If the United States were a corporation, the board of directors would ask Bush for his resignation or they would fire him. George Bush bet his administration on the gamble in Iraq. He chose a risky strategy over the advise of allies, friends, enemies and advisors. The war has turned out to be a strategic error of the first magnitude. The hope was right but the tactics were wrong. By all indications the enemies and competitors of the US have been strengthened and emboldened. Today Iran is calling to meet with Syria and Iraq. The Bush Administration has lost the faith of most of the natural allies of The United States. A world with diminished respect for the US is a much more dangerous place.The President has failed in the one way that matters most. He has failed to lead. He has not lost support from his enemies. He never had that. Worse, he lost the faith and respect of his friends and supporters. His defenders have been worn down with false hopes for a revival of spirit and leadership. It is not there. The tenure of the office of the President is filled by a man that too few believe in and too many no longer respect. His opinions are mocked. Leadership ceases to be effective when a leader becomes a thing of derision. Few politicians or world leaders will throw their weight and prestige into a project with George Bush unless they have no other choice.
Expediency will rule over principal. Nothing short of a disaster will cause people to renew their circle around the President, in fact the only circle around him are the predators who sense a weakened and damaged office. A weakened man can be more dangerous because his motivations and actions can be suspect. Clinton experienced it during the Lewinski affair, when he attacked the "aspirin factory". Times are more dangerous now and Clinton on his worse days had passionate partisan defenders. Bush has few. Fewer would be unhappy to see him go, if go he must.
Bush resigning would put the Presidency in the hands of an even less popular and respected man, Vice President Cheney. Cheney would have to resign first. Congress would have to select a new Vice President with the knowledge that Bush would step down. Bush would have to follow the selection of the new VP with his own resignation.
I ask you. Would the country be best served with Bush resigning? Would things be worse? Would America be strengthened or weakened by that dramatic change? How would you advise GWB if he asked your opinion?
Not a chance in the World. More likely habu's scenario would play out and we'd nuke Tehran, before Mr Bush hung up his gloves, prematurely.
ReplyDeleteWho'd be cast in the part of Goldwater with Mr Bush in the Nixon role?
Not a snowballs chance in hell
Though his brother will soon be unemployeed.
2164th wrote:
ReplyDeleteThe war has turned out to be a strategic error of the first magnitude.
Only two months ago, when I said that on Belmont Club I got mocking replies like this one from whats-her-face: "I personally like how our troops are dying for nothing, that Iraq is VietNam redux." Oh well, leave no sleeping dog unturned, that's spilled milk under the bridge, etc. But I'd like to know exactly what was the trigger for this vast sea-change in the right-wing blogosphere, was it the election, Rumsfeld resigning, Rumsfeld resigning after the election, what?
No, not shocked at all that what was expected to occur, did.
ReplyDeleteMr Bremmer was incountry and saw the preodained outcome. Many commented upon it at the time. Elctions were like the cart before the horse, some said. We were shouted down.
Democracy was a weapon to be wielded. I signed on to give it a go. But Mr Yon's first telling of LTC Kuriilia's "Catch and Release" saga showed me the light.
When Mr Bush had the Public, he should have kept rolling. Now he's got a year to save his Party and perhaps the Nation.
Ole' rufus would compromise principles to save the GOP majority, advised me and all of US to do so, it is a shame that Republican Congressmen like Mr Kolbe and Senators like Lincoln Chafee do not share the same loyalty to either Mr Bush nor the GOP. These two long time Standard bearers.
Wonder if Mr Bush will compromise on Principle to save his reputation and the Nation.
Or does he listen to Mr Lincoln?
Where are the Grant, Sherman and Sheridan of the Bush Administration?
ReplyDeleteWe've been saddled with General McClellan clones since the July of '03.
Or does Rumsfeld's axing cover all the Uniformed players responsibilities?
Does anyone seriously believe that had Bush known what he knows now, he would have gone into Iraq or at least gone in the way we did? He is not crazy.
ReplyDeleteAssume Bush was not POTUS but a captain on a warship and ran it aground, a couple of times, what would the Navy do?
I recall when Lt. Gen. David Petraeus left Iraq. He had been in charge of training the Iraqi troops, early on.
ReplyDeleteWay back in June of '04 he said
"...Separately, Petraeus is pushing to get body armor and good weapons to the Iraqis. Money is not an issue: a billion dollars has already been spent on Iraqi forces, and an additional $2.4 billion is in the pipeline for the rest of the year. In just the last week, 13,500 Gluck pistols, 850,000 rounds of ammunition, 900 vehicles, 50,000 flak vests and 60,000 Kevlar helmets were delivered. "It's really flowing in now," Petraeus said.
Anyway, the General was leaving and doug asked, "Why?, when the Iraqi were just supposed to be taking over?" My gleeful answer, "He's done such a good job he can leave them to handle it on their own".
Anyway from Jun of '04 makes for interesting reading, now that it's almost December '06 and time to renew that Authorization of Occupation with the Iraqi and the UN.
There's an old axiom in the entertainment business...You get the audience to buy the premise and they'll by the entire bit.
ReplyDeleteThis thread, fraught with misrepresentations in it's premise then turns to the innocents of the rhetorical device of asking a few simple questions.
Not your best work 2164, not even close.
The main lie that W is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of WMD's. From this "lie" two subsidiary lies emerged. That an "imminent" possibility that Sadam would use them or sell them to terrorists who would.
Yet even stipulating-- which I do only for the sake of argument - that no weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq in the perios leading up to the invasion, it defies all reason to think that Bush was lying when he asserted what he did. To lie means to say something one knows to be false. But it is as close to certainty that we can get that Bush believed in the truth of what he was saying about WMD's in Iraq.
How indeed could it have been otherwise? George Tenet, his own CIA director assured him that the case was "a slam dunk". In making his statement Tenet had the backing of ALL FIFTEEN AGENCIES involved in gathering intelligence for the United States.
In the National Intelligence Estimate of 2002 where their collective views were summarized,one of the conclusions offered with"high confidence" was that,
"Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its Chemical,biological,nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.
The intelligence agencies of Britian,Germany,Russia,China,Israel and even France ALL AGREED WITH THIS JUDGEMENT.
So did the British,French, and Germans, all of whom signed on in advance to Secretary of State Powells UN presentation of the satllite photos also lie not only in their intelligence but in their signing off on the Powell presentation? The gravity of the situation leads one to believe it would have taken the most coordinated lie in world histroy to believe that. the consensus of the intelligence communities was overwhelming.
Kenneth Pollack who served in the Clinton NSC has written that in the spring of 2002 he participated in a Washington meeting about Iraq WMD. "Those present included nearly twenty former inspectors from the UNSCOM.
One of the senior members asked those assemble if any doubted that Iraq was operating a secret centifuge plant. NO ONE DID. Three othe attendees added that they believed he was also operating a calutron plant( a facility for separating uranium isotopes)
Now let's look at Clinton's statement in 1998.
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force our purpose is clear. WE WANT TO SERIOUSLY DIMINISH THE THREAT POSED BY IRAQ'S WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION"
Mad Albright also in 1998 said," Iraq is a long way from the USA but what happens there matters a great deal. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use NBC weapons against us and our allies is THE GREATEST SECURITY THREAT WE FACE"
Sandy Berger NSC Adviser to Clinton made the flat out assertion,"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again,as he has ten times since 1983"
Nancy Pelosi," Saddam Hussein has been engagedd in the development of WMD TECHNOLOGY WHICH IS A THREAT TO COUNTRIES IN THE REGION AND HE HAS MADE A MOCKERY OF THE WEAPONS INSPECTIONS"
Hillary
Tom Daschle
Carl Levin
John Kerry
Jay Rockefeller
All of the above made similar statements. WMD's WMD'S WMD'S.
So, too, The Washington Post greeted he inauguration of GW Bush in january 2001 with the admonition that:
" Of all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, NONE, is more dangerous, or more URGENT, than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unravelling of a decade's efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding it's WMD's. That leaves president Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf where intelligence photos show the reconstruction of facotries long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons.
Then we had 9-11 and the imaginary became reality and the world changed, the temo changed and the threat had long since been identified.
It is absurd to even posit the questions posed in this thread.
( I have more research but I'll let the wobbly digest this portion of the meal first.)
I hope Bush surprises me with a "Hail Mary" pass, a successful on-side kick, sacking the opposing quarterback and a 55 yard field goal in the last three minutes. I just would not bet on it.
ReplyDeleteGreat plan, not enough time, the General said four to six months, not twelve to eighteen. They will not get that long from the Politicos.
ReplyDeleteThe GOP blood would be all in the water, by then.
The best that can be hoped for, a quick surge, hit the high points, and cut a "long and small" alternative, with a lot of troopers pulling out by November '07, as requested by Mr Maliki when he took the job of Prime Minister of Iraq.
tranzizoroaste said...
ReplyDeleteWoman,
Whats-her-face doesn't think yours is so pretty, anymore.
Have we met? I don't think so. And I don't think I would want to meet a Tranz who was so double-minded that his or her opinion of someone's appearance shifted depending on what that person wrote on a blog.
All good points Habu, some of your better work for sure, but it is besides the point. Short of a win, GWB has missed his chance. How is he going to get the win? Whit's post on Kagan is compelling. It sounds like a strategy and a plan, but will it work? Will it get support?
ReplyDeleteHe has lost the support of Congress, public opinion and most of his allies.
Like it or not, we are in a civil war in Iraq. I do not know which side I want to win, do you?
habu wants to kill 'em all and let allah sort them out.
ReplyDeleteWhile there could be benefits to that Program, it's not going to Play.
The Network President canceled it, maybe they'll make a pay-for-view out of the concept by reeditting the pilot.
Should FDR have Resigned after Eisenhower got his ass kicked in N. Africa?
ReplyDelete"No, the axis declared war on the US. It was one battle in a war that had to be won. The US has not lost any battles in Iraq. The US is not fighting a war to win."
Should Truman have Resigned after Chosen Reservoir?
"Truman was not afraid to hold people responsible for failure but the stalemate in Korea resulted in a situtation that has consequences to this date."
Should Kennedy have resigned after Bay of Pigs?
" Kennedy was inept, the "Bay of pigs" was a result ofr him having lost his nerve and betraying fighting men committed to battle. Shameful. The Cuban Missile crisis was a result of Kruschev thinking Kennedy was weak based on 'The Bay of Pigs".
Should Lincoln have resigned after Bull Run?
" Lincoln resigning would have resulted in the separation of the United States. When he committed his forces to war, he did not restrain them to accomodate the Governors of the states where the Union Army fought."
2164th wrote:
ReplyDeleteLike it or not, we are in a civil war in Iraq. I do not know which side I want to win, do you?
Support a Kurdish state to avenge the 4th ID/Turkey fiasco and tweak the ayatollahs in Iran. Support the Shi'ites to avenge everything al-Qaeda in Iraq has done to kill or maim Americans. Set up Palestinian style Sunni refugee camps in the western desert, one on the border of Syria and another one on the border of Saudi Arabia, then pull all US forces back to their superbases on the frontier with Iran.
whit said:
ReplyDeleteI would pull just about everybody out of Europe and South Korea. The only personnel left in Europe would be those in support of Iraq and Afghanistan.
That is what they will have to do if they choose "Go Big". Either that, or start up Rangel's draft.
allen said...
ReplyDeleteJust saw Whore-Hay on Fox in his so called Vietnamese garb. Where were the black pajamas?
6:25 PM, November 20, 2006
allen said...
The only time I saw Vietnamese in such get-ups was in Hue. This was the dress perferred by the Vietnamese-French girls there. Does that say something? Those Vietnamese are such kidders.
I find myself agreeing with most of what everyone is saying except taking a nap. I can get by on very little sleep. I usually only require a nap after having done something to further world peace.
ReplyDeleteYou all argue until the cows come home but "allen said...
ReplyDeleteUnless the Iranians do something incredibly stupid, this administration has thrown in the towel. We will have to have the debate about Iran after the '08 elections. How long is that?"
Bush's "blue dress" says it all.
Some of Mr. Bush's stall-wart supporters should go back in time and revisit some of their posts from 3, 6, and 9 months ago. How did that work out for you?
ReplyDeleteMr. Bush reminds me of nothing so much as the bottle jockey who at midnight lets everyone know what he is going to do tomorrow. Come morning, he forgets his braggadocio. By the midnight following he has a whole new list of promises. Mr. Bush is a dry drunk; what's the excuse of his apologists?
He was going to rebuild the military. Please check the numbers.
ReplyDeleteHe was going to secure the border.
ReplyDeleteTax cuts were going to be permanent.
ReplyDeleteThe US would not permit Iran to become a nukeahlar power.
ReplyDeleteHezbollah would be disarmed.
ReplyDeleteSyria and Iran were part of the axis of evil.
ReplyDeleteYou were with the terrorists or us.
ReplyDeleteThe US would not give aid to the Palestinians.
ReplyDeleteTell me when you would like to stop. Otherwise, I can go on all night.
ReplyDeleteNo where to run and no where to hide. Think Pakistan.
ReplyDeleteThere could be a million border patrol agents, but if not allowed to actually do the job, so what?
ReplyDeleteIran IS a nuclear power, albeit a SMALL power. Even the UN admits as much.
ReplyDeleteLet's talk about North Korea, shall we?
ReplyDeleteJust this very evenng Fox ran a segment about the National Guard at the border. The Guard commander made it quite clear, they build when asked, but they DO NOT do enforcement.
ReplyDeleteThen he should have promised to TRY to get permanent tax cuts. He did not, however. Mr. Bush likes the sound of his own voice, apparently.
ReplyDeleteMr. Olmert had nothing to do with the Franco-American UNSC Resolution brokered by Madame Rice. How is that working out?
ReplyDeleteAxis of Evil
ReplyDeleteGood try but no cigar. I tire of this. By all means continue to support Mr. Bush. He needs all the help he can get.
re: Palestinian aid cuts
ReplyDeleteYou are one of those beknighted souls who believed that getting a blow-job from Monica was not sex.
re: Pakistan
ReplyDeleteYou have heard of Waziristan?
I'm beginning to feel like I'm taking candy from a baby.
ReplyDeleteI am a Jew who happens to think that both Bush and Olmert are jack-offs. Try harder, you're not hitting me yet. Jeez. Maybe this explains the losses on the 7th. No brains, no gains. Jerk it, jerk it harder.
ReplyDeleteIsrael did fight a pussy war, What you and Mr. Bush fail to understand is that the US has been doing the same thing for more than 3 years. Jerk it! Jerk it harder!
ReplyDeleteIt' still jerking off and Mr. Bush is the big jerker.
Sorry, Mr. Bush, Mr. Baker, Mr. Kissinger, Mr. Hamilton, Mr. Scowcroft, and Bush 41 are all major league wankers. Credit where credit is due.
ReplyDeleteIraq Reopens Diplomatic Relations With Syria
ReplyDeleteBy SABRINA TAVERNISE
Published: November 21, 2006
BAGHDAD, Nov. 20 — Iraq re-established diplomatic relations with Syria on Monday, agreeing to restore an embassy in Baghdad after more than 20 years with no formal avenues of communication.
The step came on the second day of a two-day visit by Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem while he met with the Iraqi prime minister, Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, in the international Green Zone here.
re: Axis of Evil
ReplyDeleteEven I have a limit as to how long I will argue with Ash about Senior Che.
Jerk it! Jerk it hard! See what you end up with.
re: Palestinian aid
ReplyDeleteYou probably don't. That would require actually looking at the backdoor. That would disallusion you. You couldn't live with that. The numbers are there, as well as the pronouncements of Dr. Rice. Oh, sorry, since the President didn't say so himself, it doesn't count. Mr. Bolton and Dr. Rice are merely chopped liver when they don't work out for you.
Waziristan is still Waziristan, i.e. a terrorist sanctuary. By the way, Mr. Bush said it, not me. If he couldn't produce, he might have considered STFU.
ReplyDeleteBack to the 2002 State of the Union, that added Syria, Hezbollah by name and a whole host of others, to be condition decided. It really was a rousing speach, if anyone is interested I'll google it and post the link. "Axis of Evil, I think it was there, I'll check. Like "Stay the Course" something Mr Bush "never" said
ReplyDeleteHe has fallen short through out.
The attempt is not enough, rufus, Mr Bush gets no points for "trying", only "doing". No points for intentions only results.
Maybe if Mr Bush or his team had "strong armmed" Lincoln Chafee, but he was to tough a nut to crack.
Fore warned is fore armed, I was once admonished. This crowd discounted the warnings and now is pissed at itself.
Rufus blames others, when it was Mr Kolbe abandoned the GOP. He blames others when Lincoln Chafee holds John Bolton's nomination hostage.
This Iraqi success story will wipe out the GOP in '08 if it is not under control in six to eight months.
Are you denying that two months ago the government of the United States did not give to the Palestinian Authority 3,000 M-16s and one million rounds of ammunition?
ReplyDeleteTo parapharse Churchill, "Tomorrow, Madame, I will be sober, but you will still be stupid."
ReplyDelete2002 State of the Union, rufus.
ReplyDeleteMr bush names the three, Iran, NorK and Iraq by name, then adds a host of others by a conditions based matrix.
States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world.
Plain as day to includes those named and unnamed terrorist sponsor States, like Syria.
But some governments will be timid in the face of terror. And make no mistake about it: If they do not act, America will.
Our second goal is to prevent regimes that sponsor terror from threatening America or our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction.
Some of these regimes have been pretty quiet since September 11, but we know their true nature. North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens.
Iran aggressively pursues these weapons and exports terror, while an unelected few repress the Iranian people's hope for freedom.
Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror. The Iraqi regime has plotted to develop anthrax and nerve gas and nuclear weapons for over a decade. This is a regime that has already used poison gas to murder thousands of its own citizens, leaving the bodies of mothers huddled over their dead children. This is a regime that agreed to international inspections then kicked out the inspectors. This is a regime that has something to hide from the civilized world.
States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic.
We will work closely with our coalition to deny terrorists and their state sponsors the materials, technology and expertise to make and deliver weapons of mass destruction.
We will develop and deploy effective missile defenses to protect America and our allies from sudden attack.
And all nations should know: America will do what is necessary to ensure our nation's security.
We'll be deliberate, yet time is not on our side. I will not wait on events while dangers gather. I will not stand by as peril draws closer and closer. The United States of America will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world's most destructive weapons.
Guns and bullets, rufus, not electricity.
ReplyDeleteGuns and bullets.
Picking Terror leaders in Palistine and Iraq to support with US largesse, that is the bite in the ass, rufus.
ReplyDeleteWe swore no suport until the Palistinians acknowledged Israel's "Right to Exist"
We blinked.
So you deny the Israeli and Us reports the Syria sponsors terrorists, rufus.
ReplyDeleteYou deny the provide Sanctuary for Sunni Insurgents from Iraq and Hezbollah in both Iraq and Lebanon?
I'll get the Rummy quotes, the Israeli quotes, the Ms Rice quotes, they are easy to find. Mr Bush set the Standard of Performance himself.
He fell short on performance while being long on rhetoric.
He said: "States "like" these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world."
LIKE is the operative word, as is Terrorist allies. Mr Bush spun a mighty big catch rope.
I'll hold him to it, even if you do not, rufus.
But he is not the Government of Palistine. That is the rub, rufus.
ReplyDeleteHe is just another Warlord with a title. Hamas won the Election, Mr Abbas was not on the ballot. He cannot pass a Resolution acknowledging Iraraels right to exist from the Palistinian Parliment. If he could maybe he would. But he's really just another Warlord, with style.
2164...Immediately after posting my exposition of how we arrived at this point in time I thought. Faced with this 2164 will blow it off as irrelevent, which of course is not an argument. So lets review some things that might, in your world seem relevent. You said:
ReplyDelete"George Bush bet his administration on the gamble in Iraq. He chose a risky strategy over the advise of allies, friends, enemies and advisors. The war has turned out to be a strategic error of the first magnitude. The hope was right but the tactics were wrong."
A gamble? And then you turn around and say my argument is irrelevent? You need to go back and re-read how we got to this point and how it wasn't a "gamble" unless you are going to wholly discount all of the intelligence at the time.
"He chose a risky strategy"
Cite for me all of the ney sayers at that time that considered going into Iraq a risky strategy in the face of the aforementioned intelligence? Had he not gone in and Israel was now a memory you'd be bitch'in up a different tune.
Citing Syria,Hamas, and al jeez don't count.
"The Bush Administration has lost the faith of most of the natural allies of The United States. A world with diminished respect for the US is a much more dangerous place."
Once again,we went an endless number of times to the UN, and garnered the backing,and in the end of the endorsement for SecState Powell to read and show intel on WMD's. The internal politics of Germany,France, and Britain have more to do with there diminished support than anything W has done.
Even now the French,English and Dutch are gaining backbone to control the cancer of Islam.
"The President has failed in the one way that matters most. He has failed to lead."
Hogwash. You may not agree with the current situation but that's IS irrelevent to his leadership. he has never backed away from accepting responsibility for his administration.
Your original premise is lousy, your ignorance of the facts on how we arrived at this point are neon in there brilliance and you seem to have forgotten entirely that this entire endeavor was thrust upon him by 9-11.
Bone up some on how points in time develop, this one in particular. I think you've embarassed youself, by running to the front of the parade, baton in hand, proclaiming you knew better all the time ..you and a bunch of other fair weather "patriots" who with perfect hindsight gitty-up with the windblown trendoids.
and DR...it's very difficult to fail on performance when the game is still in play and the outcome is in doubt..unless we follow your cut and run policy.
ReplyDeleteYou might do well to reflect on
Bill Mazeroski's Walkoff Home Run that won the 1960 World Series on October 14 1960. This after the NY Yankees had set a dozen plus world series records.
Or you might relect on what George G. meade did to Robert E. Lee at Gettysburg only months after what is described by historians as one of the most brilliant tactical battles in history at Chacellorsville won by Lee...
or you can cut and run
rufus said:
ReplyDelete> 2164th said:
I usually only require a nap after having done something to further world peace.
THAT'S the answer, Deuce, We gotta find you a nice girl.
That's world peace, not world PIECE.
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
ReplyDeleteThat he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
Wm Shakespeare, Henry V
"These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their county; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny like hell is not easily conquered yet we have this consolation with us, the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value." -- Tom Paine after the Declaration of Independence
ReplyDelete2164...I do think this thread has a brilliance to it.
ReplyDeleteIf you had asked a mundane question, one with no chance to roil the passions of men and women then it would no doubt pancake.
By offering what you must have known would be a barn burner you got the elevated BP and the adrenaline of a bunch of old war horses work'in overtime.
We're not gonna settle this. Congress,Bush, and the other players will. We at least owe them, while our troops are fighting and dying, some measure of confidence. Or we can return to 1968.
We ought get back to the words of Mr Bush and his Staff and leave Mr Paine to rabble rouse the peoples of a not yet born Republic.
ReplyDeleteBetter yet, translate him into Arabic. Bet that has not been done, our best pamphleteer left on the sidelines. Along with Mr Madison and the Federalist papers.
But worry not, becasue the Democracy Project is but a sham, a way for the habu clique to obtain a target list. I do not dismiss the Project so lightly, that in it's ashes, I can so easily discount it. And ashes it is in, in both Lebanon and Iraq.
Wait and watch. We'll smake a Mohammed in Anbar and proclaim Victory, at least enough to start the withdrawal. Or not and the GOP is back to the backbench of government for another 50 years.
Or wait for that preemptive strike against Iran. I'll wait with you, I'm younger by almost a decade, maybe I'll get to see it.
Or better yet, let US wait for the Congress to Declare War on Iran.
Let's run that up the pole, see who salutes. It will not be the Religion of Peace team, mark my words.
Yes, Gettysberg, where Mr Lee would not discount the losses of the previous day, sending General Pickett and the South to sure defeat. Because he would not "cut and run" like Chesty at the Chosin. Mr Lee would not abandon the field and advance to DC.
ReplyDeleteAn error, to be sure.
President Bush has not shone the type of decision-making implied in the presented scenarios. It is highly unlikely this will occur, especially with threats of purse tightening from the Dems.
ReplyDeleteI’m afraid we’ll have two years of wasted time, while the enemy gets stronger.
Damn! I sure hope I’m wrong!
Though himself "a pious deist," in The Age of Reason Paine reflected the atheistic feeling that had swept France during these revolutionary times; The Age of Reason became known as the "Atheist's bible." On returning to America in 1802, Paine found himself, directly on account The Age of Reason, out of favour, ostracized by political leaders and churchgoers. After seven incredible years of abuse, hatred, neglect, poverty, and ill health, Paine died in 1809, at the age of 72; and was denied burial in a Quaker cemetery.
ReplyDeletetiger said:
ReplyDeleteI’m afraid we’ll have two years of wasted time, while the enemy gets stronger.
Ironically, it's the fact that the enemy is so weak and resorts to guerrilla tactics that gives our forces such a hard time. Would that the enemy was strong and had a 90 MiG air force, for example, or 400 T-72 tanks and a strong general to field them.
DR
ReplyDeleteIt's a damn good guess you never had to inspire men to exceed what they thought were their limits.
You entreaty to ignore the words of Thomas Paine are a natural for you given your choice to ignore facts and instead go for the capillary with smarmy cynacism.
That is the hallmark of the best cut and runners though and you are setting daily records in that department.
Do you blow with just any wind or do you stand for something?
Did you guys cut allen off?
ReplyDeleteHe seems to think so.
It's what he wrote, elsewhere in the EB-BC world
rufus said:
ReplyDeleteIn as much as Assad is the only conceivable hope for any kind of peace in Gaza, we gave his security force the M-16's and ammo ostensibly for protection from the Hamas "Crazies."
Okay, but the next time a Fatah gunman takes out everyone inside a Jerusalem pizzaria, it better not be with an M-16.
Yeah, I stand for cutting through the BS.
ReplyDeleteI stand for making good decisions at the right times.
I stand with Mr Paine when the public dumped on him.
I stand for walkin' the talk or being quiet.
But I have not led folk in a long time, I will not act as a unpaid tax collection service for the government.
But call me when the preemptive attacks begin, against anyone, anywhere.
In Warizistan, Somolia, Sudan, Syria, Lebanon or even Iran.
Rally to the President, habu, get on board the Religion of Peace Train and booghie down.
You and Dr K, you'll both be back in saddle again, like back in the 'Nam.
2164...Immediately after posting my exposition of how we arrived at this point in time I thought. Faced with this 2164 will blow it off as irrelevent, which of course is not an argument. So lets review some things that might, in your world seem relevent. You said:
ReplyDelete"George Bush bet his administration on the gamble in Iraq. He chose a risky strategy over the advise of allies, friends, enemies and advisors. The war has turned out to be a strategic error of the first magnitude. The hope was right but the tactics were wrong."
A gamble? And then you turn around and say my argument is irrelevent? You need to go back and re-read how we got to this point and how it wasn't a "gamble" unless you are going to wholly discount all of the intelligence at the time.
✣ ✣ ✣
I do not fault him for going with the intelligence he had. If he were an artillery man and was given bad coordinates. No problem. But once he found out they were wrong he has to adjust.
✣ ✣ ✣
"He chose a risky strategy"
Cite for me all of the ney sayers at that time that considered going into Iraq a risky strategy in the face of the aforementioned intelligence? Had he not gone in and Israel was now a memory you'd be bitch'in up a different tune.
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He did not cite Israel as a reason. He did it for WMD. He had call to go after Sadaam. No problem there. Firing the army was stupid and allowing the country to be ransaacked was stupid. It is not my problem if the one Islamic group wants to kill another. Iask you the question who do you want to win The sunnis or the Iranian choice? Pick a side and tell me which one we should fight and die for. I would rather we sided for order. Pick some young ambitious ruthless Iraqi colonel and give him the resources and backing to restore order. Not the nonsense where 40% of our casualties are from doing street patrols that should be done by Iraqis. Everyone of those patrols that get hit are done so with the knowledge of local people. that knowledge and lack of notice should be punished but it is not.
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Citing Syria,Hamas, and al jeez don't count.
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Are you saying that I am a flack for Syria, hamas and al jjez?
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"The Bush Administration has lost the faith of most of the natural allies of The United States. A world with diminished respect for the US is a much more dangerous place."
Once again,we went an endless number of times to the UN, and garnered the backing,and in the end of the endorsement for SecState Powell to read and show intel on WMD's. The internal politics of Germany,France, and Britain have more to do with there diminished support than anything W has done.
Even now the French,English and Dutch are gaining backbone to control the cancer of Islam.
"The President has failed in the one way that matters most. He has failed to lead."
Hogwash. You may not agree with the current situation but that's IS irrelevent to his leadership. he has never backed away from accepting responsibility for his administration.
Your original premise is lousy, your ignorance of the facts on how we arrived at this point are neon in there brilliance and you seem to have forgotten entirely that this entire endeavor was thrust upon him by 9-11.
Bone up some on how points in time develop, this one in particular. I think you've embarassed youself, by running to the front of the parade, baton in hand, proclaiming you knew better all the time ..you and a bunch of other fair weather "patriots" who with perfect hindsight gitty-up with the windblown trendoids.
To be obtuse and a cynic is not easily achieved but the ease with which you slither into the role makes you a unique Bahgdad Bob prop. Your sciolism gives our enemies a sigh of relief knowing you are so easily mislead.
ReplyDeleteBy your youth you are too young to understand the daily criticism LBJ endured while personally directing the war.
Now our Commander in Chief allows his military, the professionals at war and it's execution, to decide how to prosecute it and you caterwaul about defeat while the game is still on. were he pulling an LBJ you'd be doing the same thing.
Are you frustrated with life,feeling abandonment,remorse?
Cheer up lad we'll prevail, but obviously without your encouragement or support.
Dr,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that how Thomas Paine died is germane to the value he was to two countries seeking independence.
George Washington readily acknowledged how powerful "Common Sense" was in turning Royalists into revolutionaries.
His contributions to the French Revolution and their voicing of the Rights Of Man are also acknowledged as a powerful force.
Dr.
ReplyDeleteIn the Nam we beat the NVA to hell and back..it was people like you back home that undermined the war by giving comfort to the enemy.
General Giap and Uncle Ho both admitted they were ready to capitulate, knowing they were beaten and broke, UNTIL the anti war movement gave them the added courage to continue.
Just like your doing now, encouraging the enemy.
He has my support habu.
ReplyDeleteHe is doing little so the level of support appropriate. If more is done, I'll support him more.
But as I see less being done, I'll support him less.
You can dream of preemptive strikes, while wait for your decision of whom to support in Iraq.
The Sunni Insurgents or the Iranian Frontmen. Mr Bush sides with the Iranian frontmen, should we list you there as well?
At least for tomorrow. You can shift alliances each day, just tell US first, please. Don't want to shoot a friend today that was an enemy yesterday.
Rufus,
ReplyDeleteProbably the greatest speech ever given,anywhere by anybody.
The Bush Administration has lost the faith of most of the natural allies of The United States. A world with diminished respect for the US is a much more dangerous place."
ReplyDeleteOnce again,we went an endless number of times to the UN, and garnered the backing,and in the end of the endorsement for SecState Powell to read and show intel on WMD's. The internal politics of Germany,France, and Britain have more to do with there diminished support than anything W has done.
Even now the French,English and Dutch are gaining backbone to control the cancer of Islam.
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If you think, Bush has been a wise steward of long developed alliances, that is your privliage.
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"The President has failed in the one way that matters most. He has failed to lead."
Hogwash. You may not agree with the current situation but that's IS irrelevent to his leadership. he has never backed away from accepting responsibility for his administration.
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?
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Your original premise is lousy, your ignorance of the facts on how we arrived at this point are neon in there brilliance and you seem to have forgotten entirely that this entire endeavor was thrust upon him by 9-11.
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9-11 did not drag us into Iraq. Getting into Iraq has not improved our security nor has it strengthened our alliances. It has diminished the ability of our armed forces and the respect for the US. My ignorance noticed that Iran seems to have improved its stature. Syria sponsored a resurgent Hezbollah and not one Arab country is supplying troops for the Iraqi venture. Seems to me that Syria and France both supported Gulf 1 with troops.
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Bone up some on how points in time develop, this one in particular. I think you've embarassed youself, by running to the front of the parade, baton in hand, proclaiming you knew better all the time ..you and a bunch of other fair weather "patriots" who with perfect hindsight gitty-up with the windblown trendoids.
✣ ✣ ✣.
the bones I have are the ones I made. Iv'e worn out a few pair of boots in real parades. I never carried a baton, mine was an M1. fair weather patriot? I never avoided military service. I know what green incoming and red outgoing looks like from seeing it. I know what stupid leadership can do to real live troops. i know that any man my age that wanted to go to Viet Nam could have. Any fighter pilot that wanted to fly there could have. Any national guardsman that wanted to go there could have. Any student deferred who wanted to waive the deferrment could have. And I know a lot of "would of's" who didnt. That includes most of the flag waivers in this administration.They had their reasons. I prefer fair weather but when the shit was handed out I was there. Were you?
And then his Countrymen, Washington's people turn their collective backs on him, when he was down and out.
ReplyDeleteTypical.
Reality and rhetoric, the Common Sense of the Revolution abandon by a fickle public.
So your support DR is like standing feet firmly placed in a position to run far run fast, not firmly placed to stand ground when the times get tough.
ReplyDeleteSometimes you must grind the grist in the mill no matter what the cost and no matter how long it takes.
You know those who were referred to as the "Son's of Liberty" would have been good companion for you given that they sat in taverns and talked the talk but never went to the protracted war of our revolution.
DR..your 10:27 has no proof in all of our history. The people of this country knew George Washington was an extraordinary man.
ReplyDeleteEven King George said,when he found that Washington had eschewed becoming a king said of him that he must be one of the finest men to have ever lived.
"Getting into Iraq has not improved our security nor has it strengthened our alliances."
ReplyDeleteYes, it has. It has given the US invaluable perspective and perception as it regards its allies and alliances. Turkey, Spain, Germany, France, Canada, all bugged out when the US came asking for assistance. So much for NATO alliance.
That is in reference to the 9:28 habu, it was not Mr Washington but Mr Paine that was abandon by the people he so well served, according to your take of Mr Washington's feelings towards him.
ReplyDeleteThe object lesson is that the people of the US are a fickle bunch, were so then, still are.
Does not take many mistakes and they walk on you. It is a cut and run society.
Just ask OJ
ReplyDelete"If you think, Bush has been a wise steward of long developed alliances, that is your privliage."
ReplyDeleteI don't need your permission to acknowledge my privlidge, it's a birthright in this country. My facts speak for themselves.
"9-11 did not drag us into Iraq"
Only slightly delusional. Once again the facts presented show that Iraq was considered a immediate threat. You don't ignore that after a 9-11. If you do and they hit you, you would be saying, but golly he had all this intelligence , whata doof.
I prefer fair weather but when the shit was handed out I was there. Were you?
As a matter of fact yes. And Cambodia and Laos all without the cover of the Geneva Convention since I was undercover and a spy.
The duty was voluntary and the bonus was that at times I got to kill the enemy.
Creative Destruction I believe the economists call it.
ReplyDeleteThe essence of the US System, no?
I don't mind a r little rough and tumble. This place is for everyone to say what they believe and argue their case. This is no place for the timid. Right habu?
ReplyDeleteMətušélaḥ,
ReplyDeleteGreat point. It is invaluable to know who stands with you when the going gets tough.
As Tony Blair said in his speech to a joint Congress.
"Why America, why now?
" Because God has placed you in this time and place and only you can do the job"
Islam is not going to quit, but it looks as though we could use some citizens made of sterner stuff.
I'll arm wrestle you to see who buys a round.
ReplyDelete2164...I do agree. And I must confess that I have way too great a tendency to the personal attack than is necessary.
ReplyDeleteThings always get said that should have required a more noble discourse.
This forum is the finest going BECAUSE we each say what we mean and mean what we say (above apologia excepted)
There's diplomacy 90% of the time, PC about 2% of the time and informed articulate people all over the place.
This forum is a victory for free speech and we all love it.
In the morning I'll post my favorite angel food cake recipe.
ReplyDelete2164th wrote:
ReplyDeleteI don't mind a r little rough and tumble. This place is for everyone to say what they believe and argue their case. This is no place for the timid. Right habu?
He's busy taking the training wheels off his sports car.
Gentlemen,
ReplyDeletei suggest tomorrow we discuss the virtue of raising grapes for good wine.
For now it's off to bed since I was into thrust and parry with DR, until 3AM last night.
Good dreams, noble fellows.
Whit, I agree. A little perspective and a calm spirit is in order.
ReplyDeletewhit wrote:
ReplyDeleteInstead of posing in those pajamas with Vlad Putin, the poisoner, he should have been making a damn decision.
You got to admire the KGB though; at least they're out there doing real spy vs. spy stuff rather than dicking around with leaks and trying to bring down the President.
This crap about waiting to hear from the Generals is ridiculous.
Isn't that what you do right after learning of a military coup'd etat? Wait to hear from the Generals?
Rufus,
ReplyDeleteNothing high tech. It's 30 year technology used in a straight conversion to heat energy. Solar panels are used to heat water stored in barrels on the roof. Back then, it was decided this would be the most efficient to use of the technology.
Obscured By Clouds
ReplyDeleteHeaven send the promised land
Looks all right from where I stand
'cause I'm the man on the outside looking in
Waiting on the first step
Show me where the key is kept
Point me down the right line
Because it's time
to let me in from the cold
Turn my lead into gold
'cause there's a chill wind blowin' in my soul
and I think I'm growing old
Flash the readies
Wot's... uh the deal?
Got to make it to the next meal
Try to keep up with the turning of the wheel
Mile after mile, stone after stone
You turn to speak, but you're alone
Million miles from home, you're on your own
So let me in from the cold
Turn my lead into gold
'cause there's a chill wind blowin' in my soul
and I think I'm growing old
Fire bright by candle light and her by my side
Or if she prefers, we never stir again
Someone sent the promised land
and I grabbed it with both hands
Now I'm the man on the inside looking out
Hear me shout:
Come on in. What's the news? Where you been?
'Cause there's no wind left in my soul
and I've grown old
Btw, that was dedicated to old Europe. :D
ReplyDeleteThat'll get 'em about thirty days, not nearly enough.
ReplyDeleteThe boys have to put the hammer down in a big way, or figure a way out. Or both.
As to the EB and BC being ahead of the curve, usually by a couple of days, on breaking news, longer on stuff like the Air Bus story, almost two weeks, as I recall.
On the "directional" memes sometimes a month, before the herd caught up.
You see that the open minded of the "true believers" are tasting some doubt.
It is an unfamilar flavor to most of them.
The Politics will play out, but the Military has to show substanial progress in providing some real Security or the caldrun will boil over, here at home.
Mətušélaḥ said...
ReplyDeleteObscured By Clouds
You are the angel of death
And I am the dead man's son.
And he was buried like a mole in a fox hole.
And everyone is still on the run.
Yep, another Socialist concern, there in Indodesia.
ReplyDeleteIt'll be full of payola and fraud
The country plans to invest a massive Rupee 200 trillion (€17.3 bn / US$22 bn) over the next five years to promote the use of alternative fuels using crops such as palm oil, cassava, jatropha and sugar cane for the production of biodiesel and ethanol Energy Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro said.
About $6 billion will be spent securing 6 million hectares (14.8 million acres) of land, in an as-yet-unspecified location, ..."
Senator Reid, Congressman Hastert will lead the way. About $500 USD per acre for Indonesia scrub land.
" ... and the rest will fund factories, roads and other supporting services, he said.
Central planning of bio fuels will lead to large scale failure. It alway does in other endevours, bio fuel just increased the opportunities for mismanagement.
The 200-page report says Australia should easily reach the federal government's production target of 350 million litres of ethanol and biodiesel by 2010, but faces rising costs and limited supplies of major feedstocks.
ReplyDeleteReport co-author and EnergyQuest chief executive Graeme Bethune said biofuel production capacity is likely to exceed 640 million litres a year by the end of 2007 and could reach 2,400 million litres by 2010.
Needs More Support
Thanks for the link, Rufus. Man, reading that article, this ethanol thing is really taking off.
ReplyDeleteBush resigns and atones for his constant lying wrt his "efforts" to curb illegal immigration and secure the border by coming clean, taking full responsibility for the feckless rudderlessness of his foreign "policy," resuscitating the reputation of President Cheney by admitting that he ignored the advice of those older and wiser than he, namely Richard Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, needlessly sacrificing some of our best and brightest by taking the advice of State Dept and others instead, leaving Syria and Iran unmolested in spite of their constant contributions to the chaos and destruction in Iraq.
ReplyDeleteCheney promptly makes up for lost time by calling on Rumsfeld to stay for the Duration, and they begin their retaliatory/preventive aerial punishment of previously untouched bases and supplies in these two sanctuaries of evil.
Rumsfeld makes up for his dangerous and provocative penny pinching ways by immediately begining a buildup of the size of all the services, replenishment of weapons and material, and relief and replenishment of the Gaurd and Reserves.
Special emergency orders are enacted requiring all schools and colleges receiving Federal aid to offer ROTC and JROTC, and providing year-round campus access for recruiters.
In spite of the additional expenses involved, overall spending is reduced by elimination of the prescription drug benefit and all Federal aid to illegal aliens. No child left behind is eliminated along with the Federal Dept of Education, and all school districts are ordered to provide vouchers to all parents requesting them.
Criminal aliens are immediately sent to massive new tent cities/prisons in the desert run by Sheriff Joe Arpaio, and overcrowded jails and prisons are relieved by transferring all illegal's previously locked up in them to Joe's labor camps in the desert.
Sheriff Joe is tasked with providing plans and manpower for the National Guard to begin construction on the Border Fence ASAP.
Immigrant laborers performing meritoriously on the fence project will be rewarded with lavish vacations at W's ranch in Waco, catered by the staffs and Senators who voted for amnesty, and GWB is required to sleep under the stands at Ranger Stadium until construction of the fence is completed.
Mel Martinez is sent South as permanent ambassador to Tijuana, and Tom Tancredo is appointed head of the RNC.
The GWOT is wrapped up, and all mosques are closed prior to Cheney leaving office, as are CAIR and the ACLU.
Karen Hughes is sentenced to a re-education stint at the direction of Sheriff Joe.
World Peace Reigns, and the Orgasm for peace is made a permanent yearly event so that Rumsfeld and Cheney will always be remembered and honored by Straight Shooters across the fruited plains.
General Shinseki is brought out of retirement and tasked with providing special forces in the fence brigades with Berets and Hula Skirts.
ReplyDeleteRat:
ReplyDeleteFederally produced Palm is a...
SLAM DUNK!
I'll take my Medal of Freedom now, thank you!
Maybe W's last act before leaving office should be a Medal of Freedom for Janet Reno for cleaning up things in his immediate neighborhood.
ReplyDeleteGotta keep tabs on them Religious Extremists.
Survivors of Waco sentenced to re-education by Karen Hughes.
Th th, th, thank you, Mr. President!
ReplyDeleteDamn you Fox!
You spiked my Iced Tea!
Sam said,
ReplyDelete"Thanks for the link, Rufus. Man, reading that article, this ethanol thing is really taking off. "
---
Rufus's Ethanol thang has already reached escape velocity.
Headline:
ReplyDeleteGlobal Warming Solved!
CO2 displaced into Space by Ethanol Fumes and Bud Farts.
"Or wait for that preemptive strike against Iran. I'll wait with you, I'm younger by almost a decade, maybe I'll get to see it."
ReplyDelete---
UNFAIR!
This "man" is not a Veteran of the Summer of Love and the Decade of Chemical Re-education!
What right does he have to raise his voice in this August Forum?
(Unless perhaps he's a victim of that Fox Overmedication Syndrome, or a Survior of the Victims of 9-11.)
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete"In the Nam we beat the NVA to hell and back..it was people like you back home that undermined the war by giving comfort to the enemy.
ReplyDelete"
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I've got a Video of DR doing the Maccarenna in Diapers with a picture of Ho Che Kimchi on them posted on YouTube.
Just search for: "Maccarenna Kimchi"
"I do not fault him for going with the intelligence he had. If he were an artillery man and was given bad coordinates. No problem.
ReplyDeleteBut once he found out they were wrong he has to adjust. "
Amen, and good night, brothers and Sister:
As Randy Shilts Wrote:
"And the Band Played On"
" Shilts was controversial among more radical members of the movement, some of whom labeled him a "gay Uncle Tom."
ReplyDeleteIn the mid-1980s, his stories "suggesting" (well documented by Dave Horowitiz citing health experts... but Jim Jones and Pelosi's Democrat Mafia in SF were well covered (up) by the local MSM and local locos.) that gay bathhouses in San Francisco were breeding grounds for AIDS made him a pariah, unable to walk through the city's Castro District without being jeered or spat upon.
When "And the Band Played On" came out, he was attacked for charging that gay groups initially pretended that AIDS did not exist. More recently, he was faulted for opposing the "outing" of prominent, closeted gays, including two four-star generals he described anonymously in "Conduct Unbecoming."
Shilts was hurt by such barbs, but refused to alter his message or obscure the truth to win friends.
"
""I can only answer that I tried to tell the truth and, if not be objective, at least be fair; history is not served when reporters prize trepidation and propriety over the robust journalistic duty to tell the whole story." "
ReplyDelete---
Thanks, DR, and Trish, for your contributions amidst the din of hero worship.
(link to Jerry Ford's accomplishment to be posted tomorrow to compare to present day "leaders.")
"Shilts learned he was infected with HIV the day he wrote the final page of
ReplyDelete"And the Band Played On" in March, 1987.
He had allowed his doctor to test him a year earlier, but asked not to be told the result, fearing it might influence his reporting.
He did not disclose his condition publicly until last year."
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If only our "leader" had a similar devotion to the truth!
Doug,
ReplyDeletewhy you've turned into a pussy.
bush lied?
all men lie
you just did about six rants, all lies.
Habu:
ReplyDeleteNot all lies create serious threats to our National Security and future prosperity, as are W's wrt to his pathetic "efforts" to secure the border, stop the flow of criminals by the 10's of thousands and occasional terrorist infiltrators.
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Exit plan benchmarks
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President Bush's monumental blunders in post-Saddam Iraq have left no thrilling exit strategies. The idea of a unified, democratic, stable and nonsectarian Iraq is fatuous. An exit plan should be more earthbound. Its benchmarks should be fourfold: The United States should not appear to have been defeated by the terrorist insurgency; a civil war in Iraq should be averted; Iran should not be left to dominate the region; and U.S. troops should be withdrawn within 12 months.
Setting a fixed timetable for American troop withdrawals without more would be clearly deficient. Islamic fanatics would be seen to have defeated the "Great Satan" and recruitment into terrorist ranks would soar. Remember the enormous boost to al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden when the Islamic resistance in Afghanistan (supported by the United States) was seen to have triumphed over the then-superpower Soviet Union. The result was the rise of Taliban, and ultimately the terrorist attacks on America of September 11, 2001.
In addition, a troop withdrawal, simpliciter, guarantees a murderous civil war between Sunnis, Shi'ites, and Kurds...