US 'sole survivor' to leave Iraq
The sole survivor policy was created during World War II
A US soldier is to return home from Iraq under a military proviso known as the "sole survivor" rule after losing both of his brothers in the war.
Jason Hubbard, 33, will be re-united with his family in Clovis, California after his brother Nathan, 21, died in a helicopter crash in Iraq on Wednesday.
His other sibling Jared Hubbard was killed by a roadside bomb in 2004.
The "sole survivor" policy, which has allowed Jason to leave Iraq, formed the premise of movie, Saving Private Ryan.
Nathan and Jason Hubbard had joined the army in 2005, shortly after their elder brother, Jared, died aged 22.
Jared died in Ramadi along with his best friend from school, Jeremiah Baro, and the two friends were buried next to each other in Clovis.
After his first son's death, his father Jeff Hubbard said: "I hope and pray it comes to a good solution because there's been a tremendous sacrifice.
"And it would just be awful if it didn't accomplish something great."
Meanwhile, Nathan died when a helicopter crashed during a night mission in the Tamim province that surrounds Kirkuk, an oil-rich city 180 miles (290 kilometres) north of Baghdad.
A military official said facts gathered indicated the crash was almost certainly due to a mechanical problem and not hostile fire, although the final cause remained under investigation.
'Distraught' family
Following Nathan's death, military officials ordered the return home of Jason, the eldest Hubbard sibling.
The BBC's David Willis in Clovis says Jared's death prompted his two other brothers to sign up for military service.
"The fact that you've gone through this before doesn't prepare you to suffer it all over again," said the family pastor Tim McLain Rolen.
Our correspondent says the family is distraught and adds that the funeral will take place next week.
Under the US military "sole survivor" policy, the last remaining sibling in a war zone can ask to return home when his brothers or sisters have been killed. The regulations are designed to spare parents losing all their children to war.
The US War Department introduced the policy after five siblings, the Sullivan brothers, died when their light cruiser the USS Juneau was sunk in World War II.
This rule formed the basis of Steven Spielberg's 1998 film Saving Private Ryan, where a team of soldiers are sent to Europe to look for a last remaining sibling amid heavy fighting in World War II.
Hopefully those fourteen sons and brothers were not lost due to deferred maintenance, on that Blackhawk.
ReplyDeleteBetter that they were lost to enemy fire, than that.
AP ran a piece about the geographic diversity of those lost in the crash. Sad story, but then every one of the 3,700 plus military personnel lost in Iraq makes for a sad story, for someone.
Wonder if Mr Maliki appreciates the sacrifice, or even cares, now that he is held in such contempt by US.
I hope what we are doing is not for the Iraqis.
ReplyDeleteWell slow hand, the White House web site tells the tale of Mr Bush's motivations, unless, of course one believes Mr Bush to be a liar and deciever, which I still do not believe to be true.
ReplyDeleteI still think that Mr Bush tells the truth, as he believes it to be:
"Our agenda ... is freedom and independence, security and prosperity for the Iraqi people."
...
"Our coalition has a clear goal, understood by all – to see the Iraqi people in charge of Iraq for the first time in generations. America's task in Iraq is not only to defeat an enemy, it is to give strength to a friend – a free, representative government that serves its people and fights on their behalf."
...
"We must continue to work together to achieve the objective, which is an Iraq which is free, whole and at peace, so people can realize their potential."
...
"The Iraqi people must understand that I will not lose my will; that we will help Iraq become free and peaceful; that we will stand with those who want a new Iraq after Saddam Hussein to develop, where mothers and dads can raise their children in a peaceful world, where business and shopkeepers can grow their businesses, where the education system works well, where people can get good health."
...
"And democracy will succeed in Iraq because our coalition is strong, because our resolve is firm, and because the people of Iraq desire and deserve to live in freedom."
...
"All Iraqis who take the side of freedom have taken the winning side. The goals of our coalition are the same as your goals – sovereignty for your country, dignity for your great culture, and for every Iraqi citizen, the opportunity for a better life."
He seems to be clear in his statements about US Goals iin Iraq. It is not about US, but about the Iraqi people, their aspirations, dreams and rights.
Unless he is a liar.
"One thing is certain: We will not impose a government on Iraq. We will help that nation build a government of, by, and for the Iraqi people."
ReplyDeleteGeorge W. Bush, 43rd President of the United States.
"We come to Iraq with respect for its citizens, for their great civilization and for the religious faiths they practice. We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people."
ReplyDeleteGeore W. Bush.
I certainly hope it's about the Iraqis because it sure. as. shit. isn't about us. And that oughta cover the bases right there.
ReplyDeleteWe are going to get nothing - nada - zip - zilch - squat - out of this.
War Art
ReplyDeletePeacekeeper calls Iraq a clusterfuck. I like the sound of the word. Maybe it really is nothing more than a clusterfuck. Whatever it is, it is the creation of George Bush. I can't think of another cluster fuck. the only thing that comes to mind is Little Big Horn. That had cluster written all over it. To be precise it was a Custerfuck. These Georges.
ReplyDeleteI am beginning to sound Bobolharbesque. That is not a bad thing.
Custer and Cluster, George & George
ReplyDeleteWhatever happened to Allen?
ReplyDeleteIf it were ONLY a clusterfuck, that'd be somewhat acceptable. A good thing gone wrong.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't rise to that level. It's a useless thing gone bad.
What's the word for that?
I am not sure of the word either but I recognize it when I see it. a useless thing gone bad.
ReplyDeleteIt's Kosovo. With body bags.
ReplyDeleteWell, that, too.
ReplyDeleteI recognize a post title in that.
ReplyDeleteHey, she's the only thing can get Romney elected, if he'd just put her on the ticket.
ReplyDeleteCall 'em the Celestial Candidates if you like, a winning dream team.
ReplyDeleteStraight-laced and un-laced.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI knew a guy that did a master's degree history thesis on Custer. Said he was a 'dumb shit', quote, unquote.
ReplyDeleteIf fact, I think he said, he was 'a vain dumb shit.'
zooom
ReplyDelete"I recognize a post title in that."
ReplyDeleteI only wish I could put my full name to it.
If you think this is Sappy then that's your fault.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletetrish said...
ReplyDelete"I recognize a post title in that."
I only wish I could put my full name to it.
I wish you could as well. Do it cloaked.
Write it here below the fold and I will set it as a Guest Post.
ReplyDeleteDon't let your virtues be used against you, bob.
ReplyDeleteIt'd take me a week.
ReplyDeleteI'm a ssssssslllllllloooooooooooowwwwwwww writer.
WASHINGTON (Associated Press) -- Sen. John Warner's suggestion that some troops leave Iraq by the end of the year has roiled the White House, with administration officials saying they've asked the influential Republican to clarify that he has not broken politically with President Bush.
ReplyDeleteBut Warner said Friday that he stands by his remarks and that he did not object to how his views have been characterized.
"I'm not going to issue any clarification," Warner, R-Va., said in an interview with The Associated Press. "I don't think any clarification is needed."
Grow up, America -- before it's too late
ReplyDeleteAnd American foreign policy?
Well, I'm not talking about the War to Make the World Safe for Democracy (World War I), the War to End Fascism (World War II) or even the Cold War, which ultimately brought down the Evil Empire, at least temporarily.
It pains me greatly to say it, but
the war to Buy Time For Iraqis to Reconcile (Iraq
-- not at all the same thing as the War to Smash Islamic Jihad, which we are regrettably not fighting --
is based on the childish, Flower-Powery premise, born of sophomoric, multiculti myths, that no real differences separate cultures, religions and peoples.
And besides, the theory goes, if such differences do exist, it is "mean-spirited" or "intolerant" or "racist" to point them out.
""We come to Iraq with respect for its citizens, for their great civilization and for the religious faiths they practice. We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people."
ReplyDeleteMr. Rogers
President of the Global Neighborhood.
outragedpatriots.com
ReplyDelete---
Illegal Aliens Fleeing Oklahoma by the Tens of Thousands BEFORE New Laws Take Effect, But 'They' Say "the American Citizens of Oklahoma Are Going to Suffer" (don't count on it!)
Most illegal immigrants are ending up in either Kansas or Arkansas. But, that may not be for long.
Arkansas is about to adopt a law like Oklahoma's.
Kansas is considering the same thing.
If we were to go back, in our I-net time machine, we'd see that the "warnings" about Mr Maliki and his cohort were flashing, in 2003. Then again in 2005 and 2006
ReplyDeleteMr Bremmer wrote that he warned Mr Bush, but that the President did not seem to understand. Asked in Mr Bremmer needed "more time". Seemingly not understanding the gist of Mr Bremmers report, that the structural problems, in Iraq, would not be remedied by time.
Even now, those supporting the President are blind to the structural challenges. More time, more sacrice, more US blood. That's all we need to spend the continue to tell US.
Fools and knaves, like the Vets for Freedom and their blather, more time. They tell US that the paratroopers of the 82nd are shortsighted in the pursuit of victory, while they have abandoned the fight, themselves. Or they'd not be veterans, aye?
Advocating further sacrifice, while they have abandoned the struggle, in the field. Contributions lobbied for and accepted, by the Vets for Freedom, I'm sure.
What a joke, if not for the sacrifice of mother Hubbard and the other mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers of the dead and maimed US soldiers and Marines.
All so that the Iraqi can ... raise their children in a peaceful world, where business and shopkeepers can grow their businesses, where the education system works well, where people can get good health."
Like to see where US citizens can go to "get good health".
Good old rufus would tell US Iraq is about the oil. If that is truely the case, we've failed, to date, on that front as well. Crude production is not up, exploration is not up and no new fields are coming on line.
Rhetoric is great, dreams are fanciful, but eventually, in all human endeavours,
Performance Counts.
Granted, quarterly performance quotas can be misleading, leading to short sightedness. But almost half a decade has passed on this phase of the Iraqi Adventure. A decade and a half if the Bush 41 Iraqi War is factored into the timeline.
Mr Cheney being the connecting thread through the entire storyline.
Look back to General P's statements of last winter, that there is, was no military solution that the US could impose upon Iraq.
Sure, we can control where we stand, in Iraq. We can evven stand in more locales, with more troops.
General P's newly written Manual does, as Hermano D-Day reminded US, says 500,000 troops, loyal and brave, would be required.
240,000 more troops than the US can send. We could utilize the Iraqi, but they are not loyal to the US vision, and their bravery ... that's reality based upon a perspective of their loyalties.
How much time and money has the US wasted, in the attempt to force "the people of Iraq desire and deserve to live in freedom"?
Because, as we all know, from Mr Bush that " ... America's task in Iraq is not only to defeat an enemy, it is to give strength to a friend – a free, representative government that serves its people and fights on their behalf."
Today we arm the Enemy and fight on their behalf.
The rise of the fantasists
ReplyDeleteFANTASIES ARE alluring. Peddling them can even get you elected. But the majority of Americans who reject fantasy as a basis for making real world decisions should take heed of Israel's example.
That example shows that despite the fantasists' fervent efforts to smother it, reality never goes away. Sooner or later, it mugs you. Sometimes, all it does is pick your pocket. But the longer you ignore it, the more dangerous it becomes.
I guess Bush really believes his own fantasies.
ReplyDelete...over reality.
Too bad for us.
Alternatively, the world he seeks is a positive goal for him, and a nightmare to us.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTrish:
ReplyDeleteTake the week, put it together and email it to via the link at the top of the page. Let us know in a thread that it's in the mail and we'll take care of the rest.
"We must continue to work together to achieve the objective, which is an Iraq which is free, whole and at peace, so people can realize their potential.""
ReplyDelete---
A mere 40 years ago, the only place you'd hear that kind of blather was at an EST Session in Marin County, California.
You thought Nation Building was bad.
ReplyDeleteWe're now in the Human Potential Business.
What happened to the Joe Biden reference?
ReplyDeleteThere I was, ready to chime in ...
Biden, Warner, sage old men, though Mr Biden is "just" 65.
It does seems as if old Joe Biden may have had the only plan that ever had a chance. But why to have bothered in the first place? It was all about WMD. I remember reading the fantasy dossier put out by Tony Blair thinking that if it were true, we had to do something. Who would have guessed that Iraq, like every other government program, would expand into a never ending spiral of broken dreams in the Neo-Aquarian Age?
ReplyDeleteSome of us are more concerned about spelling than other old buddy!
ReplyDeleteand then I drop an 's'.
ReplyDeleteSlurred spelling in a Bar, ahh ...
ReplyDeleteNow I need a copy editor ...
Thought that was just in "real" life, not in my avatar mode.
US Sikhs angry over turban plan
ReplyDeleteUS Sikh organisations have expressed anger over changes allowing airport security staff to "pat down" turbans.
Until now turbans have been searched or removed only to resolve an unexplained alarm from an airport metal detector.
But now security will have greater discretion to inspect turbans so that they can be manually checked for objects such as non-metallic weapons.
However Sikh groups have responded to the new measures by describing them as outrageous and discriminatory.
Sikh men wear turbans to cover their hair, which they leave uncut in accordance with their religion.
Organisations representing Sikhs have only recently completed a publicity campaign to explain the significance of the kirpan, or religious sword, to security officials.
The Transportation Security Administration insisted the new policy was necessary to counter the threat of improvised bombs and chemical weapons.
In Britain, the government said recently that private searches of turbans might be necessary as part of airport security.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/6963314.stm
After seeing John Travalta in a fat suit, in the newly released "Hair Spray", it is obvious that all passengers will need to be strip searched, for non-metallic improvised weapons.
ReplyDeleteTo think that only turbans could conceal such items flys in the face of realities.
Televangelist Critical of Islam Dumped
ReplyDeleteA Christian televangelist who harshly criticizes Islam and other religions said Friday that his late-night program is being pulled off the air because of pressure from a Muslim group.
Earlier this month, officials from the Council on American Islamic Relations wrote a letter to the TV station's owners asking for an investigation of the show it broadcasts, "Live Prayer with Bill Keller."
Anal and Vaginal exams, as well.
ReplyDeleteNon-metallic devices could be concealed in either orifice.
No modesty allowed, the travelling public must be secure from any and all threats to public safety.
Drop those trousers, NOW!!!
Wonder what a Turban Smells Like?
ReplyDeleteSouthPark Knows:
ReplyDelete"Smells like Ass!"
Why not just exclude PEOPLE wearing turbans?
ReplyDeleteThat way you would not have to discriminate against turbans.
(and the public wouldn't have to smell them)
Ceramic or plastic knives, taped to a leg, small of the back or even an arm.
ReplyDeleteThese threats must be addressed, post haste.
Reqire everyone to fly naked.
ReplyDeleteThat will end the threat of improvised weaponry.
Back to Nude Airlines.
ReplyDelete...and my long lost Island Princess.
Naked Air
ReplyDeleteCeramic knives, sharper and more deadly than a box cutter.
ReplyDeleteBox cutters, the only weapons required by Mohammed Atta and his crew, on 9-11-01.
Bladed weapons have killed more aorplane passengers than bombs, responsible for more US deaths by terrorists on the ground, as well.
That's the reality, we must guard against improvised bladed weapons.
Only nudity and body cavity checks will surfice, just like at Supermax.
F-15's to shoot down those that elude detection.
ReplyDeletePreferable to allowing Pilots to carry weapons.
Who knows what those madmen might do with all those lives in there hands?
(contrasted with when they are at the controls of the same plane full of people.)
ReplyDeleteISLAMABAD, Pakistan (Associated Press) -- Pakistan on Saturday successfully test-fired a new air-launched cruise missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead, the military said.
ReplyDeleteThe missile, named Hatf-8 or Ra'ad, has a range of 220 miles, an army statement said.
Now that Mr Hastert has his wealth enhancing freeway exit, there is no need to stay, in DC.
ReplyDeleteMr Bovak reports
Illinois Republicans say Former House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert has decided to resign from Congress Nov. 6 rather than finish out his term, even though that step could enhance Democratic prospects of picking up his seat.
Speculation is that Democratic Gov. Rod Blagojevich may set the special election date to coincide with the Feb. 5 presidential primary. The candidacy of Illinois' Sen. Barack Obama presumably would swell the number of Democratic voters.
But some Republicans believe Hastert's early departure could aid the candidacy of his probable chosen successor: Jim Oberweis, a wealthy businessman and unsuccessful aspirant for statewide office. Hastert is known to oppose State Sen. Chris Lauzen, who long has had his eye on the seat.
ReplyDeletetrish said...
If it were ONLY a clusterfuck, that'd be somewhat acceptable. A good thing gone wrong.
It doesn't rise to that level. It's a useless thing gone bad.
What's the word for that?
That there's a GoatFuck.
Never good from the start.
HYDERABAD, India (Associated Press) -- A pair of bombings tore through crowded public areas in the southern city of Hyderabad on Saturday night, killing 28 people and wounding dozens more, officials said.
ReplyDeleteThe blasts _ one in a park during a laser show, and the other in a crowded market area _ went off minutes apart, officials said.
Most of the 28 people killed were in the city's Kothi market, said K. Jana Reddy, home minister for the state of Andhra Pradesh.
"This is a terrorist act," Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy, the state's chief minister.
Television footage taken in the arena where the laser show was held showed large pools of blood and dead bodies lying between rows of seats punctured by shrapnel.
Police with flashlights and dogs searched under chairs looking for more explosive devices.
The State Department and the CIA had the Administration hosed. They turned what should have been 'a piece of cake' and turned it into 'a pie in the face'. If was President those two organizations would've been dismantled and disbanded by now.
ReplyDelete"But why to have bothered in the first place? It was all about WMD."
ReplyDeleteNo. It wasn't. WMD were simply given the emphasis as a matter of administrative agreement among the parties involved. (GB being one of them.) And the shit was so weak that the WH found itself having to leak the yellow cake business from the 2003 NIE. Then it was aluminum tubes. NIEs have never been the same since.
(Joe Wilson: Let it go, Doug. Please.)
There were far better targets WMD-wise. There were far better targets terrorism-wise. I had no visibility on the decision process and I'm not conspiracy-minded. I genuinely believe OIF was impulsive. When you stop to think that it never fit into a larger war-fighting strategy, when you stop to consider that during the ramp-up it was well known that Iraq would be a stand-alone, it's the sheer unconsidered nature of of it that stands out.
To put it another way: Iraq WAS the strategy. In and of itself.
Which is pretty much bald lunacy.
It didn't require lying about anything. It didn't require concealing true motives. It only required mass stupidity.
Which doesn't guarantee a loss. As my son likes to point out, you can win ill-chosen wars. Handily. (Think up to the al-Firdaus Square moment - brilliantly conceived and parlayed.) But strategically, there's no pay-off.
To LOSE an ill-chosen war, however. ...Well, it doesn't get any worse than that.
And it's a good thing I can't put my full name to anything because at the very least I'd have to stop saying "shit." And that's not very satisfying.
"The State Department and the CIA had the Administration hosed."
ReplyDeleteThen you have NO idea - not a clue - how weak they were compared to Rumsfeld's DOD. And who's authority exactly did the CPA fall under until the partial transfer of sovereignty in 2004 (by which time they didn't want it anymore anyway)?
A goatfuck.
ReplyDeleteI'll go with that.
What our country needs is a newer, updated, revitalized MOB This is getting pathetic. We don't produce, we don't work, we import everything, even our future problems, all we do is whine. Even the mob is going downhill in America.
ReplyDeleteNo, Trish. They tripped Rumsfeld and the DoD at every opportunity they got. And they succeeded.
ReplyDeleteThat should have read: ..If I was President..
Ralph Peters Says It's Wrong To Quit Now
ReplyDeleteTrish,
ReplyDeleteYou had two trained Iraqi armies in Iraq, already prior to the invasion. What was the point wasting time and resources on the Iranians?
Keeping things in Perspective It always irritates me when people say we descended from the apes, though it is true we often act even worse than any ape could hope for. We split off, long, long ago, and have ascended up to where we are now, the compassionate, thoughtfull, sane, mystic, hairless, nuclear armed creatures the Lord intended all along.
ReplyDeleteThat's a mighty fine branch the Lord has us climbing. We better grow wings, and soon.
ReplyDeleteMy wife is watching "This Old House" and complaining about our roof, and wondering how many of the hispanic carpenters on the show are illegals.
ReplyDeleteEsta Casa Vieja
Retired NASA astronomer Steve Maran said of the discovery: "This is incredibly important for something where there is nothing to it."
ReplyDeleteHole in the Universe
NDEs in the News An IANDS Member Service
ReplyDelete1 – On Friday, a National Public Radio (NPR) program in the United States called OnPoint, broadcast an excellent show titled “What Happens When We Die.” NDE researcher Dr. Sam Parnia from Britain described an ongoing study in English hospitals which might prove that consciousness can continue even while a patient is clinically dead. A few NDErs, both a guest on the show and listeners calling in, described how they were able to clearly observe attempts to resuscitate their bodies from above, as well as other aspects of their NDEs. This program was one of the most informative and comprehensive broadcasts about NDEs and the research into the nature of consciousness.
To listen to the broadcast, go to the NPR website at http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2007/08/20070824_b_main.asp and click just above the title of the show "What Happens When We Die" where it says Listen. We urge you to forward this link to your friends and acquaintances since it represents cutting-edge science in near-death research.
2 – In the August 24th edition of the well-known scientific journal Science two teams of researchers claim to have created in a laboratory setting some aspects of out-of-body experiences (OBEs). This fascinating research is already getting heavy media attention. Two examples that have just come to our attention today are at:
http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/feeds/hscout/2007/08/23/hscout607615.html
http://www.topix.net/content/trb/2007/08/out-of-body-experiences-simulated
As more media covers this, and possibly sensationalize it, you might want to keep a few things in mind. Both of these studies used computer based virtual reality technology to create the illusion of perceiving one's own body from another perspective. The investigators created this illusion by tricking the body’s sensory system. As the lead researcher of one of the studies, Dr. Olaf Blanke, a neurologist at the Ecole Federal Polytechnic of Lausanne, stated "I think we've got some aspects of an out-of-body experience, but not the entire thing. We can, in a sense, trick people."
People who actually have had an OBE often claim to have seen their real body, and sometimes observed other people in the vicinity engaged in activities that are independently verified. To these experiencers, these were not illusions but actual events.
A significant percentage of NDEs contain the element of an out-of-body experience. Multiple anecdotal accounts as well as numerous research studies have found that what the NDEr sees and/or hears during the OBE part of an NDE can be accurate, and not an illusion. Many out-of-body experiences, especially those associated with NDEs when the sensory organs and the brain are not functioning, remain medically inexplicable.
For more details on the ongoing research into OBEs:
- The Winter, 2006 edition of the Journal of Near-Death Studies, published by IANDS (Volume 25, Number 2), has an excellent article by Drs. Janice Holden, Jeffrey Long and Jason MacLurg titled "Out-of-Body Experiences: All in the Brain?" This paper deals with research conducted in 2002 that claimed to induce an OBE by electrically stimulating parts of the brain. You can obtain a copy of this issue at http://www.iands.org/shoppingcart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_11&products_id=772
- A DVD of Dr. Janice Holden's presentation at the 2006 IANDS conference at the University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston titled "Veridical Perception in NDEs" reviews decades of research into OBEs. It is one of the best summaries of developments in this field of research. You can order the DVD at http://www.iands.org/shoppingcart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=48_49&products_id=688 (IANDS members receive a 33% discount).
A member service of the International Association for Near-Death Studies (www.iands.org).
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I'm goin' to the antique car show in town. Stay well.
Dear Mr. Doug:
ReplyDeleteI e-mailed that TV station to ask why the people who killed 3000 of us on September 11th are allowed to dictate what is on our TV stations. Thank you for bringing up about Mr. Keller. I thought people in Central Florida had more courage than to give in to islamo-fascist bullies.
"They tripped Rumsfeld..."
ReplyDeleteWhat, when he wasn't looking?
"and the DoD at every opportunity they got. And they succeeded."
I thought it was the taqqiya generals that succeeded.
Why would you do away with DOS and CIA?
Maybe Maureen Dowd had it right when she said it was all about daddy.
ReplyDeleteThat is the conclusion that looks like an ever more accurate assessment of "why".
ReplyDeleteA "Family Feud"
Which'd be kinda funny were speculation to the effect that daddy was never for it was true.
ReplyDeleteThat makes the most sense of all. Wasn't there a lot of clamor about daddy Bush being a little wimpish for not going the distance to get Saddam? Georgie Boy wanted to bag him and drag him around like a proud kitty with a mouse.
ReplyDelete"Why would you do away with DOS and CIA?"
ReplyDeleteWhy not?
I thought it was the taqqiya generals that succeeded.
ReplyDeleteI take you still agree with that taqqiyqa general that was arming and training the Iranians to the tune of a half a trillion dollars, 4 years wasted, and 3000 American soldiers dead.
Oh, you've got that whole "unfinished business" thing and that surely was a part of the impulse. One bene of that was that Saddam was pre-Hitlerized. You didn't have to gin it up because that had been done more than a decade earlier. Were we NOT in the mood to bag some high-profile asshole potentate? You had your ethnic sob story (two in fact). Your list-as-long-as-my-arm UNSC violations. Your 98 Congressional legislation. I mean, hell, that war almost sold itself. In the US.
ReplyDeleteNo, mat. I find your use of term offensive. I also find it extraordinary that you somehow believe that any general - pick one, any one - executes his own policy.
ReplyDeleteSurely, you have some idea of the concrete benefits of abolishing those two organizations. Something more substantial than "why not?"
When's the Cuba NIE come out?
ReplyDeleteWe may as a nation have occasion to start thinking a little bit more about our own back yard. (As has been encouraged here from time to time.) And won't that be refreshing?
Cuba, there's the ticket.
ReplyDeleteThe Army there is large and in charge. As Fidel's illness and lack of participation has shown, Cuba, it's not a one man band.
The Russian and Venezuelan influences are strong, while the US's remains almost nonexistent. An expat community in Florida that is now two or three generations away from the "Homeland".
Not likely to return, if given the opportunity, because for them, it would not be a "return" but an flight from their birth place.
A cultural experience that has never occurred in the history of the United States, nor is it likely to any time soon.
Even those in the United States, illegally do not want to leave. Why would those with US passports or legal residency?
No, mat. I find your use of term offensive. I also find it extraordinary that you somehow believe that any general - pick one, any one - executes his own policy.
ReplyDeleteHe was just any General.
"Surely, you have some idea of the concrete benefits of abolishing those two organizations. Something more substantial than "why not?"
I do.
It will be interesting to see if there is any sign of any real sadness in Cuba when Fidel passes. Other than the state sponsored events. It's hard to say what most of them think of their system. Most have been born into it , not ever experiencing anything else. They're unlikely to overthrow the army by themselves, I'd think. It's sad, Cuba.
ReplyDeletetrish wrote:
ReplyDelete"I mean, hell, that war almost sold itself. In the US. "
"In the US" being the operative and interesting part. It was "sold itself" only in the US and that is something americans should examine very closely and in detail. How is it that invading and occupying a foreign country, waging aggressive war, essentially committing a criminal act of war by invading and occupying another country when there was no imminent threat could "sell itself" in a country so "free", so "self aware", so "democratic", a "shining beacon on a hill", that it was so readily accepted by the populace? The fact that such actions could be supported and accepted by one of the greatest nations on earth is a puzzle that will be discussed by historians (and psychologists and philosophers) for a long time to come.
goatfuck - now there's a miltary term worth coining....
"Cuba, there's the ticket.
ReplyDeleteThe Army there is large and in charge. As Fidel's illness and lack of participation has shown, Cuba, it's not a one man band."
Well, it never is.
And wouldn't we at least like to be in on the ground floor when their shit starts falling apart post-Fidel?
I think so.
The Miami ex-pats, they've gotta be persuaded they can help.
You would think that things would start falling apart post Castro but that hinges upon the "one man band" notion. I've been struck by the lack of change with Castro's illness and the rise of his brother.
ReplyDelete...there seems to be a certain complicity between the governed and the govenors...
ReplyDeleteThe complicity of a cocked gun.
ReplyDeleteTrish,
ReplyDeletePut a good word for Ash. Birds of a feather fly together.
You would think that things would start falling apart post Castro but that hinges upon the "one man band" notion.
ReplyDelete- ash
No, just the long-lived center of gravity.
well Bobal, there is the simplistic view of the thing where the poor populace is under the thumb of the dictator and all we need do is remove the oppresive hand of the dictator and the noble people will rise, be free, and allies of the US. Unfortunately our experience in Iraq has suggested that that model is somewhat lacking.
ReplyDeleteMats,
I'm awaiting your brilliant analysis of the US functioning without the DOS and CIA with bated breath. Is it some form of dictatorship you are advocating?
"goatfuck - now there's a miltary term worth coining...."
ReplyDeleteGoatfest for the polite.
What we DON'T want, ash, is a lot of grievance-nursing Cubans on the loose.
ReplyDeleteTrish,
ReplyDeleteBut it is the power of the center of gravity that gives rise to the one man band. Big gravitational pull vested in one man and that center will shift upon his removal but if that center is quite distributed then his removal matters....not so much. That is what has me interested in the changes in Cuba so far. Fidel is pretty well out of it but the apparatus of state grinds on. In North Korea Kim's dad passed and the son donned the mantle. We kill him....so what? Romania has always been a case study that intrigues me...
aye "grievance-nursing Cubans" are a problem and Florida is rife with 'em, provoked and prodded by our gov.
ReplyDeleteaye "grievance-nursing Cubans" are a problem and Florida is rife with 'em, provoked and prodded by our gov.
ReplyDelete- ash
Well, I was thinking in this instance of the OTHER Cubans. Those that didn't leave.
"Big gravitational pull vested in one man and that center will shift upon his removal but if that center is quite distributed then his removal matters....not so much."
Wanna bet which one?
You know, I feel liberated from Iraq already.
Wish it were so, unfortunately, there is the party, and the army.
ReplyDeleteHow does the Cuban medical care system compare,Ash, in your opinion, with the Canadian?
I'd like to see the Cuban people freed up, which I doubt they can do by themselves. On the other hand, I'm an equal opportunity excluder, and they are not causing us much trouble at the moment.
LOL on the liberated from Iraq crack.
ReplyDeleteI've been struck by the lack of Cubans rising up in rebellion in Cuba so far. Maybe when Fidel finally dies they'll rise up but I doubt it.
I remember when my Family visited Cuba 20 some odd years ago. I was not included in the trip but my Dad, being true red blooded american played tons of baseball as a youth. He was quite good and had a chance to go pro but figured what chance did a knuckle baller have for a decent career in pro ball? Anyway, he went to Cuba for vacation and bonded with the locals by playing baseball. He then admitted that he was an
American and not truly a Canadian. Things changed big time. He was hurt and puzzled and it didn't square with his 'liberal ivory tower' mentality (he's a professor) - how could things change from such collegiallity to hostility simply on nationality? It did and he, and they, were just 'folks'.
Bobal,
ReplyDeleteI don't really know how the Cuban system compares to Canadian health system. I do understand that Mike Moore did not depict the problem of wait times in Canada sufficiently. There is a triage system in place and the level of critical necessity determines you place in line. Medical care does require rationing, how it is rationed is the issue.
"I'd like to see the Cuban people freed up, which I doubt they can do by themselves."
ReplyDeleteWell, that's who they've got. Themselves. I'm not looking for sudden cataclysm, just a long, spontaneous, organic process. And remember what Rumsfeld said: Freedom's messy. Everywhere. And it can pose challenges for us. It will with Cuba.
There always is the party. There always is the army. There always is much, much more than the one man band.
He went to Cuba for vacation.
ReplyDeleteWas he a Canadian passport holder?
I may be wrong, but Cuba doesn't seem to be a country that is giving anyone much trouble with the drug trade. Cuba They have had a reputation as being tough on users, dealers. On the other hand, one wouldn't want to openly pursue the gay life-style there, I'd think. And it's not a paradise of racial harmony, either. I wish them well.
ReplyDeleteMy Senator, Craig, has argued for ending the embargo.
Bob,
ReplyDeleteCanadian Health Care:
Two patients limp into two different Canadian medical clinics with the same complaint. Both have trouble walking and appear to require a hip replacement. The first patient is examined within the hour, is x-ray'd the same day and has a time booked for surgery the following week.
The second sees the family doctor after waiting a week for an appointment, then waits eighteen weeks to see a specialist, then gets an x-ray, which isn't reviewed for another month and finally has his surgery scheduled for a year from then.
Why the different treatment for the two patients?
The first is a Golden Retriever; --------- the second is a Senior Citizen.
Hugo will fund what ever the spread the Cuban Army needs and whom ever the replacement is waiting in the wings.
ReplyDeleteThe Cuban people, the are a tad over 11 million of them, are going to go with the flow, as they have since 1959.
Why would they not?
Things are so good in Salvador?
Mat :) I've heard reports along that line myself.
ReplyDeleteI can't think of a more wonderful way to pass a day than to be forced to spend seven or eight hours standing in a hot square listening to Fidel blather on and on and on. :(
At the time he didn't hold a Canadian passport but he was able to visit because the trip was organized and origininated in Canada and it occurred only between Canada and Cuba.
ReplyDelete"Hugo will fund what ever the spread the Cuban Army needs and whom ever the replacement is waiting in the wings."
ReplyDeleteSure he will. It's in his interest to do so. That doesn't mean the army and attendant apparatus can keep the country on an even keel.
Why wouldn't they continue to go with the flow? Because the flow will experience a series of disruptions.
(Dammit, Rat, you came to dampen my fledgling optimism in the human creature. If you aren't paid to do that, you oughta be.)
of course in young Matty's little story he failed to mention that if the dogs owner didn't belly up with the cash the dog would go untreated.
ReplyDelete"At the time he didn't hold a Canadian passport but he was able to visit because the trip was organized and origininated in Canada and it occurred only between Canada and Cuba."
ReplyDeleteIf. you. say. so.
welp, it was about 20 years ago and my pop did not carry a Canadian passport and he did visit Cuba on a winter holiday from Canada. In any case, his story of the reception he received by the Cubans on the baseball diamond rings true. The preaching of an authoritarian government does have an effect upon the common man. Heck, the preaching of a democratic government even in the world of a 'free press' does also have an effect. As evidence I present the media acquiescence in the run up to the Iraq invasion.
ReplyDeletep.s. simply because the US government declares something is illegal does not mean other governments accept it.
ReplyDeleteI thought so! No free medical treatment for animals!
ReplyDeleteI knew a guy in high school that went to law school, then tried to set up an office here, no clients, so out of desperation he got himself hired by the U.S. Justice Department. This was right at the time Castro emptied the jails and such and set them on the high seas. My friends first job at the Justice Department was interviewing these good folk(and some were good folk)--'Well, what were you in prison for?' 'Murder' 'Did you do it?" 'Yes' He said they were quite open about how they ended up in prison, and they could just as well have said 'political' and been put in a different category. It was quite amazing he said, they were right up front....'yes, I raped her'.
It's an odd world. Just remember "They never caught a fish that didn't open its mouth"
medical treatment isn't free you just pay for it through your taxes - sort of like insurance except you can't opt out.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you there Ash. The Cubans had some reason long ago, but not now. It's true, people get a line preached in their ear all their life and it has a real effect. Therefore we should always boost free speech and a free press, and nowdays the internet.
ReplyDeleteDeuce!
ReplyDeleteIt used to be in my Kanukistani neighborhood not so long ago that we'd get the trash collected twice a week. Now, trash collection is reduced to twice a month. But even if it's collected twice a month, it's still collected, and hauled out to the garbage dump. G'nite.
Yeah, I know. Just jesting. I'm paying for mine, and for some others as well. And always will, even with Hillary.
ReplyDelete"Heck, the preaching of a democratic government even in the world of a 'free press' does also have an effect. As evidence I present the media acquiescence in the run up to the Iraq invasion."
ReplyDelete---
The incessant drumbeat of the "right wing" spin machine has an effect.
As evidence I present the all the dead-enders that continue to refer to Wuss Bush as an
"Indefatigable Wartime leader"
Obsessed, he is, just like Bubba was with Hussein Obama.
...well at least after he's done daydreaming about the ROP, Open Borders, Free Trade, and World Peace, wherein all members of the human family can maximize their potential, regardless of which of the many great cultures they are a product of.
"The preaching of an authoritarian government does have an effect upon the common man."
ReplyDeleteYes. It does.
Ash, I'm not a believer in a monolithic foreign policy (good luck with that anyway) so there's no point in getting prickly about it.
I was just curious as to how he went.
no problem trish. I play squash with one of the first guys to be prosecuted under Helms Burton. He wears it like a badge of honor.
ReplyDelete"It was quite amazing he said, they were right up front....'yes, I raped her'"
ReplyDelete---
Your friend working for the feds then set up these folks with jobs as conselors for abused women in Federal Rape Crisis Centers.
Counseling is a RIGHT, an obligation even, not a privilege.
"My Senator, Craig, has argued for ending the embargo."
ReplyDeleteGood.
counselors
ReplyDeleteThe first crack in the armor,
ReplyDelete"Craig"
check
'We'll entice them to our way of life with products made in Idaho'--that's his line, Trish.
ReplyDelete"The first is a Golden Retriever;"
ReplyDelete---
Jeeze!
EVERYBODY knows Golden Retrievers are very prone to hip problems!
Damn!
YOU'RE the Doctor!
now see if you can pry the name of her representative, AlBob.
ReplyDeleteOr do you only have 1?!
Do they make soap in Idaho, bob?
ReplyDeleteI think they need soap.
Crap!
ReplyDeleteShe was just quoting AlBob!
My Bad.
Go back to Start.
So, how are things up in your neck of the woods, Trish?
ReplyDelete"I do understand that Mike Moore did not depict the problem of wait times in Canada sufficiently."
ReplyDelete---
My wife just told me a story about talking to someone who had seen "Sicko"
---
Their comment:
"Makes you wish you weren't an American!"
---
Mission Accomplished!
Maximum Leader Moore!
Wet, Doug.
ReplyDelete"Medical care does require rationing, how it is rationed is the issue."
ReplyDelete---
Old, very young, infirm, differently abled = BAD
Young, beautiful, healthy, = GOOD!
DNA Screening to come in the ever brighter future.
Yeah, them systems coming up from the Gulf can get heavy!
ReplyDeleteBut, of course, if you get a chill, let me no.
ReplyDelete...all I ever hear from my Wife:
CHILL!
"how could things change from such collegiallity to hostility simply on nationality? It did and he, and they, were just 'folks'"
ReplyDeleteNo,
THEY were commie Stooges.
All the ones I've met here have been big free marketeers.
"aye "grievance-nursing Cubans" are a problem and Florida is rife with 'em, provoked and prodded by our gov."
ReplyDelete---
You run into that often Trish?
Also, I asked before, but you missed it (or did not want to disclose)
What have you got against the Kurds?
"the poor populace is under the thumb of the dictator and all we need do is remove the oppresive hand of the dictator and the noble people will rise, be free, and allies of the US. "
ReplyDelete---
AND Maximize their human potential and become Warm Fuzziness Personified, or Deified.
PBUH
Absolutely nothing. Splendid people.
ReplyDeleteI'M not going to adopt them.
I leave that generously to the Israelis.
"The Miami ex-pats, they've gotta be persuaded they can help."
ReplyDelete---
Before we have only 3rd Generation Sheeple.
I thot you bad-mouthed them now and then.
ReplyDeleteYeah, well. I've had my fill of adopt-a-problem for awhile.
ReplyDelete"How could feckless non-War "sell itself "when there was no imminent threat could in a country so "free", so "self aware", so "democratic", a "shining beacon on a hill", that it was so readily accepted by the populace? The fact that such actions could be supported and accepted by one of the greatest nations on earth is a puzzle that will be discussed by historians (and psychologists and philosophers) for a long time to come."
ReplyDelete---
Only the ignorant and academics could be puzzled:
People were scared shitless by 9-11, Frum was a Hell of a Speechwriter, and Bush performed flawlessly as the Televangelist leader, motivating us, and delivering us from the Axel of Evil.
PBUH
ReplyDeleteLady Hawk:
ReplyDeleteThank you,
and Thank You!
Bobal,
ReplyDeleteSat Aug 25, 03:42:00 PM EDT
Came across this at Borders last time I was in Town:
90 Minutes in Heaven
---
What happens when the driver's side of your Ford Escort is driven over by a Semi, AND you are a preacher, AND, an ex-Vietnam Medic turned preacher has gone to the same meeting you did in another town.
...Damn!
I knew I'd pay for all my sinful thots.
Now I know exactly HOW!
Ain't gonna be good.
Wo is me!
They covered the car with a tarp, and went about checking out the living, and waiting for the Coroner for NINETY MINUTES before the next preacher came along and begged to see him.
ReplyDelete("I'll lay down in the road if you don't look at him, he yelled to the third paramedic, after 2 had refused, after Don "came back to life" as he was praying with him")
And Thank You, as well.
ReplyDeleteThere's a lot of sappy stuff out there now on near-death experiences. Good way to make a buck, if you got the ability to tell a tale. Kind of a cottage industry now.
On the other hand, there is a lot of amazingly good books, with a lot of intricate arguments back and forth about what might be going on. Go to IANDS for a bibliography. After one has read into it for awhile, I think you will start to see connections to all sorts of stuff in the world's literature and poetry that you might not have sparked to before. In places you might not expect too. The Mormons have been collecting this kind of thing from the beginnings of their church life. It is where they get their other worldly descriptions from. It also will tend to cheer you up, if you are down. Even a word for it, bibliotherapy.
All is retained, they say.
And after all, Plato did tell that tale of the soldier Er. No lightweight he, that Plato.
These are all good, though I wouldn't waste much time on Betty Eadie.
ReplyDeleteDid any of them have their Escort driven over by a Semi?
ReplyDeleteI don't think he faked that part, at least!
ReplyDeleteBeing that his parts were substantially re-arranged.
"Complete Idiot's Guide to the Near-Death Experience."
ReplyDelete---
Thans for the inspiration:
My next book:
"The Complete Idiot and Hopeless Sinner's Guide to completing your miserable trip in the way to which you have become accustomed."
"thanks"
ReplyDeletePeace be upon you, Doug!
ReplyDeletesigned, an unprofitable servant...
Does that mean you aren't one of W's Bigtime Donors,
ReplyDeletea "Stagehand" or whatever they are called?
Or are you being cute?
ReplyDeleteOld Unprophetable One?
Not cute, in the nature of an intersessionary prayer...:)
ReplyDeletea stagehand, a wrangler maybe?..nah