The F-22 is the most advanced and capable fighter in the world. It needs to be built and deployed because we cannot afford to have someone else (China) build it and deploy against us. That is a simple inelegant fact of life. Secretary Gates thinks differently:
______________
Air Force shakeup may spur spending shifts
Sun Jun 8, 2008 11:53am EDT
By Jim Wolf - Analysis Reuters
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The ouster of the Air Force's top two officials may spur even more Pentagon spending on equipment for current wars and end production of pricey F-22 jets designed for potential conflicts with countries such as China.
Defense Secretary Robert Gates forced the resignations of Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne and Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Moseley on Thursday after gaffes involving nuclear and missile security.
The Air Force's accidental shipping of ballistic-missile fuses to Taiwan may have been the last straw amid strains over acquisition priorities, remotely piloted vehicles and other friction about post-Iraq needs, experts on the military said.
Starting months ago, Gates had singled out the Air Force's top-of-the-line Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N: Quote, Profile, Research) F-22 Raptor fighter jet as a prime example of what he deemed misplaced military priorities.
"The reality is we are fighting two wars, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the F-22 has not performed a single mission in either theatre," Gates told a Senate committee in February. He later urged all the services to send more remotely piloted planes, such as General Atomics' Predator, to the battlefield, a step that feeds surveillance video to troops in real time.
Under Wynne and Moseley, the Air Force had sought to buy 381 radar-evading F-22s -- more than twice as many as the 183 budgeted by the Defense Department. The F-22 costs more than $132 million apiece.
Dov Zakheim, who retired as the Pentagon's chief financial officer in 2004, said the Air Force shake-up would prompt the Army, Navy and Marine Corps to rethink their big-ticket acquisition plans as well to make sure they met Gates' goals.
"What just happened underscores the secretary's concern that the (Defense) department pursue programs that are most relevant to the kinds of wars that he expects the United States to continue to fight," Zakheim said in a telephone interview.(more here)
I don't see how the pilots keep from blacking out on those turns.
ReplyDeleteThe Chinese are building the J10, which is based upon technologies bought from the Israeli, which the stole from US, in the Lavi prject.
ReplyDeleteBut that, amigos, is way not competitive with what we have now, let alone the F-22.
If the SU-27 replaced the J10's development, the Chi-coms ain't buildin' anything near F15 capable, let alone F22.
We do not need the F22, there is no enemy aircraft for it to fight.
We need close air support and death from above capacity, more bombers.
Not more fighters, not with the limited budget available, after the Iraq costs are factored into Defense spending.
Iraq or ...?
The US continues to spend on Iraq, instead of ...
Can't have your cake, and eat it, too
Until it was canceled in 1987, much of Lavi technological development was paid for by the United States. Ironically, the potential capability of F-10 fighters was cited by both the US Navy and Air Force as one of the future threats justifying the expenditure of billions on new tactical aircraft, such as the F-22, F/A-18F, and Joint Strike Fighter. The fact that possibly US-derived technology provided by an ally might be contributing to that potential threat is a delicate subject.
ReplyDeleteThe Asia Times story is datelined 2002.
So, the Chinese are rumored to have promised to sell 24 of these J10 aircraft to Iran, but who knows the truth of that.
What makes the F-22 so good? To my inexpert eye, it looks more or less like any other fighter jet. It doesn't look like it would be any faster. The electronics and weapons systems?
ReplyDeleterat states: The Chinese are building the J10, which is based upon technologies bought from the Israeli, which the stole from US, in the Lavi prject.
ReplyDeleteBut that, amigos, is way not competitive with what we have now, let alone the F-22.
If the SU-27 replaced the J10's development, the Chi-coms ain't buildin' anything near F15 capable, let alone F22.
so why bring it up?
the jew stole technology that doesnt compete with the current technology thus selling old shit to the chinese, this was how many years ago?
dear rat, tell us something important....
tell us something current that actually has meaning
The F22's, if sold to Israel, will not be used against iran, Iran will long have been solved in 24 months...
The USA should use them TODAY....
The F22 costs $137.5 million dollars a copy. But if the government is going to blow that kind of money, the F22 is surely what it should be blowing it on, rather than bridges to nowhere.
ReplyDelete"dear rat, tell us something important....
ReplyDeletetell us something current that actually has meaning"
naw, rat's just into opening old wounds. wonder why he doesn't want this one to heal??
what is...
ReplyDeletePlease tell me I don't have to.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteChavez Eats A Little Crow
ReplyDeleteI did, that the grave threat that Obama says Iran poses to Isrel, are from techmologies the Israeli stole, sold and are now going to used against them.
ReplyDeleteAfter the arms prolierated, through the global food chain.
From US to Israel and Pakistan, to China and then to Iran.
Some of the same sources, in reverse, China to Pakistan to Iran, is the source of another product that will be a grave threat to Israel.
Those cetrifuges keep on turnin'.
But being in the midst of the illicit arms trade, a State like Israel has to live with the risks of its criminality. Lie down with dogs, you may get fleas.
Or so it's said of Barack
Frozen out of the F35 program, the Israeli arms merchants won't be able to sell those secrets in the arms bazaars of Babylon or Peking.
Don't.
ReplyDeleteWe want to keep any future "Serious" threats Discouraged; That's why we must have the F-22, and the F-35, and the B-2, and the Airborne Laser, and the ICBM Interceptor.
ReplyDeleteWe let the dumbass Germans, and Japanese think they could win; and it cost us one hell of a war. And, that was before Nukes.
You just Can't put a Price on that.
Bob: What makes it so good is "you can't see the damned thing on radar." All that dog-fighting stuff is just a little pizazz thrown in for the fotogs.
It is also important, the technlogy source of the J10 program, to exemplify that the Chicoms could not build, even the J10, wihout US technologies, however they were obtained.
ReplyDeleteThe Chiccom do not seem to have the engineering skills, homegrown.
Don't make me say that again.
ReplyDeleteRat IS right on one thing. Israel will, almost certainly, never be involved in another "Strategic" Arms Deal of "existential" qualities.
ReplyDeleteAhhh, but they will not fnd allof the projects, rufus.
ReplyDeleteThat's the facts.
So priorities must be chosen.
Close air support, or dog fighters.
How many F14s, F15s or F16s have been lost to hostile fire, ever?
The US's two best allies in the "War on Terror" have both sold US out to the Chinese, previously.
ReplyDeleteSelling our technoligies, but still recieving US largess.
Ain't that somethin'
The argument is not one of either or. We need both. Rufus is correct.
ReplyDeleteAnd as usual, you need these things most when you think you need them the least.
ReplyDelete"What makes the F-22 so good? To my inexpert eye, it looks more or less like any other fighter jet. It doesn't look like it would be any faster. The electronics and weapons systems?"
ReplyDeletePrimarily - stealth, supercruise, and thrust vector maneuverability. There are also avionics improvements, but it is those three, especially the first two, that make it a step up from the current platforms. To answer your other question, the pilots wear G-suits. Other than that there isn't much that can be done, the truth is that the primary holdup on increasing aircraft maneuverability isn't the planes, it is pilots...Cue unmanned aircraft, if it can be done.
Gates' reason is obviously Desert Rat's reason, rightly or wrongly. What kind of conflicts to prepare for is the 1 million dollar question reverberating through the Pentagon. Though it should be said that the program was already in trouble before Iraq. Namely, equipment costs per piece in all the services are increasing, while the defense departments share of the national budget isn't.
And the Su-27, flown by a good pilot, is in the same class the F-15. 35 year old technology and all.
It is amazing that it does not snap the wings off. It has so much power, it seems incapable of a stall. We need to build it because it can be built.
ReplyDeleteThe argument is not that the F22 is abad plane. Not at all.
ReplyDeleteIt's that it is unneeded.
The SU27 is the competition, and though the stealth aspects of the F22 may be excellent, that's not enough.
They are not a Close Air Support platform, are way to costly and sophisticated, for that risk profile.
duece mentioned in the post
because we cannot afford to have someone else (China) build it and deploy against us
That's not about to happen, not without further US or allied assistance. The Chicoms would not be where they are, if not for US, Pakistan and Israel.
The F35 should fill the need for a new airframe with stealth cababilities.
ReplyDeleteIts' costs are spread over all the Branches, delivery more plane for the dollar in value.
The leadership has to pick one or the other, the multi-branch aircraft, wins.
On BC I mentioned Kunstler, Peak Oil, Israel, and the Insane Asylum. Here's a comment I found to keep China and this conversation in perspective:
ReplyDelete"For a very short period, our demand lessened as we entered a recession and manufacturing took flight to Japan.
It did the same during the recession in the late 1980s.
Then it did it again in 2001.
But each time, we were able to rebuild our dependance and dig our way out the recession. The two go together.
So if you mean reducing dependance by ending employment, then I think you understand the problem.
In the 1970s, we passed the peak of oil production in the US. Regardless of how many wells there were and how productive they are, aggregate production peaked, took a dive then levelled out because we scaled back production on purpose.
In fact no other nation has followed the US example, and kept production low for so long. Yet the USGS models optimistically assume that all nations do that. None have.
Now the North American continent is evidently peaking in Natural Gas. And unfortunately, it doesn't have a long decline slope like oil. Once a field is depleted, it goes from good production to zero pretty quickly. On a per well basis, almost all the new wells dug today, have a productive life of only a year.
Finally, Natural Gas doesn't ship well. Even liquidized we won't be able to ship enough to the US to provide our electric generater needs.
In a few short years, if that Exxon report is accurate, then we'll see the grid going down all over the US.
What we need is to go back in time and get the railways rebuilt and make the new plants run on clean coal instead of natural gas.
Without a time machine to save us, we'll have to just live in interesting times."
http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/2005/06/lahar_rules.html
"Selling our technoligies.."
ReplyDeleteSuch as?
The F16 and the component there of.
ReplyDeleteUS government make public its concerns about Israel's Lavi-related technology re-exports to China. David Lari, director general of Israel's Ministry of Defense, acknowledged in an Associated Press interview that "some technology on aircraft" had been sold to China and that some Israeli companies may not have "clean hands".
Rat, I'd bet the Chinese already have the the purloined technology. We have underestimated China for 20 years. Why would you use this plane for close air support? This plane is strategic, high speed and the ability to carry long-range weapons are key to the planes mission, claimed or not.
ReplyDelete"The F16 and the component there of."
ReplyDeleteSuch as?
interesting mat. very interesting.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"The advance in facilities at Chengdu has been astonishing over the last 20 years. They now have a huge site with completely new test and development facilities, laboratories and an entirely new production line - quite apart from what was there to begin with," Jane's was told.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the potential impact of the Sichuan earthquake of 11 May on the aviation industry centred around Chengdu could be severe. In particular the research facility at Mianyang, one of the towns close to the epicentre of the quake, could have been extensively damaged.
With the disaster striking at the heart of China's aviation hub, it is hard not to see the J-10 project - and China's aviation industry as a whole - suffering considerable setbacks.
Which is where the Chicom nuke was reportedly "tested", triggering the earthquake.
Avionics ad radar, the stories relate, but it's "classified" all that is publicis that the Israelis are now "out of the development loop".
ReplyDeleteLibertarians rule.
ReplyDeleteYou betcha.
Who're you kidding, Rat?
ReplyDeleteTitle: Chinese J-10 fighter 'benefited from Israeli Lavi fighter project'
ReplyDeleteSource: Janes.com
URL Source: http://www.janes.com/news/defence/systems/jdw/jdw080519_2_n.shtml
Published: May 19, 2008
Author: ROBERT HEWSON Jane Air-Launched Weapons
It doesn't look stealthy, like those other stealthy planes I've seen, and it doesn't look like it's got the same kind of skin, either. It's got a really large tail section there, you'd think would reflect radar signals clearly. Do they have to keep it in a specail hanger? Have we come up with some new kind of stealthy material?
ReplyDeleted'Rat,
ReplyDeleteChina not only faces peak oIl, but peak water, and peak agriculture. The J-10 project is the least of their problems.
It was bob's link, to the Chicom nuke story, if I do recall, correctly.
ReplyDeleteRegardless, that's where the quake epicentered.
I'll stand by Janes, as to the Israeli technology transfers and proliferations
Doubt they ever get the chance to, trish.
ReplyDeleteThen you agree, mat, the Chicoms will not be building a plane to match the F22s capabilities
ReplyDeleteAnybody here read anything by Erik Ritter von Kuehnelt-Leddihn?
ReplyDeleteAvionics and radar?
ReplyDeleteAvionics and radar are a function of computing power. You do realize that the computer chip you're probably using was designed in Israel. So no, I don't buy that. If you would have said airframe materials, then maybe. Anyway, these Israeli designed electronics are licensed by Intel who then manufactures them in China. Your grievance is idiotic.
"It is the low drive for sameness and the hatred of otherness that characterizes all forms of leftism, which inevitably are totalitarian because, defying the divine diversity of the universe, these ideologies want to convert us by force to sameness -- sameness being the brother of equality. The leftist vision enjoins uniformity: the nation with one leader, one party, one race, one language, one class, one type of school, one law, one custom, one level of income, and so forth."
ReplyDeleteSounds like most elite universities to me if you take out the race part.
I needed a chuckle...and got one. No better job than being a barkeep in this joint.
ReplyDeleteIt is not my grievance, mat, it is the grievance of the United States of America.
ReplyDeleteAt Governmental paygrades well above any I ever obtained.
Then you agree, mat, the Chicoms will not be building a plane to match the F22s capabilities
ReplyDeleteNever heard of Erik von K-L, but I think a good king is sooner or later followed by a very bad one and they are hard to get rid of. The kings and queens of France, England, Spain, much of the time, weren't famous for their love of diversity. Descendents of hells angels on horseback, calling themselves noble. The guy sounds like he's got some personal ex to grind.
ReplyDelete"It is not my grievance, mat, it is the grievance of the United States of America."
ReplyDeleteThere's something else going on here, otherwise this don't make sense.
"Then you agree, mat, the Chicoms will not be building a plane to match the F22s capabilities."
ReplyDeleteI'd be more worried about Japan. They import 95% of their oil.
I've been saying that for some time, mat.
ReplyDeleteYou always disagree on the cause, but never advance a counter or alternate storyline.
Blinded by the light, I guess.
The Hebrews got infected with the idea of kingship in Egypt, and the crossing of the Jordan was a fall, confirmed by the coming of kingship to Israel, some poets say.
ReplyDeleteMat mentioned one time, if I recall rightly, the Israelite kings were mostly assholes.
Damn the King.
And can go nuclear weapons capable, tomorrow, or the next day.
ReplyDeleteIf they desire
Meanwhile in Israel, they are making merry about a runner of protecion services, adulterer, and murderer, of some 3,048 years ago.
ReplyDeleteKingship, no thanks.
Let us remember Uriah's birthday instead.
I think I'm going to put out an inter-library loan for 'The Intelligent American's Guide to Europe' and 'The Menace of the Herd.'
ReplyDeleteBob,
ReplyDeleteWhen you beat Goliath and his clan, and they have steel weapons while you only have bronze, you get to be anything you want to be. All hail the King! (Adulterer, murderer, that he may be).
Aha! Another royal lie. David did not slay Goliath. Whathisname did. Another instance of the damnable monarchical propaganda machine.
ReplyDeleteAnd he didn't write any good poems, either.
ReplyDeleteHe did kick Syrian butt. Which in my book is better any poetry. :)
ReplyDelete..better ^than any poetry..
ReplyDeleteDavid was extremely cagey, and a survivor. He'd do well on that TV series today:)
ReplyDeletecagey |ˈkājē| (also cagy)
ReplyDeleteadjective informal
reluctant to give information owing to caution or suspicion
Hmm,..
"If the whole human race lay in one grave, the epitaph on its headstone might well be: 'It seemed like a good idea at the time.'"
ReplyDeleteRebecca West
This was in a book on original sin, the eating of the apple, and I thought it was kind of good.
Oil Boarding Uncle Sam
ReplyDeletecartoon
Disco Floor, Mexico
ReplyDeleteVariations on the theme
your mind on drugs.
ReplyDeleteBobal: Aha! Another royal lie. David did not slay Goliath. Whathisname did. Another instance of the damnable monarchical propaganda machine.
ReplyDeleteBobal you've been reading that infernal New International Version again, the bible that had a lesbian on the committee which put it together.
THE NIV
"...Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver's rod."
THE AUTHORIZED KING JAMES VERSION
"...Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.
The End of a Mexican Bike Race
ReplyDeleteKing James version would try to fudge the truth.
ReplyDeletematamoros = moor(muzzie) killer, doesn't it?
mata--kill
moro--moor, muzzie
New disco craze--torso dancing. Leave your heads on the floor.
ReplyDelete"It is not my grievance, mat, it is the grievance of the United States of America.
ReplyDeleteAt Governmental paygrades well above any I ever obtained."
interesting. i worked for a civil servant that was department head for a certain naval project that used to spout off about how the israelis were responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing. said it was meant to make the US angry at the muslims (that is until they caught McVeigh). you kinda remind me of him. and as far as Jane's goes, they are not a pure entity.