper 5% will not be enough. Of course not, but when the rich have been sufficiently soaked, there will be little reason or excuse not to go after the middle class.

    It looks like this is a good time to divest of anything which can be taxed.

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  11. Going back to the Marriott bombing.

    There must be a strong, immediate reaction and I don't mean talk...

    We need to send a message.

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  12. The Marriot bombing was the strong, immediate reaction.

    The Pakistanis have to live with it.

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  13. Pakistan's High Commissioner to the UK is calling for money and weapons (but no military help) so that they can "go in and get the perps." They need to be given the "space" to provide the clean water, hospitals, schools, etc but no collateral damage please...

    Wonder what ISI is saying.

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  14. I agree, Trish. But it was also a message to the US. One which we need to respond to in the strongest possible way.

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  15. No.

    This was Pakistan's wake-up call.

    Not ours.

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  16. For instance, anything that sneaks, walks, crawls, flies, or rolls across the border into Afghanistan should be vaporized. Let's demonstrate that new air borne laser...

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  17. All Empires eventually leave Afghanistan - usually, more or less, unnoticed.

    We will not be the exception.

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  18. Whit, we're already doing that.

    The Marriott was a foregone conclusion.

    ReplyDelete
  19. It will be very interesting to watch the Paki reaction in the coming days. I said yesterday that the people would have to stand up to the fundies or bow down to them.

    Which will it be?

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  20. Promise me that when things go to hell in a day here, you will not embrace a similar spirit of abandonment.

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  21. Any changes meant for Afghanistan and Pakistan are beyond the political levels of sustainability. The US public is not going to pay the price, invest the time and money to pursue unrealizable and unprovable goals. That is reality. The US should be concerned about places where we can make changes that are to our benefit. Venezuela, Nicaragua, Mexico and Latin America in general.

    Read this article and then explain tome how we are going to make a spit of change:

    Ethnicity and Provincialism in Pakistan
    By Adnan Syed

    "Ethnocentrism is wrong, but what is worse is denial of ethnic identity/differences. As different ethnic groups, we have more than enough commonality to be a strong nation. Differences between sub-cultures/ethnicities exists in most countries, but what holds a nation together is basic cultural, linguistic, religious, historical, and/or geographic commonalities. We should accept and respect our ethnic differences, after all Pakistan is a federation of such, and beunited as a nation based on our commonality in being linguistically/culturally Indo-Iranian, racially mostly Caucasian, geographically based on Indus Valley, having a common history, and following the religion/culture of Islam. All of
    these common factors among the different Pakistani ethnic groups makes them close to each other, yet very different from the Indians. These common factors defines the Pakistani nationhood, not just religion as many Pakistanis are made to believe in.

    The present-day provincial setup of Pakistan has its origins from the British era. The British rulers drew boundaries of provinces not based on ethnic
    demographics, but the politics of that era for their interersts.

    As has always been the case, the ethnic demographics have also evolved since 1947. In reality, the current provincial setup of Pakistan is artificial. The large southern region of "Punjab" is Seraiki, its southwest is Baluchi, and northwest Hindkowi. The huge northeast part of "NWFP" is Hindkowi, and the north is Khowari/Shina/etc.
    Almost half of "Baluchistan" is Pakhtun (northern part), with pockets of Brauhis the central region and Jats/etc. in the southeast. Almost half of "Sindh" is
    Urdu-speaking (urban areas). Not to mention the countless Afghan, Central Asian, Iranian, Bengalee, etc. refugees, and inter-ethnic migrations in various parts of the country. Though outdated and slightly flawed, here is an article of interest
    on this subject by Ahmed Abdalla published in 1973:..." (worthy of a read)

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  22. Clusterfuck comes to mind. A slight edit and we have a Custerfuck.

    ReplyDelete
  23. The Marriott was a foregone conclusion.
    ==

    A foregone conclusion by whom? And as concerns to what?

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  24. How about this? I don't give a shit as to what happens to Pakistan, Afghanistan or anyone there. How about a simple policy of disproportionate retaliation and retribution as should have been done on 912?

    We still have a strategic air capability that we have been investing in since 1950.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I think our diplomatic corps is capable of explaining the concept to some of our once and future friends.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Sometimes the best policy is to let the jackasses speak. Freely.

    ReplyDelete
  27. We need a new rule. If the average American cannot order dinner from a particular country's restaurant menu, we should not be there.

    ReplyDelete
  28. If I were a Russian Chess-Master, or a Saudi Prince wanting to insure a high price for my oil I would, probably, love to see the U.S. make a premature exit from Iraq, and go running off to quell the "Uprising on the Khyber Pass."

    I might even be tempted to help things along a bit.

    But, I'm not either one of them things. I'm just poor old Rufus, who, as Trish likes to remind us, has hardly ever been right about anything. No use breaking a perfect record, now.

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  29. If I were a Russian Chess-Master, or a Saudi Prince wanting to insure a high price for my oil I would, probably, love to see the U.S. make a premature exit from Iraq, and go running off to quell the "Uprising on the Khyber Pass."

    Which is exactly what the One said he wants to do, and why the Russians and Princes and arabs in general support the guy.

    Ruf hits a 100% on that one. On much else too, I might add.

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  30. Paulson voices confidences in US fundamentals...

    The John McCain position.

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  31. 2164th: How about this? I don't give a shit as to what happens to Pakistan, Afghanistan or anyone there. How about a simple policy of disproportionate retaliation and retribution as should have been done on 912?

    Deuce, Whit, and the Pat Buchanan lesbian, all on the same page. Unprecedented. The Bush Doctrine should have been: Anything that looks like a terrorist training camp automatically gets turned into a Nuclear Damage Avoidance Zone (NDAZ).

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  32. The Marriott was a foregone conclusion.

    I agree with that. The Pakis have gone on the offensive recently and Zardari has been sending the correct message but for too long, they seem to have had their heads in the sand. Excuse the cliches, but they been feeding the crocodile and now the chickens have come home to roost. I haven't abandoned them. I merely said that it's up to them. I know that half of Pakistan wears blue jeans and enjoys titillating western style television and it is those people who must reject and defeat the fundamentalists instead of cursing the US.

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  33. We really haven't carpet bombed anything in a long long time...

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  34. Keep enough troops were the oil is.

    Carpet bomb anything else that draws our attention.

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  35. the islamic world must choose between suicide bombers rights or civil discourse...

    for decades the islamic world has chosen the path of suicide bombers...

    now they are having the same issues at home...

    TO BAD...

    Karma is a kick in the shorts...

    get used to it...

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  36. WiO: Karma is a kick in the shorts...

    So which is it, do I believe WiO that the Pakistanis took a hit with the loss of this hotel, or Metuselah who says only the West took a hit? My theory is that Western businessmen are all about safety this year...hence the flight to US treasuries. I don't think they will be attending too many business seminars in Islamibad.

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  37. 2164: We need a new rule. If the average American cannot order dinner from a particular country's restaurant menu, we should not be there.

    That's why I'll probably never travel to England. There is nothing on their menu I could eat without blowing chunks.

    ReplyDelete
  38. The Marriott was a foregone conclusion.
    ==

    Again, let me ask.

    A foregone conclusion by whom? A foregone conclusion as concerns to what? And why it is a foregone conclusion?

    ReplyDelete
  39. Trish, why is it so difficult for you to properly answer these questions?

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  40. The Islamic world is racing forward to look like Gaza or Somolia or Sudan.

    If the Islamic world doesnt have a civil war soon and completely the outcome will be assured...

    It's a clear fight...

    Dont fight, become assimilated ...

    Fight and have a chance to win...

    Jihadism doesnt know defeat...

    Maybe from within the Islamic world this concept will have to be taught...

    The BEST thing to happen is what the terrorists want... separation from the west...

    Natural selection...

    Return to 640 CE....

    No medicine, No electricity, Nothing Modern....

    Kinda reminds me of that movie with charleston heston omega man..

    Pakistan's ruling elite will occupy ever smaller areas of lands with superior weapons and knowledge against a vast sea of human zombies that thirst for blood...

    We need a VIRUS to infect islam to morph it into a non-lethal form...

    ReplyDelete
  41. Oil Megaprojects Here lies all of the "Dreamed Up" projects over the coming years. (just click on the year you want.)

    Note: We, presently, extract about 86 Million Barrels/Day. At a 5% Decline Rate we're losing about 4.3 Million Barrels/Day, annually. If you take these numbers at their utmost, optimistic face value (they actually get done, come in on time, the oil's actually there, etc.) you're looking at adding 3 Million Barrels/Day, annually over the next 7 years.

    That means in 2015 we're producing 77 Million Barrels/Day - 9.1 Million Barrels/Day Below Today's Level.

    In the meantime, we're adding 75 Million New Cars to the International Roadways Every Year.

    How ya like it so far?

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  42. How ya like it so far?
    ==

    Liquid fueled engines are extremely inefficient. Liquid fuels should largely be used to generate electrons which in turn should be used to drive passenger electric vehicles and trains. Switching to electric vehicles, if I remember correctly, generates an efficiency savings of over 70%.

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  43. Also, keep in mind that the amount of oil that's, actually, available to oil-importing nations like our own will drop by much more than 7 Million bpd, due to the fact that many of the biggest exporters subsidize petroleum products vigorously to their own populace (ex. of course, Venezuela where gasoline is $0.17/gal, or some such.)

    The Bottom line is that the market that we Import from will, probably, be, at least, 10 Million Barrel/Day Smaller than it is at present.

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  44. subsidize petroleum products vigorously to their own populace

    less and less vigorously. In ten years probably not at all.

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  45. I'm with you for the Long Run, Mat. The Chevy Volt is, I imagine, the precursor of things to come. It Will run on E85, you know.

    However, the problem, here, is the amount of time needed for transition. It's going to take a while to build battery packs for a couple of Billion Cars. And, electrified rail lines take a few years, too.

    Most of these solutions aren't going to help much in 2015, or even 2025; much less 2011.

    ReplyDelete
  46. BTW, I'm sure you got the idea looking at those projects that many are just sheer fantasy. Does Anyone think Iraq is going to bring two hundred and fifty thousand bpd online Next Year??

    I mean, they're pretty sure there's some oil out there; but, really, they have NO idea how much, or how difficult it will be to extract. They haven't even signed contracts for Exploration, Yet!

    And, they've got Nigeria signed up for four or five Million bpd over the next several years. Hell, they can't even keep the wells they've Got, Producing.

    And, the Tar Sands? They might not Ever get another project approved up there. They've turned Alberta into the most toxic environment on Earth.

    If I had to put up an over/under with my Own Money, I'd probably put it somewhere around two, to two and a half instead of three.

    Anyways, just because oil doesn't go to three fifty, tomorrow, doesn't mean the laws of geology have been suspended. Act (think,) accordingly.

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  47. Ok. I checked the math, and as it turns out my memory was wrong. Going by Tesla Motors' Project White Star Sport Sedan specs, the Tesla EV is 550% more efficient than a comparable internal combustion engine vehicle.


    BMW 545i Sedan
    0-60mph 5.7 sec @20mpg

    Tesla White Star Sedan
    0-60mph 5.7 sec @110mpg

    110/20 = 5.5 or 550%

    .

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  48. Rufus,

    Going by the math above, every EV Tesla puts on the road, is a savings equivalent of 4.5 internal combustion engine vehicles. That's a pretty substantial savings. And I think it can add up very quickly to make a difference even in the very short term.

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  49. From your mouth to God's ears, Mat.

    uhh, did he, by any chance, mention Price?

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  50. Of course, Bird and Fortune knew the skinny.
    ==

    And they knew it already in August 2007. More than a year ago.


    Mat points out the old English boys had their skit right on 'more than a year ago'. We ought to turn the economy over to Bird and Fortune.
    --
    Liquid fuels should largely be used to generate electrons which in turn should be used to drive passenger electric vehicles and trains.

    Nonsense. Nuclear energy should be doing this.

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  51. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  52. Newt raises a number of issues with the bailout plan. I concur with him on all of them, however, he leaves unanswered the question of what to do about the immediate crsis of finanical gridlock (money-market, commercial peper, interbank funding all came to a halt last week as banks hoarded cash and were unwilling to fund normal short term financing needs of ANY company, not just those with MBS securities on the books). I certainly don't have the answer but do have grave reservations about where all this is heading - as Newt makes clear, more government participation in the marketplace cannot be positive in the long run.

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  53. The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'

    Ronald Reagan

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  54. A half-trillion for a war? Seven hundred billion to bail out Wall Street? Chump change! Bush's prescription drug benefit is $1.2 trillion dollars.

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  55. Who Knows Obama

    As a commenter says, funny we seem to know Palin better than Obama.

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  56. Well, the winds of change are blowin'

    And we recognize that need

    But tractors, trucks, cars, and planes can't run on tomorrow's dreams

    So while we're workin' on the future, we can't ignore today

    'Cause who knows how much time the alternative might take?

    The Drilling Bill That Bans Drilling

    Save the planet~

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  57. Here's the Tesla pdf, Rufus. We'll know the price when it hits the market.

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  58. I got my McCain/Palin bumper sticker. Now I need a "Save The Planet" sticker to put right beside it.

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  59. We ought to turn the economy over to Bird and Fortune.
    ==

    Bird and Fortune are not economists, and neither am I. But both they and I knew enough to discern what was going on and what was coming. The point I'm driving at is, none of what has transpired was accidental and unforeseen, and anyone who thinks otherwise is either very naive or stupid.

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  60. Back to the Marriott bombing: Who did it?

    The Taliban? Al-Qaeda? Both of them?

    These guys have other ideas
    From the NY Times:
    Shahid Kamal, 42, a freelance editor, said: “I came here to see the devastation. We are sick” of the wave of terrorism that has engulfed the country, especially in the north.

    “This is a reaction of what is going on in FATA,” he said, as his little niece stood by his side. “We have been implementing a reckless and careless policy for a number of years. What’s happening in FATA is that Pakistanis are killing Pakistanis.”

    Others offered different explanations and apportioned blame elsewhere.

    Muhammad Qadeer, 36, a security guard in an office nearby, said that he thought Indians could be involved, as the blast could have been a reaction to the July bombing outside of the Indian Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, and recent blasts in the Indian capital.

    “It can be the work of America also,” said Mr. Qadeer, a bearded man wearing a blue uniform. “Maybe our new president didn’t agree to its dictations,” he said when asked why, referring to President Zardari, who was elected two weeks ago.

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  61. Back to the Marriott bombing: Who did it?
    ==

    Who did it? The ISI, that's who did it. Though for reasons yet unexplained, Trish would have us believe otherwise.

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  62. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  63. It was America. Marriott is owned by the Latter Day Saints, but the Pakistani government only allowed the Q'u'r'a'n to be placed int he desk drawer, rather than the Book of Mormon and the King James Bible as required by Marriott Corporate policy. Therefore, the Church initiated a controlled demolition.

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  64. 'Twas the Jews that did it. Or, maybe, the Nez Perce, finally taking revenge for their own "Trail of Tears" in retreat towards Canada.

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  65. You may have it, Teresita. That is a good theory.

    I don't know about other places in the U.S. but out this way there used to always be a copy of the Book of Mormon in the motels around here.

    These days, I noticed on our last trip, often you don't find the Bible, to say nothing of the Book of Mormon.

    But you can get naughty channels on the tv.

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  66. Rufus,

    Check out pg 26/30 of that pdf. :D

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  67. The Taliban? Al-Qaeda? Both of them?

    Both of them seems the correct answer, as it's hard to distinquish between the two; that's my quess. With maybe some technical assistance from the ISI.

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  68. Bobal: I don't know about other places in the U.S. but out this way there used to always be a copy of the Book of Mormon in the motels around here.

    My girlfriend works at one of the Marriotts around here in King County, and sometimes we go to Portland and get a room with her employee discount, and they always have a Gideon's KJV and a Book of Mormon. But I've already read both of those cover-to-cover, and besides, they ain't no deterrent anyhow.

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  69. Tes,

    That's pretty kinky, reading Mormon scripture cover-to-cover while undercover with your friend under the cover. :)

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  70. Metuselah: That's pretty kinky, reading Mormon scripture cover-to-cover while undercover with your friend under the cover. :)

    Oh yes, nothing gets women-centered women more worked up than something like the Book of Mormon, of which Orson Scott Card (himself a Mormon) says:

    ...women are virtually absent from the Book of Mormon. When they do manage to show up, they are rarely named. There are only three women who are actually of the culture of the Book of Mormon who are given names. One is Sariah, the mother of Nephi. Another is a harlot named Isabel, and the third is a servant woman named Abish.

    None of the queens who show up in the story are mentioned by name. None of these writers ever mentions his own wife, and when women do show up in a specific role they're still almost never named. Nephi did not even bother to mention the name of the woman who saved his life by pleading for him in the desert.

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  71. hehe, I was going to make a joke, but decided it was too raunchy.

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  72. Behind every good Mormon man, there's a woman, silent, obedient, invisible, or three or four.

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  73. Bobal: And, two dozen kids.

    Mormon women stop having kids at 35, because 36 is just too dang many!

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  74. As to who did it and why, THIS makes perfect sense, if true.

    Target said to be some CIA guys staying at the Merriot.

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  75. Mat, looks like the "Roadster" sells for about $100K. It appears they sell a couple of hundred/year.

    Ethanol/at present powers the equivalent, I guess, of about 35 Million Cars, Worldwide compared to a couple hundred thousand for electricity/hybrid.

    We should be able to ramp the ethanol-power to 150-300 Million without too much heartache within 10 years. Of course, if we really got cracking there's no telling what we could do.

    Anyhoo, we've got plenty of options. The trick is just to get "busy" on a couple of them.

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  76. What's the cost of a 'fill-up' in an electric car like the Tesla? You know, how many Kilowatt hours does it take to recharge a battery which enables you to travel x miles? It should be an easily identifiable number.

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  77. I'd like to know how long it takes to charge up one of these rigs? Sounds like you may have a car you can only drive a few hours a day, then you get to charge it up for hours.

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  78. If I recall correctly, it takes seven or eight hours of 120 V, or three, or four hours of 240 V. I think if you have the equipment you can do a Quick Charge of an hour, or so.

    I think you're looking at the equivalent of about Sixty or Seventy Cent Gasoline.

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  79. A Quick Change being putting in another set of batteries?

    Sounds like a guy might want to have two small electric cars, if you could afford it. Drive one, charge the other.

    Al Gore could have a whole stable of electric cars to drive around.

    Oh, that's right, forgot, he's driven in a limo, and travels by jet plane too.

    Speaking of liiimmmmooooos, guy down the streeeeeeeet has four of the suckers sitting around his driveway and yard.

    Stretch limos, never see him driving them though.

    Darkened windows, perfect for car bombings, if you're into that.

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  80. In Europe the company's Opel brand hopes to corner the market for smaller, more fuel efficient models.

    For the 2009 model year GM have introduced the Chevrolet Volt, an electric car that hopes to take off where the EV-1 crashed.

    But is it too late?


    For Better or Worse

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  81. !!!!!!!!!!!

    PALIN DRAWS CROUD OF 60,000-SIXTY THOUSAND IN FLORIDA

    :0 :)

    Biden can't get 500. :)

    If McCain wins, he owes Palin.

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  82. I watched a bit of her addressing that crowd this morning before going to work. She was speaking good. No stumbles. Crowd energized.

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  83. Charging & Batteries
    About 220 Miles Between Charges
    Before now, electric vehicles typically capped off around 60 miles per charge, relegating them to the status of commuter cars. The Tesla Roadster changes all that. Plug it in at night when you pull into the garage and you can drive about 220 miles on that charge the next day.

    Just like the fuel gauge in your existing car, the instruments inside the Tesla Roadster indicate how many more miles can be driven before you need to think about recharging. So unlike the old days of electric vehicles, now you can "drive electric" without the anxiety you'll run out of charge and be left stranded.

    How Long Does Your Cell Phone Take to Charge?
    If you're like most people, you can't answer this question. You plug in your phone every night, and it's fully charged in the morning. You never think about how long it took so long as the charge lasts throughout the next day. Once you get into the habit, that"s the way you'll feel about your Tesla Roadster; every morning you'll wake up to a fully charged car, ready for whatever is on the day's agenda.

    Charge At Home or On the Road
    Plug your Tesla Roadster into its at-home High Power Connector unit, and you'll be fully charged in about 3.5 hours. But we consider this a "worst case" for someone starting with a completely dead battery. Even after a 100-mile trip, you can be completely charged in less than two hours.* And should you need to charge on the road, packed away in the trunk is an optional Mobile Connector that lets you charge from most standard electrical outlets while away from home.

    A Bonus: Regenerative Braking
    Regenerative braking — which recovers and stores the energy usually lost when you slow down — extends your charge even further, delivering higher miles-per-charge on in-town driving. Think of it like engine braking with a bonus. Whenever you slow down, you send a charge back into the battery. It's a much-needed silver lining to red lights, traffic jams, and other slowdowns.

    A Better Battery
    Unlike the lead-acid or nickel metal hydride batteries in most electric cars — which are heavy and difficult to dispose of — we use a proprietary Lithium ion battery pack. Nickel cadmium batteries were notorious for memory problems, and nickel metal hydride batteries reduced this problem. The lithium ion batteries we use in the Tesla Roadster eliminate the problem. So there is no need to worry about waiting until the battery pack is fully discharged before recharging it: feel free to charge your car whenever you have access to power.

    Even with the demands of charging and discharging the battery pack on a daily basis, the batteries in the Tesla Roadster will give you more than 100,000 miles of peak performance driving. After that point, the battery will see only gradual drops in performance over time.

    Battery Recycling
    Unlike other batteries that came before them, Lithium ion batteries are classified by the federal government as non-hazardous waste and are safe for disposal in the normal municipal waste stream. However, dumping these batteries in the trash would be throwing money away. Even a completely dead battery pack contains valuable, recoverable materials that can be sold back to recycling companies for cash.

    But reuse is such a key part of our philosophy, we're doing our best to arrange to have our car batteries safely recycled — even before we've sold our first car. Our goal is to include the cost of recycling in the purchase price of each car.

    Electrical Cost to Charge the Batteries
    With your electrical company's incentive pricing factored in, it will cost you roughly 1 cent per mile to drive the Tesla Roadster.**
    .
    .
    http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/charging_and_batteries.php

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  84. To recap:

    / 1 cent per mile
    / About 220 miles between charges
    / 3.5 hours for a full charge going from empty

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  85. That does sound good, Mat. I'm for electric cars. Just think nuke plants are the best way to power 'em.

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  86. Great link on the "Oilisticus," Bob.

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  87. Just think nuke plants are the best way to power 'em.
    ==

    Bob, that's a bogus issue. To power the entire US car fleet on electricity, you only need to add 5-10% of additional electric power generation. This can easily be done using green energy like solar and wind.

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  88. Mat, looks like the "Roadster" sells for about $100K. It appears they sell a couple of hundred/year.
    ==

    That's the "Roadster". The sports sedan will be much cheaper.

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  89. Electrical Cost to Charge the Batteries
    With your electrical company's incentive pricing factored in, it will cost you roughly 1 cent per mile to drive the Tesla Roadster.**


    how much without that "incentive pricing"?


    If you get 40 miles to the gallon of gas and it cost 4 bucks a gallon you are looking at a cost of 10 cents per mile.

    It would be nice to see a comparable cost per mile for the electric car (i.e. without incentive pricing based on a defined electicity charge - elec companies usually charge per kilowatt hr.)

    Once you have that number then you can figure in battery costs (life and replacement times) to come up with a general operating expense for the vehicle. That plus the purchase price would give you a reasonable estimate of its competiveness.

    If you got 1 cent a mile operating vs. 10 cent a mile (gas) for a similar purchase price it'd be a no brainer - invent a better mousetrap....

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  90. $2.20/220 miles

    I pay $63 for 220 miles.

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  91. mat wrote:

    "To power the entire US car fleet on electricity, you only need to add 5-10% of additional electric power generation. "

    How did you come up with this estimate? All the cars in the US for only a 10% increase in electric power? Seems fanciful to me.

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  92. Boy oh boy, bob.
    60,000 folk, outdoors?

    Does stirring oration, enraptured youth, and outdoor extravaganza impress you?

    If it does, you would not be the first. The youth in this old video clip were obviously hungry for change and not terribly interested in the details. They were tired of the old and yearned for a new era, a thousand years of it if I recall.
    ...
    Spread the verbal and visual smorgasbord before the crowd and you will get the familiar results known by all natural leaders. However, the party always ends and rarely ends well.


    The EB, 29Aug08

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  93. Depending on where and when you charge, the cost would be between 1 and 4 cent per mile.

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  94. Mat, we (well I) are asking for mor then your word on it. Can you give us amp/hrs, kiolwatt hour rates ect?

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  95. Sounds like a Wall Street hustler, looking for Government handouts.

    That he found a sucker in the Israeli, not all that fanciful.

    When does the first battery swap station break ground?

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  96. There are pretty basic equations when dealing with electric power and its cost.

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  97. How did you come up with this estimate? All the cars in the US for only a 10% increase in electric power? Seems fanciful to me.
    ==

    Not at all. Israel will use an additional 6% to convert its entire fleet. I just made the assumption that in the US the number of cars per household is double that of Israel.

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  98. Mat, we (well I) are asking for mor then your word on it. Can you give us amp/hrs, kiolwatt hour rates ect?
    ==

    I'm not your secretary. There are plenty of places on the net where this math has already been done. The info is very to be had. Go and google it.

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  99. ..The info is very ^easy to be had..

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  100. Mətušélaḥ why is it so difficult for you to properly answer these questions?

    Give us the equations, the cost estimates ect. How many kilowatt hours to charge? what cost per kilowatt hour are you assuming? How much does a battery cost? What is the battery life?

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  101. sounds like you are full of it mat.

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  102. If we take you numbers at face value mat and accept that you get to travel for 1 cent per mile vs 10 cents per mile using gas. If the car cost 100k and the gas equivalent car costs....what? shall we say 40k? How long will it take to break even at 9 cents saving per mile? Answer approximately 66,666 miles.

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  103. You're such a cunt, Ashley.

    Here you go:

    Via Wiki

    A car powered by an internal combustion engine at 20% efficiency, getting 8 L/100 km (30 mpg), will require (8.9*8)*0.20 = 14.2 kW·h/100 km. At a cost of $1/L, 8 L/100 km is $8 per 100 km.

    A battery electric version of that same car with a charge/discharge efficiency of 81%, and charged at a cost of $0.10 for kW·h would cost (14.2/0.81)*0.10 = $1.75 per 100 km, or would be paying the equivalent of $0.22/L. The Tesla uses about 13 kW·h/100 km, the EV1 used about 11 kW·h/100 km.

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  104. This can easily be done using green energy like solar and wind.

    Uhh, maybe not, Mat. The reason it's figured it would take only a 10, or 15% increase in Electrical Generating Capacity is that, typically, the Charging will be done at night.

    While it's true the wind does blow at night, sometimes, you would probably have to add a few dozen nukes, or such. It's not a show-stopper.

    Electric Cars won't be for "Everybody," (range will limit the desirability for some) But, I'm sure, many would love such a vehicle.

    Ash, his costs are, I think, pretty much in line. I've read quite a bit on EVs. Of course, the Tesla Salesman puts the prettiest numbers up, but overall they're way the cheapest way to go on a "per mile" basis.

    The big question-mark is what will the batteries cost when you're producing 20, or 30 million "packs" per year.

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  105. $0.175/km x 1.6 mile/km
    = $0.28/mile

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  106. You can, at present, run E85 for about $0.10/mile in a Chevy HHR. I expect this to be closer to six, or seven cents in a few years. Maybe a nickel.

    Predictions are Difficult, especially when they involve the future. Yogi Berra

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  107. Fraulein Palin, Rat.

    Best thing since bratwurst and lagerbeer.

    Even cynics should rejoice.

    The old days drag to an end, the new bursts forth, full of joy and commitment, and spiritual love.

    A woman without guile...Meister Eckhart would recognize her, the fuhrer would not.

    There are some good things in life.

    The youth in this old video clip were obviously hungry for change

    But Palin's constituency isn't the thoughtless youth, who have gone whoring after false gods of 'hope' and 'change', but staid old farts like myself, and 60,000 middle class, many military, tax paying folks in Florida, who like a woman who walks her talk. Which she has done so far, may the Lord guard her from corruption and the ways of the big city.

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  108. How long will it take to break even at 9 cents saving per mile? Answer approximately 66,666 miles.
    ==

    That's why in Israel they'll be giving these cars away, and only charge you what you already pay for maintenance and fuel. :)

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  109. Oops, that should read:

    $0.0175/km x 1.6 mile/km
    = $0.028/mile

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  110. :) hehehe--doesn't exactly sound like a Nazi Youth Rally to me, more like the burbs, with rest homes interspaced...


    THE VILLAGES - With thousands of supporters packing the streets and sidewalks of this MASSIVE RETIREMENT COMMUNITY

    Lots of Jews live in those Florida retirement communities too, fleeing the snows of New York.

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  111. 20 miles per gallon
    $3.50 per gallon

    17.5 cents per mile

    Electric - 28 cents per mile.

    Even at 220 mile range, that gets you no where, in the American West.

    An hour to fill up?
    If the station is not backlogged.

    Gotta be smokin' the "good stuff" to think that'll float a boat.

    Especially in the 250 million vehicle fleet that has another 20 years of economic life.

    There ate 300 million US residents
    there are 250 million vehicles.

    Are there 2.5 million cars in Israel? That would be half the US per capita vehicle rate.

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  112. What is the battery life?
    ==

    That info was already posted.

    "..more than 100,000 miles of peak performance driving. After that point, the battery will see only gradual drops in performance over time."

    Given my experience with laptop batteries, I'd say you can easily squeeze 300,000 miles usable miles from these batteries.

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  113. Electric - 28 cents per mile.
    ==

    2.8 cents per mile.
    I misplaced a decimal.

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  114. Rat, and Bob, and I will probably be driving flex fuels, or, at the least, flex fuel hybrids. I could, however, see my son driving a pure EV in a couple of years. He works in the City, puts on probably 100 miles/day. For trips, they'll use the wife's car. Maybe.

    It'll all depend, I think, on the batteries. The Cost. And, How he Feels.

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  115. The IHT tells us that:
    Agassi predicts that a few thousand electric cars will be on Israeli roads in 2009 and 100,000 by the end of 2010; Israel has two million cars on the road, and about 10 percent are replaced each year.

    Since it is almost 2009, and there are no electric cars on the road, we'll be able to watch the progress, in real time.

    20,000 vehicles to be leased in '09, and 80,000 in '10. To meet that prediction.
    There is no factory, with that production capacity, yet, is there?

    100,000 batteries per year, to fill demand, minimum. Is that factory built?

    When does the first swap station break ground?
    When will the parking lots get wired and at what cost?

    Only time will tell

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  116. dRat,

    Agassi made it clear. They intend to have the network set up and ready BEFORE any cars are introduced. There's much more to it than just swap stations, there's lots of software and communication network to set up.

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  117. When do they break ground?

    To wire the parking lots, the street side parking.

    Where are the meters going to be placed, for that unassigned street parking?

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  118. It'll be interesting to watch
    Looks like a Bricklin deal, to me
    Maybe I'll be proven wrong, maybe not.

    By the by, Bricklin is at it, again, this time in China.
    A 100mpg car, roll out, 2009.

    Bricklin believes that the car he will bring to the US will use hybrid technology to gain such a high mile to the gallon. The car will use a new kind of battery pack that will be recharged by a small on board engine constantly running at a certain RPM - just enough to recharge the engine. He also went on to state that the proposed vehicle would be in the same class as the Mercedes E Class but retailing at between $15,000 to $25,000USD.

    Time will tell

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  119. Bricklin's deal of rechargong while driving sounds much more user friendly, also provides for unlimited range.

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  120. When do they break ground?

    To wire the parking lots, the street side parking.

    Where are the meters going to be placed, for that unassigned street parking?
    ==

    You're not following. This isn't some dumb fsck project, done the dumb fsck way. The charge outlets are already there. If you need a charge, the car will tell you where to go depending on where you're going. The meter is in the car.

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  121. No new infrastructure, no communication network, no new swap stations.

    Just much less fuel used.

    Bricklin is a master bullshitter, puts Mr Agassi to shame.

    What is the cost and timeline for wiring the street, the parking lots and building the swap stations?

    Can't even get an oil change in thirty minutes, at Jiffy Lube.

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  122. So they cannot charge it while it is parked, at home, in the street?

    If the swap station is busy. the consumer will have to wait 3.5 hours for the battery to charge?

    At $20 bucks per hour, time value of the driver, thats a $70 dollar fill up. No savings there, just lost productivity for the driver.

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  123. The meter is in the car.
    ==

    And there's no incentive to mess with it, because the cost for unlimited miles is already paid for.

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  124. How many swap stations, per thousand cars?

    How many bays per station?

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  125. In an August interview with Manufacturing & Technology eJournal, Integrity Automotive Chief Executive Randall Waldman said the plant would be online in just a year. He expects an initial workforce of about 1,250, hired 30 to 60 days before production starts.

    Waldman and Zap officials say it will take about four years to ramp up to 4,000 workers. Waldman also owns Integrity Manufacturing in Shepherdsville.

    That company - which started in Feb 2007 and has grown to 400 workers - will be a Tier I supplier to the new plant and will open a support facility there to do all stamping as well as frame construction, Waldman said.


    Record August Sales

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  126. If the swap station is busy. the consumer will have to wait 3.5 hours for the battery to charge?
    ==

    You plug your destination and the computer figures out what you need, if you need anything, and where best to get it.

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  127. It smells of a scam, amigo.

    Somethin' for nothin'
    Chicks for free.

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  128. Plug in where?

    There are no outlets in the parking garages, not around here, and I doubt in Israel.

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  129. How many swap stations, per thousand cars?

    How many bays per station?
    ==

    C'mon, give it a break. I'm not their representative.

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  130. There are no outlets in the street, near roadside parking.

    Where do we plug in?
    In an urban enviorment.

    Or do we rewire those parking structures?
    At what cost, and to whom?

    Who upgrades the infrastructure outside the apartment buildings?

    When do they start?

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  131. I'll giv'em props for tryin something. Three fifty gasoline will get a lot of things tried. Some might even work.

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  132. If nearly 7 million GM Volts can be operated on saved electricity from outdoor light done right, and nearly 2.7 million electric only vehicles can be recharged from the same amount of power, imagine what eight times this amount of freed up power could do from commercial and industrial lighting. If the United States were ever to get serious about doing something about global climate change and our hemorrhaging of petrodollars overseas we would be doing this.

    We are beginning to see is the vast potential for electrical efficiencies to power our transportation fleet well into the future on more benign sources of power. The off peak grid has a great amount of elasticity, in that we can exploit current wasteful practices for new power.

    Power is now being wastefully thrown away to known inefficiencies. In short, all of this could be done for a large net negative cost in money, with pay backs as short as five years to our society, and greatly reduced environmental impacts.


    Chevy Volts

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  133. Those are all the questions pertaining to viability of the plan

    Questions not addressed in Agassi's public presentations.

    He's selling pie in the sky.
    Here in Scottsdale we see a lot of that.

    Here's to hope, but it seems far fethed, at this point.

    No cars, no batteries, no swap stations, today, but 100,000 cars on the road, in 27 months.

    Don't bogart that joint.

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  134. Israel Prime Minister Says Developing Electric Vehicles is “National Project”; Seeking Partnership with Japanese
    29 February 2008

    Nikkei. On a visit to Japan, Israel Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said that the country intends to make the development of electric vehicles a national project and will seek to partner with Japanese companies.

    Israel will build infrastructure by setting up 500,000 recharging devices in parking lots across the country. It will raise the tax for gasoline-powered vehicles to 72% while holding down the rate for electric vehicles to 10% to spur purchases of the eco-friendly cars.

    In January, The Renault-Nissan Alliance and Project Better Place signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) to catalyze the mass-market deployment of electric vehicles in Israel. The solution framework comes in response to the Israeli State’s challenge to the auto industry and its supply chain to migrate the country’s transportation infrastructure to renewable sources of energy. As part of the solution framework, the Israeli government will provide tax incentives to customers, Renault will supply the electric vehicles, and Project Better Place will construct and operate an Electric Recharge Grid across the entire country. Electric vehicles will be available for customers in 2011.

    Olmert visited a Nissan factory in Kanagawa Prefecture Thursday, accompanied by Shai Agassi, president of California-based start-up Project Better Place...Noting that the electric-vehicle business will become commercially viable in Israel in 2011, Agassi said he came to Japan seeking partners.
    .
    .
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/02/israel-prime-mi.html

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  135. But far too often, theories fly in the face of proven facts, which provide a convincing if not always complete explanation of events. In this respect many theorists are no different from - and no less dangerous than - the self-deceivers, the "deniers", of events such as the Holocaust and the Balkan atrocities, according to the Melbourne academic Tony Taylor, author of the recent study Denial: History Betrayed.

    It might be imagined that such conspiracy theorists would be increasingly drowned out by the information generated by the internet, which should support the view that disturbing, unsettling, complicated events may feature conspirators, but are more likely to be explained by cock-ups by known individual agents rather than shadowy Da Vinci Code-like organisations. Quite the reverse.

    As Taylor says, the internet, through its reach, through its ability to create communities of interests, provides an ideal incubation box for wacky theories, especially at times of uncertainty, when people are understandably more distrustful of their masters and, of course, their media. So what to do, whom to believe?


    They've All got it In for Me

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  136. I think what gets overlooked in the exuberance is "Numbers." As Rat stated, there are close to 250 Million Autos in the U.S. alone. Then, you've got Big Trucks, Tractors, farm vehicles, etc.

    Societies don't like to change by "revolution." It, normally, works out badly for the first couple of generations. Societies like to "Evolve."

    The question to ask yourself is, "Which acceptable technology is most compatible with the "Old" technology?" Which fits in better with the existing "Infrastructure?" With Which will the "People" be the most "Comfortable?

    Biofuels

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  137. So, if the lighting police have their way we could power
    GM volt’s yearly consumption yields the amazing figure of 6,692,000 GM Volt’s that can be operated without building one new power plant.

    Let's say 7 million.

    Half of the new vehicles sold, annually.

    Then what?

    To replace the 250 million vehicles, that's gonna take some new generation capacity, lots of it, that's for sure.

    7 million cars, just a drop in the perverbial bucket.

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  138. So, mat, let us factor in the cost of the infrastructure to each of the vehicles, whether Israeli government builds it out, or just pays for it.
    The costs still apply. An artifical subsidy does not make for actual economic viability.

    Ask the boys at Lehman Bros.

    As with all good scams, the rollout date has been moved off, from '09 to '10 and now out to 2011.
    Typical.
    Olmert is gone, now, is he not?

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  139. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  140. ah Mencken---

    "The central belief of every moron is that he is the victim of a mysterious conspiracy against his common rights and true deserts," Mencken presciently wrote. "He ascribes all his failures to get on in the world, all of his congenital incapacity and damfoolishness, to the machinations of werewolves assembled in Wall Street, or some other such den of infamy."
    h/t Sam

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  141. Rufus, what do you think of the idea of moving the interstate trucking to natural gas?

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  142. Fraud or some such, was the cause of Olmert leaving government, no?

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  143. Birds of a feather, flocking together.

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  144. So, mat, let us factor in the cost of the infrastructure to each of the vehicles,..
    ==

    Already stated at $200 million. Or $500 per car, if you plan to sell 400,000 cars.

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  145. ZAP Trucks For all your farming needs. Cattle to market, harvest to bin, wife to the post office.

    I'll take the Ford F-150.

    And, Linear, if you are about tonight, I'll try to call jor-ge one more time tomorrow.

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  146. Fraud or some such, was the cause of Olmert leaving government, no?
    ==

    No. It was for accepting money towards personal trip allowances from a wealthy supporter.

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  147. The government of Israel is on average no more corrupt than ours is, maybe even, a few percent less so, as the government and people are closer to one another, and the folks have more opportunity to keep an eye on the politicians.

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  148. Hey guys, I know electricity works, but fossil fuels still have to be burnt to generate it. At last count, the efficiency of the entire process, converting the fuel's internal energy(what we chemists call enthalpy change of combustion) to electricity at point of use, is at most 15%.

    Now, I'm told that ICEs are even less efficient, so it might be a net gain. However, the problem remains the fuel for the electric generating power plant has to come from somewhere.

    I'm currently writing a term paper of sorts on this. I'm thinking of natural gas for electrical generation, since power plants that use methane can run up to 40% efficient when the electricity starts going into the lines. The natural gas can come from the anaerobic respiration of decaying algae matter, which is in turn fed by algae growing tanks hooked up to nearby CO2 producing industries.

    I've given up on algae directly producing suitable carbon chains that can be fermented to ethanol or longer chained alcohols, such as butanol, because there are apparently some separation problems and energy needs to be consumed to separate ethanol and water. Unless the fermenters work out a bacteria that can produce butanol, it's not likely to work.

    Can it work out? I have no idea, but it'll be interesting to find out. The best thing is that the technology already exists. It's just a matter of finding out how much volume you need in the algae tanks for self sufficiency.

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  149. Indian Point Energy Center manifests nearly all that is inane and insane about humans shattering atomic nuclei and hubristically believing we can play with the fires of hell without getting burned.....

    Yet there's at least a "little" Eichmann in all of us as we faithfully participate in our ecocidal "American Way of Life." So what do we care about a little radiation here or a few meltdowns there?

    Remember, "Killing is [our] business.....and business is good!" Just ask a member of that species that will be extinct in about 15 minutes....


    One Atom at a Time

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  150. Wobbly, why not nuclear energy? Clean, safe, non polluting, really puts out the power....

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  151. Just caught up to your 12:03 Bob.

    Thanks.

    Saw a nice new F-150 down by the mailbox rack. Extended cab, 4wd, etc.

    ---------
    Rufus is right re biofuels. They'll be needed to tide us over through transition that rat correctly quantifies. Pray the government stays out of the process, and let the market select the most viable technologies.

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  152. Pray the government stays out of the process, and let the market select the most viable technologies.
    ==

    By that time, the US economy will be long dead.

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  153. In Biofuels, we again saw the potential for huge losses driven by poor risk management practices applied to hedging strategies. Read more here. Veresun (VSE) dragged the Biofuels strategy down for the week with a 67 % decline.

    This is after a a 50% bounce the stock received following it's announcement it was reviewing "strategic alternatives" in the wake of its hedging loss.

    On the up side LED-Lighting's Cree (CREE) capped its strong week with an upgrade. Oppenheimer's analyst apparently thinks light-emitting diodes are being adopted as a mainstream lighting product.


    Sustainable Energy Mixed

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  154. Wobbly--...The natural gas can come from the anaerobic respiration of decaying algae matter, which is in turn fed by algae growing tanks hooked up to nearby CO2 producing industries.

    Hog farmers in Iowa were using that approach when I was in 4H in the 50s. Heating their hog sheds from pig shit.

    If memory serves me, and unless there's been real progress in anaerobic digesters, it's a difficult process to maintain at equilibrium, at least in municiple treatment plants. Homogeneous feed stock flow might help, but it's still slow, and very susceptible to temperature fluctuations around the digester.

    Google old T. Rowe Pickens. He'll sell ya on NG for backup power for his rent seeking wind farms.

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  155. By that time, the US economy will be long dead.

    LOL

    Long dead due to government meddling.

    :-)

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  156. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  157. From Bob's ZAP Bike link:

    SPEEDS:
    Pedal assisted speeds are approximately 10 to 18 mph (180 pound rider). If you pedal more, you can go faster. Lighter riders may go faster, heavier may go slower.


    Technology I can understand!

    :-)

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  158. Obama's head guy on the west coast has called Palin 'white trash' for having all them kids in a village in Alaska:)

    Keep it up, alienate American womanhood!

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